Do motorsailers heel?

[TK1]

Hi,

OK, possibly stupid question. In the absence of owning/building a boat, I spend lots of time reading 'Classic Boat' and 'Wooden Boat' and all sorts of other things to buoild my knowledge before I take the plunge.

Whilst looking at the 'for sale' ads in one of the above recently, and lamenting on my lack of millions of pounds (as in the money) to buy these boats, a thougth struck me.

Motor Sailers often have decent rigs and are certainly made to be sailed along, although most often it seems as a nice change from running on engines than as a primary means of propulsion.

That said, when a yacht zips along, it will heel over at quite an angle - I've raced along Sydney Harbour in yachts with the lee deck dipping in the water. But I get the impression motor sailers aren't designed to be sailed so close to the wind (?) or at such speeds. Therefore, do they heel over as much, or traditionally sail along largely upright? And I suspect with a substantial engine and some ballast, wouldn't have the capacity as either not as deep a keel or a heavy keel lowering the centre of gravity.

I hope this makes sense....less scary asking here than on the boat design or wb forums as I'll expect some abuse :D but may find a serious answer in there somewhere!

Thanks,
Darren

[bitingmidge]

Do Motor Sailers Heel??

Only if they've been properly trained on a leash first.

Cheers,

P
:D :D

[bitingmidge]

OK.

As long as there is wind in its sail, a boat will be subjected to heeling forces.

A motor sailing catamaran will not heel noticably.

All other variants will to greater or lesser degrees, depending on the amount of ballast, the amount of wind and the amount of sail area.

Motor sailers, are often compromise boats that don't do either particularly well, the ones that are more sailing oriented usually have higher topsides and enclosed doghouses, which give the feeling that one is further from the water than on a "proper" sailbot. On the other hand boats that are motor oriented can have only small "steadying" sails, designed to lessen the amount of roll rather than produce motion in other than a directly downwind direction.

Get one of each!

Cheers,

P

[TK1]

Only if they've been properly trained on a leash first.

See, I knew I'd get a serious answer here :D

Thanks Midge for the more serious answer too...I recall now hearing somewhere that 'all boats are compromises' - probably more so in the case of a motorsailer?

I guess that from what I've seen, those that get a motor sailer often want a sailboat, but with the luxuries of a motor yacht and in csome cases 'pretend' to sail.

I'll go with your suggestion...and get one of each :D SWMBO wants a catamaran - and a decent one, like a Seawind 1160 - which I fully support but maybe we'll convince her of a nice classic yacht or schooner, and then I can have a motor yacht to cruise around in. :)

Hopefully, lives and money allowing, in one way or another I'll get to circumnavigate Australia in something - that's the long-term plan and so partly the reaosn for asking about motorsailers.

Thanks,
Darren

[Daddles]

SeeHopefully, lives and money allowing, in one way or another I'll get to circumnavigate Australia in something -

If you are serious about circumnavigating Oz, I've got just the boat for you. Redback. At 7'3" she's not only roomless but every television station in the country will be throwing money at you for the story :D

Richard

[bitingmidge]

Darren,

The Seawind under auxiliary power will out perform a monohull power cruiser, or motorsailer under power by every measure; speed, economy and comfort.

Bright woman your missus!

Just don't get me started on why you really need a multihull ok?

Cheers,

P

[TK1]

Daddles, thanks for the offer...I'd feel a bit Matthew Flinders sailing around the coast in Redback methinks! Would certainly be an achievement, doing a lap of Oz in a 7' boat...but I think the wife and 2 kids would feel a bit cramped :)

How about you go, and I'll be the support ship in a 100' motor yacht? :D I'll pass you a cold beer and a bowl of nuts at 5pm each day.

Midge, have no fear, a Seawind or similar is currently at the top of the list for doing a lap of the country. Feel free to get started on why I need a multihull - I probably agree! And when we checked out boats at the Melb boat show, the cat was a clear winner in value for money vs anything else there of comparable size.

It's just I'd like a nice (reasonably sized) classic wooden boat for floating around the harbour in...is it wrong to want a fleet of boats?? :D

Regards,
Darren

[Auld Bassoon]

Gentlemen do not sail to weather! :D

Most motor sailers can't really get higher than around 40o to the wind, so whilst they do heel, it's not as radical as a racing fin keeler.

I do recall getting one 74' ketch rigged boat's lee rail well in though :D :D (horrified the owner) :D :D :D

[graemet]

If you are serious about circumnavigating Oz, I've got just the boat for you. Redback. At 7'3" she's not only roomless but every television station in the country will be throwing money at you for the story :D

Richard
To read about something REALLY stupid, get hold of "April Fool" written by a yank who crossed the Atlantic in a 6' boat, single handed. Dunno how he even carried enough drinking water!
Cheers
Graeme

[TK1]

Hi,

OK, answers seem to satisfy my question - yes they do (a bit), just that generally one wouldn't do it (might spill the glass of chardy):D

And have no fear, I'll not be getting one (unlss a free one turns up!) and will stick with motor launches, proper sailboats and then a big cat for taking the missus round the continent.

Thanks all for the replies and indulging my ignorance ;)

Regards,
Darren

[Boatmik]

Motor sailers, are often compromise boats that don't do either particularly well, the ones that are more sailing oriented usually have higher topsides and enclosed doghouses, which give the feeling that one is further from the water than on a "proper" sailbot. On the other hand boats that are motor oriented can have only small "steadying" sails, designed to lessen the amount of roll rather than produce motion in other than a directly downwind direction.

Hear, Hear

Midge is on the money. Conventional motorsailors can't sail very well at all.

In fact the sails never end up being used because they are only big enough to propel the boat in strong winds - and those are exactly the conditions that you don't want to be sailing in.

The advantage of course is that your sails will last a long time.

There are more modern varieties of motor sailor which use a lighter, longer hull to get excellent sailing performance and excellent motoring performance - but these are still a little bit rare in the smaller sizes.

One of the first were the Dashew Sundeer type. Big boats - but defined the type very nicely - 12 knot averages sailing or power - but I think the smallest they do is about 55ft!!!!!

Often a cat is a good compromise in this regard as they are available in all sizes. A couple of 9.9 high thrust outboards will push a 32ft cat at close to 10 knots (er modern hullform cat - I don't think a Wharram would be happy at those speeds or powerings)

And don't be scammed by anyone talking about "planing motoryachts" they are poor compromises.

BTW - it is a very common thing to quote "all boats are a compromise". It is sorta true - but a good designer will get you most of what you want in a boat - so there is such a thing as a positive compromise where each feature fits in and reinforces other features.

MIK

[TK1]

Thanks Mik,

I think I'll stick to the cat for a large cruiser when finances allow - it's the "10 year plan". We (the missus & I) looked at some 28' - 40' sailboats and she was impressed, but as soon as the Seawind salesman said "you can sail all the way to the Whitsundays and your glass of chardy won't slide off the table" she was sold. :D And I heartily agreed. They do offer everything we want in a cruiser.

The only downside its, there's no chance I'll be building one in the garage. So I'll stick to looking at trailerable motor lanches and runabouts.

On motorsailers (almost hijacked my own thread) you are right, I don't think I've seen them with the sails up very often - seem to be more for show than actual sailing, partly hence my initial question...if they were sailing effectively then I wondered why I hadn't seen any pics of them heeling and racing along.

Thanks again,
Darren

[Daddles]

The only downside its, there's no chance I'll be building one in the garage. So I'll stick to looking at trailerable motor lanches and runabouts.


Ahh, but Redback is already built and she'll stand on end in less room than your average mother in law takes up ;)

Richard

well, why can't I encourage him to do something so stoopid not even I'd try it:rolleyes:

[onthebeachalone]

How would the missus like this one?
http://www.maritimemuseum.com.au/images/Happy%20II.JPG
Allegedly the smallest boat to sail across the Pacific (about 6ft6in from memory)

Oops! Sorry, not wood.

[bitingmidge]

http://www.famoussmallboats.com/

Yep! Wayne Smith set out in "Happy", a 12 footer, but must have got tired of all the cleaning in a boat that size.


After sailing 10,000 miles from Miami, through the Panama canal, and across the Pacific, Wayne was wrecked on a reef off Noumea, New Caledonia in November, 1982. Undeterred he built the aluminum (9') Happy II there, and he continued on with his circumnavigation until it ended in Australia.

Of course Eric Humphreys (http://www.captainhumphreys.com) is planning a circumnavigation in an eleven footer eventually, and then there's Captain Nemesis planning a non-stopper in an eight footer too...

See, you don't need to have a big boat, you only need to be very small.

cheers,

P

[Auld Bassoon]

OTBA,

I love that little (big, actually) arrow which shows which way it's (supposed!) to go :D :D

Anyone taking to blue waters, or any waters come to that, in that, er, "craft", must have been at the catnip Big Time :D

[bitingmidge]

Look, I know this is a complete hijack (well it's not complete yet) but Captain Nemesis, whose mum called him Kristofer Harlson, but whose mates call him Harley, (apparently) is going to float round the globe in this:

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/outings/dream/index.htm
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/outings/id-album/index.htm

This is a real Catch 22 boat, in order to build an 8foot long seaworthy vessel capable of safely circumnavigating you have to be completely sane, however in order to get in the thing and start sailing it round the world, well you'd have to be certified insane.

Cheers,

P;)

[jmk89]

And don't forget Jack de Crow - the Mirror dinghy that was sailed from the middle of England all the way to the Black Sea (using rivers and canals not going around via Gibraltar. It's a good read...

[onthebeachalone]

As Crocdile Dundee said, "Nah, that's not a knife, THIS is a KNIFE!"

This is getting like a bunch of blokes capping fishing stories. I wonder how Darren feels about his original question. Have we answered it yet?

Here's my favourite - Howard Blackburn http://www.capeannhistoricalmuseum.org/fisheries/blackburn.htm I read the book years ago and it blew me away.


A winter storm came up suddenly, stranding Blackburn and another fisherman in their dory. Blackburn lost his heavy fisherman’s mittens overboard and knew that his hands would freeze, so he held them in curved position that would allow him to slip his frozen hands back over the oars. Five days later -- days virtually without food, water or sleep -- Blackburn had rowed back to shore.

[TK1]

This is getting like a bunch of blokes capping fishing stories. I wonder how Darren feels about his original question. Have we answered it yet?

No fear, OTBA, I'm honoured to have my thread hijacked. :D Original question was answered, and responses helped confirm that I didn't want a motorsailer.

Mind you, some of these guys seem to have the right idea...there's a lot to be said for an 8' boat where the wife and kids WON'T fit! :D :D Would certainly be a quiet cruise. And I have been inspired by the guys in "Keep Australia on your left" in which two guys paddle their kayaks out from Bondi beach, turn left and keep going until they get to Bondi again (the title apparently being their main navigational help).

But, a bit hard to act the captain and pace the quarterdeck when even the main deck is too small to stand up on...so I think I'll stick to my plans of getting something bigger.

Just need to convince SWMBO that life won't be complete without a 40' catamaran, a wooden motor yacht and a sleek racing yacht...plus a few runabouts as tenders.

But first to start building the motor launch and work up from there...

Regards,
Darren