Surian for a Cosine Wherry

[OtakiriLad]

I have started cutting out the mould frames for building the Cosine Wherry stripper as described in the book Rip, Strip and Row. In trying to source timber for the strips I was put onto something called Surian as a slightly cheaper version of WRC. It looks similar and has a similar weight/cube but I've never heard of it.

Has anyone had any dealings with it and if so is it a suitable timber for such a boat?

[jmk89]

I can't help with your question but have a look at the Queensland DPI's website - they seem to have heaps of good info on different timbers.
http://www.dpi.qld.gov.au/cps/rde/xchg/dpi/hs.xsl/29_152_ENA_HTML.htm

And remember - if you are building a boat, or even thinking of doings so, and want to get help from the people who participate in this Forum, pictures - aka boat - really get people going. So keep on asking, but show us the boat!

[LuckyDuck]

Otakirilad,

Go slowly before you get talked into Surian Cedar. Yes it is considerably cheaper than WRC, but it is usually an inferior timber to work. I say usually, because it varies quite a bit from board to board. Years ago I made a bedroom suite out of Surian, with frame and panel joinery. I found that overall the timber was easy to thickness and join, reasonable to table saw, but terrible to router, chisel or sand. It is a "furry" wood and I found it nearly impossible to get rid of the fur. Mind you, some of the boards, which were uniformly much heavier and darker (and therefore much more like WRC), thicknessed, joined, sawed, chiseled, routed and sanded beautifully.

In the end, I wish very much that I had not cut the corner by purchasing Surian. I could have done less labour, and had a much more pleasing (albeit expensive) outcome if I had just purchased WRC instead.

Regards, LuckyDuck

[Shedhand]

Is this what you're building. If so why not use King Billy Pine? Here (http://oak.arch.utas.edu.au/tbia/tech_species_info.asp?speciesID=49503)'s an informative link.
Cheers

[Boatmik]

Kirri (Paulownia) is pretty cheap, low density and sands and cuts easily.

Its density is a bit less than WRC but allied with glass sheathing it is easily strong enough. There has been some press to suggest that Kirri needs to be a bit thicker than WRC to match the strength - but you really don't need to worry - I used balsa once for a strip canoe - and had few problems.

BTW balsa is a bit too expensive now - and I wouldn't suggest doing a dinghy of it anyhow - fun for canoes though!

Best Regards

[OtakiriLad]

For those who like to see what I'm talking about!

[Tony Hunt]

I'd agree with the other replies. Surian is a different "cedar" to WRC - botanically it's in the genus Toona, so is related to trees like Australian red cedar and while it's quite soft it's technically a hardwood. Although it's generally regarded as an inferior timber to Oz red cedar it's often marketed as "red cedar" by unscrupulous people and superficially they look similar.

Western red cedar is a softwood and quite different in many important respects. For boatbuilding, in particular strip-plank, the most important difference is that the grain is long and straight, so even on long thin strips there will be little grain run-out and they can be bent without the problem of snapping across stretches of short diagonally-oriented grain. Surian cedar, by comparison, is often quite figured (like Oz red cedar, it's what makes them valued as cabinetry timbers) which means that getting long straight strips without any grain run-out will be really difficult unless it's an unusually straight-grained piece of Surian. I suspect that WRC may also be a bit more durable than Surian.

Surian is also cut from the rainforests of South-east Asia, one of the least regulated (and all too often outright illegal) forestry operations in the world operating in one of the most biologically diverse ecosystems in the world.

I'd go with the WRC and bear the extra expense if I was you!

[jmk89]

For those who like to see what I'm talking about!

I love it - it just needs sails and it'll be perfect....:D

A boat like that deserves the right timber - the timber isn't the most expensive part of a wooden boat by a long chalk, but it is in a sense the most fundamental. Use the most appropriate timber you can afford, anything else is a false economy.

This is like the discussions about what ply you should use - in the end the answer always is the best marine, because the price difference isn't so great in the scheme of the whole project.

[bitingmidge]

I've used a bit of surian for gunwhales, inwhale spacers, bits of paddles and things like that. I've given some thought to building a strip canoe and using it as a couple of feature strips.

It is light, and a bit furry, but nothing a coat of epoxy won't fix (which is different to working it in furniture)

As Mik said, Kiri (Paulownia) is lighter, cheaper and easier to work, but it isn't the same rich red colour!

Shedhand, King Billy is nice to look at, but the boat would end up a tad heavy for my missus to lift off the car by herself, and that's one of my key concerns.... the day I have to help launch a boat is the day I give up boating! ;)

Cheers,

P

[OtakiriLad]

Thanks team for all the comments. It looks that WRC is the go. Interesting though that John Gills have heard of Kiri but have no idea where to get it. Moxons have never even heard of it (nor Pawlonia for that matter). Any suggestions as to a supplier in Brisbane.

[LuckyDuck]

Thanks team for all the comments. It looks that WRC is the go. Interesting though that John Gills have heard of Kiri but have no idea where to get it. Moxons have never even heard of it (nor Pawlonia for that matter). Any suggestions as to a supplier in Brisbane.

I have purchased extensively from John Gill and Moxon, many years ago, but now purchase exclusively with Lazarides Timber Agency out at Banyo, Brisbane. The old man out there is Garreth and his son (seems to be taking over these days as I talk to him more than Garreth) is Troy. They are friendly, service oriented people. But more on the timber.

The timber out at Lazarides, in my experience, is top quality. It is straight, properly kiln dried (they do it themselves on site), and is rarely (if ever) exhibits case-hardening when I'm ripping it.

Unfortunately Lazarides have a reputation of being expensive. This is because they sell timber in two different ways. You can pay, board by board and pay for the privilege of getting exactly whatever piece you want. Or you can pay pack rates (0.75 cubic metre or larger) and get a substantial discount. I only purchase packs from them and you will be surprised at the competitive nature of their pack rates.

Give them a ring, or better yet, go out and have a look. I am not affiliated with them at all. I'm just a happy customer. I have bought cubic metres worth of American Oak, Tasmanian Blackwood, New Guinea Rosewood, and Jarrah, in various thicknesses including 25mm, 38mm and 50mm. Happy shopping. Regards, Luckyduck

[onthebeachalone]

I'm pretty sure BoatCraft Pacific (out at LoganHolme) have Pawlonia.

[bitingmidge]

Boatcraft http://www.boatcraft.com.au have it in strips ready to go.

I get mine in bigger scantilings from CWC panels at Bulimba http://www.cwcpanels.com.au They'll rip it to size for you if you wish.

Cheers,

P

[onthebeachalone]

Not to wander too far from the original question, but I always assumed folks were referring to "Syrian" cedar as in right next door to "Cedars of Lebanon" which, I guess, wouldn't recognise the border between the two countries.

I just Googled it and there's Surian Cedar references all over the place.

I don't think I've ever seen it written before. Did I assume wrong?

Apologies if this is a hijack :o