Dare I let the cat out of the bag? [Archive]

Wild Dingo

18th June 2006, 01:48 PM

mmm now comes that dreaded $$$ thing...

See now someone bloody well make this clear for me to understand okay?

Davids site quotes Paketi as $330AUD

Woodenboat.com store sells the plans for Paketi for $175USD

Convert with XE.com... and the $175USD converts to $236.84AUD

So buying direct from Davids going to set me back 100 real dollards more than sending and buying through Woodenboat in Maine... now having said that 100 smackers isnt a lot of money overall however some have or would say that it would be quicker buying in Aus postage etc this isnt so Ive bought plans through Woodenboat before and the turnaround is approx 13 days while some Aussie plans Ive bought have taken up to 2 months to get to me

As for being able to access the designer I should think given I would have bought the plans legitably through Woodenboat I would still have access to David so that wouldnt make any difference

So the only difference I see is that by buying from the designer Im going to be out $100!

Can you see why I get phissed off from time to time about Aussie designs?

Mind here I once tried to contact Clark Craft in the States about a power cat design they had that cost around the same 175USD they promptly without contacting me referred my email to their Aussie counterpart who promptly quoted me the 300+AUD price therefore takking an added 100 onto the price... when questioned about the discrepency his response was thats the price pay it or dont... needless to say I didnt... If I sent the damned cheque straight to ClarkCraft in the states in the first place I would have saved 100... now that all sounds nit picky its bloody annoying as hell

Now I find Davids doing the same bloody thing! I mean the yanks get the design for $100 less than we Aussies get it? Unless we go through a US site to get them?

No no its not going to distract me or stop me Im just going to have to decide which route to take... that 100 may not be a lot of money in real terms but by christ it could be a sheet of marine ply or some goop or whatever it could go into the building of the boat!!

thinkin thinkin thinkin

Now Mik explain why the above is!! So much for buyin local and supporting locals :rolleyes:

Daddles

18th June 2006, 02:59 PM

Ya silly git. After avoiding David like the plague for so long, you've finally seen sense ... AND YOU'RE STILL FIGHTING IT.

Mate. David Payne is an aussie recreating our heritage in a form we can build. And he's making sooooo much money out of it, he has to have another job to pay for odds and sods such as food and housing. If you buy from an agent, part of the fee goes to the agent, part goes to the designer. You buy from the designer, it ALL goes to the designer. And the difference in price? Mate, think about what he's produced in those plans. Think about the hours of work just to draw the plans, let alone design the thing. And how many is he going to sell? What do YOU reckon his hourly rate will work out to?

You can hand money to the seppos if you like. Personally, I'm a little disappointed you had to ask (though I admit that with the price difference, it's worth having a think about).

Richard

BTW, she's a lovely boat :D

Wild Dingo

18th June 2006, 04:27 PM

I just wondered is all :o ... Curious wee buggar that I am I tend to chew and nibble gnaw and crunch it all the hell and back

Handing money to the seppos as you say isnt what bothers me its more the damned difference that gets up my nose... doesnt it get up yours? I mean shyte! they want to sell the plans then get one freekin price and everyone pays the damned same! not a special cheeper price for the seppos and a dearer one for homegrown... mind here Davids not the only one that does this I know John Welsford also does as does Iain Oughtred... it just gives me the utter shytes is all

And anyways didnt I say it wasnt gonna stop me? HUH DIDNT I??

Nope mate this is her and to say I wont get her from David is a bit stoopid I think since its only $100... and to be honest I dont mind :cool: and the missus the controller of the finances well to be honest she dont matter :eek:... as long as I dont tell her I can get it $100 cheeper by goin ex USA!! ;) Which I dont intend to do!! :rolleyes:

Id rather work with David direct which buyin from him will achieve AND also I can tap that legend Doc Mik while Im at it... aahhh she be perfek eh?!!:cool:

bitingmidge

18th June 2006, 05:48 PM

I'm sure that Mik will have something to contribute, and I'm not talking specifically about the Woodenboat shop here, but I am privy to what some outlets were offering designers.

It's sort of "you pay us to sell your stuff", so once the pitiful fixed dollar commission is payed to the bloke that did the work, he gets to watch as the retail outlets actually undercut him!

Then they quite happily offer their customers full support from the designers, so they don't have to do anything for them. The designers in the meantime, having earned less than a dollar per hour producing the plans, get to provide support for free!

The lack of morality is not with the designers!

Pay the $100, and be proud that you are helping to keep an Aussie designer alive!

cheers,

P

ernknot

18th June 2006, 09:10 PM

bloggs1968

18th June 2006, 09:14 PM

Shane,

i know the feeling on the plan pricing.

I bought a set of plans for an Oughtred Puffin last week. Oughtred advised me 66 pounds (about $160 oz) but he said I should go to Duck Flat as he had some deal with them. I spoke to Duck flat and they charged me $226! I queried them and told them Iain's price and they wouldn't budge.

I have got some of Iain's plans before from Wooden Boat ( for the two Caledonias I am doing at the moment) and the quality of the photocopying was very poor. Iain sent me an updated versions and the quality was great.

I'd buy direct from David. Any OZ designer should be supported here and you would have a foot in the door if you rang him up and spoke with him before you ordered.

I've got a mate of mine(boatbuilder) in WA who is keen on David's designs as well. It is a great choice.

regards,

AD

jmk89

18th June 2006, 09:15 PM

WD

Great to hear that you have found her.

Sometimes these discoveries are even more important because it was just beyond the tip of your nose the whole time, but you didn't know.

And you're right - if you had found her early on, you would not know now how right she is.

Now my love is an 11' dinghy. But it has taken me 15 years to decide to build her and I suspect you may have yours done before me. But the dreaming (I call it plannning) is almost as good as the doing.

All the best.

Jeremy

graemet

18th June 2006, 09:32 PM

A great choice, Shane. You won't regret buying from David and you'll make a great friend at the same time. I guess I have an interest as I was able to get his advice at any stage while building Teepookana, but his work is spot on and any variations you decide on will be very carefully calculated, so the whole dream goes together with the least amount of drama.
Gees, he actually turned up at the launching and took her for a sail!
Cheers
Graeme

Daddles

18th June 2006, 09:53 PM

Just echoing that Bloggs character who has clashed horns with me on the CY forum (in a nice way :D G'day mate).

My Auk plans came from the Woodenboat store. They were cheaper than elsewhere and the photocopy was horrid. Worse still, they weren't anything like the latest plans from Iain at the time. There are a myriad of stories of people buying direct from Iain and getting extras, extras that the agent wouldn't know about. I can't say that the same applies to David Payne but my dealings with him have been direct, honest and I reckon he'll look after you.

Richard

it's still a lovely boat. I'd like to book passage on her please. Hell, I'll even help sand something :eek:

echnidna

18th June 2006, 10:00 PM

Dare I let the cat out of the bag?

Whenya ready ter put it in the craypot :D :D

Wild Dingo

20th June 2006, 05:57 PM

Too Right I am mate... we got adopted by a feral kitten a few months back and the hoons love it but mate I need some cray bait and that furball thing is just PERFEK!! :cool:

Actually its not a bad thing that furball... we have this agreement it does NOT step on paw in my shed or in the house and it continues to breathe... it does and its craybait!... so far its bloody lucky! sodit! :rolleyes:

You know its funny... Every time I "decide" that this or that design is "IT" someone comes up with something else to turn me head... this time it hasnt happened

mmm well aside from a bloke who I was yarnin with awhile back about a set of Wharram Tiki 26 plans he had spare who has suddenly started emailing me with pics and sayin the ruddy plans are still available!!! :mad:

BUT!!! possum did say I had exactly $1000 left in the plans kitty and that I must make a decision and stick with it... so if I get Davids Paketi plans for 330 and these Tiki ones for 540 that about does it eh? and heck Ive even got some change left after!!! WHAHOO!! not enough for that other star attraction Petersons Susan but hey so what! I can live with that ;)

Boatmik

20th June 2006, 09:04 PM

mmm well aside from a bloke who I was yarnin with awhile back about a set of Wharram Tiki 26 plans he had spare who has suddenly started emailing me with pics and sayin the ruddy plans are still available!!! :mad:
Howdy Dingo,

The Tiki 26 is a classic - heaps of style (the Tikis are amongst the most stylish cats - but just like a Rosinante the looks are at considerable price in terms of interior volume).

Mind you if someone offered me a Rosinante ... I just wouldn't hesitate.

I know people have gone around the world in the little Tiki - but the accomodation is more like a WW1 slit trench than accomodation as we know it.

Because of the vee hulls in these small sizes the boat is hugely wider at deck level than at berth level.

If you have seen one in the flesh - then you will know whether the interior is acceptable to you - but if you haven't LOOK CAREFULLY AT THE PLANS AND CHECK STUFF AGAINST THE SCALE CAREFULLY.

Whereas if you have read the "Compleat Cruiser" by LFH (if you haven't send some of your plan money that way!) there is a drawn cross section of the Rosinante with a properly scaled person sitting inside - my, it IS a little tight - maybe the chap there hits his elbows every time he has to relight his pipe - but LFH's sketch is there warts and all - brutally honest about the space.

The TIKI really is in the same sorta scale to the Rosinante but with less overall beam (per hull) and much less at hip height.

Looking at both from the outside I think they are both high expressions of art. But just check for yourself that the TIKI's accomodation will suit you.

MIK

Wild Dingo

20th June 2006, 10:35 PM

Gidday again there Mik... mate Im a shortass only 5ft 5 1/2 in me boots so what most people require in area spacial needs are somewhat less for me... Im not sayin your wrong just that Im smaller than the "average" bloke that designers work on... so where most feel cramped I feel quite comfy and cosy

The Tiki always has taken my breath away I honestly dont know what it is about them but there you have it... although my preference and initial purchase intent was and still would be for the larger Tiki 38 but Ive left that one too late... and now at $3250 for the plans well thats well above her highnesses stipulated plan spending amount limit... whereas this blokes price is right on the money

I love the look and the arrangement of them... Ive had several sails on a Tangaroa and a long one up the Northwest coast of WA on a Naria and love them its a totally difference experience to any other type of boat (multi or mono)

Some would say that the designer is important in the equasion and to some degree I agree but with Wharrams I think theyre the exception to the rule... See I have had several runins with James over the years on his forum along with another and in email conversations but I dont take them personal as its the boats I like not the man... he at this stage is quite irrelevent the information on building his designs is available without the need to contact him direct or personally

TK1

22nd June 2006, 10:04 AM

Hi Dingo,

Great choice on the dream boat! Looks great and wish I had the space to build something that big (limited to about 16-17' so even 23' boats are too big for me :mad: ).

Speaking of Wharrams too...I noticed last night that Classic Boats (the UK mag, which - forgive me for my sins - I like more than Wooden Boat) has a feature in the June issue on Wharram and his latest design(s). I only saw the ad in the May issue, so not sure how in-depth but it may be worth a read if you like his stuff.

Or if you want something a bit bigger...in the current Multihull mag there's a new cruising cat just been launched in Qld (of course) - the Executive 73...only $4million AUD but a nice looking boat for cruising the Whitsundays in! :D

If you can't get Classic Boat up there let me know and I can send you a copy or the article when the issue arrives.

Regards,
Darren

Wild Dingo

22nd June 2006, 11:31 AM

Thanks for the heads up Darren
James and Hanneke Boon (his design partner ;) ;) say no more) have bought out a couple of "new" designs over the last few years "child of the sea" and the "Islander" range... sadly and the cause of much disgust amongst old time Wharramites is that hes made them available to the industry rather than the amature... in other words hes made some contacts in Asia to build them professionally and so the designs arent available to anyone else

Hes also pushing his Tiki line that way as well with the larger ones being pushed to be bought from his builder in Asia

I dont really have a problem with that hes goin after the $$ what I have a bit of an issue with is that hes still maintaining that they are available for amature builders but the plans arent... you can get the study plans but not the building plans

Interestingly I actually do have issues with his plan price structure... since the plans have not been changed or altered since he drew them back in the 60s I dont see why the Aussie bloke that runs their site needs to have them so expensive... however I dont think another discussion on the $ of plans is relevent here... albeit that his designs were intended for the hippy yippie crew who couldnt afford the major cost of plans to get on the water seems hes changed that view over time... and sigh money is now most important... sigh never mind.

With Child of the sea which by the way I actually like a fair bit (crab claw sails and all ;) ) I know of one bloke a long time Wharramite who James sent the initial drawings to and hes been steadily building it since but has to wait on occasion for Hanneke to send updated or new drawings to continue

My preference with his designs are the older ones the Tiki Tehini Narai and such I dont particularily like his Pahi designs (other than the whopper Gaia) although they do have more internal room...

I will see if I can find that mag mate. Cheers for the heads up

TK1

22nd June 2006, 11:47 AM

his designs were intended for the hippy yippie crew who couldnt afford the major cost of plans to get on the water seems hes changed that view over time... and sigh money is now most important... sigh never mind.

Seems to be the case with a lot of 'old hippies' when they grow up and get mortgages, facing retirement, etc. Can't always blame them I guess ;)

I'm sure there's lots of his plans floating about in the community for peope in the future to buy or copy and so they'll keep getting built. Certainly easier than some of the other designs for cats I've seen out there. I think I'll wait to I can afford my Seawind before getting a catamaran :D

Let me know if you can't get the CB mag, there's always a few at my local newsagent - doesn't seem to be as prolific as Wooden Boat so you can't get it everywhere. And they're just staritng a series on buying a used boat which will be handy (moreso if I suddenly come into money!).

Regards,
Darren

Boatmik

22nd June 2006, 08:44 PM

Howdy,

James Wharram must be one of the most successful boat designers of all time.

He has tapped into the worldwide market in a way few others have.

But he probably isn't driving a Roller or anything like it.

MIK

Wild Dingo

22nd June 2006, 09:40 PM

All true Mik... and hes an arrogant git as well ;)

But his missus is real nice I actually rang and spoke to her awhile back one really nice lady... eerr thats the lady in Cornwall not his other "missus" Hanneke who from my contact is much of a muchness with James

Darren check out the designs of Shuttleworth another pom... Now THEY are EXPENSIVE!!! and I do mean EXBLOODYSPENSIVE!!! :eek:

I think he fell into the niche by accident and suddenly found he had stumbled upon something that a lot of people dreamed of but never had the money to afford and made his name through that avenue as it wasnt only the hippys that got on board with his designs... hes become much of an icon to many and likes to consider himself above reproach in many aspects

As I said I dont much like the bloke... but his older designs? yes! they definantly have something every other design hasnt got... an asthetic quality a style that screams freedom and evokes idle days in beautiful lagoons.

oooh one powerball and Im gone!!! but hang on a tic!! One powerball = upteen million dollars at my disposal? GAWDS FRIGGIN SAKE!!!! Id never make my friggin mind up!!! :rolleyes: nah better to be pistanbroke than mega rich I reckon

bitingmidge

22nd June 2006, 09:51 PM

they definantly have something every other design hasnt got... an asthetic quality a style that screams freedom and evokes idle days in beautiful lagoons.
Because the breeze is blowing from that direction and there's a chop and there's no friggin way you'd be pointing it over there!

If Ford had made a Model T version of the Kombi van, well that's about what you've got there!!

Cheers,

P
:D

Boatmik

22nd June 2006, 10:31 PM

Here is Dingo painting a tropical idyll ...

And it is full of biting midges.

OUCH!

A bit like some of the beaches a bit out the back of the Whitsundays.

But I do know where Midge is coming from - but Wharrams do look nice sitting in a tropical lagoon. Grass skirts, pert naked bosoms - not a cloud in the sky and no sign of melanoma.

I don't like them as sailing boats either, but stick 'em in a lagoon and they look luvverly. The early ones at least.

Don't forget the "RID" to deal with the midges and other biteys.

MIK

Wild Dingo

23rd June 2006, 02:22 AM

:D:D:D: Okay Midgey ol fella dont bust a hernia ol son relax I dont see one in my near future :D

TK1

23rd June 2006, 09:29 AM

Darren check out the designs of Shuttleworth another pom... Now THEY are EXPENSIVE!!! and I do mean EXBLOODYSPENSIVE!!! :eek:

Hi Dingo,

Checked out Shuttleworth's pages - some lovely designs, and something I'd consider if (a) I have a sudden penchant for fiberglass things and (b) I win lotto. But GBP9,000 for a PLAN?? :eek: :eek: You could pick up a nice second-hand cruiser for that in the UK or here - with the exchange rate...that's $22,500! :eek:

Thanks for the pointer to the designs though. Always nice to oogle expensive boats, even if they have dodgy 1970's interior styling.

Now, back to looking at plans of things I can afford....:(

Regards,
Darren

bitingmidge

23rd June 2006, 09:41 AM

:D:D:D: Okay Midgey ol fella dont bust a hernia ol son relax I dont see one in my near future :D
phew!!
:D

(But they are ok in a calendar, rather nice in fact!)

P
:D :D :D

Wild Dingo

23rd June 2006, 12:59 PM

phew!!
:D

(But they are ok in a calendar, rather nice in fact!)

P
:D :D :D

mmm so ve start vit someting small... an slowly next we vill get im to admit he ist likeing ze wing sail... zen ve get im to admit he vill like ze rudder set up... zen he will also be made to see zat ze shape is quite good for slicing through ze water and ze waves... zen VE VILL HAV IM! :cool:

steady steady catchy midgey :p :D its okay mate.... we know... we know:cool:

But you gotta admit that that wing sail shape is pretty neat eh? ;)

bitingmidge

23rd June 2006, 01:34 PM

an slowly next we vill get im to admit he ist likeing ze wing sail...
I've sailed plenty of big cats with proper wing masts, and had a big aluminum rotating sucker on mine, fully battened high aspect main, so cheap imitations just won't do! ;) (Unless they can be adapted to the Puddleduck!)

zen ve get im to admit he vill like ze rudder set up...

Well I did actually propose it for the Puddleducks as a cheap, light way of making them easy to build (to Mik's horror I do believe), and of course history will record that we built a far better arrangement for the princely sum of $3.00 per boat anyway....

zen he will also be made to see zat ze shape is quite good for slicing through ze water and ze waves...

And goink bouncy bouncy bouncy up und down up und down but not forwartz!!!!!

zen VE VILL HAV IM! :cool:

Or vill he haff hat you? :D :D

[QUOTE] steady steady catchy midgey[QUOTE]

Not in a Wharram you won't!!

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

Boatmik

27th June 2006, 01:59 PM

Well Dingo,

Finally I got to David's site to have a closer look at Paketi.

I know the SA one quite well - at least from a distance. Not necessarily a long one either.

http://www.payneyachts.com/images/Fresh_Aires2.jpg

from http://www.payneyachts.com

She is a really good sailer as you can see from the pic. A light breeze down at Goolwa and she is moving along nicely.

I will tell you just how cunning that David Payne bloke is.

It looks like a traditional boat from before the turn of the century, but the hull is an adaptation of the New Zealand tradition of cruising yachts. Australia had a bit of a tradition too (eg Rangers) but the NZ tradition resulted in a huge number of excellent cruising boats that were fast too.

Compared to Australian boats they were quite a bit narrower with fine lines and a very long waterline (see how the waterline length in the pic is the WHOLE length of the boat) to give high cruising speeds compared to the more conventional boats of the same length.

When the NZers brought their "cruising boats" over here for the Hobart etc they used to scare the locals witless.

The long waterline does mean that you shouldn't hugely overload or overbuild this type of boat. Stick to the designer's specs for scantlings and if there is an option through choice of materials or more sneaky construction - lighten her up. This will give either more speed or mean more payload can be carried without starting to sacrifice performance.

She can be overloaded and still be faster than other boats of the same length but she won't hit her own straps with HEAPS of weight aboard.

Probably the biggest departure between NZ cruising boats compared to OZ ones is their narrowness. Australians have usually been interested in getting volume through width. NZ designers got the volume through LENGTH.

In general if you make a boat longer without making it wider it will be a much better rough weather boat - it will bounce and roll around less (the sea has less of a grip) and will keep eating up miles when deeply reefed.

If you make a boat wider it will bounce around considerably more because of the added buoyancy and make the roll of the boat much more choppy in feel.

In the pic the headsail is furled - probably because it is a pain to handle two headsails. I would be considering using a single on a good furling system. Good sailmakers these days put carefully shaped pads down the luff of roller furling headsails so they can fly half out without turning into the horrible bags they used to. With roller reefing sails there is also no need now to ruin the set with those horrible blue edgings along the foot and leech. There are modern alternatives that are the same colour (or a clear plastic that stitches over the top) as regular sailcloth and keep the sail smooth and efficient.

Or else go for hanks and have a downhaul for the head of the sail that leads down through all the hanks, through a block at the tack and back to the cockpit. Throw the halyard and pull the downhaul and sheet - you may get a bit of the bunt in the water but not enough to get into trouble.

When the wind gets too much a deep reefed main and no jib will probably bring the centre of effort back over the keel - which can be raked back anyhow to keep things in line.

If going for the cutter make sure the jibstays are set as wide apart as possible - on David's website there are a number of different rig options - and one of them has the gap too small - I reckon it would be a right bugger to bring her round even with an experienced crew.

I like the cabin in the pic a lot too. Looks like a real NZ cruising boat - and much nicer to cook under too.

A proper sailing boat that will surprise many with her performance - but they will be thinking she is a pretty old timer that goes nowhere - wont they?!?

Won't THAT be fun!

MIK

I would suggest that won't impact the appearance is to spend some time getting the foils right - rudder and centreboard blades. Use templates to shape them to efficient sections and get a good surface - then she will eat up to windward like an 8 metre. Well, maybe not quite that well! Also when the going gets tough she still will eat out to windward much better. Good foil shapes are an excellent safety factor.

Also keep as much weight as possible out of her rig. It will have huge benefits in stability and speed.

Mike Field

7th July 2006, 07:34 PM

A couple of points about our two Aussie designers and their plans --

Whether you buy Paketi's or any other plans from David or from an agent, the price can be the same. (In David's case, this applies to all but two of his designs. Each of those two was specially commissioned and paid for in advance, and anyone buying those particular plans also pays a royalty to the commissioner as well as to David.)

In fact, it's possible for an agent to make commission on the plans even when undercutting David's RRP. (We do it. And were it not so he'd have no agents once his designs were known -- they'd wouldn't get any orders.) But agents can of course charge whatever price they like, even way above the price the designer sells at. They get away with it by relying on your not knowing who the designer is, how to contact him, or what the real RRP is.

In Iain's case (where, unfortunately, we're not agents,) you can buy plans direct from him and bypass any exorbitant fee structure you might encounter with an agent. Iain's contact details are --

Struan Cottage
Bearnisdale
Isle of Skye
IV51 9NS
Scotland
Phone: 44 1 470 532 732
.

bloggs1968

7th July 2006, 09:05 PM

Mike,

I purchased a set of "puffin" plans ( an Oughtred design) recently. Before I purchased, I spoke to Iain about the boat and as I have dealtt with him before, and I wanted to buy from him ( 66 pounds plus postage about $180 OZ). He advised he had an arrangement with Duck Flat and that I should buy from them.

On contacting duck flat, they advised the plans were 226.00. I queried them that they were cheaper through Iain and pretty much they said if I wanted them then that was the price.

So I guess as far as buying from Iain direct goes, it seems as if we are being stitched up by Duck Flat in OZ.

Anyone else bought from Iain direct???

regards,

AD

Wild Dingo

7th July 2006, 10:05 PM

Thanks Mike and bloggsy... Mike until recently I wasnt aware you were a seller of Davids plans and I think Im going to have to take at least the next 3 weeks (while away) to think about our talks and all the discussions had about Paketi

Re: the price thing... sadly it seems to be the way of things down here, recently I was amoured enough with a particular power cat design I sent an email directly to the email address on the USA site that email was redirected to their agent in the eastern states who promptly contacted me telling the price of the plans was $360AUD (thereabouts) and so I went back to the site checked the price in USD went to Xcom or whatever it is the conversion site and did the conversion $240AUD so this bloke was making a $100AUD to $120AUD per set of plans when I pointed out that if I chose to I could just send a ruddy cheque direct this peanut sent back "thats the price you either pay it or dont get the plans" that was his response verbatum!... so I emailed the site again and guess what? Nothing!

So anyway needless to say thats one set of power cat plans I dont have!

Personally I dont have a problem with anyone making a profit... none at all... its just when it comes with such an attitude I get seriously phissed off... and at that high a markup I wonder if they actually ever sell a single set down here! Or for that matter if they even want to!

Duck flat well... of course I would say theyre expensive I mean I want things cheep as well so I can then afford to buy more!! ;) ... I do however think the price could be lower but that would mean a lower profit from sales... Although I do believe if the price is actually lower (meaning their profit margin per item is lower) more would be sold which in fact would increase their overall profit margin ie: more sales at lower profit each item means more items sold more profit gained

But getting into a discussion on pricing is going to achieve stuff all in real terms... and is actually a waste of time since the price wont be dictated or changed by us discussing it here... it becomes argumentative and leads to sometimes quite angry discussions which isnt our purpose.

Mike Field

8th July 2006, 01:17 AM

Bloggsy -- I'm sorry to hear about that. But surely Rob hasn't got Iain stitched up too, has he? At that sort of price differential, it might be worthwhile getting back to Iain and explaining the situation again. Or are these the plans you've just bought, and is it now too late?

Unless Iain's signed a sole-distributor contract (you could ask) I would have thought a little negotiation would see him selling to you direct. He's a very nice bloke and being an ex-pat he's got a soft spot for us Aussies. I'm sure he'd be as reasonable as any legally-binding contract would allow him to be. Ask him if he has any other Aussie agents you could buy from. Or NZ ones. Or anyone anywhere else in the world, for that matter.

If nothing works, then tell him he's going to miss out on some commission, because sure as hell you're not paying the extortionate price his agent wants.... Then have a look at David's 3m dinghy design. :)

==========

Shane, given you're a bit of a couta boat man, have a look at David's Snapper Boat design while you're about it. Can't really live aboard as such, but she'd be okay as a camping cruiser for that weekend fishing trip you were talking about.
.

Wild Dingo

8th July 2006, 03:09 AM

No worries Mike will do :cool:

So given that... Cinema $300 Snapper Boat $300 and Paketi $300... and given that David himself doesnt have Paketi in the trailer sailer section but rather the sailing yachts section Id have to say he himself doesnt view it as trailer friendly (I cant read the displacement numbers on his website)... Cinema and the Snapper boat are definantly in the running

Someone please show me where I can get some actual couta boat plans!!!... and then Im done from among these three or two depending on the couta will the choice be made

Lucky Im buggaring of for 3 weeks in a few days eh? else someone will show me something else or Id find something else and then Id be stuffed at least out there with no internet and no outside contact I can think and consider just the ones I decide to focus on :cool: makes things easier eh? ;)

bloggs1968

8th July 2006, 09:39 AM

Mike,

too late, already purchased the plans.

I am also half way through David's 3m build ( going to be a nice little sailing dinghy).

regards,

AD

bitingmidge

8th July 2006, 10:37 AM

Bloggsy -- I'm sorry to hear about that. But surely Rob hasn't got Iain stitched up too, has he? At that sort of price differential, it might be worthwhile getting back to Iain and explaining the situation again.
<snip>
If nothing works, then tell him he's going to miss out on some commission, because sure as hell you're not paying the extortionate price his agent wants

You're not slagging off at the opposition are you Mike?

No Bloggsy, if you are going to tell Iain anything, tell him you want to buy direct because you can't see the point in him sharing any of his income with an agent and you like to keep designers in business. (but in fairness let him know that the introduction to his work came through his agent, and you are a bargain hunter back-dooring them on the advice of one of their competitors.)

Remember if you do that, Mike's always there to give you unlimited free advice even if you didn't buy the plans from him.:D (I have no bone to pick with Mike, other than the above and have had no dealings with him and he may indeed provide the best service in the country, I don't know.)

On the other hand, agents deliberately undercutting designers RRP can only serve to drive down the value of the designer's work in the long term, placing a price expectation in the marketplace (so the like's of Dingo won't buy except at the discount). How on earth are we going to expect to get new product out of designers when their own agents are undercutting them?

When are all you blokes going to wake up to the fact that there's no such thing as a free lunch. From my rather limited observation, the blokes that charge slightly more in this business are the ones actively promoting the industry, providing the backup and support. They are simply trying to support all of that.

It's too easy for the fringe dwellers who never provide sponsorship, provide minimal service, don't support local events or clubs, to live off the hard yakka of the ones that do, without needing the same overhead (or providing the same level of service).

If you've taken advice from or even been inspired after talking to someone from a company flogging plans, buy them from that company, your enquiry has cost them money which they have happily spent in the interests of the whole industry.

If you haven't, buy them from the designer direct, why shouldn't they get the full freight?

Just stop the bargain hunting mentality, (and slagging the opposition) you are doing yourselves no favours in the long run.

Cheers.

P (I woke up grumpy this morning, I knew I should have just let her sleep!)
:D :D :D

Boatmik

8th July 2006, 11:35 AM

Bloggsy -- Unless Iain's signed a sole-distributor contract (you could ask) I would have thought a little negotiation would see him selling to you direct.
.
Howdy Mike

Having a contract might be irrelevant - it usually is so in our industry where things are done on the basis of a handshake backed up by years of both the designer and the agent working to build up the sales of the designer's plans.

And Ducks have been working hard to do it and putting amounts that make the $45 differential in plans look like nothing.

Have you seen Iain's excellent Clinker Boatbuilding Manual? Ducks bankrolled its publication in Australia - They paid every cent to get a few thousand copies published - and they did that without knowing whether they would be able to sell them or not.

Did you remember when Iain came to Australia a couple of years ago for the SA Wooden Boat Festival - it was largely bankrolled and largely organised by Ducks.

They also used their media push to leverage the occasion get heaps of Iain's boats to the festival from all round Australia. The owners had a hoot - the designer had a hoot - the public (13000 people) had a good chance to see what the fuss was about.

And the festival itself was started with the help of Duck Flat - Rolly Bartlett and Robert Ayliffe were the two prime movers at the beginning to get the whole thing happening and Ducks have had active committee responsibilities for the festival ever since.

All this builds up the depth of the whole industry - which we ALL benefit from - hell - Duck Flat WAS the industry in the early days. They were the only ones paying for and doing nation wide promotion for what would become "the Australian wooden boat scene" some years later - later to be joined in the promotional push by Ian Smith in Sydney and Rob Denney in Qld, the AABB staff and others who were busy writing, advertising, organising events - just making things happen.

But I think that the argument can be made that Ducks were the ones who put their bits on the line the most consistently and the loudest.

For the consumer
$45 - Two people going to see a movie and having a coffee. It will seem irrelevant when the boat is built or you have to sort a problem out.

For the agent
Get a sense of the WHOLE industry - you haven't created it by yourself - you owe lots to everyone who has made some effort (read real time and real money) to create it for everyone's benefit - not just following their own narrow self interest.

That's how the world is made a better, more diverse, more interesting place.

Best Regards to All
Michael Storer

Wild Dingo

8th July 2006, 01:16 PM

ahh well och aye thars all wel an goo thar midgie one... but Iain bein a bonny Scot... tha is a lad from tha fair isle would more than unnastan a bonny laddie lookin for a wee bargain! Tis in tha Scotish gene mate bargain hunters an tightasses the lot of em! ;) :cool:

Do you yerself no look for a bargain? do ye not argue or haggle when something is dearer by far from one source and cheeper from another? do ye not take yer business elsewhere if your local provider doesnt give you a fair shake? Why the heck should purchasing boat plans be any different?

Personally I ALWAYS check the prices... always... if I can get THE SAME thing elsewhere for a better price then why shouldnt I? cause it doesnt support the person onselling? Well in my view and this is solely my view... if the local person onselling the product has whacked on a high profit margin to the item and wont negotiate that price downward or at least discuss doing so then why buy from them? If you can get it from another source for $100 less why not go that route? And why support rude and expensive opportunists when you dont have to... I also ALWAYS verify the price on the website is acurate at the time of enquiry since often the sites are just sitting and arent updated regularily so verifying gets you the accurate price... For example I did this with David with Paketi its not hard the designer doesnt mind and then its clear up front and above board

Okay so just talking about designers... Iain vs FlatDuck... I have no issue or interest in either personal or otherwise... but if I can contact Iain by using the contact info freely available and recieve the plans via him direct for $60 or whatever less than DuckFlat then why the blazes would I go to DuckFlat? that $60 or whatever although not a lot in real money terms will allow you to purchase or put it toward something for the actual boat and thats more important in the long run than giving that $60 or whatever to DuckFlat... who by the way would make far more income from other avenues of their business than selling the plans...
ClarkCraft vs their Aussie distributor... Why the bloody hell would anyone deal with someone who marks the price up $100 above the price when one can get direct from ClarkCraft itself?... even with the difference in the conversion why anyone would deal with arrogant rude local distributors is beyond me! "thats the price pay it or dont get the plans" Stuff the plans then sport! plenty more out there so stuff you jack you just lost a sale... personally I would have thought 1 sale would be far better than no sale? but hey thats just me

ooh and sometimes I will and have paid the straight up price for plans... cost came into it of course but after contact after negotiation and at times even after just mulling it over Ive paid the price... I do not only buy a bargain! When I have to I will pay the price asked

but if the Aussie distributor is an arrogant rude p***k then buggar them... if theres a major markup from the Aussie distributor be it sole or business then stuff them if theres a more direct route thats going to a) get the plans b) at a price that benifits both the designer and you... then go that way

ON THE OTHER HAND!... Ive bought plans cheeper from the distributor by haggling with the distributor some come down below the designers price to make a sale if they can do it... more often than not they can... they just have to be asked or haggled with or informed of the other avenue open to your finances.

see now do we now know why I didnt want to get into a price of plans discussion?... mmm?? :rolleyes:

Boatmik

8th July 2006, 01:33 PM

Discounting Plans

Mike - I don't think you should be discounting plans below David Payne's prices pretty much for the reasons Peter gave.

Dingo - I don't think you should EVER negotiate with an agent to get a cheaper price than the designer is offering. Speak to the designer directly so they can make an informed choice about their own livelihood.
_____________________________

Using the example of Mike selling David's plans at a discount - It will simply reduce the amount of money David gets.

There are no rich OZ designers - either we are happy living in near poverty or have to work other jobs to keep going financially. All are battlers.

If David is anything like me he will sell around 30-40% of plans directly and then gets to keep the whole purchase price for himself including the agents commission - so he makes a bit more that way.

So if you are selling them at a discount people will come to you and David won't get to sell plans directly at all. Which impacts on his bottom line - he will make less than the somewhat paltry amounts that he is earning now for his huge and wonderful effort.

The way to get plan sales is to grow the industry by advertising, by organising events, by helping people even when there is not a buck involved (what I'm doing here and in other places - what Welsford does on his website, what Ducks, David and many others do) - a positive contribution. And they - we - get known for our enthusiasm and positive contribution and customers will come because they know that we will take good care of them.

Dropping prices will not sell more plans - providing the difference is not crazy like the doubling of the cost as per Dingo's American Agent experience.

This is because it is an emotional decision to build a boat - and only a certain number of people can get to that point. You can't get someone to get involved in this boatbuildig lark by dropping the price - they have to WANT to build a boat first and probably have to WANT to build a boat similar to the one you are hawking.

So in the end discounting below the designer's own prices won't attract more people - it just gets less money from the same number and in this case it is the designer who is paying.

MIK

Boatmik

8th July 2006, 02:02 PM

... if the local person onselling the product has whacked on a high profit margin to the item and wont negotiate that price downward or at least discuss doing so then why buy from them?
Because you like the boat.

And because when you start building it you might have some problems - maybe a missing sheet from the plan - maybe some of the designer's detail is not clear - maybe some materials are not available locally and have to be substituted. Maybe there are a bunch of bad offsets lurking. The agent will sort it for you and won't charge you anything for the overseas calls and so on.

Having a relationship with local person is very useful to many builders.

I would totally agree with Dingo about negotiating - if you do it straight as Dingo suggests - fair enough.

Some "rules" :-) IMHO IMHO IMHO

1/ Think about whether the agent may be adding value as above, or be paying for advertising and promotion that make the woodenboat scene bigger - which the designer generally can't do much of.

2/ Never use the agent's time if you actually intend to buy the plan from somewhere else - it is just dishonest.

3/ Never ask an agent to discount below the designer's price - see my previous post.

4/ If you want to try and get a discount below the designer's price - front the designer directly and let the person whose bottom line is being affected make the decision.

Keeps it clean, neat and above board.

Best Regards to All

Michael Storer

Daddles

8th July 2006, 02:24 PM

Who do you support?
The bloke who's going to give you the best service.

Theoretically, I'd rather buy from the designer - he gets all the money and as Mik has said, he deserves it. However, it's then cheeky to expect the local agent to trouble shoot the plans for you. Also, if I were to ask Mik for a set of plans, and he told me to buy through the Quackery, I'd do as he asked, because he's the one who knows how his business is going to work best and by asking me to buy through an agent, he's maximising his profit - remember, that profit may be something intangible, not out and out cash.

Gets complicated doesn't it.

It's also why, where possible or practical, I buy bits from Binks - they are my local chandlery and while they are successful, I don't have to traipse across town or into the hills to buy the bits I need. Of course, they've lost their resident expert on all things wooden boatie, so I annoy him by email instead ;)

I don't mind paying for service. You go to a shop, they look after your interests and give good advice to stoopid questions - that's worth a bit of money. I have a track record of going past shops who just hand you the item and take your money and nothing else. I don't know everything (yes, that realisation surprises me too :rolleyes: ) and so having access to someone who knows something I don't, or who can at least have a go at helping, is worth it. So I'm trying to cultivate my local shop.

Why don't I go up to the Quackery? Because it's at Mount Flamin' Barker and barely local - a cut lunch and a water bag job. I don't go to any of the mobs at Pt Adelaide either for the same reason.

You do have to have a look at prices and compare - it's silly paying a huge premium of it's not going to get you anything, but I'd be wary of an agent undercutting the designer.

Richard

who won't have this issue next time because Mik's going to design it for me ... but shhhh, don't tell him yet, he might emigrate:eek:

Boatmik

8th July 2006, 02:58 PM

Dingo - you are WRONG - I don't use that word often but you are WRONG.

Gotcha!!! :-)

The amount difference for the Puffin plans is $46 and Ducks will only see about half of that.

So you are getting all steamed up
over a real difference of much less than $26.70

Let me explain

When negotiating be a bit aware of some of the costs that the distributor has to carry.

If they actually stock plans then they have to pay two lots of postage - from the UK plus an overnight bag to the customer for around $9 for bulky plans like Iain's and mine.

So that adds $9

Also when buying plans from Oughtred there is no GST component in the price that Ducks pay - so they can't claim any of it back as they can with locally produced goods - when supplied by someone within our GST system they would be able to claim back 2/3rd of it (ie assuming their markup was 1/3 which is about typical. The same situation is true of plans bought from me - ducks can't claim it back either because I am outside the GST system - I just don't earn enough so can optionally drop out.

So anyway - that adds 2/3 of 16.36 = $10.91

$46 - $19.91 = $26.70

And that is without considering the costs of storing the plans which is now the Duck's responsibility rather than the designer's, the fact that the Ducks are doing much of the promotion here rather than the designer.

bloggs1968

8th July 2006, 04:59 PM

Mik/Midge,

I made the comment on the plan difference to highlight the difference in price between buying direct and buying through an agent. Whilst it is only about $46 difference in cost, it all adds up after a while. (especially in business where you want to make money for yourself before becoming generous enough to contribute to other businesses).

I will not use the plans agent for anything during the build and if I have any queries that I can't sort out myself I can ring the designer direct and get it first hand. Whilst I acknowledge that some agents such as Duck Flat have been good for the local small boat scene, I don't believe that Duck have added anything to me as a customer by selling me the plans as opposed to buying from Iain direct. Iain asked me to buy from Duck as obviously he has an arrangement with them. I wanted the plans and did what Iain asked but why should the agent make money from me for nothing?

I don't believe that you should undercut a designers price and I am more than happy to pay good money for good plans but this money should go to the designer. I reckon that small boat plans are cheap enough ( and should cost more if you ask me) given the time involved in developing them to the stage that many designers do these days.

regards,

AD

Boatmik

8th July 2006, 06:40 PM

All your angst seems to be directed at the agent - but Iain is grown man and has made certain business decisions because they are good for him.

The prices are on the Duck's website for him to see and he visited a couple of years ago so I would assume it has his blessing.

He deserves equal criticism - but I don't see any from you - or dingo or Mike.

[quote=bloggs1I reckon that small boat plans are cheap enough ( and should cost more if you ask me) given the time involved in developing them to the stage that many designers do these days.[/QUOTE]

Exactly - you are prepared to send more money the designer's way and he is prepared to send more the agent's way.

Perhaps you can look at it that way and feel better about it.

Michael

bitingmidge

8th July 2006, 06:53 PM

Whilst it is only about $46 difference in cost, it all adds up after a while. (especially in business where you want to make money for yourself before becoming generous enough to contribute to other businesses).

I will not use the plans agent for anything during the build and if I have any queries that I can't sort out myself I can ring the designer direct and get it first hand.

I'm not picking on you bloggs, but you did raise a few points for which I felt there was a valid argument (and that's what I do for sport! :D )

If I'm reading this quote correctly, you are in the business of building small boats.

This is a different kettle of fish again. My experience with commercial building (Boats and houses as it happens!) albeit on a much larger scale, is that you would expect to pay the designer's costs on the first item and a royalty thereafter.

Often this would be the complete design and documentation cost, not some sappy $100 token though.

You wouldn't normally be expected to pay for the entire planset over and over, neither should you be!

In the exact case you mentioned, if you are contemplating production of a number of them, I'd speak with both designer and agent, pay the agent full freight for the first set as preferred by the designer, then strike a deal with the designer for royalties on subsequent boats. Surely that way everyone wins including yourself?

If you are building one-offs, and the end product is not sufficiently attractive to justify the additional 46 dollars, then I suggest you look for another design that is, you haven't got your market research quite right!

Cheers,

P

bloggs1968

8th July 2006, 07:44 PM

But getting into a discussion on pricing is going to achieve stuff all in real terms... and is actually a waste of time since the price wont be dictated or changed by us discussing it here... it becomes argumentative and leads to sometimes quite angry discussions which isnt our purpose.

Sorry Dingo,

thread seems to be getting a bit hijacked on this issue - you must be able to see in to the future. The one thing I enjoy about this forum is the diverse range of views.

So what have you decided to actually go ahead with??????

regards,

AD

Daddles

8th July 2006, 07:54 PM

So what have you decided to actually go ahead with??????

**hysterical laughter**

Wild Dingo

8th July 2006, 08:06 PM

:D I tell yer what mate... I will tell you all once Ive laid the keel put up the frames and am starting to lay the planks! hows that? ;)

Ive been down the road of price disputes and price reasonings a hundred times in a hundred different places... and it never seems to end on a good note so I guess I just dont enjoy it for that reason.

I dont believe in going behind the designers back and doing things as Mik says dishonest... I do however believe in seeking the best price for whatever you are buying why pay a prenium for something when by going another route you can get exactly the same item for considerably less? Doesnt make sence...

Wanting the design? I mean come on Mik!! You of all people must know that building a boat is nothing if its not an EMOTIONAL thing!!... emotion and compromise = boat!

Im bloody emotional when I think of the Peterson Susan design I love so much... but at the price of plans + conversion + cost of moulds being sent down its really emotional!!!... but thats okay cause thats where compromise kicks in... I compromise and say buggar the Susan I will look seriously at Paketi or another Aussie boat design... and so it goes

A choice of design is first and foremost an emotional thing... the bloody design HAS TO APPEAL to your emotions!!... then its a closer look can you compromise giving up the gaff sails for the macoroni rig can you compromise by giving up the solid timber planking for ply and googe etc etc etc... emotion and compromise = boat!

I have yet to bring myself to seriously COMPROMISE what I want in a boat... but by gar Im bloody close!!... Cause I just dont intend to be stuck down here and miss yet another summers fishing!!... well okay I can miss ONE more but after that by all thats holey I better have a friggin boat behind Effys ass and be heading NORTH to the bara and trevalli fishing grounds!! ;)

So... I think I will leave it now till I have a few things done... then I will jump all over this forum Yaaaaaaaahoooooing and Wahooooing like some demented chook!! :cool:

Shut up Richard! :p

bitingmidge

8th July 2006, 08:41 PM

Hang on, what a weak bunch of lilly livered.... just as I get you on the ropes you all go back to the topic!!

WHAT'S THAT ABOUT? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Cheers,

P
:D

Wild Dingo

9th July 2006, 12:30 AM

aahh Midge mate... see now what happened was the thread started life as a thread generally does right on topic... but then cause threads have this wonton desire to wander all over the place so did this one... we however in this case made sure it wandered just the right way that would bring you in ;) otherwise as we all know you would have had nothing to do and been rather bored and as we all know all too well a midgey that is bored is not a happy camper and tends to get their stings and barbs happenin all over the forum so we lead this thread in such a way as it would lure you in... and so it did... good thread!! :cool:

Then just as we realized you were having lots of fun and "sport" the thread did as threads do at times... it turned back upon itself and reverted to the original topic! :p

Now the thread and those contributing other than your own good self have had some wonderful "sport" at your expense! :eek: Damnably good of the thread! ;)

And mate? Thats how a good thread allows us all to get our sport!! :D

Cheers! :cool:

Oh... and... Shut up Richard!!! strewth! I can hear your hyena cackling all the way over the damned nallabour man!! :rolleyes: :D :D

Mike Field

9th July 2006, 05:05 AM

No Midge, I'm not "slagging off at the opposition," as you said or implied at least three times in the course of your little sermon. We are not in competition with that company (whose name I deliberately refrained from mentioning, I might point out.) For the record, we do not sell Iain's plans. Nor have we ever done so. Nor have we ever sought to do so.

I have no idea where Bloggsy first saw that plans for Puffin were available, or what the vessel looked like. It may indeed have been on "that company's" website, but it could equally as well have been from a variety of other sources -- including Iain's own book of drawings and descriptions, which has been around for years and is available from I don't know how many boating outlets. Or he may have seen photos of other people's boats built to that design. Or he may simply have been asking questions in general terms on the WoodenBoat Forum or elsewhere. I don't know. (Nor, I suspect, do you.)

What I do know is that your repeated assertions that my company is in competition with the other one are unfounded. To the best of my knowledge, not one of our products -- or even our agents' products -- is on their product list, nor is any of their products on ours.

We do have some agents for our products however, and we offer them significant discounts in order to encourage them to market our products for us. That's a very good way for an agency agreement to work -- it encourages the agent to sell on behalf of his supplier, which is good for both. And n a free market, market forces will determine the price at which the product sells, whoever is the seller.

Whether in fact there is a free market in Oz for Iain's plans I don't know. It would depend on the terms of his agency agreement, one of which might restrict him from selling his own plans here. (That's what I suggested Bloggsy might like to find out.) Iain would enter such an agreement presumably only if he thought his agents would sell plenty of plans for him.

Now Midge, you said that "agents deliberately undercutting designers RRP can only serve to drive down the value of the designer's work in the long term, placing a price expectation in the marketplace (so the like's of Dingo won't buy except at the discount).."

Please let me explain something.

The designer sets a price on his product at which he's willing to sell. Please read that again. The designer sets his own price. No agent can decide, on behalf of the designer, what the designer's selling price is going to be. He can only determine his own selling price.

If the designer is selling his own products in competition with his agent, then an agency agreement can only work properly if the agent knows at what price the designer is selling to end-users, and at what price he himself can buy from the designer, for on-selling. The arrangement works because the producer forgoes some profit in return for having some marketing, sales, and client-management undertaken by the agent.

If the designer sells direct to end-users, then an agent will only want to be involved if his buying price is such that he can undercut the designer's price to end-users (should he want to) and still make a profit. Otherwise of course people will buy direct from the designer. That is, they will if they know who he is, how to contact him, and what his prices are. And herein lies a method by which an agent can sell at a higher price than his supplier -- he keeps his customers in the dark about his sources. (At this point I might say that that's not the way my company operates. I'll happily point you to David to buy your plans if you want to buy them from him. But because of the agency agreement that exists between us, and because we don't rip off our customers, I know you'll pay more by buying direct than if you bought from us.)

If the designer binds himself to not sell to end-users, then the agent's on a good wicket whatever the buying price -- he knows he won't be in competition with the designer. And if his marketing is such that people know about him while they don't know about any of his competitors, or if his agency agreement allows him sole rights (so he has no local competitors,) then he can charge whatever he likes -- as much, in fact, as he thinks the market will bear.

And in so doing he does a disservice to his clients and possibly also to his supplier.

Yes Midge, you're quite right in saying there's no such thing as a free lunch. But if you're an agent like the one I've just described, your lunches can be quite inexpensive....

Going on a bit further, you said, "It's too easy for the fringe dwellers who never provide sponsorship, provide minimal service, don't support local events or clubs, to live off the hard yakka of the ones that do, without needing the same overhead (or providing the same level of service)."

I confess I'm not quite clear about what you mean here. I take it when you refer to "fringe dwellers" you're talking about suppliers, not end-users? Are you saying that some suppliers live off the "hard yakka" of other suppliers, and that this hard yakka consists of providing sponsorship, providing a high level of service, supporting local events or clubs, and paying high overheads?

How does that work, exactly? How can one supplier's high overheads help support another supplier whose overheads are lower, for instance? Or how can one supplier's sponsorship of some sporting event or other help another supplier? Indeed, the total market might be made a little larger for all, but this is not some altruistically-intended outcome. Let me assure you that if a supplier spends a lot of money on up-market premises, or employs a lot of staff, or carries a large range of product, or if he sponsors some club or event, or even if he gives away freebies to all and sundry, believe me, the only reason is because he expects to recover his entire outlay and more in due course.

Now, if any of those comments of yours that I quoted earlier are aimed at my company (as I suspect,) then let me go on record by telling you that we don't provide sponsorship, we do support local events (http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/boatshows05/tooradin.htm),) we don't support clubs, we live off no-one's hard yakka but our own, and we provide a superlative, not a minimal, level of service (http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/testimonials/testimonials.htm).

You say, "From my rather limited observation, the blokes that charge slightly more in this business are the ones actively promoting the industry, providing the backup and support." I think perhaps you need to be a bit more specific here. What industry? The boating industry? the boatbuilding materials industry? the boat fittings industry? the boat design industry? What backup? Quality or service guarantees? Ours is ten years, no holds barred (http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/guarantee.jpg). What support? Our advice can be lengthy and detailed, but it goes on being free for simply ages.... :)

========

Gentle reader, the reason for this treatise is this. Midge has publicly posted here what I believe to be an erroneous and I might say cynical point of view about agents, agency agreements, and supplier competition. His views appear to be designed to stop people looking round for good-value pricing. But if you don't shop for good value -- whoever you are, and whatever it is you want to buy -- but settle for the first thing you come across with whatever price-tag it has, then you're doing yourself and the rest of us a disfavour because you're discouraging competition.

The other issue is that you generally (not always) get a better deal from a smaller company, because to them your business is relatively more important than it is to a big company. Unless the small concern is having a closing-down sale you can be sure they won't want to sell to you at a loss; but you can also be sure that they're not loading their prices to cover all those huge overheads or wonderful advertising campaigns like the sponsorships Midge talked about. Shop around, and you'll help keep all of us honest.

=========

And having now said my piece, I'll conclude by saying that I'll happily respond privately (although not here) to anyone who wants to discuss this further. Feel free to send a PM or email.

Mike
.

Mike Field

9th July 2006, 06:27 AM

G'day Michael,

Thnaks for your comments. I agree that having a (written) contract might be irrelevant. Indeed, a handshake usually works fine with me. I have about seven agency agreements (both ways) and each one is based on a handshake only. They're only enetered into with people I'm inclined to trust in the first place, of course.

Since we're talking about Duck Flat, I need to tell you that while I haven't always seen eye-to-eye with the way Rob Ayliffe goes about things, I'm in no doubt that he has a good business and provides a good service. I don't know the price he charges for that service though, so I can't comment on its value (except that judging by the figures quoted earlier it seems like it's a bit higher than it might be.)

And yes, I know about Goolwa and DF's sponsorship and Iain's presence there. (Indeed I was there myself, and talked to Iain for a little about this and that -- as I say, he's a very nice bloke.) So I have no argument with you about DF's contribution to building the industry or their business. Good luck to them.

Nevertheless, I stand by my point that competition's good for everyone. When you get down to a small oligopoly, or worse, a monopoly, levels of service fall. (Think of your local grocery store. Now it's either Woolworth's or Coles, their products are the same, and their prices are identical -- and high.) That's really the key point I was trying to make. And I think that's how the world is made a worse, less diverse, and less interesting place.

Now, as to discounting plans. I don't know how your own arrangements work of course, but I will only act as an agent if I can be given a large enough discount to be able to sell just below the producer's RRP and still make a margin. And I treat my agents exactly the same way. The theory behind this is that if they can find customers for me, and if they do all the middleman work associated with that, then my discounted price to them is a form of payment for their services. (I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to go out of his way to sell my product for no return, as I'm sure you wouldn't.)

I think David thinks much as I do -- at least we've discussed it in some detail. I think he'd rather an agent (or several) do some of his marketing for him in order to let him get on with designing, than do both himself. It means his margins on agent's sales are less, but so are his overheads on achieving them. And if agents can produce additional sales through their own efforts (as I have, and as Duck Flat has) then the principals make additional money -- additional over and above what they would have made on their own, because for whatever reason the agent has been able to gain new customers that they wouldn't otherwise have had. This seems to me to be perfectly equitable.

If people are going to, say, David directly, then it's because they know of him. That means he's been doing some marketing (Duck Flat over again.) That in turn means firstly, he hasn't been designing, and secondly, he's been spending some money to do the marketing. Using an agent need not at all cut his profits -- in fact, it might actually increase them. If I can find David a customer for his plans that he wouldn't otherwise have had (say Shane buys Paketi's plans because he knows of them through me, but if I hadn't have told him he'd have bought a set of GlenL's) then both David and I can be better off.

So I can't really agree with your later comments. Yes, ther are only so many people wanting to build so many boats, and you can't conjure new customers out of thin air. But what you can do is to make sure they know about your plans. The choice will still be theirs, but they can't decide to buy your plans if those plans aren't in their decision set because they've never heard of them, or perhaps you. But if I can tell them about your plans, then those plans can be in their decision set. (Whether they then buy or not will depend on how well your plans satisfy their needs, of course.)

I agree with you about designers being poorly-paid. I think almost everyone is, who works with wooden boats. It's the price we pay for doing what we love, unfortunately. Robert Towsend (Avis CEO) once asked, rhetorically, that if you're not working at what you do for either love or money, then what the hell are you doing it for? And since there's so little money in wooden boats, one assumes that those who work in the field are doing it for love. It certainly applies to David and me, anyway. Maybe to you too?

Mike

bitingmidge

9th July 2006, 09:48 AM

No Midge, I'm not "slagging off at the opposition,"
Well Mike, I apologise, but how else was I meant to interpret:

I'm sorry to hear about that. But surely Rob hasn't got Iain stitched up too, has he? At that sort of price differential, it might be worthwhile getting back to Iain and explaining the situation again.
<snip>
If nothing works, then tell him he's going to miss out on some commission, because sure as hell you're not paying the extortionate price his agent wants

I guess when you say you deliberately didn't mention the company you thought that the name of it's high profile founder was fair game?

None of the rest of my was aimed at you personally (the bit about slagging off was!) and if I didn't make that clear enough when I said
(I have no bone to pick with Mike, other than the above and have had no dealings with him and he may indeed provide the best service in the country, I don't know.) Then I apologise for that too! I again confirm I have never met Mike, neither for that matter have I ever had any dealings with "Rob".

My thoughts are exactly that; thoughts, and unlike yourself, I haven't had the benefit of being up hours before dawn on this fine Sunday morning, so aren't any shape to add further to the debate... yet! ;) My motivation whenever I get into a stoush is threefold;

a) To think about the subject some more, and maybe learn something.
b) To have others think about the subject some more, and maybe learn something.
c)To get right under the skin of all who are not pure of heart, thought and deed. (No I'm not having a go at you, I really do use that as motivation!! :D )
d) At no stage do I seek to cause personal hurt, (unless the side of truth and justice seems threatened!)

I will PM you, and I will post further, as I think it would be a shame not to continue this discussion (and more importantly the thread hijack!).

So Mike, IF I had misread what I took to be your very pointed remarks, I'm sorry, and will continue the debate, if I didn't misread them, I'm not sorry and will continue the debate anyway.

Either way, I guess you've got to keep getting up at 4.30 am to read them eh? :D What do you do at that time of the morning? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Cheers,

P

bitingmidge

9th July 2006, 12:32 PM

Dingo: :D :D :D

Mike,

Thanks for bouncing back. The following may take a bit of reading, I hope I haven't snipped too much from your comments, again I stress when I say "you" I am not speaking of "Mike Field". None of this is targeted at you, (unless specifically noted) just he industry (and the customer) as a whole !:eek:

What I do know is that your repeated assertions that my company is in competition with the other one are unfounded. To the best of my knowledge, not one of our products -- or even our agents' products -- is on their product list, nor is any of their products on ours.
Well I made one assertion, and you said you were an agent for one Designer's Plans and that you sell them below list. I also know another mob that sell them, so there's a bit of new knowledge for ya!

We do have some agents for our products however, and we offer them significant discounts in order to encourage them to market our products for us. That's a very good way for an agency agreement to work -- it encourages the agent to sell on behalf of his supplier, which is good for both. And n a free market, market forces will determine the price at which the product sells, whoever is the seller.

As long as you are happy to position your product in a discount environment, that's fine. Eventually all your agents will be making so little that they'll come back to you for a reduced wholesale price, or stop stocking your stuff.

Do you know anyone that's ever bought a rug that wasn't on sale?

Whether in fact there is a free market in Oz for Iain's plans I don't know. There is a free market. The Trade Practices Act says so, and if I had a bone to pick, I'd have no hesitation in having the ACCC pick it for me.

The designer sets a price on his product at which he's willing to sell.
Yes, and under the Trade Practices Act is only able to RECOMMEND a price at which his agents can sell.

No agent can decide, on behalf of the designer, what the designer's selling price is going to be. He can only determine his own selling price.
Correct, and accordingly can use that selling price as a "loss leader", selling the plans at little or no margin, or even at a loss, in the hope that the customer will be so pleased at the price, he will buy all his material/fittings and other supplies from the agent.

This is one of the reasons that the plans-only agencies (whom I may inadvertantly have referred to as "fringe dwellers") do not undercut. They have to make their profit out of selling plans.

the designer is selling his own products in competition with his agent, then an agency agreement can only work properly if the agent knows at what price the designer is selling to end-users, and at what price he himself can buy from the designer, for on-selling. The arrangement works because the producer forgoes some profit in return for having some marketing, sales, and client-management undertaken by the agent.
And in exchange for the forgone profit, the designer in turn receives substantially more exposure, thereby hopefully consolidating his market position. Legally the designer has no ability to prevent undercutting, and can't even refuse to supply agents who do, but that practice does have an impact on the designer's business, whether he is concerned about it or not.

If the designer sells direct to end-users, then an agent will only want to be involved if his buying price is such that he can undercut the designer's price to end-users (should he want to) and still make a profit.
You see, that's the only bit I have real problems with - why undercut? Who is going to provide the after-sales service?

I think you described some of my previous comments as cynical, (I do that well) but undercutting in this way is in my view about as cynical as one can get! The messge it is sending is that the design is not quite right, maybe it's a bit old hat, in anycase it's not up to being sold for it's true worth, so come in and pick one up from the bargain bin. It's an end of season clearance mentality, and it doesn't do the industry any favours at all.

Otherwise of course people will buy direct from the designer.
You see, I don't agree with you. Daddles has said it above, in the long haul, people will buy from where they get the best service.

Providing the agent provides adequate support he'd have no shortage of customers. A $10 saving on a plan purchase doesn't pay for much telephone time does it?

Yes Midge, you're quite right in saying there's no such thing as a free lunch. But if you're an agent like the one I've just described, your lunches can be quite inexpensive
That's my point. I'd rather deal with someone who can provide the full roast and three veg. I'm tired of toasted cheese on yesterday's bread!

Stay tuned for the next instalment!

cheers,

P

bitingmidge

9th July 2006, 12:57 PM

Going on a bit further, you said, "It's too easy for the fringe dwellers <snip>
I confess I'm not quite clear about what you mean here. I take it when you refer to "fringe dwellers" you're talking about suppliers, not end-users?

I was indeed referring to suppliers (AGAIN I STRESS NO T YOU) however there are many customers who work in the reverse principal as well, using the services of those who provide them, then scarpering off to save the price of a cup of tea at the end of the day. I'm sure you know them well.

Are you saying that some suppliers live off the "hard yakka" of other suppliers,
yes

and that this hard yakka consists of providing sponsorship, providing a high level of service, supporting local events or clubs, and paying high overheads? In part, but whatever the detail of the hard yakka, the result is that some suppliers through their reputation , effort and money have what the marketing people call "top of mind awareness" and the spinoff from their efforts supports the rest of the industry. A bit like the little fish cleaning up below the shark feeding frenzy really, and that's how nature works, but when the feeding frenzy finishes where do either find their food?

How does that work, exactly? How can one supplier's high overheads help support another supplier whose overheads are lower, for instance?

I'm happy to go further, but it's a bit hard in this format, are you ever up this way?

Now, if any of those comments of yours that I quoted earlier are aimed at my company (as I suspect,) THEY WERE GENERIC NOT AIMED AT YOUR COMPANY, I have stated before, but will repeat that I have not to date had dealings with your company, have not met you, and have no axe to grind with you or your company, and do not wish for any of this discussion to reflect apon either. Hopefully that is clear.

cheers,

P
(One more and my turn at the computer is done!)
:D :D :D

bitingmidge

9th July 2006, 01:32 PM

Midge has publicly posted here what I believe to be an erroneous and I might say cynical point of view about agents, agency agreements, and supplier competition. More an observation than a point of view I would have thought, but no matter.

His views appear to be designed to stop people looking round for good-value pricing. But if you don't shop for good value -- whoever you are, and whatever it is you want to buy -- but settle for the first thing you come across with whatever price-tag it has, then you're doing yourself and the rest of us a disfavour because you're discouraging competition.
No I'm actually trying to ENCOURAGE people to look for good value pricing, and agree entirely with your sentiments.

GOOD VALUE DOES NOT MEAN CHEAP. It means provides the best VALUE, and that means gives the best service and at the end of the day the best outcome.

For a short time many years ago I was involved in the boating industry. I was astounded with one "fringe dweller" customer, who was building a 40' catamaran and kept asking complex and detailed questions about structure and rig. I asked him why he wasn't talking to the designer and he informed me that he'd bought the plans for $40!!! Great value? This bloke of course didn't buy any thing from me,(nor other suppliers I knew at the time) after wasting weeks of collective time, he went to a wholesaler after he'd got all the free advice he needed.

At the same time, I'd built a smaller boat from plans bought from a designer that Wild Dingo won't deal with because he's too expensive. Yes, I paid a lot. The plans enabled me to build a very fast, very efficient, very desirable boat with no construction issues, and yes I did get to know that designer very well as well. I was able to sell the boat at a premium, partly because of the "name", and actually realised close to double the price of a similar sized boat by another "good value" designer.

Who got the best value. Mr $40.00, or Mr $12,000.00?

Never mistake price for value, be wary of anyone offering a discount for design services, (except me :D) it has to be paid for somewhere.

The other issue is that you generally (not always) get a better deal from a smaller company, because to them your business is relatively more important than it is to a big company. Unless the small concern is having a closing-down sale you can be sure they won't want to sell to you at a loss; but you can also be sure that they're not loading their prices to cover all those huge overheads or wonderful advertising campaigns like the sponsorships Midge talked about. Shop around, and you'll help keep all of us honest.

If by small you mean say a few staff and a "family style business" I'd probably tend to agree however the size of a business has absolutely no bearing on it's ability to provide service or consistent pricing. The quality of it's management does that.

Take a look at how many small guys come and go. They go because they haven't got a clue whether they are selling at a profit or not. They don't understand that there is more to being in business than buying something for a dollar and selling it for two. They don't understand, nor do they question the longer term impact of their pricing structures on their industry, business or future, as long as they've covered this week's cost.

(The ones that survive obviously have a better understanding!)

The reality is that the bigger the company becomes, the smaller the margin, but at the same time it benefits from volume and can provide all of the service things at the same or less cost than a very small one.

A sole operator working on a 50% Margin gets to keep 50%, but he has to keep selling too. The big guy may only keep 5%or 10%, but the bigger turnover gives him the slack to provide all the other bits, and because he relies on a larger volume.

Shop around as Mike says, and ONLY deal with the honest guys who give the best value!

'll conclude by saying that I'll happily respond privately (although not here) to anyone who wants to discuss this further.

Mike, this has probably got a little out of hand, but hope it isn't too over the top. As I have said half a dozen times, it's not an attack, but I don't have any problems continuing on the forum.

Otherwise it'll have to be over a coffee sometime!

cheers,

P
:D :D :D

bitingmidge

9th July 2006, 01:34 PM

How's the score going in the longest-winded post yet?

Wild Dingo
BoatMik
Mike Field
bitingmidge

All have to be in contention, but I can't pick a winner!

:D :D :D

P

Boatmik

9th July 2006, 01:42 PM

:DWanting the design? I mean come on Mik!! You of all people must know that building a boat is nothing if its not an EMOTIONAL thing!!... emotion and compromise = boat!

Hi Dingo1

That's how I reasoned through it!

That it is emotional and not really price based - unless like that American agent you are charging double.

Then the emotions run the other way very quickly!!!!

MIK

bitingmidge

9th July 2006, 02:43 PM

There are no rich OZ designers - either we are happy living in near poverty or have to work other jobs to keep going financially. All are battlers.

I'm guessing Iain Murray lives near poverty. Well it's just the other side of the harbour and out a bit further!

:D :D :D

P

Boatmik

9th July 2006, 04:06 PM

Hi All,

My tone is not going to be quite as detached as Peter's view of Mike Field's postings - at least at the beginning of this - because Mike continues to misrepresent his position and also has a misunderstanding about the nature of the business.

So please be clear I am dealing with the misrepresentation and then the misunderstanding - not with the quality of the man or his business.
____________________________________

Mike,

We are not in competition with that company (whose name I deliberately refrained from mentioning, I might point out.) For the record, we do not sell Iain's plans. Nor have we ever done so. Nor have we ever sought to do so.

What I do know is that your repeated assertions that my company is in competition with the other one are unfounded. To the best of my knowledge, not one of our products -- or even our agents' products -- is on their product list, nor is any of their products on ours.
By your own admission you are selling some of the same plan lines and have compared your business to theirs in your posts. You have compared your plans pricing policy on plans to theirs and declared theirs to be inferior to yours..

Of course you are a competitor. You can't attempt to take the middle ground on this - to attempt to be the sweet unbiased voice of reason - you blew that in your first post which was not sweet at all - streight for the jugular as I remember.

I don't know. It would depend on the terms of his agency agreement, one of which might restrict him from selling his own plans here. (That's what I suggested Bloggsy might like to find out.)

But surely Rob hasn't got Iain stitched up too, has he?
If you want to know - find out yourself. Don't make a public deal to get someone else to do it and imply at the same time that something underhand is going on.

As I said previously - it is Iain that holds all the cards - he can do anything he likes - and he made the decision - but you use the opportunity to slag off DF and promote your own position.

Play the man that made the decision.

so I can't comment on its value (except that judging by the figures quoted earlier it seems like it's a bit higher than it might be.)
You say you can't comment and then you do.

See Midge's post - I suspect you have little idea of the real costs involved in selling plans - and won't be around long unless the other parts of your business are supporting the plans side. Start logging the time you spend talking to clients about plans and see what that costs you. If it starts to build up you will have two choices - either start charging for it one way or another - or not offer your "superlative" service quite so much.

Since we're talking about Duck Flat, I need to tell you that while I haven't always seen eye-to-eye with the way Rob Ayliffe goes about things,
Robert Ayliffe has nothing to do with DF now - he has set up NISboats and has no interest or ongoing participation in Duck Flat.

And why do you NEED to tell me that you don't see eye to eye with his methods

I have the profoundest respect for Robert - and I don't always see eye to eye with him either. But in your case you seem to be attempting undermine his name and presence by casting doubt in the reader's mind as to his character and actions

Or how can one supplier's sponsorship of some sporting event or other help another supplier? Indeed, the total market might be made a little larger for all, but this is not some altruistically-intended outcome.
I think this is your basic problems

You can't see that altruism and business can go together.

Anyone who has got to know me through these forums will know where I stand. I believe that business and altruism are natural partners - and I operate that way right down the line.

Yes - I don't even expect to make a buck. But I have been able to survive so far

Everyone here knows that I have plugged other designers and plugged other peoples products, and struggle hard not to slag off the opposition or cast doubt on their integrity - this is altruism mixed with business.

I understand that for every person who I can get involved in this boat building lark it expands the industry. I may never make a buck directly from that person.

I was the first full time employee of DF back in the days when it was two of us freezing in a tin shed back of Robert's house in Mt Barker. I worked with Duck Flat for many years and continue to have a relationship with Duck Flat because they share that same ethos.

I don't CARE whether people buy plans from DF, David, Iain, you or someone else. All I care about is that people find a supplier that meets their needs and will deal with them honestly and fairly and help them as much as they need.

I dont CARE if they buy one of my plans or someone else's. All I care about is that they get involved and find a boat that is designed well and will do what they want - if it is a rewarding experience then it grows the industry.

I want EVERYONE to do well - and that's why I will never slag off another business or cast doubts about its integrity.

one supplier's sponsorship of some sporting event or other help another supplier?
"some sporting event" somewhat underplays it - don't you think.

Clearly you are a new-comer to this part of the industry or haven't looked very far outside your own area of self-interest.

You clearly have no idea of the amount of work that Robert Ayliffe, Rob Denney, Ian Smith, John Young, Arnie Duckworth, John Wood, Nick Masterman (bless you Nick), Bruce McConkey, Ian and Kathy Hawkins, the various staffs at AABB and many others have done so there is an industry here for you to enjoy being a part of.

You also have no idea of the interrelationships between this group and how we have all been helping each other in quite direct ways.

Not one of these people is rich or even close to it. They have all sweated blood for this industry - many have put their houses and family life on the line - and prayed like hell that their idea to make things grow was the right one at the right time.

David, me, and heaps of other designers wouldn't be around at all if it wasn't for all their efforts and Duck Flat have been a huge proportion of it. Ask David some time.

So you wouldn't be selling David's plans if it wasn't for them.

Boatmik

9th July 2006, 04:10 PM

I'm guessing Iain Murray lives near poverty. Well it's just the other side of the harbour and out a bit further!

:D :D :D

P

Damn it - got me ...

Um well ... different market segement?

I suppose he will sell plans for a boat for a couple of hundred dollars? Yes? No?

MIK

bitingmidge

9th July 2006, 05:06 PM

Damn it - got me ...

Um well ... different market segement?

I suppose he will sell plans for a boat for a couple of hundred dollars? Yes? No?

Last conversation I had with him was something along the lines of him giving himself an uppercut before he undercut..... :D

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

Boatmik

9th July 2006, 05:18 PM

Last Conversation I had with him was him asking me whether he could park his immaculately restored VW Beetle in the Vice Commodore's parking spot for 10 minutes.

No, sorry Mr Murray (it was in my 5 year break from design and I was driving a Tender in Rushcutter's Bay as well as watching the parking area like a hawk).

He was terribly nice about it.

The time before that was lugging his girlfriend's 420 (one of the heaviest dinghies for it's size - AND theres nowhere to hold comfortably - my boat at the time was a Moth) across about 200 metres of mudflats at The Spit in Sydney.

It was such a crap gig I had to keep making comments about how heavy the boat was the whole way.

He was terribly nice about it.

Afterwards ...

Was that Iain Murray?

Well, the Porsche had "IM" numberplates and a towbar.

So, yes, Iain Murray - Maaaaaaaaaaaaate

MIK

Mike Field

9th July 2006, 05:24 PM

Well, this seems to be getting a bit out of hand. No sooner do Peter and I settle our diferences, at least up to a point, than Michael chimes in again. It's a bit difficult keeping up....

Michael, this is what I'd written before your last post, which clearly now deserves a further reply -- but I don't dare wait to write it, or there'll be something else to reply to again in the meanwhile.

You said --
"[Iain] deserves equal criticism - but I don't see any from you - or dingo or Mike."
"Criticism" in the sense that it's his actions that may have contributed to higher-than-perceived-warranted prices. But they're Iain's plans, so really you can't criticise him for selling them at whatever price he wants to. Or make any agency arrangement he wants with whomever he wants to negotiate one. (Unless of course it precludes the agent from having to compete with anyone, when it's illegal.) If as an end-result of his bargaining process with agents he does himself out of customers (or even prices himself out of business,) then that's just a natural commercial consequence. And sad for us, because then we'd no longer have access to his drawings.

(By the way, this unfortunate end-result has occurred in recent years for people wanting to buy Maurice Griffiths' plans (albeit it's happened for different reasons.) The Eventide Owners' Group (http://www.eventides.org.uk/) in the UK has done stirling things in locating a few of the plans, but many of them seem now to have gone for good -- really sad for those who wanted to build an MG design and now can't.)

Your argument about cost-recovery is quite right. It's things like the ones you mentioned, plus the ones I mentioned myself, that have to be covered by an agent's margin if they're going to be agents at all. And if the producer of the product wants an agent to work on his behalf he would normally expect to pay the agent by discounting his price to him. This is what agency is all about. If it's not worth the agent's while why would he take it on?

Different agents have different views of what is worth their while. Going back to an earlier point, those who have big overheads and big on-costs need to make a bigger margin to cover them and still make a profit. But at some point along a sliding scale, they can't keep recovering all their costs from the producer or there'll be nothing left for him. So they do it from the customer -- which is when the prices start to go up. And depending on their market clout, what competition if any exists, and what value the potential customer places on the product, then either they'll continue to sell the product or they won't.

In the final analysis, the producer makes the decision at what price to sell to the agent to handle sales for him, and whether he will tie his own hands by agreeing to not sell in competition. Those are rightly his decisions to make, and whatever consequences flow from them are rightly his to bear.
___________

A note on so-called undercutting

The word "undercuttng" clealry has emotional overtones for some people, so let me explain what I mean by it and see if I can't convince you that "undercutting the RRP" can in fact be perfectly legitimate, open, and above-board, and that the designer can make extra profit thereby.

As I've said before, the designer sets his price, to whomever he wants, at whatever level he wants. Let's say you're a designer who can produce your plans for $250, and would like to sell them retail (ie to end-users) for $500. (Clearly I'm over-simplifying, especially regarding design production costs, but it will serve to illustrate the argument.) So you set up shop, and for every customer who walks in your door and buys you make $250 profit. And let's say for argument's sake that you produce a steady supply of customers at the rate of one a week who each pay you your $500 RRP. Then your weekly profit is $250.

The first question that strikes you is, "How do I get more customers to walk through the door?"

So suppose you strike a bargain with an agent you trust, whereby you sell him your plans for only $350, hoping that in return he'll be able to increase sales for you. Note -- the designer's price is now $350, and it was the designer who set it. It's not the $500 RRP that he charges someone who walks in off the street. And he accepts that his profit margin on sales to the agent is going to be $100, not the $250 it would be from his own retail sales. This is still a profit -- just a smaller one -- and the agent has not taken advantage of him because it was the designer himself who asked for (and got) that price.

Now suppose further that this agent finds a new end-user and sells a set of plans to him for $450. This is $50 less than the designer's RRP, granted. And you could say that the RRP was being undercut. But the designer hasn't been undercut. He got the price he asked -- $350 -- which gave him a profit.

Okay, why would he sell to an agent for $350, thereby undercutting his own RRP and the profit he could make by selling at it? Well, extending our scenario a little further, suppose that the agent's marketing produces just one additional customer for the plans each week. Then the agent has earned both himself and the designer $100 profit a week each. And the agent's client has saved $50 into the bargain. Everybody has won something (except the RRP customer -- but even he hasn't lost anything.)

Here I have to use the life-insurance salesman's disclaimer: obviously I can't guarantee any of the figures. The prices are probably wrong and the sales figures certainly are. But the principle is perfectly correct, and it's what drives agency agreements. No player -- including the designer -- need lose anything. Most players -- including the designer -- will win something.
___________

And I'm afraid the rest will have to wait. Suffice it to say at the moment that I've noted Michael's post and that I'm in agreement with some of his comments, but also that in some cases I think his statements are incorrect and his judgments wrong. I'll give a considered answer when I get a chance.

Mike

Boatmik

9th July 2006, 05:41 PM

Who do you support?
The bloke who's going to give you the best service.

Theoretically, I'd rather buy from the designer - he gets all the money and as Mik has said, he deserves it
I disagree. I send customers to my agents all the time - pretty much for the reason Mike pointed out that agents will handle almost all queries about building the thing and also make serious efforts to expand my business.

I also sell plans directly - particularly when turnover drops (like for the 5 weeks at the onset of winter) so more of the smaller amount of money heads my way.

The designer (me) goes into these arrangements with dealers because it is good for him.

He (me) wants these agents supported.

It is also good for the customer - there is a real limit to the number of enquiries that I can handle properly - and when the dealer sells a plan he gets the responsibility - who also stands a chance of selling some ply or epoxy.

So Richard - I disagree mostly.

I might DESERVE 100% of the plan price but I DON'T WANT IT. You and others get my personal service because our relationship is established or because you have a custom request. And if I don't know SOME of my clients directly I'll go nuts - might as well be in a padded cell.

HEY I AM IN A PADDED CELL!!!!

MIK

Wild Dingo

9th July 2006, 06:40 PM

And there in those last few posts from all three of you is why I dont enjoy discussing price... pricing structures... agents commissions... designers commission etc etc etc seems every time it comes up a whole lot of angst and personal attack happens... setting good people against other good people for no good reason over subjects that we personally cannot change.

I like you all... Mike Ive known the longest well over 5 years now and weve shared an immense amount over that time both boat related and personal simply put hes a mate and a good one... Mik Ive known for not so long probably about a year or two eh? but still we share a common bond a love of boats and our varying ecclectic tastes seem to match weve grown to like each other and have respect for each other again a mate... Midgey is my nemisis... well I take the git that way! :D hes the bloke that sits in the corner egging you on taking you to task havin a go at you for slackin of... good things that one needs from time to time... but still Midgey is probably the most recent that Ive come to know and still I maintain a friendship with him...

I refuse to take any sides in this "discussion" as I like all three of you... I disagree with you all on some level yet agree with you all on others... that to me is the ideal wherein you can agree to disagree and leave it at that without loosing a friendship over something none has control of... and hence why I dislike and discourage discussion over pricings of plans from designers and agents... from my own point I would prefer to source the price that best suits my budget at the time if that is from the designer so be it if however I can get then from an agent cheeper then thats where I will get them... if however one or the other is rude arrogant insulting or otherwise a pain in the ass I will say something regarding that... as I will for anything ie: Timbecon awhile back... it behoves anyone who is selling or an agent to sell anything to treat their customers and potential customers with respect dignity and common courtesy... in the manner of onselling plans from another company in another country it certainly doesnt behove them to jack up the price simply based on being in Aussie!... well not if they want my money it doesnt... same with designers... treat people with respect and common decency and you will do well dont and its over before it starts.

I did that with Wharram... I did not like the attitude of the Aussie distributor so I contacted Ruth direct from their site and after several contacts with her wherein I explained my experiences with the bloke down here I bought them from her... no problem no issue end of story... the distributor lost out... but see there would have been no need for him to do so if he had simply treated me the prospective customer with respect and courtesy... as for the agent for ClarkCraft here well in that case both ClarkCraft AND their agent lost out since after the attitude displayed to this potential customer I said "stuff you jack" and took my money elsewhere... does that bother me? not the slightest it should I guess since theres a dirth of power cat designs of the 19 -22ft range out there but I wont accept abuse which I consider rudeness and attitude the height of from anyone who would sell something to me.

Anyway... This is an intrinsic problem with the net in that its written... and so being its easy to take offence at... read the wrong things into and generally get upset with something someone says... and its the reason why so many people get into so many friggin arguments on the net... its hard to clearly define what you want to say without going into a bloody long winded expaination of every friggin word you say... lest someone takes something you say out of context.

Please let us stop this bickering! You are all right and yet you are all wrong... on some level accept it shake hands and come out mates :cool:

bitingmidge

9th July 2006, 06:44 PM

The first question that strikes you is, "How do I get more customers to walk through the door?"
I guess the thrust of my argument is that you can also do this to attract more custom:

http://www.lowculture.com/archives/images/gitmo_biz.jpg

Same thing, same message to your customers in the long run. Teach them to buy when there's a sale on, and that's the only time they'll buy.

Do you know anyone that pays full price for a Pizza? Nope.

The undercutting business is so strong that they've set themselves a permanent discount situation.

Why would the bloke at the local snack bar sell you a soft-drink at lunchtime at a discount? He wouldn't. So why do you think discounting plans increases sales?

Woo hoo, I can save $50 on the plans now honey, NOW we can afford to build that $30,000 boat!

Sorry Mike, that's one we'll never see eye to eye on! (But I'll buy from you next time of course! ;) )

Cheers,

P (If you need a coupon, I've got a few spares you can have!)

pic stolen from: http://www.lowculture.com/

bitingmidge

9th July 2006, 06:51 PM

Please let us stop this bickering! You are all right and yet you are all wrong... on some level accept it shake hands and come out mates :cool:
Hey Shane! That's what makes an argument worth while!

If it all gets taken personally then no-one's learnt a thing. If there are three points of view here (and I can only see one, the others are wrong!), as you say to an extent they overlap, some will agree others won't, but at least those that haven't thought about the issue will have been exposed to it, so all will learn a bit.

I'm certainly trying to impress on consumers that there's more to keeping a retailer alive than buying at sale time, and at the same time think retailers should be looking to the next sale, not the one in hand!

If we weren't so deep in argument, we'd only have to put up with your next ideal boat description anyway! :D :D :D

I think I'm about through with it anyway, but thanks for the prod.

cheers,

P
:D

bloggs1968

9th July 2006, 07:07 PM

I've read quite a few posts from Dingo and I reckon that would be one of the most eloquent yet.

Well put.

AD

Daddles

9th July 2006, 07:23 PM

I've read quite a few posts from Dingo and I reckon that would be one of the most eloquent yet.

Well put.

AD

Don't flamin' encourage him :rolleyes: :D

Richard

Boatmik

9th July 2006, 07:50 PM

The first question that strikes you is, "How do I get more customers to walk through the door?"

A very fine question that.

If you bring the idea of building a boat to someone and you strike them as an honest, positive and helpful person they will come to you.

Why would they ever go to someone else?

Also if the designer (me) considers you to be doing a good job he will send people your way too - because generally we don't have the manpower to deal with too many requests.

So to get more people through - you have to expand the industry and every one you gain - providing you deal with them properly will be with you for life. And their friends, workmates, kids etc.

I have seen it all happen with the growth of Duck Flat in the early days.

Of course it wasn't quite as perfect as that - there were difficult customers, poor quality batches of material, transport damage - all the normal stuff. But every time you work through problems with an irate client there is a good chance they will end up being one of your best clients ever.

Midge and Mike know this because they are in the industry or have been and know just how loyal clients can be. Many of the rest of you know this because of your own business involvement.

In the end discounting doesn't win you any loyalty whatsoever - most of your clients will drop away as soon as someone offers the same thing cheaper.

What's to stop me offering all of David's plans for $10 over his wholesale price? I promise you it won't increase David's business sales volume one little bit - But I would end up with just about all of the business from the bargain hunters on this forum and the general marketplace.

Pizza Wars as Midge says.

What increases business is as MIke says - being proactive - getting out there - thinking of ways to engage people's interest. Have a look at my website or see what I write on this and other forums - it is all about engaging and enthusing people.

Building trust, building relationships - building the industry. There is no quick answer.

So in the end - maybe just a couple of years down the track some corner - or even a substantial slice can be yours.

Best Wishes to all (hmmm I have forgotten to write that a few times recently - but youse know I loves you all)

Michael Storer

Boatmik

9th July 2006, 08:24 PM

Disparities in Agent's Pricings

We would not have been having the discussion before if those lazy designers had been making sure that their agents charge more or less the same prices.

But I know what they (we) are like - we actually are other worldly - quite ethereal beings. Oughtred (contact by mail only for many years - and look at all the ways he has spelt his surname over that time) Bolger (same with mail contact only) David Payne (one of the sweetest quietest human beings I have ever met - at least when I used to run into him at boatshows) and myself (well, I will answer the phone if I really have to).

Most of us are really poor at watching the business side of things.

After all we are not like Bruce Farr or Iain Murray - we are Artists! :-)

So we make agreements with different agents here and there at different times with slightly different agreements, we forget how exchange rates might change things over time as the OZ$ varies between 62 and 78 cents (a 25% veriation).

We just tend to let sleeping dogs lie rather than contact the US agent and tell him the new US$ wholesale price.

We would much rather be playing around with a sheerline - mmmmmmmm - is that just right - aaaaaaaaammmmmmmm or just gasbagging about boats.

In the past it didn't matter. A potential customer would have had NO idea who the agents were in the USA or Bolivia and there would be no way of people knowing the prices that were being charged.

And even if they did KNOW the pricings overseas they would be reluctant to send money to some bloke in the USA or Bolivia just to save a dollar or 45. It was just simpler and easy to buy it from the local guy. Not to mention the dollars that you had to fork out then for priority airmail or the interminable wait for seamail. Not to mention the $25 for an overseas money draft and the wait in the bank queue to get it.

YOu could soak up a good half day organising that side of getting an overseas plan.

This has changed completely.

And the designers haven't realised the problems yet - that finally it is a global marketplace - and they have to actually think about how to manage this so none of their agents are disadvantaged (after all they want them to keep developing their local market as well).

And even though I find it hard to handle the winging about prices - god - how some of you winge - I can understand the confusion you feel and think that it shouldn't be there. After all it just makes it harder for you all just to come to the decision to buy the plans and get on with it.

Which is what designers really want.

Michael Storer

Wild Dingo

18th July 2006, 07:24 PM

Disparities in Agent's Pricings

After all we are not like Bruce Farr or Iain Murray - we are Artists! :-)

ooooooooohhh what an opening!! What an opportunity!! What an absolutely primo chance to take the Mikky outta Mik!! :D But no I will behave ;)

We just tend to let sleeping dogs lie rather than contact the US agent and tell him the new US$ wholesale price. and the audience mutters... Lazy buggars :p

And even though I find it hard to handle the winging about prices Wing?? whos winging?! I can barely walk let alone wing it anywhere!! flamin mongrel knee :mad:

- god - how some of you winge - ooh right take it out on us poor buggars what have to buy them from yous "ethereal" blokes! ooh thats okay just lay it all on us purchasers its our fault we wing and whinge and moan and groan... yeah its okay Mik mate we can take it!!... well in direct proportion to yous designer types who whinge and whine and moan and groan whenever someone wants to change this or that in your design oooh but thats okay... its the purchaser that "wing" :rolleyes: :D

I can understand the confusion you feel and think that it shouldn't be there. After all it just makes it harder for you all just to come to the decision to buy the plans and get on with it.

Soooooooo.... its not our fault after all eh? its actually... gasp... shock... heart pounding... total disbeleif!!... your fault??? :eek: designers in general that is ;)

Which is what designers really want.

Michael Storer

But Michael... what is it that designers really want?.. they want to fondle a nice sheer? draw a nice diagonal? tickle a wee transom? cuddle a sweet buttock or futtock? or sell plans of their designs?... personally I reckon theyre a totally mad and utterly confused bunch! :p

oh and mate? your not helpin at all!! theres more confusion in that post of yours than Ive ever posted!! AND THATS SAYIN SOMETHIN!! :D :D