PDA

View Full Version : Racing flatwater canoe rebuilding. Advice is needed.



Made in USSR
22nd June 2006, 09:52 AM
Well as I have 2 close friends here I am calm.:D
So, here is my story...
I am a canoeing coach. We have recently new boats which are a bit more narrow and faster so. Here are pics to describe the problem.
This is the old model-->

http://struerkajak.com/g/old/Delta_1.jpg

and this one with new shape-->

http://www.gatsunaev.com/foto/models7.jpg

I've taken the old boat, removed the deck and the stern, narrowed it, then I treated the bottom by the emery, put the boat into the river for couple days in order to make the veneer softer, then squeezed it and cut the boards up. Then I placed the deck back and glued it. Also I glued new inside laths. The stern is open at the moment.
Now as you can see at the pics - the nose and the stern are a bit higher than the middle of a bottom. In my case it turned at same level which is not good.
The question is - how can I raise the nose and the stern on this boat?
For instance if I place the boat into water again and while it wet then put it on the table and hang some weighs on the ends, will it help to reach the goal?
Really need any opinions or advices from profi guys here. Sorry for some poor english.

sinjin1111
22nd June 2006, 10:16 AM
I'm not quite sure what your asking exactly. But i feel if you think you can increase the rocker in your boat by socking in water. I doubt very much if you will get any movement at all. If you apply big enough loads at the stern and bow of your caone you will distort if to sure at the cost of the beam spreading. Either way i think you are just going get no where. I would simply take pattern off your existing hull if you like the general shape and go from there. I'm curious to know why in a flat water canoe you would want in the increase the heights at either end. I can understand you have very little bouyancy at the bow so maybe when you are really stretching forward to take deep strokes in the water the bow is diving in more than you would like.
It this the type where you kneel on the leg????
Anyway love the shape of your canoe. Maybe a tad more beam on LWL might be the go up forward.
Sinjin

bitingmidge
22nd June 2006, 10:22 AM
Firstly there's nothing wrong with your English!

I wish I could give you some words of wisdom, but don't worry, I reckon someoneo will be along shortly!

I happen to know a few blokes who know a bit about this stuff, so I'll try to rustle them up and get back too. It may take a day or two though, so please don't lose patience!

My first reaction would be to push out the beam a bit at the gunwhales (we've been talking about that on our Eureka canoe thread), but I imagine the boat is already built to the maximum beam?

cheers,

P:D

Bodgy
22nd June 2006, 10:55 AM
Welcome.

Your English is somewhat better than the spoken Russian of the other Forum members.

Boatmik
22nd June 2006, 12:32 PM
Hi Made in the USSR,

Looks like a Struer manufactured C1 (or is it a C2). The older boats are too wide (too much beam).

Basically what is needed
1/ Narrower beam at the widest point
2/ Minimum distortion of bottom shape.

From the top the boat is diamond shaped - this is so the maximum width is the same as the old rule.

The rule has changed. Now the boats can be narrower.

It is not necessary to use water to change the shape of the boat. The boat skin is very flexible.

This is what I would suggest to match items 1 and 2 above.

IT IS A RISKY PROCEDURE AND THE BOAT MAY NOT HAVE ANY VALUE AFTER

a/ Prepare
Attach a carefully shaped piece of timber along the middle of the bottom as shown in the top drawing attached below - this is so the rocker doesn't change. Rocker is the curve along the bottom of the boat.

The timber needs only be 20mm wide and probably 120mm deep.
Cut a curve along one edge of the timber that is the same as the curve of the rocker. It must be a very smooth curve with no bumps.

If you are working on the boat that has been soaked with water - use one of the other old boats to create the curve in the piece of timber.

Drill holes through the bottom of the boat along the centre about 400 mm apart.
Screw through the boat using 5mm diameter round headed screws with flat washers underneath their heads.

NOW THE ROCKER CANNOT CHANGE.

b/ Change width
To change the width of the boat you will need to cut a "V" shape out of the side like the top picture. I don't know what shape or length the cut will be. Go slowly. The two sides of the cut will have to meet perfectly when the side of the boat is pushed in.

To get the length of the cut have a careful look at the apex of the side of the boat. At deck level it is very sharp. As you move down the side of the boat it becomes softer. See where it disappears. The bottom end of the V will be near that point.

You will have to remove the timber at the top of the cut that holds the side skin of the boat in its original place. It is best to remove it then make new parts later. To allow enough flexibility it should be removed

To make sure the sides of the boat remain in a smooth curve you will have to use a batten which will curve evenly. A batten to suit this purpose will probably have to be approximately 20mm x 15mm by 2.5 metres long. you will need two - one for each side and one more to cut into smaller pieces.

Cut the "V slowly and carefully.

when you have it to the correct beam screw the battens in place. Screws must be more than 60mm away from the V. Perhaps you will have to use 6 screws for each batten. If the batten is too stiff you may have to reduce its cross section.

Put a string down the middle of the boat (on the top) to make sure it is the same on both sides.

Carefully check the V.

At the top it should be a smooth curve. Lower down it might not have a smooth curve from one side of the join to the other. If this happens cut the 3rd piece of batten into pieces about 600mm long. Screw them in place across the V. Screws must be a minimum of 60 mm away from the V.

As the screws get tighter and push the sides of the V together you may have to remove more timber from the V.

c/ Joining across the V on the inside
You will use fibreglass tape on the inside and outside of the boat to make the join permanent.

Remove all paint and varnish from near the V. The bare timber should be exposed for 50mm either side of the V and for 50mm below.

Put two layers of fiberglass tape on the inside the full length of the V plus about 25mm. First layer can be 50mm wide fiberglass tape. Second layer is to be 75mm wide glass tape. USE EPOXY TO SATURATE THE TAPE SO IT GOES CLEAR. The surface will look rough - wait for the epoxy to go tacky (NOT FULLY CURED) and put on a thin second coat. When that second is tacky put on a third coat. Now the roughness of the fabric should be less.

d/ Remake the inside structure that was removed
Decks and ends and structure across the VEE has to go back in the boat or be remade. DONT REMOVE ANY OF THE BATTENS FROM THE OUTSIDE - THE REPAIR IS NOT STRONG UNTIL THE OUTSIDE IS GLASSED.

You can remove the two top battens once the inside structure is back

e/ Fibreglass the outside of the hull
First all the battens on the outside of the hull need to be moved inside.

Remove one and screw it inside the hull. - use the existing screw holes that are in the hull.
Remove another and screw it inside the hull.

Remove the varnish or paint from outside of the hull. Same method as inside. Use sandpaper wrapped around a block to make the outside very smooth across the V.

Apply one layer of 75mm wide fibreglass tape on the outside. Apply additional coats until the weave of the glass is full.

f/ sanding the fibreglass ready for painting/varnish.
Remove the battens from the inside of the boat.

Fill the screw holes with a paste made from epoxy and wood dust.

The fibreglass need to be made smooth and flat.

It is important not to damage the fibreglass on the outside of the boat where it is over the V. Sand it lightly and carefully by hand. Then you can use a vibrating sander to smooth down the edges of the fibreglass.

The wood will be damaged easily. Keep the sander over the fibreglass and use the edge of the sander on the edge of the fibreglass.

When smooth enough paint or varnish according to the paint manufacturer's directions.

Remove the timber along the bottom of the boat and fill the screw holes.

g/ See how the boat works
This is where my advice leaves you. All the changes might result in a good boat - or they might not.

I would be grateful to hear news of the procedure and result.

[email protected]

Good Luck
Michael Storer
Michael Storer Boat Design

sinjin1111
22nd June 2006, 02:06 PM
Hi Mike, unless i missunderstand you. To cut a V in the hull are suggesting is impossible isn't it? Unless the V is cut to the very center of the keel. You can't expect to close the V back up and thus reduce the beam and at the same the scheer line length changes and that length changes for each water line.The rocker will also need to change to allow the gap to close. And how would get the hull back to fair i have no idea. If this a Struer the hull it is cold formed double diagonal monochue. So basically i think you just destroy the hull. I'm probably wrong in trying to understand your point of view if so forgive my missunderstanding.
Sinjin

Boatmik
22nd June 2006, 08:38 PM
Howdy Sinjin

The V will be much narrower than I have drawn - my guess is that it will be somewhere between 5 and 15mm wide at deck height.

Then the sides will be pushed in laterally. I have drawn an arrow in the first attached jpeg. As the sides are pushed in they will meet again. but the edge of the boat (deck edge = sheerline) will move inward AND UPWARD.

The reason I think it will work in the direction I suggest is that the hull shape is already distorted. If you look at a Streur or another canoe or kayak from that era they all have the same distortion - they come to an apex at deck level and the apex and its distortion disappears before it reaches the waterline.

ie the deckline has an apex but the waterline is beautifully fair (a perfect smooth curve with no apex).

Get a piece of paper and some sticky tape and make the paper into a cylinder. Cut a vee into the edge of the paper 50mm long and parallel with the axis of the cylinder and about 6mm wide at the edge. Then you can push the edges in toward the middle of the cylinder and they will meet again.

There will be some distortion at the apex of the cut, but by controlling the shape carefully as per the second jpg this can be minimised. The two sides of the V must meet at a tangent as in the drawing

The remaining distortion will be less than a couple of mm and can be sanded out.

If a record is kept of the shape of the "V" then it can be drawn on subsequent boats as a guide. Each boat will be a bit different so cut smaller than needed and adjust slowly until the desired result is reached.

I hope the drawings make it clearer.

I also did say that it had a chance of turning the boat into firewood - but it has been soaked and pushed around a lot already.

And I was quite specific above - IT MIGHT NOT WORK.

Michael

ghiokl
23rd June 2006, 09:29 AM
Thease are few pics to imagine more precisely of what am I talking so tiresome...:D

http://www.gatsunaev.com/foto/733.jpg

The regular old canoe and my victim. I was trying to make it as narrow as possible, even narrower than new boats. Stern here a little bit curved but this is OK it stretches in a line.

http://www.gatsunaev.com/foto/734.jpg

As you can see bottom is a straight line.

http://www.gatsunaev.com/foto/735.jpg

If you watch from this point it seems like the bow is inclined downward.

http://www.gatsunaev.com/foto/736.jpg

This is a real difference of the bow between original and mine.

Mike, any new suggestions?

Made in USSR
23rd June 2006, 08:18 PM
http://www.gatsunaev.com/foto/734.jpg


Mike, any new suggestions?
Still think I should cut the V here?

Made in USSR
23rd June 2006, 08:45 PM
I'm sorry for delay answering, there were some technical problems.

I'm curious to know why in a flat water canoe you would want in the increase the heights at either end. I can understand you have very little bouyancy at the bow so maybe when you are really stretching forward to take deep strokes in the water the bow is diving in more than you would like.

That's right that's why. It may loose the speed when it flat at the bottom.
What is this - bouyancy?



It this the type where you kneel on the leg????

Yep, this one called Canadian canoe.

johnc
23rd June 2006, 09:12 PM
That's right that's why. It may loose the speed when it flat at the bottom.
What is this - bouyancy?

Bouyancy is the thing that allows it to float. A screw top bottle of air will float because the bottle has bouyancy. Undo the top fill with water removing the air and the bottle has no bouyancy. Bouyancy can be provided by air tight compartments, cork, foam etc, it can also be provided by the hull if it is light enough and allows the boat to float.

I've built kyaks but this modification is way beyond my knowledge.

Does that answer the first question?

Regards, John.

Made in USSR
23rd June 2006, 09:42 PM
Does that answer the first question?
Regards, John.
Yep, Jonny thanks. I guessed that was it but I did not know that word and I did not find it even in dictionary...

As I know sprint canoeing is not popular in Australia, you like kayaks more(Nathan Baggaley, know him?) so no wonder people did not hear about thease boats. Though it is Olympic program sport.

johnc
23rd June 2006, 10:29 PM
Yep, Jonny thanks. I guessed that was it but I did not know that word and I did not find it even in dictionary...

As I know sprint canoeing is not popular in Australia, you like kayaks more(Nathan Baggaley, know him?) so no wonder people did not hear about thease boats. Though it is Olympic program sport.

I've tried the sprint canoes here, could never manage to stay upright in the things long enough to make it worth the effort so went back to the white water stuff. It's over 25 years since I last had a go at even white water.

Ramps
23rd June 2006, 11:05 PM
Fair enough that you couldn't find it in the dictionary... that's probably because it's spelt buoyancy when spelt correctly;)
Good work
gutsy effort

johnc
23rd June 2006, 11:48 PM
Fair enough that you couldn't find it in the dictionary... that's probably because it's spelt buoyancy when spelt correctly;)
Good work
gutsy effort

Bugger!

Boatmik
2nd July 2006, 01:16 AM
Still think I should cut the V here?
Hi,

You are wanting to go much further than I had thought.

It might be difficult to get the stability with such narrow beam.

And also the problem with the bow and stern becoming lower is not easy to resolve.

The purpose of my suggestion was as a method of reducing the "diamond shaped" view of the boat from above.

I wasn't thinking of how to reduce the beam (width) as much as you want too.
____________________________

Making the boats that narrow will always make the bow and stern go lower.

To correct the lowness the method would be to cut up the middle of the bow and stern for some distance and remove some timber. Then the two sides of the bow and stern can be pulled together and fibreglass taped.

But this is not a good idea
1/ the boats will end up shorter.
2/ it will change the shape of the bow. The Streur and other racing kayaks and canoes have very precisely shaped bows that minimise the spray pattern where the water first meets the moving boat. Changing that shape will result in more drag.

So - sorry USSR, I can't think of a good solution.

A different sort of solution is to use these beautiful boats in a seperate division of the racing - use them to get more people involved in the sport. They will be easier to keep upright than the new boats so might be good for training beginners

Sorry I can't help you directly with your problem.

Michael

Made in USSR
3rd July 2006, 03:17 AM
Hi,
You are wanting to go much further than I had thought.

No way Mike, no way. I should say that it is only my experiment, just to see what's gonna happen from this idea. I don't expect too much from it too. I'm just wondering what are professionals would say. And I am very gratefull to you for so much attention payed.



A different sort of solution is to use these beautiful boats in a seperate division of the racing - use them to get more people involved in the sport. They will be easier to keep upright than the new boats so might be good for training beginners

Michael

That's my goal and my the minimum program...