West or Bote Cote ... what's your poxy ... and why?

[Ramps]

Hi guys
after reading all the posts in the boat forums re poxy I have found that some prefer West and some prefer Bote Cote. Seems like West can harden harder:) and Bote Cotes claim to fame is no amine blush.

Not having used any:eek: poxy before and about to venture into a wooden strip canoe I am looking for ideas on which poxy ... and why it's your favourite.

Promise I'll post my progress and I promise I'll TRY to make it shorter than a Eureka canoe saga;) I happened to stumble upon (about 50 times ... thanks for the updates Midge ... honestly it has been a great journey:D ) but don't save the bottle of champers for the christening as it might be off by that time and you're not going to break it over the front of MY canoe.

[bitingmidge]

Gidday Ramps.

A long thread is a good thread! :D :D :D

BoteCote mostly because:

It's well priced
No Amine Blush
Great Service (I order direct from Loganholme and have it within 24 hours)

There's nothing wrong with WEST at all of course.

You don't need epoxy to glue the strips together either, just go for "yellow" PVA, it's all going to be encapsulated any way.

Cheers,

P:cool:

[Rocker]

Peter,

How does Bote Cote stack up against Techniglue simply as an epoxy glue for furniture making? I like Techniglue rather than West because Techniglue is a gel and so less messy than runnier epoxies (though I understand you can get a thickener for West - but perhaps that might detract from its strength). I have never used Bote Cote. A litre of Techniglue, plus 1/2 a litre of hardener, costs $63.

Rocker

[bitingmidge]

Techniglue is an ATL composite (WEST) product.

BoteCote have an equivalent product EPOX-E-GLUE which is a 1:1 mix, which is to my mind a little easier to mix in the glue consistency.

I haven't a clue how much but a phone call to Boatcraft Pacific 3806 1944 will give you the answer.

cheers,

P

[Rocker]

Thanks, Peter.

[Boatmik]

I like Techniglue rather than West because Techniglue is a gel and so less messy than runnier epoxies (though I understand you can get a thickener for West - but perhaps that might detract from its strength).

Rocker
Howdy Rocker,

My understanding is that any one to one epoxy mix requires quite big compromises to get the right amount of each component in the mix.

There are strength compromises to gain the convenience

The strongest glue is the one with the powder filler - assuming the powder has the right properties - you need a specialised powder filler for gluing.

It is hugely strong whichever epoxy you use. The powder adds hugely to the "Work to Fracture" (by increasing the nett surface that can absorb energy in case of cracking) increasing it manyfold making the mix harder, tougher and a right bu**er to sand. Or is that s**d? The powder has spikey particles which operate a bit like fibreglass in resin.

The powder required for filling dents and hollows is not spikey but made up of hollow balls of glass (Q-cels) or phenolic spheres (microbaloons) or secret plastic X (Ultra light filler). They make a mixture that is weaker, easy to sand and not particularly tough.

And that makes them easy to sand

MIK

[Boatmik]

Regarding Bote Cote and WEST

This is so much a non-question.

About a decade ago two of the Uni Engineering Faculties here did some tests on most of the epoxies available at the time.
______________________________

One measured the toughness of the epoxies by making a glass layup and then recording strain (stretch) as load was applied until the test piece broke.

Because the glass layups were the same it was a test of the properties of the epoxys.

WEST, Bote Cote and System Three trumped the whole field. In terms of the engineering measurement of "toughness" (ie how much energy can be absorbed before the sample breaks) they were miles ahead of the field.

They acheived it in different ways - which I won't go into as it is a pretty complex area - even for engineers.

If you wanted to draw a generalisation from the tests ...
You get what you pay for.
All the budget epoxies at the time were very poor performers.
_________________________________

The second lot of tests was to coat up thick pieces of ply with the verious epoxies and drop a heavy steel ball onto them from a predetermined height.

With the cheaper epoxies there were huge star cracks spreading over the whole surface - the whole surface was broken up - even where not contacted by the ball. When a crack started it just kept going.

Again Bote Cote, WEST and SYSTEM 3 all came out on top. With much smaller amounts of cracking and only in the area contacted by the ball.
_____________________________________________

So why do I use Bote Cote?

It is because I have been using it forever - I know it better than I know my own mother.

This is going to colour ANYTHING I say about the stuff.

I find it predictable.

WEST is not predictable to me because I don't use it often enough.

So this is why the comparison is meaningless.
__________________________

Another reason the comparison is meaningless - I almost never run into problems with Bote Cote - because of my experience.

I have also been involved in advising boatbuilders, running classes and selling the stuff.

Other people run into problems with all epoxies including Bote Cote.

Now is that the fault of the product or the fault of the user?
__________________________

So in the end it is almost impossible to get at the facts.
__________________________

Then if I should come up with a negative comment about WEST - how much are people going to think ... Ah, but he is so closely linked with Bote Cote and he is trying to boost business.

So I won't enter into this conversation apart from pointing out the verifiable scientific results above.
__________________________

Have fun with this topic but expect a lot of activity and not a lot of light.

And read my FAQs on epoxies in general - I have attempted to be reasonably even handed.

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/Faq/faqindex.html

MIK

[onthebeachalone]

I have used West for a couple of repair/rebuild projects (wouldn't go so far as to use the lofty term "restoration") and I liked it because of the flexibility it provided.
I had some areas where I wanted to impregnate some old plywood so I had some hope of new ply bonding to it.The runny epoxy served well.
I found it useful to coat sheets of new ply before cutting/fitting. Just spread it out with a scraper.
I needed a light, non-sagging, sandable filler for which I mixed in Wests "Microsphere" powder. (Boatcote and others claim this is a dangerous material due to risk of inhalation).
I also needed a strong gap-filling glue for which I mixed in Wests Microfibre blend. With either filler I could easily get exactly the consistency I needed. And change as I went along if necessary.I mixed small amounts as needed and found it very low-stress to work with as I could keep re-using the same container (a 450g Tuna tin) to mix in. I also used a ziplock plastic bag, with the corner cut off to dispense it efficiently, especially on long joins or fillets. Just mix in the Tuna tin, pour/scrape into the bag, Zip it up, cut the corner, and squeeze it out. (It's a real pain if the consistency is too thick and the hole to small 'cause if you squeeze too hard the zip pops open and you get a handful)
@#$:(%:confused:^&* :mad:)

The pumps seemed a really good way of getting accurate measurements.

In hot weather I kept the containers in the frig.

When I have used up my present supply of Wests I will try BoatCote as I have become aware that (at least locally in Brisbane) they provide a very high level of technical expertise and advice. Much better to rely on them, than listen to all the anecdotes that float around.

Hope this helps some... Trouble is, the more people you ask, the more opinions you'll get. :rolleyes:

[Daddles]

I've used both Bote Cote and West, and used them back to back as I had Bote Cote at home while I was doing my boat building course at TAFE which used West. Despite the non-amine wax of the Bote Cote, I prefer using the West, though I will experiment again with Bote Cote ... next time I'm buying and the stuff is available.

The big difference with the use is the fillers.

With Bote Cote, you get one filler for everything. It is gritty to use and a prize bastard to make nice fillets with because it is stiff and sticky and ... just horrid. It sets rock hard and what there is is what you're stuck with - you aren't going to sand that fillet smooth. I don't like the fillers and if the esteemed Bruce Mc (who makes the stuff) is reading, he might wish to consider this.

West has a number of fillers though I only use two of them - the 403 fibre filler for strong glue joints and the 411 micro balloons for nice, easy to sand fillets (and if I've got the numbers back to front, which I usually have, I apologise :rolleyes: ). In reality, it is rare for me to use one or the other - generally speaking, it'll a mix of some sort. For example, fillets are generally a half and half mix of the two. Particularly for filletting but in other applications too, the West is much nicer to work with (smooth and without that horrid toffee-like stickyness) and you've got a lot more sandability, particularly as you add more of the micro balloons.

If you are coating a surface with poxy, and use West, you will either have to wash it down with a scourer and ammonia first to move the blush, or clog up a lot of sandpaper. I've done both and will probably just go with the sander next time, not worry about the wash down, however, this is supposed to be a distinct advantage of Bote Cote though to be honest, I don't remember being very impressed with it when I had to sand it in the past. Memory does play tricks, but I honestly don't remember finding the Bote Cote any better ... perhaps because sanding a coated surface is such a horrid job anyway. I will see when it comes to testing.

The Bote Cote fillers are coloured, to match the timber - this wasn't an advantage for me because the closest coloured filler at the time looked nothing like the timber I was using. The West fillers are white ... which matches nothing, which really only becomes an issue when filling holes or making fillets in a area that won't be painted. However, you can add a bit of sawdust to the poxy to get the colour right, something I've done often with good effect though to be honest, it's not often I bother. For the PDs, I believe Midge was able to get a filler that colour matched well, but you'll need to ask him about that.

Which raises the question, what happens when you use the West fillers in Bote Cote:confused: I don't know, and it's one of the things I'll try when I buy Bote Cote again. I can't see why it shouldn't work and it might just answer my dislike of the Bote Cote system. It would also give me an amine free poxy which will then sand without clogging the life out of my sandpaper. I'll also be supporting an Aussie firm the deserves supporting. However, should I find that the fillers aren't compatable or that the filletting mix is still that horrid, sticky mess, I'd go back to West in an instant ... maybe saving Bote Cote for coating surfaces (which is where the amine blush is a problem, not in joints).

All in all mate, go to your local boat shop and support their product, be it West or Bote Cote. Afterall, you'll want to be racing in there to get stuff from time to time, but they won't be there if they have no customers (but it helps if your local shop is as good as mine - Binks).

Richard

[Ramps]

I don't mean this to be a thread finding which is best as like you say they're both great products.

I suppose I'm looking the the different characteristics to find which is the first product I'll try for my purpose.

So thanks guys for your opinions ... that's what I am after ... and thanks Mik for your non-comparison...at least it had some info on what not to use, even though I wasn't considering anything but these two (only omitting System 3 cos I haven't found it available around here)

So far

West
Cures harder
Is naturally a thinner product (better for working into the cloth) but can be thickened obviously
Good variety of fillers

Bote Cote
Aussie
Cheaper
No amine blush
Thicker (better for working on vertical surfaces unthickened)
One all purpose hard (but difficult to sand) filler. ... we now stand corrected here (see below ... thanks Midge)


Surely we can use filler from either supplier in either epoxy? Opinions, tests, trials anyone?

How am I going for my summary of characteristics so far?

Re your comment about the "local bloke" ... can someone help me out here ... is there one closer than Perth ... maybe Mandurah ... maybe even Bunbury:eek: ?

[bitingmidge]

With Bote Cote, you get one filler for everything. It is gritty to use and a prize bastard to make nice fillets with because it is stiff and sticky and ... just horrid. It sets rock hard and what there is is what you're stuck with - you aren't going to sand that fillet smooth. I don't like the fillers and if the esteemed Bruce Mc (who makes the stuff) is reading, he might wish to consider this.

I'll phone Bruce this afternoon and complain! :D :D :D

Actually Daddles, Bote Cote do make several filler brews, the lightest of them (the filling compound) gives about the smoothest creamiest goo you'll ever want to know.

As for fillets, I did these with the sticky gooey gluing compound because I ran out - where's the problem?:D
http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16186&d=1133662737

Cheers,

P

[Daddles]

Actually Daddles, Bote Cote do make several filler brews, the lightest of them (the filling compound) gives about the smoothest creamiest goo you'll ever want to know.

Glad to see they've got it. It wasn't available when I last bought some

Richard

[Lignum]

Peter,

though I understand you can get a thickener for West - but perhaps that might detract from its strength

The Thicknessing powder adds to the strength. A few months back i didnt clean out the excess epoxy enough and the epoxy coated wooden tray i use was leant up againsed a wall and left for the weekend and on the monday morning wouldnt budge. So 4 or 5 heavey whacks with a mallet was needed and it ripped a big chunk of concrete out of the floor:eek:

West system + Micro filler = Seriously strong:D

[Daddles]

West system + Micro filler = Seriously strong:D

Oohhhh yeah. I remember the first time I picked up a stem laminated from oregon using poxy (yes, it was West but ...). It felt like I was weilding a leaf spring from a car ... without the feeling of fragility you get with a car's leaf spring (in comparison):eek:

Dis is goot stuff. Verry goot mit fer boaten maken

Richard

[Rocker]

Boatmik and Lignum,

Thanks for your info in thickeners. I am happy to continue using Techniglue for furniture making. It already has the consistency I want without the need to add thickener. I also like the convenience of being able to mix small quantities like 1/4 teaspoon for gluing individual joints. This is not feasible with epoxies that are dispensed from bottles with inbuilt pumps. I was just curious to know if Boat Cote has some killer advantage like being radically cheaper than Techniglue. But I am not enthusiastic about using any glue that requires a thickener, especially if it is potentially hazardous.

Rocker

[Wild Dingo]

Re your comment about the "local bloke" ... can someone help me out here ... is there one closer than Perth ... maybe Mandurah ... maybe even Bunbury:eek: ?

Simple answer? No... Ive looked and searched but mate the closest is Welshpool and Bayswater... cant remember off hand who they are but will later... or someone will pop up and tell you

The only thing you will get will be the stupid little "packs" from bunnings... DONT TOUCH THEIR EPOXY it is crap! doesnt hold water and is a mongrel to get the mix right... 1:1 my ass!! 1 epoxy : 100 hardener!... ahem my daughter bought some for me when she worked there!!... and some boat chandlerys will flog it to you at exhorbitant prices... actually the chandlery in Mandurah at the new boat harbor? he wasnt too bad on his prices... but down here? nope or at least I havent found anyone yet :(

Getting it from whoever Boatcraft pacific uses is probably a good option... if memory serves they have suppliers here... used to be Sorensons but I think theyre closed now well I cant find them in the white or yellow pages anymore

ANYWAY!!! what canoe design you doin?

[bitingmidge]

Getting it from whoever Boatcraft pacific uses is probably a good option... if memory serves they have suppliers here... used to be Sorensons but I think theyre closed now well I cant find them in the white or yellow pages anymore

If there's no-one locally, why not order it direct?

P

[Lignum]

Simple answer? No... Ive looked and searched but mate the closest is Welshpool and Bayswater... cant remember off hand who they are but will later... or someone will pop up and tell you



Shane is that in answer regarding getting west system closer to Mandurah? If so the marine suppliers in south terrace in Freo just near the Seaview pub sell west system. :)

[Ramps]

Thanks again
I did find 1- 4L packs of West at Cross Electrics the other day and they had one type of filler ... no cloth or anything but could get us out of a hole if poxy was all that was needed.

Canoe design = similar to one I saw on the web but with my own touches ... designed on BearBoat Pro software ... neat stuff ... free & fun

The next will be a kayak straight out of Nick Schades book ... still tossing up to go with the more managable (for an amatuer paddler) Great Auk or the Beautiful looking Guillemot.

In the mean time the family canoe has it's priority looks a bit like the Green Valley Kipawa

[Wild Dingo]

Midge... that would probably be the way to go... depending on price differences that is as it maybe cheeper to drive up to Bayswater Freo or Welshpool and pick it up as compared to the price ex Adelaide or wherever

Lig mate I wasnt aware of that... no worries I generally get to the pub and well... sigh :rolleyes: good pub that one ;) but I will make a journey soon and cheek it out ahem meaning I will go there first THEN the pub! :o

Ramps... have you seen the Wee Lassie of Mac McCarthy? he of feather canoes? I like the thoughts of a strip plank rather than ply canoe... ive made a ply one and its great fun but well... canoeythingy was a hoot took all of a weekend to put her together paint and launch and many a great time was had too by gar! :cool: I still have the moulds and strongbacks for both Wee Lassies (12ft and 14ft) somewhere out in the shed... mmm may have to revise that upon reflection I think I will need to recut the moulds as its been a sufferably long time since I cut that chipboard... must need replacing... ahem I have the strongbacks for both the 2 Wee lassies out in the shed THAT I KNOW!

Damnanblast this bein crook!!! :mad:

[bitingmidge]

Midge... that would probably be the way to go... depending on price differences that is as it maybe cheeper to drive up to Bayswater Freo or Welshpool and pick it up as compared to the price ex Adelaide or wherever

I dont' know what the distances are for you, but I'm 200k from the factory, and delivery costs me $8.00 which is less than it costs to drive to Woolies to get the groceries!

cheers,


P

[Boatmik]

I needed a light, non-sagging, sandable filler for which I mixed in Wests "Microsphere" powder. (Boatcote and others claim this is a dangerous material due to risk of inhalation).

Not quite true. Bote Cote have a strong line against colloidal silica - the microspheres are relatively benign.

It all comes down to the shape of the particles.

If you do breath in microspheres you can cough them up like all the dust we breath in during the day.

But Silica (and others like asbestos) are long thin sharp splintery fibres - so once inhaled they tend to stick in place - so stay there as long term irritants. Silicosis, mesothelioma respectively.

All dust should be avoided. One of the best investments a woody can make is some sort of either portable dust extraction or a permanent installation in the workplace.

Power tools should have adaptors to allow the dust extraction equipment to be connected whereever possible - which is just about everywhere these days.

Makes a huge difference to the smooth running of a workshop.

MIK

[Boatmik]

With Bote Cote, you get one filler for everything. It is gritty to use and a prize bastard to make nice fillets with because it is stiff and sticky and ... just horridIt sets rock hard and what there is is what you're stuck with - you aren't going to sand that fillet smooth. I don't like the fillers and if the esteemed Bruce Mc (who makes the stuff) is reading, he might wish to consider this.

There are two different fillers made by Bote Cote - one for gluing/filleting - one for filling (its easier to sand and not as strong).

I just about always mask around the area I am filleting so I don't have to worry about staining the ply. I have found I don't need to sand fillets using the Bote Cote filler much at all. Just a surface roughen to allow subsequent coats to adhere.


fillets are generally a half and half mix of the two <snip> and you've got a lot more sandability, particularly as you add more of the micro balloons.
You do lose strength. Sanding difficulty is just about exactly in line with strength. So if you add more of the easy sanding baloons you may risk the integrity of the glue. I am not sure if WEST recommend this for filleting.

The botecote filleting/gluing mix is set up to provide the right mix of properties without mixing different powders - though on occasion it might make sense to do so.


If you are coating a surface with poxy, and use West, you will either have to wash it down with a scourer and ammonia first to move the blush, or clog up a lot of sandpaper. I've done both and will probably just go with the sander next time, not worry about the wash down, however, this is supposed to be a distinct advantage of Bote Cote though to be honest, I don't remember being very impressed with it when I had to sand it in the past. Memory does play tricks, but I honestly don't remember finding the Bote Cote any better ... perhaps because sanding a coated surface is such a horrid job anyway. I will see when it comes to testing.
From experience in a production situation my feeling is the choice of sandpaper grit makes a huge difference. Also Dust extraction on the tools stops paper from clogging. Basically if you build a mast or a centreboard for a Puddle Duck epoxy it then spend more than 15 minutes with a random orbit sander then you need to either do more work on your coating technique, sanding technique, dust extraction or grit selection. My feeling is that brand of epoxy is irrelevant here (I have sanded major projects that have used both epoxies)


However, you can add a bit of sawdust to the poxy to get the colour right, something I've done often with good effect though to be honest, it's not often I bother. For the PDs, I believe Midge was able to get a filler that colour matched well, but you'll need to ask him about that.
The Bote Cote fillers match quite well with medium brown timbers - Cedar, Gaboon, Maple and similar.


Which raises the question, what happens when you use the West fillers in Bote Cote:confused:
No problems - fillers are inert (at least to anything in WEST or BoteCote) - Mix and Match.

MIK

[Boatmik]

The Thicknessing powder adds to the strength. A few months back i didnt clean out the excess epoxy enough and the epoxy coated wooden tray i use was leant up againsed a wall and left for the weekend and on the monday morning wouldnt budge. So 4 or 5 heavey whacks with a mallet was needed and it ripped a big chunk of concrete out of the floor:eek:

West system + Micro filler = Seriously strong:D
There is some data around published by WEST about the relative radii of the lightweight filler fillets vs the higher density harder to sand ones.

So while the lightweight stuff might pull concrete out of the floor it is considerably weaker than the stuff designed for filleting. So if you use the low density powder for fillets they need to be considerably bigger.

Sticking well to a concrete floor is not necessarily a good criterion for strength in other structures! :-)

To be specific you have only shown how poorly concrete deals with tensile and shock loadings - not how strong or weak the 'pox is!

MIK

[Ramps]

Thanks again for opinions, comments and enlightening facts.

Another summary (my version) ... not much different from the last one..

So far

West
Cures harder
Is naturally a thinner product (better for working into the cloth) but can be thickened obviously
Good variety of fillers

Bote Cote
Aussie
Cheaper (a little over 2/3 price ... from what I've found)
No amine blush
Thicker (better for working on vertical surfaces unthickened)
Good variety of hardeners

Both sound very good and it's a matter on mainly what you're familar with more so than the the purpose that you're using it for.

By all means pls add any thougths about good, bad, ugly experiences that you've had with the various products ... or even not product related as I prefer to learn from your mistakes after all I can make enough of my own without repeating your errors.

Dingo, thanks for your offer of the Wee Lassie II forms but from what I've read the wee lassie wouldn't handle the volume (read that as weight) that I need to put into it. My 150kg + SWMBO + two light wt girls = 200kg ... OK so I don't weigh that much. So I need something that can take 200kg for a bit. ... will the Wel Lassie take that sort of wt?

[STEPHEN MILLER]

West when you use 107 UV stabilized hardener there is no amine blush
107 costs a bit more but we have been using it on a bar top cockpit floor etc and it seems pretty good same propertieis as normal West and when you see my son use it it looks simple.
Where my son works his boss is building a 1930s style river boat when doing the hull the guy doing it applied special plastic sheeting over the west system after it was applied run a rubber bladed spatula over it to smooth it out and get rid of bubbles etc, then the plastic is peeled off when it is dry smoother finish less sanding works a treat:cool:

[Mattkk]

Having just finished a strip built canoe I have a couple of observations.

I used techniglue to glue all the strips together and then for all additional woodwork. I had some left over to build some paddles as well. It is tolerant of a rough mixing ratios. it's supposed to be 2:1 but does not seem to require absolute accuracy. It sands well. It is not affected by water - I know that the strips will be encased in fibreglass but if there is ever an ingress of water I want the strips to stay together. It has a great working time. I could make up a batch and get three or four strips on with no issue. I had very little wasteage.

I used west system for the fibreglassing. 105 resin and 207 Special Coating Hardener. The 207 Special Coating Hardener is a must as it cures to a clear finish so you can see the wood within. Mixing was a trivial activity as I used the west system pumps that provided an exact 3:1 ratio. I think that I used about 6 liters of resin/hardener all up. I don't recall it being expensive considering the time and effort put into getting all the strips glued and sanded.

[Ramps]

Matt
thanks for your info
Just a coupla questions
why don't you put a pic up on "woodworking pics" I'd be keen to see it... I can guarrantee the other guys would be as well.
However if you don't want to I'd be keen to know what design and as a matter of interest I'd be keen to know how many coats of epoxy you applied and what was the weight of the glass you used as I am trying to work out how much epoxy to buy for a first boat.
Did you get any amine blush with the 207.

Stephen thanks for the info on the west hardner and the lake of blush with 107 ... do I get the impression that the 107 doesn't leave a totally transparent finish though .. from what Matt said??
Thanks

[Boatmik]

I'd be keen to know how many coats of epoxy you applied and what was the weight of the glass you used as I am trying to work out how much epoxy to buy for a first boat.

When I worked selling materials we would generally sell about 12litres of resin for a 16ft strip canoe. There would generally be a bit left at the end.

Many people decided to buy 6 litres to get started, then buy another when they needed it. There is not a huge cost (/litre) differential between buying 6 and buying 12.

GENERAL
ALWAYS COAT TIMBER WET-ON-WET - saves heaps of labour and heaps of epoxy. consider coating items BEFORE they go in the boat.
See FAQ at http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/Faq/faqindex.html (http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Estorerm/Faq/faqindex.html)

Coating Timber
Whichever epoxy you use three coats is best over general woodwork.

A single coat is not enough - soaks in too much and leaves some areas dry,

Two coats and some areas may still be soaking in too much and it is possible to have "holidays".

Three coats and is unlikely to have holidays and has enough thickness for moderate sanding to prepare for the following paint or varnish. SOMETIMES wth bote cote you can JUST get away with two because it is that little bit thicker - but you have to have your sanding act well sorted.

Four coats is a waste of money - usually.
__________________________

Glassing
With coating glass you have to keep coating until over about 80% or more of the surface the weave is not visible.

This allows enough margin for sanding without cutting back into the glass fibre too much. You will have to probably follow up with a locally applied coat where you go through to the glass or a single thin coat (with roller dragging to slick off the surface) over the whole surface with a very light sand after. see FAQ

Glass weights for canoes.
10oz (330gsm) - too heavy for canoes.

6oz (200gsm) - just about universal. Wets out nicely - can stilll see the timber and protects the cedar from most possibilities of denting (eg being put down on a stone)

4oz - for a lighter weight - only worthwhile IMHO if there have been some pains taken with the timber trim, decks, seats and bulkheads to keep weight out as well.

less than 2oz (60gsm) - I used this for my balsa strip planked canoe. I doubled it up on the underside of the boat where it may have touched the ground and doubled it where the paddler and seat would contact the inside of the hull. Was easily capable of dealing with all structural loads from paddling and handling on shore. Did dent easily - remember that the core was balsa - there would be less problem with cedar or kiri - but I always put the boat on the ground upside down so it was never a problem.

5.5kg

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/Balsacanoe/Balsacanoe.html (http://members.ozemail.com.au/%7Estorerm/Balsacanoe/Balsacanoe.html)
___________________________

I suspect that "Clarity" is largely a marketing ploy.

At 6oz you can see the weave of the cloth from about a foot away from the surface. Further - you won't.

Despite the 1.75oz that I used being one third the thickness (and the resin being less than 1/3 the thickness too of course) there was little or no perceptible difference in clarity - I was interested to see the difference it would make at the time - very little. Equates to having resin that's three times clearer.
______________________________

Remember that I have had links to Bote Cote over 20 years in reading the following. I don't make any money from it now - I only sell plans and attempt to push people toward the proven quality epoxy systems equally - Bote Cote, WEST, System three and others in the same price band - you get what you pay for. This statement is based on comparitive testing done by University Engineering Departments over a decade ago. I am assuming that the price/"mechanical properties" equation remains definitive.

The Bote Cote at that time ('91) was using an almost colourless hardener that did not yellow over time. That hardener became the standard hardener for some time until the last major revision - some years ago ('93/95?) - where the amine blush problem was resolved as well.

It is my understanding that the standard BC hardener is similar to the 207 West in terms of not yellowing over time, being basically clear and not having amine blush. But it's the standerd hardener at a standard price - not on special order or at a special price.

(Perhaps the non yellowing is a moot point. You have to varnish the boat anyhow and that should protect the 'pox from UV which causes the yellowing. If the varnish is ever allowed to deteriorate it might be good insurance to have a non yellowing epoxy underneath - but if you don't let that happen ... Also large (and longterm) projects which might be partially exposed to sun it might be good to have a non yellowing epoxy.)

As I said earlier choice really comes down to WHAT YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH. Other epoxies will always seem unpredictable compared to what you have used most.

The easiest thing is to STICK with the premium brands - their mechanical properties are miles above the cheaper epoxies - so your boat will be stronger, more durable and less maintenance.

Best Regards to All
Michael

[Mattkk]

Ramps,

I just put a pic up in the in the woodworking pics area. http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=33862

In retrospect I think that when I said I used 6 litres I really meant that I used about 13 liters. woops!

The plans came from Glen-l. They were pretty good. There were some things that had to be worked out but it was not rocket science.

I used 6oz cloth for the interior and exterior with one extra layer of 4 oz cloth on the outside up to the waterline.

All up it took two to three applications of epoxy to fillout the fibreglass. My tip would be that if you don't know what your doing (I didn't) is to make sure you have everything ready at hand and work fast. Don't try for perfection, just get it on and then start worrying. Don't fiddle unless you know what your doing. The 207 hardener did not seem to leave any amine blush. In fact I don't actually know what it is as I have yet too observe it.

A few stats. My canoe is 17 feet long and weights 25 Kgs. In retrospect I think that I built it heavy and I think that if I was to do another I could carve off at least 4 to 5 Kgs. Less epoxy, thinner strips, use of 4oz cloth vs 6 oz cloth etc

[Ramps]

Cool
thanks for the info Mik and thanks for sharing your experience and pics with us all Matt.
Always good to get a few opinions ... to me "newbie" experiences are just as important as the very experienced as the blokes who have done it time and time again tend to forget about the little (obvious to the experienced) stupid mistakes that we can make when starting out.
I'm prob sounding like a broken record but thanks again guys

[Boatmik]

My tip would be that if you don't know what your doing (I didn't) is to make sure you have everything ready at hand and work fast.
Good advice! You get more working time with the epoxy that way.

If the epoxy sits in a container after it has been mixed (thoroughly!) the heat accumulates and you get precious little time before the lot starts thickening then smoking.

If you get it out on the surface QUICKLY then the bigger surface area allows the heat to get away and you get more working time.

So mix, get it out on the surface, then you'll have time to tidy it up after.

This method makes a lot more difference to working time than using a slower or faster hardener. The only exception is if you have to work in direct sunlight on a warm day - then this strategy falls apart because the surface gets heated by the sun - so you just have to move to doing smaller areas with each mix.

MIK

[Mike Field]

I note a lot of material and good opinions here, but one reason (not the only one) that I myself far prefer Bote-Cote over WEST (or others) is because its mix-ratio is more forgiving.

I make no claims to being a meticulous woodworker as I know many here are, and I don't want to be bothered with measuring out components gram by gram. With Bote-Cote, two squirts from one pump and one squirt from the other and I'm done.

[Daddles]

I make no claims to being a meticulous woodworker as I know many here are, and I don't want to be bothered with measuring out components gram by gram. With Bote-Cote, two squirts from one pump and one squirt from the other and I'm done.

That is an interesting comment Mike, because I see the Bote Cote pumps and their ratio as a flaw in the system (and remember, I've fought with both).

Two pumps? To give two pumps right after each other, you have to make sure the pump is fully charged before giving the second. Not a problem in a warm workshop but in colder weather, you need to be aware of it.

Two pumps to one? It's easy to get lost if making a big mix. With West, it's one pump of each. Hard to get wrong. And going from one pump to another gives the first pump time to recharge (see above point).

The smallest amount of Bote Cote you can make using their pumps is three pumps. With West, it's effectively one pump because the harderner doesn't add much. I often do jobs that need less than three pumps and so found Bote Cote wasteful.

So sorry, I can't agree with your preferance of Bote Cote over West based solely on the pumps.

However, it's not a big deal - it's an argument that comes under the category of 'something to argue about while the billy boils' :D

Weighing the stuff is the EASIEST way of doing it. Seriously. Possibly helped by the fact that I already had a set of electronic scales (they are pricey darned things). I place my pot on the scales. Hit the button. Wait for zero. Pump in some resin. Read the weight. Hit the button again and do a quick mental calc while the scales zero themselves, then pump in the hardener. Gawd, that sounds harder than it is.

Using the scales, you quickly realise how dodgy the pumps are - they don't reliably give the right ratio ... which also makes you realise just how tolerant these epoxies really are (because using the pumps works). Both the Bote Cote and the West pumps are scary things if you're watching the numbers come up on a set of scales (the West ones I'm using at the moment regularly need an extra pump of harderner ... regardless of how much resin went in. Dunno why and it's not logical but there it is).

The scales also allow for a stroke of the pump not giving the right amount - eg, copping an air bubble or the pump just not being full before use. The scales allow you to make very small mixes if needed, and I've often found myself making less than a pump load for small patches or when bedding in screws.

Because I'm not building every day, the pumps are not being used every day. Sometimes it'll be weeks before I need to reach for the goop again, and this, I have found, can lead to problems with the pumps too. Sure, you can say that if won't be using the pumps for awhile, you can wash them out and store them - I actually saw that advice on an american site. Hah. I can never predict when I'll be out there again, nor how much poxy I'm going to use. The scales guard against errors here and like I said earlier, if a pump does act up, you know exactly where you are and how much to add to correct the problem.

The maths isn't all that hard either - dividing by 5 or 2 is easy, especially as it is easy to control the amount going into the pot down to the gram level if you like, thus you don't squirt in 18 grams, you squirt in 20 :D

The scales are well worth buying as they make the whole job a lot more controllable without being hard on the brain. It's true. Would I say it if it wasn't :rolleyes:

Richard

[Daddles]

Mik'll be able to correct me on this or if things have changed.

Some years ago, I asked Bruce Mc (of Bote Cote) about the pumps and why he used the ones he did. His answer was that the pumps he used were accurate and he'd had too much trouble with pumps that gave smaller quantities - hence you need to give two pumps from the resin, then one from the hardener.

I might also add that I learned about using scales from a seasonned Bote Cote user (ex Duck Flatter too) he liked them for basically the reasons I stated above - ease, more flexibility in the measurements and you don't have to worry about pumps.

However, the pumps make it very easy to dispense the poxy into your pot, even on the scales - pouring it from the bottle is a recipe for waste, mess and bad language.

Richard

[Ramps]

Mike, Richard
thanks for your further opinions
I've already got the drift that you (or I) can't rely on (any?:( ) pumps and some other sort of measure is the way to go. What does appeal to me about Bote Cote is similar to or maybe what Mike was inferring is that a 1:2 ratio is much more forgiving than a 1:5 ratio.
The only question that comes to mind is that these compounds are designed to mix as a volumetric measure; do both the hardner and resin have the same density:confused: ? if not, it could be part of the reason why you're getting an ongoing mismatch from the pumps Richard? Just a thought. Can anyone tell me the density/specific gravity of the different compounds ... if someone has a new largish container of the various products they could weigh them for us.
Ta guys

[Boatmik]

Howdy Ramps,

Richard is not wrong about the various scenariios but to not use pumps ...

That would be a wrong assumption. Pumps can work fine - I use them and have used them my whole boatbuilding career.

By far the bulk of builders use them and I mean around 90%.

But it is important for users to find a way to satisfy themselves - and Richard has done that.

The only time I don't use them is when I am dealing with larger quantities and it is easier/faster to just pour into a container using a marked stick to get ther ratios.

Pumps are fast - accurate enough and durable enough - but ...

it sure helps if you make up a light box to keep the resin and hardener in. If they are warm the pumps work REALLY well and are more accurate, morre faster and more durable.

There is a break even point depending on the type of work but it is easy enough to flick on the switch for the lightbox when the day is likely to involve gluing.

The pumps will still work OK with care (and patience in winter) if the box is not on and you need a mix in an emergency

Hope this helps

Michael

[Mike Field]

Ye, all good points. I don't know if the pumps are particularly accurate, but at 2:1 they don't really need to be. (At 5:1, they would.) Yes, the stuff certainly slows down when it's cold, and a light box for warmth sounds a good idea. And yes, you can get air bubbles if you're too impatient -- but you only have to slow down a little and let the pump fill properly to avoid that.

The point about wastage is good. If you were using epoxy a lot, then you'd probably waste quite a bit by using pumps. (Although again, a 2:1 mix is so forgiving you can almost do it by eye -- so one stroke and a half-stroke might work okay for half-quantities, for instance.) I have to say though that I use epoxy very little, so a bit of wastage when I do use it doesn't bother me.

Also I'd rather buy a local product. And also I prefer the smell over that of other epoxies I've used.

If you have a look this thread (http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=52312) you can see some more information about Bote-Cote products.

Mike

[Daddles]

I found using the poxy at TAFE very interesting compared to working spasmodically at home. We were only in there once a week, but the apprentices were in the shop using the same pumps during the week. With two boats on the go and twenty blokes working on them, the poxy station got a real hiding (wait in line sometimes). They'd buy the poxy in huge pots and keep refilling the 4l kit bottles. We only used pumps and used the same pumps all the time, but ... they were in constant use. I reckon that makes a difference. Also though, with that much work going on, if you had some left over, you just gave it someone else with something to glue, and there always seemed to be some filletting to be done somewhere.

Working alone on your own boat and learning as you go is a VERY inefficient way of doing things. Waste is sometimes as common as stuff ups.

Another annoying thing with the West pumps is that the pick up tube doesn't go to the bottom - at least with Bote Cote (well, the last time I bought BC pumps), you get to cut the pipe yourself and can cut it to the right length. The heat box would certainly help.

The weight issue isn't an issue - it works just as well.

With my current, funny hardener pump, it occured to me yesterday that I'm using a resin pump from a 4l kit and a hardener pump from a smaller kit. I thought they'd use the same pump in both kits but with shorter pick up tubes, but it could be the two kits use different pumps and that is why I've got this slight problem. Dunno. I could also be a I've got a dud pump. Why am I using pumps from two different kits? Because the pump from the hardener on the previous kit was as dodgy as a paper funnel. I've had a bad run with pumps in recent years, all West pumps so there might be a message there. It's not something I get upset about because as I've said, I like using my scales - it would upset someone who doesn't.

In the end, it boils down to what you are doing and how you are doing it. That can dramatically alter the balances that determine what's best for us. This is why I like seeing how other people do things and their solutions to their problems.

One further point, despite all I've said in previous posts, if Binks, my local chandler, stocked Bote Cote and not West, I'd be using Bote Cote and, as Mik and Mike have pointed out or hinted at, I'd be happy with that product too. If they had both, I'd probably be using BC (because it's Aussie). Although I could probably order the stuff in, I really don't need the extra messing around. I need it? I buy it. (hey, when you're fighting in the family court to keep contact with your daughter, you don't need shopping hassles in your 'relaxation therapy'. This attitude might change if life ever settles down). This really is a 'beers around the barbie' discussion.

Richard

[Boatmik]

Like I said at the beginning of this thread - the first page - second post - little would be revealed but the biases of the participants.

We all have few problems with what we use because we have adapted to its use and adapted it to our methods.

So WEST/BoteCote - who cares?

You can stay completely within one brand's products and build great boats.
I use Bote Cote
Richard uses WEST

When we meet up and talk boats and building the brand just doesn't come up at all - (it hasn't, has it Richard?) this is a measure of how unimportant it is.

My theory about boatbuilding is that when someone is actually uncertain about making the first step they pace backwards and forwards and talk endlessly about the pros and cons of different materials and compare suppliers and compare building methods.

When they are sick of the angst - they just go ahead and do it.

There is not even anything particularly wrong with going through the Angst - it can be part of the process. But when it gets too long winded or too emphatic then there's a problem that needs to be faced more directly (funnily enough by realising there is an underlying problem)

So the BoteCote/WEST dichotomy is really meaningless. (see I even wrote it round the opposite way this time!).

BESTCote?

However the different strategies for handling the material that everyone has been putting in have been great - and it will be great to continue for that benefit.

Michael

[Daddles]

So the BoteCote/WEST dichotomy is really meaningless.

I dare you to say that to Bruce Mc next time you're having a beer with him. Better still, we could post this thread in AABB and he could have a spit there :D (I'm remembering the 'to poxy coat or not' business the issue before last).

Seriously, Bruce McConkey, though I don't know the man, says things as he believes them ... on paper anyway. Anyone thought of inviting him to join the fun here? And Rob Ayliffe and a few of the others (yes Mike F, I know you're here).

Richard
someone please tell me if I'm tossing lit matches into the gunpowder stores again :rolleyes:

[bitingmidge]

Crumbs Daddles, Bruce is retired now so he'd probably have time to finish one thread before we all expire.

If he turns up, I will instantly concede defeat in the quest for the longest post!

We've had a few designers turn up and go, David P and Mike Waller have logged on once or twice. Bruce is still in the Bris wooden boat scene, so I'll suggest it to him when next our paths cross, or onthebeachalone can do it for us!

The problem with for all those blokes is that if they turn up, we'll just jump on them from a great height :o tell them they are wrong, then they'll go away again.

Just like we did with Boatmik.:p

Cheers,

P

[Daddles]

The problem with for all those blokes is that if they turn up, we'll just jump on them from a great height :o tell them they are wrong, then they'll go away again.

From what I know of Bruce, that might just be an attraction. :D

I might sound as though I know what I'm talking about sometimes (my daughter believes me), but I'm still staring up a near vertical learning curve. Even Mik might have noticed by now that I do change my views when better evidence comes along. The more experience on here, the better.

BTW, I know we already have a lot of experience on this forum, so please don't anyone feel like I'm putting them down. I'm not.

Richard

[bitingmidge]

From what I know of Bruce, that might just be an attraction. :D


Well there IS that! :D :D :D

In an ideal world they'd all be here, but I don't blame them for not knowing aobut us. So many forums, such a small marketplace!

cheers,

P

[Ramps]

To the contrary BoatMik

This was never meant to a "which is best" thread... check the title.

It was just that I'd heard a lot of good about both and they both had their characteristics.

From what you have all posted I have made up my mike as a beginner which to run with and feel it is a very fruitful thread ... thanks guys for your input.

.... "So WEST/BoteCote - who cares?" .... I do, that's why I asked:D

Thanks again

[Boatmik]

Agreed Ramps - just voicing my perspective.

And it is a great thread.

MIK

[Mike Field]

... when you're fighting in the family court to keep contact with your daughter...
You too, huh? My next case starts in two weeks. You have my utmost sympathy, old son.

[Daddles]

You too, huh? My next case starts in two weeks. You have my utmost sympathy, old son.

Thanks mate. Our next step is a full trial, due to start at the end of the year. Fun eh? Least it gives us something to growl about while sanding. Best of luck.

Richard

[carmen]

:) I started useing West but graduated to Bote Cote for no other reason than I live 5 minutes from the factory, just a small point West being 5:1 as against Bote Cote 2:1, my understanding is there is less chance of skin reaction using the lower ratio product.

[catbuilder]

This is not a comparsion, because I've only used WEST, have been using it today, come to think of it. The reason I have used WEST is that 1. The plans recommend using it, and 2. Its easily available for me, I live an hour from all major towns/cities and get to one in particular at least once a fortnight, I can buy the resin, powders, fibreglass cloth, and fittings. I pay $150.00 for a 4.8 litre pack of resin/hardener, the powders they only have in stock, the 1 litre bags, which suits my current project, $10 a bag, no matter which one. But for a larger project they can order in whatever I need.

Regards

Matt