Need advice about GMC router and table.

[strangerep]

Hi, I'm new to this forum.

Yesterday, I bought a GMC table (CLM1000RT router/saw table) and the GMC
1550W Router (R1250SK superkit) which together cost about $350. I was
going to assemble the table this morning, but it's rainy and cold today so I thought I'd do some web surfing instead. Then I found this forum
and the severely negative comments in previous threads about GMC router
tables (non-flat table, non-straight edges, etc).

So now I'm wondering: do those comments only apply to the GMC powered
router table (PRTABLE), or do they also apply to their CLM1000RT
router/saw table? And what about the 1550W router? Is it reasonable
value for money? ($160 for the kit which includes router, various
bits, template guide, and some other accessories)?

More background on my specific situation: I have only ONE major routing
job to do which involves putting a large-radius (35mm) round-over on the
end of about 200 ballusters (42x42). I've talked with some experienced
people who say the correct technique is to use a straight bit with a
template guide and make a custom jig to hold each balluster.

If I was likely to have further serious routing jobs in the future, then
I'd instantly invest in a Triton 1440W router, plus their router stand, router table, and their accessory box of template guides (which adds up
to about $750). But I only have the one job, so I settled for GMC.
Now, given the extremely negative comments about GMC, I'm wondering
whether I should even bother assembling the GMC table, and whether
I should just return both the router and table on the 30-day satisfaction
guarantee and cough up the extra few hundred dollars to buy the Triton
gear instead.

What do people think?
Will the GMC stuff do this job adequately or not?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[Stickmangumby]

Hi strangerep,

I just bought a similar thing to you, but the lower end version. It was the GMC R1200 router packaged with their RT200 router table. I'd read plenty of threads on this forum about them, and it seems like the router is a good buy but the table is pretty awful. However for $98 it was $1 less than the router by itself, and came with a router table, so I figured it was hard to go too wrong. I'm not sure whether the negative comments about the GMC RT200 router table extend to the individually sold powered table or not though. It seems like people think the router you got is good for the price, but again I haven't used it.

[Stuart]

Talk about a bloody hard question first up! Both of you actually :)

strangerep first:

I have never used the GMC table, but I do know the one you are referring to. I think, for the price, that it isn't too bad, and for this one job, you probably won't be using the fence or tracks anyway.

For this job, you don't necessarily need a template guide - you can do the same thing with a bearing bit, and make your template the exact size of the radius you want, rather than adjusting for the template to cutting distance.

http://www.canadianhomeworkshop.com/stuff/photos/feb04c.jpg
You can get these bits with the bearing below or above the cutters, depending on which side of the stock you want the template to be.

Alternatively, you can go for a radius bit (with a bearing) with the radius you want.
http://botools.info/img/502f423030303243394331592e30312d413337345153365631324a5230572e5f53434d5a5a5a5a5a5a5a5f.jpg
Carb-i-tec sell these (among others).

So the table, if flat, should be ok.
Now to the router.

I understand this is a one-off job, and so long as it holds the bit in place, you will be fine. You are not looking for high accuracy, so set the depth, lock the plunge mechanism and away you go.

If you were thinking of this as a bit of an investment, then perhaps consider the Triton router instead. For other (future) jobs, when you are changing router bits, and for more accurate work, I think you will be very thankful that you went with the better router in the first place. Even if you assign the table to the bin downtrack (eBay), you will want to keep the Triton router, whereas, you will probably want to upgrade the GMC one.

There are a number of reasons I hold this opinion. On the GMC, I'm not confident about the shaft lock for bit changing, whereas the Triton has positive interlocks to prevent the router being turned on while shaft is locked. The Triton has superior depth setting, and an excellent microadjuster for finetuning that depth. The GMC has something like that on the plunge stop, but not for actually setting the bit height, particularly for table use. (And you can do above table height adjustment on the Triton with the accessory pack that includes those template guides). As to the bits themselves, a good quality straight bit will set you back around $30. So when the kit includes something like 50 bits, that's great for someone with an occasional job, but don't expect too much from them.

So hopefully - that helps a bit. (sic)

Stickman - we need more info in your thread to help with your depth problem!

Need any more info, or clarification - just ask!

[strangerep]

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for your reply. I didn't realize my question
was "bloody hard". :-)

You wrote:

> For this job, you don't necessarily need a template guide -
> you can do the same thing with a bearing bit, and make your
> template the exact size of the radius you want, rather than
> adjusting for the template to cutting distance.
>
> You can get these bits with the bearing below or above the
> cutters, depending on which side of the stock you want the
> template to be.

Oops. I forgot to include a couple of other facts in my original question:
I already own a plain long straight bit, i.e: without a bearing. I
didn't want to buy another expensive bit unless definitely necessary.
Also... while at the Sydney woodworking show a few weeks ago, I asked
one of the router bit suppliers what such a "straight bit with bearing
near the shank" would cost. He could not find one with a sufficient
cutting length - most of them were about 5mm too short or worse. He
searched diligently through some catalogs, but came up empty. I suppose
I should try other manufacturers, or else use one with a bearing at the
end - though that's a bit less pleasant as the template must then be
placed on top of the piece rather than beneath.

But I presume the only tricky thing about using a template guide in
my situation is that I must allow for the thickness of the guide when
making my template? Or is there more to it?


> Alternatively, you can go for a radius bit (with a bearing)
> with the radius you want.
> Carb-i-tec sell these (among others).

That was indeed my original "Plan A". I purchased a huge one (1 1/2 "
radius) from McJing (amazingly cheap) but then found that it's too wide
to fit through the base of any router I knew of (and I asked TotalTools
about it as well, but they couldn't help). (My local Mitre-10 guy's eyes
opened extremely wide when I showed it to him and asked if he had a router
that would accept it. - He didn't.) So unless the collet extends far
enough through the base so that the radius bit can be inserted from the
end without grinding the underside of the router base during operation,
this seems like a no-go. - Unless I settle for a much smaller radius.
Or unless I'm missing something fundamental.

I've also been told that using a radius bit is less preferable anyway
because I'd be cutting across the grain rather than along it. Is that
a significant objection?

BTW, I've now spent the entire day browsing the forums on this site.
They're great. I notice your contributions figure prominently and are
always informative and interesting. Thanks again.

P.S: I understand and accept your points about the superiority of
the Triton router. If I could think of even just one other job in my
long list of home improvements that needed a serious router then I
would invest, as you say. But the only other router-related jobs
are easy things that my little handheld Ryobi trimmer can do
quite satisfactorily.

Cheers.

[chrisb691]

That was indeed my original "Plan A". I purchased a huge one (1 1/2 "
radius) from McJing (amazingly cheap) but then found that it's too wide
to fit through the base of any router I knew of (and I asked TotalTools
about it as well, but they couldn't help). (My local Mitre-10 guy's eyes
opened extremely wide when I showed it to him and asked if he had a router
that would accept it. - He didn't.) So unless the collet extends far
enough through the base so that the radius bit can be inserted from the
end without grinding the underside of the router base during operation,
this seems like a no-go. - Unless I settle for a much smaller radius.
Or unless I'm missing something fundamental.



Wouldn't a router collet extension resolve this problem.

[Stuart]

Even easier - the Triton router extends the collet through the base to change bits, so by default, it can handle pretty much any bit size thrown at it. One of my router bits has a massive 70mm diameter (and yeah, I run that puppy bloody slowly!!!), and the Triton handles it without a problem. I'm so used to using Triton and their method for changing, I forgot that other routers do the opposite, fully retracting the bit to exchange, rather than fully plunging as the Triton does.

"Bloody hard" because without personally experiencing the table/router it is hard to generalise, but still wanted to present a reasoned arguement, without insulting any particular company.

Template guide vs bearing bit - yeah the only difference really is adjusting the template to match the template guide

The flush trimming bit (where the bearing is between the cutter and the shank) that i have from Carbitool has 38mm of cutter, so I guess that falls just short of your needs. So you may be back to using a straight 2" long cutter with template guide, or the rounding over bit. If you go with the Triton router, you can always try out that big bugger you got, and see how the finish is. Interesting point about it making the cut cross grain vs with the grain for the straight bit - there is some merit in that, and a couple of trial cuts would be good to confirm it.

In either case, you will not want to remove all the material in one pass. If you can remove some of the waste with a tablesaw or bandsaw, then take a few smaller passes with the router, you will get a much better finish, and won't overload the router, or overheat the router bit.

[Jack E]

Strangerep,

I have attached a pic of two router bits I have.
They are made by "Infinity" and are available from Northwood Tools (http://www.northwoodtools.com.au/default.asp?c=301110).
Colin, the owner of Northwood is good to deal with and is a great supporter of this forum.

They both have a cutting length of 50mm

The top bit part number is 12-671-0503
The bottom bit part number is 06-630-0406

If you do end up needing to buy a new bit this info may help.

Cheers, Jack

[Stuart]

Nice work Jack :)

[inferno6688]

i have no idea about the router table but i have that GMC router mounted in router table.
IMO the router is not too for value for money. Don't expect it to make huge cuts in one hit. As the others have said, the refinement and built quality is obviously not like the others. The plunge depths stop is a little rough, and i definitly wouldn't trust the scale on it! no doubt it should fulfil the needs of your current project, and if it dies just take it back within 2 years for a replacement!

As for the router table. Have you considered building you own? Becuase it is only a one off project u could build a very simple table to suit ur needs. Otherwise since u already have the GMC table, u might as well set it up and see if it suits ur application, and if not take it back within 30 days!

[strangerep]

Wow, this forum is like Christmas. I go to bed and wake up the next
morning to find lots of interesting stuff!

1) Thanks chrisb691 for suggesting a "router collet extension". Looks like
I *was* missing something fundamental - I didn't know such an accessory
existed. Is it the type of thing one can buy in a local hardware store,
or do I need to go to a tools specialist? And do I need one which
is specific to the particular router, or are they suitable for any 1/2"
collet router?

2) Thanks again Stuart. My large-radius round-over bit is 90mm diameter
and now I'm wondering whether it's just far too dangerous for a novice
to use. And I take your point about removing some of the material first -
I was going to use my compound mitre saw for that purpose. Someone else
(a professional joinery man) tried an experiment similar to my project
on their 3-phase spindle moulder with blackbutt 42x42 and it kicked back
severely, so your point is well taken.

3) Thanks Jack E. I'm taking a look at Northwood's website now.

4) Thanks inferno6688. I have indeed thought about making my own
router table, but the price of GMC's was low enough compared to
the cost of materials and my time. I might still have to do it
however - if I decide to return the GMC table within 30 days... :-)
But I think I'll do as you suggest: assemble and try the GMC
stuff.

5) Oh, and thanks also Stickmangumby for your reply yesterday.
It's nice to know someone else is in the middle of trying out
similar products. It'll be interesting to see if I hit the
same problem you described in the other thread.

OK... it's a nicer day today so... time to assemble that table
and try it out.

Thanks again everyone.

[Stuart]

You must have sent your weather here. Its cold and crap out :(

Let us know how you get on. Oh, and about the extension thing - it is a specialty item. Carbatec can probably supply it (and via mail order if there isn't one close to you).

[chrisb691]

1) Thanks chrisb691 for suggesting a "router collet extension". Looks like
I *was* missing something fundamental - I didn't know such an accessory
existed. Is it the type of thing one can buy in a local hardware store,
or do I need to go to a tools specialist? And do I need one which
is specific to the particular router, or are they suitable for any 1/2"
collet router?



They will fit any 1/2" collet. Carbatec definitely sell them,
http://www.carbatec.com.au/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=220_9960_10000_10002

Timbercon also have them http://www.timbecon.com.au/featuredproducts/0.aspx and you'll find more stockists if you google.

[strangerep]

Stuart Lees wrote:

> Let us know how you get on. [...]

OK, here goes...

Short Story: I returned GMC router & table and bought Triton instead.

Longer Story:

The GMC items were: CLM1000RT Router/Saw Table, and R1250SK router
superkit which contains a 1550W router plus various bits and accessories.

1) Assembling the table: the instructions were incorrect in a couple of
places. They mentioned front and rear panels which are non-existant.
On this model of GMC router table there's only a switch assembly at
the front. Fortunately, if one simply ignores those paragraphs in the
instructions, the table still assembles ok, if rather tediously.

2) The way in which the fence needs to be completely removed in order
to lift out the router plate is a pest. I like to put tools away (in
some sort of case with silica gel dessicant), but it's quite tedious to
install and de-install the router within the table.

3) Finding the correct holes in the router plate took me a while,
but finally worked if I used the holes meant for the GMC R1450 router.
The fine print in the manual that tells which holes are meant for which
router is excessively microscopic.

4) I had concerns about whether the whole setup would be stable enough
if the table is not bolted to the floor. You'd probably need to load
some bricks onto the bottom shelf to lower the centre of gravity.

5) Making the router plunge sufficiently for the collet to reach the
surface of the table was tricky, but I eventually figured out how to do
it. But the design of the plunge-lock lever gives me a nagging concern.

6) Removing the rubber base plate of the router to gain a few more
millimeters caused problems because the screws are made of such a crappy
metal that I instantly stripped the head of the first one I tried to
unscrew. Either they're tightened too hard at the factory, or made of
metal that's way too soft.

7) I couldn't find anything in the router manual about how to install
the template guide, although it talks about how to use it. I guessed
it involved removing two screws in the router base, fitting the guide
therein, and re-inserting the screws. But those screws were also made of
the same inadequate metal. I stripped the head of one, even though I was
being heaps more careful this time. I never did succeed in unscrewing it,
so that clearly counts as a fault.

8) Even if I were able to install the template guide, its neck is so
short that it would not protrude sufficiently through the router table
plate. This makes it unusable in table-mode. Therefore, this router and
table combination cannot do the job I bought it for. So...

9) I took them back to Bunnings, returning the router for "fault" reasons,
and the table for "satisfaction" reasons. The first Bunnings guy I talked
to was a bit reluctant at first to take them back - I guess that's a shadow
of the "weekend hire" abuse of GMC's 30-day satisfaction guarantee that's
been occurring. But after I pointed out that the screws in the router
were actually faulty, and after talking with the more senior guys in the
tool section, the return process was ok. Afterall, I was intending to
buy the more expensive Triton stuff instead so obviously I wasn't in the
"weekend hire abuse" category.

10) Thus, I attempted to buy the Triton 1400W router, router table,
router stand, and the accessories box. Bunnings (Belrose) only had one
router stand in stock and the box had been opened, so we checked the
contents in the store. No fasteners! They rang around to other (smaller)
Bunnings stores in the area, but apparently the smaller Bunnings stores
are no longer carrying Triton(!). So I bought everything except the router
stand. I'll either purchase the stand direct from Triton, or maybe from my
local Mitre-10 after I check prices. Or maybe I'll check what's actually
needed to support the router table and make a stand myself.

11) I am quite disappointed with GMC over this experience. In the past,
I've bought plenty of GMC tools and have always been happy with them (in
value-for-money terms). But GMC clearly does not understand table-mounted
routing very well (which might partly explain why they felt the need to
acquire Triton).

12) I guess I needed to go through all this to find out that GMC router
and table would not do the job I wanted them for. I comfort myself in the
knowledge that at least I now have a solid, immediate, evidence-based
reason for coughing up the extra money to buy Triton. I'll unpack the
Triton stuff over the next few days.

13) Advice to other novices attempting some serious routing for the first
time: table-mounted routing can be deceptively tricky. Steer clear of
GMC in this area.

[end]

[Stuart]

Real shame you had so much trouble with the GMC, but you will be very happy with the 1400W Triton.

Seeing as you have the Triton router table, the stand is definitely a good purchase - the legs have a storage if you want to put the table away / carry it, and it has the on/off switch on the table stand which makes it just work like a bought one.

You certainly will not have the same trouble with table routing with this setup. I guess you bought, or will get the accessory kit for the router - has templates, dust extraction for when you are handholding it, and the arm for through-table height adjustment.

[Template Tom]

Hi, I'm new to this forum.





More background on my specific situation: I have only ONE major routing
job to do which involves putting a large-radius (35mm) round-over on the
end of about 200 ballusters (42x42). I've talked with some experienced
people who say the correct technique is to use a straight bit with a
template guide and make a custom jig to hold each balluster.



What do people think?
Will the GMC stuff do this job adequately or not?

Thanks in advance for any advice.
Strangerep
To clear the idea as to what you are going to do. From the information you have submitted I have prepared a drawing as I see it as to what you want to do.
Please correct me if I am wrong
Tom

[strangerep]

Hi Tom,

> To clear the idea as to what you are going to do. From the
> information you have submitted I have prepared a drawing as I
> see it as to what you want to do.

Wow, thanks for taking the time to do that!

> Please correct me if I am wrong.

You've shown 2 roundovers (radius 35mm) at the end. That's not
correct. I'm doing a single roundover on one side only. Ideally, this
would be R42 but I know there are some practicality issues with this,
so it will probably be more like R38 to prevent shatter. So the round will be a full quarter-circle, ending tangentially on both the long and
short sides. But on the short side, a small straight section will remain
(about 5mm).

(Sorry I can't produce a drawing. My old computer died recently and
I'm currently breaking in a new Linux one. Haven't found my way around
all the new utilities yet. Not sure what people normally use on Linux
to make drawings in a file format suitable for this forum.)

[Wood Butcher]

Strangerep,
Something like this??
http://woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25886
I think a pattern could do it but that is a lot of timber to remove.
I'm sure that one of the more router proficient members could give some ideas?

[Tex B]

I know this is the routing forum, but I wouldn't use a router for that job. The wood is too thick for most bits, as you have found.

First, clearly mark the end you want on each side.

Then use a saw (band saw, jig saw, coping saw, whatever you have or can borrow) to remove the bulk of the waste and get close to the profile.

Then use a finer cutting tool to complete. I would mount a belt sander in the vice and rock the piece until it was down to the lines, but that's probably a poor way to do it. Could also use random orbit sander, spokeshave, rasp, sandpaper attached to a concave backing. Maybe drill a 35mm hole in a block, cut the block in quarters, and use that as a sanding block?

There's gotta be a better way than routing this.

Tex

[Template Tom]

"I've talked with some experiencedpeople who say the correct technique is to use a straight bit with a template guide and make a custom jig to hold each balluster".

They are quite correct That is the only way to rout the ends as you require. Email Me and I will forward details of a Jig and template that I will draw out for you.
Tom

[Stuart]

I know this is the routing forum, but I wouldn't use a router for that job. The wood is too thick for most bits, as you have found.

First, clearly mark the end you want on each side.

Then use a saw (band saw, jig saw, coping saw, whatever you have or can borrow) to remove the bulk of the waste and get close to the profile.

Then use a finer cutting tool to complete. I would mount a belt sander in the vice and rock the piece until it was down to the lines, but that's probably a poor way to do it. Could also use random orbit sander, spokeshave, rasp, sandpaper attached to a concave backing. Maybe drill a 35mm hole in a block, cut the block in quarters, and use that as a sanding block?

There's gotta be a better way than routing this.

Tex
And you want to do that 200 times????

[strangerep]

Wood Butcher wrote:

> Something like this??
http://woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25886
Er, something like what? I don't see an image.
(I'm using Mozilla Firefox. What format was your image?)

[Wood Butcher]

Strangerep, try this
http://woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25886 (http://woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25877&stc=1&d=1151888092)
I'm using Firefox (wouldn't use anything else) and the image is a jpeg. I can even see it in your reply above:confused:

[Stuart]

I have the same problem - no image there Rowan

[jmk89]

And when I try your latest link I get a message saying that it is an invalid attachment.

Could you try again?

cheers

Jeremy

[Wood Butcher]

Try This.
Edit: They should all work now!

[strangerep]

Strangerep, try this
http://woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25886 (http://woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25877&stc=1&d=1151888092)
I'm using Firefox (wouldn't use anything else) and the image is a jpeg. I can even see it in your reply above:confused:
Weird. I can see the image now in both places.

Anyway, moving on....

Yes, that's roughly what I had in mind, though probably with a slightly
larger radius.

As mentioned previously, I plan to do a single 45deg cut with a dropsaw
to remove most of the timber, and then use the router to achieve the curve.

[BobL]

Weird. I can see the image now in both places.

Anyway, moving on....

Yes, that's roughly what I had in mind, though probably with a slightly
larger radius.

As mentioned previously, I plan to do a single 45deg cut with a dropsaw
to remove most of the timber, and then use the router to achieve the curve.

What about lining and clamping them together in lots of 20 or so to a benchtop and include a waste piece at either end so if you get router wobble or tearout at the end it don't matter? Then rout the ends of each batch in a number of small passes using a round over bit. I've done s similar thing before - worked a treat.

[Tex B]

And you want to do that 200 times????

Oops. Guess I should have reread the first bit.

Sometime I think I only open my mouth to change feet. Forum regulars already know that of course.

Tex

[Stuart]

I knew you hadn't :) Trouble is, it is rather difficult to show typing while the tongue is firmly in the cheek!

[strangerep]

What about lining and clamping them together in lots of 20 or so to a benchtop and include a waste piece at either end so if you get router wobble or tearout at the end it don't matter? Then rout the ends of each batch in a number of small passes using a round over bit.
That was indeed my "Plan-A".


I've done s similar thing before - worked a treat.
What radius roundover were you using?

[strangerep]

[...] it is rather difficult to show typing while the tongue is firmly in the cheek!

In ascii, one writes ":-^", but I don't see such a smiley icon on this site.
Maybe the smiley set needs an augment.

[Stuart]

Perhaps I should have used http://www.ubeaut.biz/awink.gif or http://www.ubeaut.biz/mhihi.gif

[Template Tom]

That was indeed my "Plan-A".


What radius roundover were you using?

With the radius you want would require a very very Large cutter and no doubt will not fit most routers. I would not like to be in the same room as you when you set it going
Tom

[Stuart]

With the radius you want would require a very very Large cutter and no doubt will not fit most routers. I would not like to be in the same room as you when you set it going
Tom

As he said in post 4, he already has one. I have one about the same size, and have used it perfectly safely using the lowest speed on my Triton.

[Template Tom]

Stuart
Quotes from posting 4

"Oops. I forgot to include a couple of other facts in my original question:
I already own a plain long straight bit, i.e: without a bearing. I
didn't want to buy another expensive bit unless definitely necessary."


"That was indeed my original "Plan A". I purchased a huge one (1 1/2 "
radius) from McJing (amazingly cheap) but then found that it's too wide
to fit through the base of any router I knew of (and I asked TotalTools
about it as well, but they couldn't help). (My local Mitre-10 guy's eyes
opened extremely wide when I showed it to him and asked if he had a router
that would accept it. - He didn't.) So unless the collet extends far
enough through the base so that the radius bit can be inserted from the
end without grinding the underside of the router base during operation,
this seems like a no-go. - Unless I settle for a much smaller radius.
Or unless I'm missing something fundamental."

"If I could think of even just one other job in my long list of home improvements that needed a serious router then I would invest, as you say. But the only other router-related jobs are easy things that my little handheld Ryobi trimmer can do quite satisfactorily".

Yes he does have a cutter 1/12" radius I know but from what he has posted he is not an experienced router user like yourself and I do think we have to keep this in mind when we are giving directions and I consider it better to consider an alternative method of completing the Job
Tom

[benoi]

I recently purchased one of those bundle wz router table. AFter use it for my 1st project I leave the bit in. A week later when I try to get the bit off, after a lot of difficulty I manage to took it out.But I've a new problem the splindle lock button is jammed.
Anyone know of a way to release it ...I have try to take out the screw near the splindle button but it could'nt come off. I know I can return to GMC for a replacement but it take too long.... I need to finish my project !!! Any advise will be valuable.

[FXST01]

Have you given the collet a rap with the spanner?