36' fishing trawler in need of magic

[justplanecrazy]

Hi there,
I've got a 1960 trawler that needs to be recaulked at minimum. I've been reading up on a few calking and epoxy type coverings that will completely seal the hull and glue it together while staying supple. They tend to be used on sailboats only but why wouldn't a large cedar hull work as well? Any experience comments recommondation on product would be appreciated.

[Paddo Woodie]

Hi

About 18 months ago I was lucky enough to assist in resplining a sailing boat in Tassi.

The process involved using a power saw with a V shaped blade to take out all the old chalking and to leave a nice wedge shaped groove between each board.

We then cut Celery Top Pine into V shaped strips and they were epoxied into the grooves. They were then faired off and the boat painted in the normal way.

The plank fixingings were renewed where needed prior to this process.

I understand that this method of chalking was developed by a famous Tassi boatbuilder to stffen old hulls and to avoid totaly encasing the hull in fibreglass or whatever. I have attached a pic of Kiwi Lass so that you can see the end result.

Unfortunately I don't have any pics of the process taking place but perhaps Bloggs1968 has some pics as he was also on the same job.

[Old Codger]

I own a 38 foot Ex Cray boat that used to work out of King Island and got half converted to a pleasure boat before I bought it and am currently finishing the job, see pictures.

Only above the waterline using western red cedar (WRC) splines in Kauri planks. Most people only do it above the water line. My boat was not caulked when built just plank to plank and so after she stopped being a work boat the planks above the water line would dry out and seperate due to lack of moisture when sitting in calm water on the morring during winter. I used WRC because it is weeker than the Kauri and would break first hopefully if the need be.

I wouldnt encapsulate a planked boat as the timber would be too damp to get the stuff to stick, it is simply impossible. A wooden boat is always moving with the seasons and with the use it gets, eg on the mooring, in the marina, out at sea.

If you realy have to do something below the water line then re-caulk it but just get it out of the water and do the job quickly and get it back in, other wise you may see all your caulking fall out once the hull shrinks. away.

I won't Hijack your thread with pictures, but for those interested then see new thread in building/repairing section.
Old Codger

[Salted Nuts]

Hi Justplanecrazy, I have a 42' extrawler that was fully refastened and had the old caulking raked out and replaced then linseed oil putty mixed with antifoul back in over the top. My step-father has a 50' ex workboat as well and his is currently out of the water. He is raking out the old caulking and priming with epoxy then filling with sikaflex (this is all under the waterline). He would be most happy I'm sure to discuss this option with you as he did a lot of research beforehand. You can contact him at [email protected] Regards, Pete

[viking]

I own a 38 foot Ex Cray boat that used to work out of King Island and got half converted to a pleasure boat before I bought it and am currently finishing the job, see pictures.

Only above the waterline using western red cedar (WRC) splines in Kauri planks. Most people only do it above the water line. My boat was not caulked when built just plank to plank and so after she stopped being a work boat the planks above the water line would dry out and seperate due to lack of moisture when sitting in calm water on the morring during winter. I used WRC because it is weeker than the Kauri and would break first hopefully if the need be.

I wouldnt encapsulate a planked boat as the timber would be too damp to get the stuff to stick, it is simply impossible. A wooden boat is always moving with the seasons and with the use it gets, eg on the mooring, in the marina, out at sea.

If you realy have to do something below the water line then re-caulk it but just get it out of the water and do the job quickly and get it back in, other wise you may see all your caulking fall out once the hull shrinks. away.

I won't Hijack your thread with pictures, but for those interested then see new thread in building/repairing section.
Old Codgerim yith you old mate sikaflex just dont work and only lasts about 3 years if your lucky. i have raked out more sika under the wl than most people. stay traditional and do it right their is still no better way .just short cuts .caulking splining oakum ext.has stood the test of time other ways a end up in tears and in my hands the shipwrights

[bitingmidge]

im yith you old mate sikaflex just dont work and only lasts about 3 years if your lucky.
Big call viking!!

The only sikaflex that doesn't work in my experience is the stuff that (no offence) shipwrights stick in without reading the instructions!

Typically, they've left bits of caulk material and pitch behind, haven't ensured the joint is completely dry, and most importantly, haven't properly primed the surfaces.

"Primed?" I hear you say.

I'm astonished at the number of people who hold themselves out to be experts, then don't read the manufacturer's instructions!

I only speak from personal knowledge of two boats (both carvel trawlers) done properly, but both have 15 years on them now, and no failure. Of course it IS expensive and a bugger of a job to do properly, and we all know how people hate doing that!

cheers,

P

[justplanecrazy]

I was planning on using Sikaflex 291 for the caulking and Interlux Antifoul as a cover point all for under the waterline. Are these the best products for this? What is required for prepping besides stripping the Oakum out, pressure washing and sanding? Thanks for all the info.

[bitingmidge]

Note my experience is more than 15 years old! New products are on the market (water soluble for instance like 291!)

I suggest you download the technical specs http://www.sikaindustry.com/tds-ipd-sikaflex291lot-us.pdf

Note specially:

Cleaners and/or primers may be required to achieve optimal adhesion. Please refer to the Surface Preparation Guidelines for specific application information.

From my reading of the specs, you are probably going to need Sika 291 LOT, so best get some technical advice before buying a truckload!

cheers,

P

[justplanecrazy]

What type of tool works best to remove the old Oakum caulking? Should I pressure wash it afterwards?

[Boatmik]

Pressure blasting can make wood pretty furry - keep the head back from the groove.

Also with the caulking removed make sure there is nothing precious inside the boat that may not like getting wet should some of the high pressure blast get inside - upholstery, wiring and electricals, wife of your bosom etc.

Double what Peter says about using the right primer with sikaflex if you are going to use it at all.

Going traditional as per Viking is also a valid solution.

If doing a traditional job make sure you put something toxic in the final linseed oil putty - they used to use Red Lead (Viking - do you have advice here? Too too long since I have done that sort of work) - otherwise the little wormies loves linseed mmmmmmm

MIK

[viking]

[quote=bitingmidge]Big call viking!!
:mad: well mate no shipwright i know uses that stuff under the waterline for that job. primer you say i read instructions and talk to sika reps.
do r and d first not to the detroment of somebodys boat. sika .doesnt recomend it either !!!!
cause its wet i say wet timber and no heat gun can dry the seam enough to guantee a satifactory job 16% moisture content and also its never intended to replace caulking in carvel construction let alone the seam putty . new boat dry timber different story.
when the caulking in question falls i hope you have a big bucket you will need one sika makes the caulking rot ,then you get plank moovment ,then comes nail tiredness and then a sprung plank ahhhhh glub glub mayday mayday?????:mad:
mate blokes like you should get you facts straight first .
show me how to get say a 6 by 1.5 inch plank thats been in the water for 20 years dry[in a day] to sikas spes and ill throw in the money to patent it???
caulking is the tried and true method for ease of repair and its a hands on way to get to know the boat and where her weak points are[loose fastenings ,rot ,degredation, corosion, worm ext none of wich you can see under that black #### sikaflex] shes alive you know .
dont use the she be right shuve it full of #### and forget it !!! you will be sorry
:cool: mate most instructions say free from grease dirt and moisture under a boat on a seam on a slip ha not likley #### then theirs the weather and slip costs to consider:mad:
well im not going to get into this any futher to busy repairing other peoples misguided misfortunes its my bread and butter so thanks keep it up. ha ha bloody ha !!!!! joke:eek:

[viking]

to the drip under pressure= ex spurt

mate im astonished it takes a week for sika to dry how much would that cost it dont work out cheaper than the traditional way i can asure you

[viking]

Pressure blasting can make wood pretty furry - keep the head back from the groove.

Also with the caulking removed make sure there is nothing precious inside the boat that may not like getting wet should some of the high pressure blast get inside - upholstery, wiring and electricals, wife of your bosom etc.

Double what Peter says about using the right primer with sikaflex if you are going to use it at all.

Going traditional as per Viking is also a valid solution.

If doing a traditional job make sure you put something toxic in the final linseed oil putty - they used to use Red Lead (Viking - do you have advice here? Too too long since I have done that sort of work) - otherwise the little wormies loves linseed mmmmmmm
:cool: yeh mate use a little anti foul 100ml or less per kg should do it:rolleyes:
MIK

[bitingmidge]

You seem to have a problem viking.

Let me set you straight, I am not a shipwright, I'm not a tradesman of any kind, I'm certainly not an expert despite your assertion above, but I've been around, and I've seen a lot of problems caused by people who reckon they are. Now keep your shirt on, I'm not talking about you, here, just read on.


"Big call viking!!"
:mad: well mate no shipwright i know uses that stuff under the waterline for that job. primer you say i read instructions and talk to sika reps.
do r and d first not to the detroment of somebodys boat. sika .doesnt recomend it either !!!!
Well like so many "tradesman" it appears that you don't read the instructions all that well. Please note that above I specifically referred to a product that is expressly manufactured for that purpose, and if you'd read the link, you would have seen that. Perhaps it's a product that's not available in the "Central Coast" but it certainly is in Canada where plaincrazy lives.

cause its wet i say wet timber and no heat gun can dry the seam enough to guantee a satifactory job 16% moisture content and also its never intended to replace caulking in carvel construction let alone the seam putty
Now that's strange, I don't actually recall saying anything about using it on wet timber? In fact if you read my post you'll see I said of the people that get into strife:"Typically, they've left bits of caulk material and pitch behind, haven't ensured the joint is completely dry, and most importantly, haven't properly primed the surfaces. At no time did I suggest that it was intended to replace caulking either, as far as I can tell.


. new boat dry timber different story. Ahh, so it just may work then?

when the caulking in question falls i hope you have a big bucket you will need one sika makes the caulking rot ,then you get plank moovment ,then comes nail tiredness and then a sprung plank ahhhhh glub glub mayday mayday?????:mad: Now there's a big call, "Sika makes the caulking rot"? How?

mate blokes like you should get you facts straight first .
show me how to get say a 6 by 1.5 inch plank thats been in the water for 20 years dry[in a day] to sikas spes and ill throw in the money to patent it???
Well I suppose you are talking to me, not Salted Nuts who has done it on a 50 footer (see above post) but I'll show you how to dry a plank of that size in a day, when you show me how to rake, clean and prepare a 50 footer in the same time!

We are talking about a major reconstruct here, not some wham-bam slap'em up mr roughie shipwright job! Of course the boats need to be properly dried, (and yes I know what that does to planking).

You did ask me how, so I'll let you know that many boatyards have a facility called "hard stand". That's the flat bit away from the slip, where you can set up a boat to dry out, to work on it in relative comfort. So stick it there, rake out the joints, do all you need to do internally and on the deck and by that time, six months or more have gone, and by golly you probably won't need a heat gun to take the surface moisture off the planks.

I apologise if I'm being overly sarcastic here viking, it's hard for me to tell if you really don't know about this concept or if you are just tugging our chains.


caulking is the tried and true method for ease of repair and its a hands on way to get to know the boat and where her weak points are[loose fastenings ,rot ,degredation, corosion, worm ext none of wich you can see under that black #### sikaflex] shes alive you know .
dont use the she be right shuve it full of #### and forget it !!! you will be sorry
Well you see, if the sika, (or sheathing for that matter is done correctly) the degradation will be minimised. Strangely enough, modern materials do have the ability to withstand far more adverse conditions than pine tar. In fact it's a LOT more difficult to do a quick patch up properly with modern goo for all the reasons explained, than it is to bung in a bit more caulk.

:cool: mate most instructions say free from grease dirt and moisture under a boat on a seam on a slip ha not likley #### then theirs the weather and slip costs to consider:mad:
You can consider whatever you need to consider. If you can't get the timber to a condition suitable for using sealant, THEN YOU HAVE MADE THE WRONG SEALANT CHOICE. It's as simple as that.

Most failures of sealants are caused by ignorance of the requirements for application, or by ignoring them. Like you, I've seen heaps of boats with sealant just bunged in, and it doesn't work. Unlike you, I blame the person who did the job rather thant he sealant in 99% of cases.

well im not going to get into this any futher to busy repairing other peoples misguided misfortunes its my bread and butter so thanks keep it up. ha ha bloody ha !!!!! joke:eek:
Perhaps that's also the point. If they were prepared to spend money to do the appropriate maintenance in one gulp, they'd have a lot less to spend over a decade. (Just an observation).

At the end of the day, we are dealing with a construction method which served us well historically, but which is particularly inefficient in terms of material use and engineering. Boats built in that style need to be preserved, and maintenance minimised or they won't be round forever.

I have only ever argued with one point that you've made, you've said Sika won't work. I have a few examples which prove that wrong, but then they weren't done on one day on a slipway by blokes that didn't understand the material they were using either.

For the record, I can't ever see a time when I own a planked boat, they are just too expensive to maintain properly, and too hard to find blokes who have the skills do the right (traditional) job anyway, which is why modern materials have relevance.

There are plenty of ways to do this job, all have their relative merits, none will work if they aren't done competantly.

Cheers,

P (bemused)
:rolleyes:

[viking]

[quote=bitingmidge]You seem to have a problem viking. you bet i do if you dont beleve me in my profesional advice stick it up your seam .sarkastic wanker. i have beeeen using sika flex for many uses for years now about 26 years profesionaly and stand by this. no where does it say that you can use this product in this way. for the record pine tar under the water line now you are getting redicoulus and i can even remember old the code number of the old sika 241. also any body worth his salt will know what im on about.why dont you just pull your head in and get out into your workshop and do something instead of giving people the wrong advice you wanker also ive been looking at all your web sites and sika instuctions and you seem to be anoying little mozzie buzes around giving us the #####
consider yourself burnt also ring up the shipwright and boatbuilder assoc in your state and they will tell you 2 wanker

[bitingmidge]

I must confess, that's what I thought!
P
:D :D :D

[Boatmik]

If we were in New Zealand it would have sounded like winker.

An excellent rundown on the importance of using the right material and consistent methods in the right place.

From both of you!

MIK

[Daddles]

Viking, don't go calling people a wanker - it makes you look like the wanker.

Second, how about putting up posts that people can read. Your last effort with your comments inserted inside the quote meant that any reader had to go digging for your input. It's not hard to make legible posts here, even for the computer illiterate.

Third, use english. We don't expect posters to produce perfect prose but your love of abbreviations and incomprehensible spelling makes the message in your posts almost invisible.

You'll find that people put the same amount of value on a post as the person who posted it. If you don't think your posts are worth putting any effort into, why should we value them any higher?

Viking, we give and take a lot here. We're willing to put up with characters, we're willing to put up with those who aren't as skilled as others either in the subject at hand or just producing posts. Hell, we even put up with experts :eek:

However, you have been habitually abusive, particularly in this thread, habitually abrasive and determined to call everyone else wrong with you absolutely right. It's probable that you have a lot to offer us here, however, you are hiding that behind your manner.

In other words, stop acting like the wanker you accused Midge of being and try being friendly. Surprisingly, it works.

Richard

[viking]

my humble appologies if i offended anyone.
but im having one of those days.
up to my neck with know it all's today.
its the sarcazum that gets me and the attacks.
they just seem to miss my point on and off the water. today
sorry also my spelling is no good .
again sorry.
viking
look my point is planks need to moove and do
caulking in the traditional way lets the caulk squash flat if needed .if it squezes out bang it back in ! sika falls out cause of the limitation it has in compresion.how do you fix that in a hurry.and the same goes for expansion to. enough said

[Daddles]

but im having one of those days.


One of THOSE days eh? Man, do we know what that feels like.

Viking, I'm someone who loves to discover his mistakes and misconceptions and have found over the years that those working in the industry are, surprisingly (sarcasm) the best to point these out ;) You're welcome here and have been from the start. Sorry if I got overly stroppy with you.

Richard

[bitingmidge]

viking, I'm happy to kiss and make up.

I was going to accept your apology, offer mine and get on with life, and will do so however I notice that in the meantime you've learnt to edit, so instead of "wanker" your previous post has got a bit more abusive, and I can't just let it rest:

you bet i do if you dont beleve me in my profesional advice stick it up your seam .sarkastic wanker. This has nothing to do with not believing advice, has it? I agree with your methods, but I know that sealants also work while you don't seem to have had that experience.

i have beeeen using sika flex for many uses for years now about 26 years profesionaly and stand by this. no where does it say that you can use this product in this way. Wouldn't you think if they didn't work they would have gone broke sometime in the last 26 years?

Seems you've missed the bit in the Sika 291LOT brochure that says:
PRODUCT BENEFITS : - use above and below waterline
LIMITATIONS: - allow one week full cure prior to total immersion situations.

for the record pine tar under the water line now you are getting redicoulusYes I am, and I'm sorry, but it's an old habit I got from my great uncle in the 50's. I refer to all seam material (even sealant) as "pitch" or "tar" because that's what he called it. A bit like the way I tell people it'll cost them a few quid, but they all know what I mean.

also any body worth his salt will know what im on about.why dont you just pull your head in and get out into your workshop and do something instead of giving people the wrong advice you wanker
Because so far, I haven't given any particularly wrong advice as far as I can tell, and neither have you? You may also wish to refer back to my post where I suggested "best get some technical advice before buying a truckload!".
I don't want anyone to think anything I've posted is technical advice, it's not. Not all synthetic sealants are going to fail. That's the only point I have wanted to make, if that has distressed you viking, I'm sorry.


consider yourself burnt Ouch!

I don't have any issues with your spelling by the way, that's not at all at issue here and shouldn't have been raised, and I don't have issues with most of what you say, if only you'd back off long enough to read that.

I really didn't want to imply that traditional methods won't work either, if that's what you've read then I'm sorry about that too.

I am curious when you say you've ripped out more sika than you care to think about, yet you've been using it for 26 years? I'm guessing you've been using it above the waterline, interestingly perhaps, I've seen as much (maybe more) of it fail in deck seams than anywhere else, and then I read the brochure: LIMITATIONS:- Do not use as a deck seam sealant. (same for 241)

I assume that is because it needs protection from UV, but would like to know your experience there, and what you use these days.

Cheers,

P

[viking]

apptly named biting midge .
well if you read the other peoples replys you would know that i was not realy refering [spelling ]to you.
as for the deck seams sika actually make a product for that purpose.[be shure to use breaker tape.] there you are again gowing of half cocked again.??? mate not all boats are wood and i do use sika for skin fittings ext.well enough of this crap im a shipwright of high regard and integrity i also dont realy care what you think.
im just telling you what i know from experience .
so if you feel that you have to pick on the little indescresions well be it.
i still beleve in fredom of speech and do not wish to talk about the pros and cons of sika flex any more and so on thanks

[justplanecrazy]

So I decided to do half traditional half Sika. I need some advice on what to use for the traditional method over top of the Oakum to pay the seams below the water line. Viking this is probably your area of expertise if you don't mind can you describe the application and type of material used, it'd be greatly appreciated. I do understand the risks involved in this process also. Thanks in advance.

[Wild Dingo]

What a bobby dazzler of a thread! :D

Funnily enough both of you are right (as are Mik and Daddles by the by)... individually and informationally your both right... so stopp wanking your own chains and start actin like people who give a shyte!

Sorry JPC Im not gettin into this one I will leave it to the shipwright ;) I just cant abide bein called a wakker more than once in one day and her bloody highness gets that one free every morning!! :eek: And given vikings penchant for that word Im gonna duck back outta here! :D

Good luck with it JPC... oh and show pics if you can mate it would help! :cool:

[darrenyorston]

Another example of a high jacked thread! It started well however by the end I have no idea what the hell is being discussed.

Does the sika work for the purpose discussed or not? Is it a particular sika product?

If we all lived in a non progressive world we could all build boats traditionally. Maybe I could have a fully sik buggy for my horse to take to work but since we don't, and not all of us want or have the ability to build/repair traditionally can we agree to dissagree? Maybe create a "I hate the other person" thread where people can be flamed without confusing the hell out of us amateurs!!

The traditional techniques work but can the work be done better or differently? If you a traditionalist great..if your a modernist great..can we try to give are ideas constructively please?

Sorry if my spelling or grammer is not up to scratch but I can't download the spell checker.

[justplanecrazy]

So anyone have any info on the recommended compounds used in present day traditional boat corking? What about in areas requiring a little special attention where the planks are still secure and solid but the gaps have gotten larger from cleaning and recaulking a few to many times. I've heard of a mixture of Fibergum and portland cement. It seems to be a logical mixture as I believe Fibergum is a roof patching sealant and portland cement cures with water. I tried mixing some up but it wouldn't harden so I'm starting to think Fibergum is another product. I've heard of a few other remodies but none that I've ever seen available to a simplton like me. Any info would be appreciated. I hope you didn't get scared off Viking, your experience is invaluable.

[stevebaby]

[quote=bitingmidge]You seem to have a problem viking. you bet i do if you dont beleve me in my profesional advice stick it up your seam .sarkastic wanker. i have beeeen using sika flex for many uses for years now about 26 years profesionaly and stand by this. no where does it say that you can use this product in this way. for the record pine tar under the water line now you are getting redicoulus and i can even remember old the code number of the old sika 241. also any body worth his salt will know what im on about.why dont you just pull your head in and get out into your workshop and do something instead of giving people the wrong advice you wanker also ive been looking at all your web sites and sika instuctions and you seem to be anoying little mozzie buzes around giving us the #####
consider yourself burnt also ring up the shipwright and boatbuilder assoc in your state and they will tell you 2 wankerViking...mate...how's the Shipwright's dovetail going?

[stevebaby]

Rule !: Read the Instructions.Sika Corporation | USA (http://www.sikaindustry.com/ipd-marine.htm)

[bitingmidge]

Err, Steve, would you mind terribly fixing the quote above?

viking it was who said that stuff with the rude words, not I!:(

And yes thanks for reinforcing the link to Sika! ;)

P

[stevebaby]

Err, Steve, would you mind terribly fixing the quote above?

viking it was who said that stuff with the rude words, not I!:(

And yes thanks for reinforcing the link to Sika! ;)

PDerrrr...sorry about that.Sorry for the delay in replying.I thought I already had,but the reply seems to have vanished into cyber-space.:)
I've just found a couple of other uses for Sika.I used pert of a tube and the remainder usually goes off after opening,so I used it to repair the soles of my hiking boots.There was still some in the tube and it worked perfectly to repair my (expensive) bike saddle...trimmed the frayed bits,masked it and put a couple of coats over the torn fabric and sanded it smooth with 80 and 120grit.Looks like a shop-bought one! Saved me a couple of hundred bucks to replace it,and the hiking boots would have cost about $150. There was just enough left to patch a hole in the guttering (temporarily).

[Boatmik]

I've just found a couple of other uses for Sika.

I used it to repair the soles of my hiking boots.

it worked perfectly to repair my (expensive) bike saddle

There was just enough left to patch a hole in the guttering (temporarily).

Howdy Steve,

You summed it up best yourself


There's a boat inside me trying to get out.
MIK

[PuFFaH]

May I point out that Carvel planked boats are not just caulked to seal the hull but also to tension the hull. Caulking plays a vital part in the strength of a wooden hull which modern adhesive/sealants can't replicate. I, like Viking have found Sikaflex to be useless bellow the water line and not much better above. Even on a new build with moisture controlled wood being used, the longevity of Sika can not be relied on (even after using the product to specifications).

For Carvel planked boats caulking with cotton or oakum is best closely followed by splines. To pay a large boat seam after caulking bellow the waterline, I would recommend a mixture of black tar varnish, cement, boiled linseed oil, japan driers. To give the proportions would mean I would have to kill you :) Red lead putty will be more than adequate if this is all you can get.

PuFF

[viking]

hi every body the cranky buggers back
old tryed and tested this works the traditional way and lasts. good to see some good advice coming from other members.i use anti foul and linseed oil putty mixed together for the seams after chaulking. stops the putty bugs and my mate adam from a brisbane waters marina uses a product that they use on the timber ships at the sydney maritime museum its called b52
ok happy caulking :roll: