Thicknesser meeting Festool Forum User Standards?

[warmtone]

Now I have everyone's attention......... the recent purchase of the Domino has made me realise that I need one badly....... I mean a good Thicknesser that enables the full joining potential of the Domino to be realised.

I was wandering what Festool users are actually using out there as I find the Thicknesser choices/pricing somewhat bewildering.

At one extreme there is the GMC cheap and cheerful - but fairly uninspiring then there's cluttered $1000 market with Makita and DeWalt "portable" units. Beyond that I see Carbatec have some interesting industrial strength looking machines for not much more.

I need something that enables me to accurately machine re-cycled timber I'm not machining 200 tones of hardwood wood and mainly interested in DIY furniture size pieces and box making at this stage. and yes with the odd garden gate replacement. I would prefer something reasonably quiet......

I like the look of the DeWalt 735 but note a number of non complimentary comments on this site re after sales service and the low quality of blades. But this aside, it does provide solid build quality and good dust extraction......... Tassie Kiwi pls check your mail!

So what are the options at say $1100? - I'd be also be interested in the receiving advice on the Carbatec and other "industrial" thicknessers:)

[Stuart]

Jet, and Triton are both worth looking at (the Triton is not out yet however). After playing with a quality jointer (my new jet longbed), I'd love to see what the corresponding thicknesser is like.

[lesmeyer]

If you want a thicknesser to match the domino superior quality and wish to pay around $1100 then I can suggest the Carbatec CTJ381. 15" 3hp. ( it may actually cost a bit more). I have had mine for almost 2 years now, and the quality of the thicknessing is second to none.
Regards
Les

[Stuart]

I have had the GMC for a few years now- would like to experience a top-end machine to know what is really possible.

[warmtone]

Guys, thanks for the feedback and advice on Carbatec alternatives....... having not personally ever used a Jointer or Thicknesser (like a few other newcomers to the Art) I am still trying to grasp the basics.....

After reading some of the various threads on Thicknessers and Jointers I think I have now started to appreciate the challenge of producing stock that is truly sized AND square...... Stewart your description was perfectly clear!

The bad news is it seems that ideally you need BOTH of these machines or a combination machine(!)

It looks like my foray into serious woodworking is becoming more complex than expected!

So what comes first the Thicknesser or the Jointer? And why can't the Jointer do the whole bloody lot? Admittedly the Jointer would not be as convenient as a Thicknesser which presumably guarantees absolute "thickness" repeatability. For thicknessing large quantities the benefits are clear!

But on face value, the Jointer would seem to be more versatile since it can provide both a flat surfaces and a square edges the Thicknesser I assume can't do this?

Have I missed something?

[Richardwoodhead]

Warmtone,

First you plane a flat surface (via planer or jointer). Then you can turn side on and achieve a squared edge if you need one. Then you thickness using the flat / planed surface as a base.

I recommend a combination "over & under" planer & thicknesser. This machine will be the starting point for your fine woodworking.

Richard

[Honorary Bloke]

I should think a jointer first, but Richard is right about starting with a combo machine. Hitachi make a well-designed one, but it may be more than $1100 AU. Sells here for about $1200 US.

Now if I can get the picture to load.:confused:

[Stuart]

Guys, thanks for the feedback and advice on Carbatec alternatives....... having not personally ever used a Jointer or Thicknesser (like a few other newcomers to the Art) I am still trying to grasp the basics.....

After reading some of the various threads on Thicknessers and Jointers I think I have now started to appreciate the challenge of producing stock that is truly sized AND square...... Stewart your description was perfectly clear!

The bad news is it seems that ideally you need BOTH of these machines or a combination machine(!)

It looks like my foray into serious woodworking is becoming more complex than expected!

So what comes first the Thicknesser or the Jointer? And why can't the Jointer do the whole bloody lot? Admittedly the Jointer would not be as convenient as a Thicknesser which presumably guarantees absolute "thickness" repeatability. For thicknessing large quantities the benefits are clear!

But on face value, the Jointer would seem to be more versatile since it can provide both a flat surfaces and a square edges the Thicknesser I assume can't do this?

Have I missed something?Yeah, I think you have. But guess what - we (the various members of this BB) are now doing little videos that you can watch. The first one is precisely on what you need to know - Jointers and thicknessers!

Head on over to this thread

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=35496

and hopefully more questions will be answered than you knew you had. You probably will have more questions - that is cool, but at least you will have had a chance to see a jointer and thicknesser doing their thing. Gumby's machine is a combo, so you can that type of unit in action.

[TassieKiwi]

I had a heap of 200x50 RS boards to dress recently. Some had metallic paint, all had 60+yrs of grime and dust from being the perlins in a workshop. I only have a 150mm short-bed jointer, so here's what I do:


Skim all gunge and paint of using the 'lectric planer
Get one side flat and true within 1mm or less with the planer and wind sticks/3m aluminium straightedge
Joint one edge with the planer/90°fence attachment
Poke this throught the thicknesser with the flat side down
Cut remaining undressed edge through the TS.
Dress edges smooth with #7 jointer
take out planer marks with LVLA jackDone.

This only takes about 15 mins a board, less if you're doing lots. I don't often use the jointer, but probably would if I had the Jet longbed.:D
Many joiners do not use boards over 150mm anyway, for stability reasons.

[mat]

Warmtone

I have the Dewalt "tractor" DW735. I personally don't think that all the bad press is warranted. I have had mine for over 12 months and am still on the original blades. I think that amazon reviews tend to get more of the dissatisfied than the satisfied.
The 735 blades are reversible - so two sets of blades for the price of one. You can shop around for good blade prices especially from the US. Easy blade change with alignment pins/screws unlike many other machines.

The machine itself is fantastic two speeds, inbuilt chip extraction, three blades etc very well made.

I bought it as I considered it the best portable machine - which I needed due to space constraints.

If you are planning on thicknessing a lot of recycled hardwood and you have the space I would go for a stationary machine. Go Jet if you can afford it.

[Lignum]

Warmtone, congrats on being one of the enlightend and privileged few on the Forum:D :D :D Now you can understand what all the fuss is about:D :D :D :D

I see you will be thicknessing recycled a fair bit. Having done that myself for a few years, one thing is you will get alot tougher timber than new stuff. I have the little Jet and its a great little machine, but it is still a bit of a toy, and it dose handle new timber ok (but has its limits) my oppinion it woldnt be that great with second hand stuff.
As i dont know your financial situation apart from looking at $1100, i would look at the $199 GMC if its still avail and the ballance get a cheap 8" jointer (dont get the 6" for recycled) That combo will be great to start with and get you started, and then with all the money Baby Domi makes you:D Save and swap the GMC for a JET/Carbatek/Hafco 15 or 16"

Need pics of your Domi and her work:D :D

[Ratbag]

Warmtone, I believe that you need to accurately assess your needs in a machin., and aim for one with the capacities and capabilities you really need. Otherwise you'll just be either wasting your money on a expensive lemon, or an inadequate toy. Inexpensive machines will do a lot of work. Cheap machines won't. Do get an under and over. You can only really perform any one function at one time. The efficiency in space and expense of modern "under and overs" or planer/thicknessers as they're more commonly known makes them superior in all but commercial environments. Aside from CCA treated pine I haven't needed to buy a single plank of dressed timber in over 30 years. I've also worn out the surfacing tables on two machines working them mercilessly doing whole house lots of framing, lining and flooring. But the best machine you can afford. If you use a lot of timber, it will pay for itself in a very short time if you buy your timber from local sawmillers, especially if you rack and dry it yourself. You buy an expensive power tool because you want the best. The same (only more so) applies to machinery. While there are very few of us who could justify. let alone afford the likes of a Knapp or Felder, we can still buy a reasonable quality alternative. Some of the better classes of machinery are still within reach, such as Startrites, Sedgwicks, SCM's and Minimaxes. For those on a tighter budget, there are the Roblands, or the fantastic, innovative Moretens machines from Sweden. Me, I'm really satisfied with my 20 year old Kity 12" by 9". But I wouldn't mind a new Robland 20" by 10" either! I really recommend that you bypass those flash little buzzers that the hardware stores sell. You just can't dress timber properly on a tiny little thicknesser with a two foot bed. It just can't be done. There's a lot of top quality single phase machinery out there if you take the time to look. There's just no substitute for the heavy castings of the older machines. A grand should get you into a really nice used Sheppach, Elektra, Elu or DeWalt under and over that will last you for many many years.

[warmtone]

Ratbag, thanks for the advice! You did a brilliant job of summarising all my various dilemmas!

I guess I do have a problem with buying "low end" landfill products that are simply too depressing to contemplate. I hate to reward companies who simply produce high volume thinly disguised junk!

Even though buying Festool is initially "painful" at least you are buying high quality engineering that cconsistently delivers outstanding results and always a pleasure to use.

I can honestly say I have never regretted buying a Festool product.

I'm always happy to consider a "yesterdays hero" because there is real engineering count in these older industrial machines and as Her Festool points out for older Festools: "was good is good and will always be good!"

These principles apply to the machines you have mentioned.

As a relative novice, I'm not sure how far I should go at this stage and I have decided to spend the next few weeks just learning from others before I shell out serious brass.

I am increasingly convinced you can spend a grand on a "run of the mill" lightweight" thicknesser to to actually go nowhere... or alternatively spend say $1500 on a good combination planer/thicknesser made of real steel that willl last a couple of lfetimes for a part-time woodie like myself!

I haven't seen too many really good secondhand combination units come up for sale of the caliber you mention except maybe a s/h Dewalt currently on eBay..... not sure how this particular machine rates. Can you recommend where to buy the "good stuff"?

[warmtone]

I should think a jointer first, but Richard is right about starting with a combo machine. Hitachi make a well-designed one, but it may be more than $1100 AU. Sells here for about $1200 US.

Now if I can get the picture to load.:confused:
Bob, Thanks for taking the time to post the picture...... I haven't found one of these Hitachi machines here in Melbourne yet but I'm inclined to agree that a serious combination planer/thicknesser is the way to go......:)

[warmtone]

If you want a thicknesser to match the domino superior quality and wish to pay around $1100 then I can suggest the Carbatec CTJ381. 15" 3hp. ( it may actually cost a bit more). I have had mine for almost 2 years now, and the quality of the thicknessing is second to none.
Regards
Les
Les, indeed the CTJ381 looks like a fine machine of serious build quality - current price is around $1400 from Carbatec...... It's the additional cost of buying an equivalent high quality planer that is slowing me down!

[nt900]

For me, I use the thicknesser a lot, and the planer very rarely. I often use the table saw as my jointer to get square stock.

I have a heavy cast iron stationary thicknesser 15" which is great for recycled timber, but would love the addition of a more refined bench top machine for the final finish.

Not that the stationary machine cannot produce a very nice finish when the blades are in good order, its a matter of one machine could take the rough stuff and the other could be kept with nice sharp blades for smaller stock and final pass. The stationary machine tends to get the occasional chip in the blade when I hit a small bit of nail or something. I use a metal detector, but still miss some pieces. And the recycled timber can start quite dirty which dulls the blades.

I expect to spend as much on the bench top machine as I spend on the stationary machine.

[Ratbag]

Warmtone, thank you for the kind comments. I hope I've convinced you to buy an "under and over" if nothing else. As others have mentioned, you can't adequately straighten warped/twisted/bowed/cupped timber any other way than planing the face and edge at right angles to each others to use as datum faces for further dressing.

As to the "where" of what to buy: E-bay isn't really an appropriate place to buy 2'nd hand machinery, as while there's an implied guarantee an item meets a description, you've no way of knowing until it's too late how well it performs its function.

Deceased estate auctions are great sources of semi-commercial top quality well looked after machinery. Your local Trading Post is another place to look. You can always insist on "try before you buy" in these circumstances. What about your local tool retailer? If you've developed a good relationship with him, then he may be able to get you a good quality trade-in with all the usual assurances demanded by State Legislation. Alternatively he could provide leads to previous customers making enquiries with him re updating their own machinery.

As for the DeWalt on E-bay: I had an earlier example many years ago that had a detachable leg stand that would fit into the rear hatch of an Alfa! It was a faithful, reliable friend for many years, and just great for taking on site and home again each day. But I still reckon you shouldn't be paying more than a grand. for a machine that size. If they're still being made (albeit in modified form) then that's more a testament to the quality of the older machines than a recommendation to buy one new.

You should probably pay $500 to $800 for one that would as like as not need a new drive belt, feed rollers and blades (about $200 - $250). The only gripes I had about mine was the need to manually set blade height, and thicknessing depth restricted to 160mm. if I remember it right. Hope this helps.

[warmtone]

Warmtone, congrats on being one of the enlightend and privileged few on the Forum:D :D :D Now you can understand what all the fuss is about:D :D :D :D

I see you will be thicknessing recycled a fair bit. Having done that myself for a few years, one thing is you will get alot tougher timber than new stuff. I have the little Jet and its a great little machine, but it is still a bit of a toy, and it dose handle new timber ok (but has its limits) my oppinion it woldnt be that great with second hand stuff.
As i dont know your financial situation apart from looking at $1100, i would look at the $199 GMC if its still avail and the ballance get a cheap 8" jointer (dont get the 6" for recycled) That combo will be great to start with and get you started, and then with all the money Baby Domi makes you:D Save and swap the GMC for a JET/Carbatek/Hafco 15 or 16"

Need pics of your Domi and her work:D :D
OK the pictures are coming shortly - but nothing too exciting! On the planer question may I ask where you sourced your 8" JET Planer from in Melbourne? Are Luna Kombi PlanerThicknessers worth considering?

[Lignum]

Warmtone:) You can get the Jet at the Woodwork Warehouse in Citrus st Braeside. I have the 8" Jet and it is a fantastic machine. Very solid, powerful and low vibration and the quality of cut is superb. I constantly put large heavy 4 x 4 hardwood over it and it hasnt failed yet. Highly recomended. On the Luna, i havnt used that particular combi but Luna is a very respected machine so you can be guaranteed its good value. My only critisism of the combi is (any combi) is by its nature you have to keep lifting the table to access the thicknesser and the more any moving part moves it eventualy has to be realigned. Alot dose depend on what levlel of accuracy your after and some people who have combis wont realy care. But it would drive me crazy to have to keep changing over. As i said i dont know your final budjet but the 8" Jet is excelent and the $199 GMC would make do for a few months and then make for a good stand by after you have gotten a 15 or 16" of better quality:D

[Flowboy]

Hi Warmtone,

I bought a Carbatec (everybody laugh) 13" thicknesser/planer in May this year. I've thicknessed and planed African Mahogany, Blackwood, Ironbark and Redgum. About 15 hours worth. I have thicknessed squares and dimensioned 100x50 boards on all sides. The unit will accept anything up to 150mm deep and will, in theory, cut 3mm at a pass. (Wouldn't like to try it on Ironbark). The finish is clean and smooth, though you need to be careful of stiping when using deeper cuts. It is a "bench top" unit and sits on a universal stand which is adequate, but not quite universal enough. It doesn't have a dust extractor, but I feel that a wide mouth collector on a 2HP extraction unit would do the trick. I'll let you know when I finally get mine set up. The unit cost about $850 and works for me, though a 15" florr mounted model would be my preference. Lately, Hare and Forbes have been having sales fairly frequently recently, so it may be worth seeing what they will do on price for the type of unit you choose.

Regards

Rob

[warmtone]

Warmtone:) You can get the Jet at the Woodwork Warehouse in Citrus st Braeside. I have the 8" Jet and it is a fantastic machine. Very solid, powerful and low vibration and the quality of cut is superb. I constantly put large heavy 4 x 4 hardwood over it and it hasnt failed yet. Highly recomended. On the Luna, i havnt used that particular combi but Luna is a very respected machine so you can be guaranteed its good value. My only critisism of the combi is (any combi) is by its nature you have to keep lifting the table to access the thicknesser and the more any moving part moves it eventualy has to be realigned. Alot dose depend on what levlel of accuracy your after and some people who have combis wont realy care. But it would drive me crazy to have to keep changing over. As i said i dont know your final budjet but the 8" Jet is excelent and the $199 GMC would make do for a few months and then make for a good stand by after you have gotten a 15 or 16" of better quality:D

The Luna is a a serious bit of kit with a wide and heavy die cast table. It is extremely heavy and at $1300 S/H not exactly cheap......for a 20 year old plus mchine with doubtful supplies of spares. It is a 2 cutter Combination machine that lacks some finesse in terms of adjustments and dust extraction but seems to work OK. Is this a reasonable price? I would have thought more like $1000?

I will also be visiting Woodwork Warehouse to take a closer look at the JET option. I believe the JET is so well engineered (from what I've read) that it is probably worth spending the money. The Rabetting Table also looks nicely designed and useful. I'm intrigued why an 8" JET thicknesser is double the price of the 6" unit? Even at $1500 for the 8'' unit there's serious materialand engineering count. I suspect a tool that will last a couple of lifetimes!