Sharpening

[bloggs1968]

Another query for the woodturning gurus.

I just watched Raffans DVD on woodturning and he free hand sharpens everything. When I did my course at tafe, we used jigs for everything. What do others do? I am happy freehanding any other tools like drill bits, chisels and plane irons.

I saw a scobie jig at the Sydney wood show and it seemed to do a lot for the price. Any opinions?

TIA

AD

[scooter]

Just freehand it AD, the jigs are invented & marketed for those who don't have the necessary skills and/or don't want to persevere to learn them.

Different strokes for diff. folks, that's all.


Cheers...............Sean

[China]

I've been sharpening freehand for 35 years it just takes a bit of time and patiance to get it right and I know I will cop some flak over this, but it is just not as critical as some would have you beleive

[Touchwood]

Well, I too did the TAFE bit and one of the gentlemen there kindly made us guides (I made them tool rolls) that I now have fixed to the front of the grinder - I wouldn't be without it. In my opinion I waste less of my tools and get consistent angles. But hey, I don't have the Y chromosome!!:)
JD

[Mr Unknown]

Yeah i used the jigs at TAFE but thats the only place i used them because the teacher told us we have to, in the trade id do it freehand and not worry about angles etc just like at TAFE they make you use an angled skew were mine was straight so i could use it as a parting tool aswell. I think TAFE did it a bit old fashioned cause its not like that anymore. Like china said it is not as critical as some would have u believe.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Freehand. When I'm turning I want to be turning, not faffing around using jigs.

There are some tools that are best sharpened with jigs, some of Sorby's more specialised stuff for example. Ring cutters and the like. Some people also find it impossible to freehand the swept-back wings on "ladyfinger" gouges (Ellsworth grind?) and should use a jig just for that.

But for normal, everyday profiles on tools such as skews, scrapers and gouges? Nah, not worth the effort or the expense. [shrug] After all, the avg person only loses a cm or two of tool steel in learning to get each profile right and from then on there's plenty of practice in honing the skills... ;)

[RETIRED]

After all, the avg person only loses a cm or two of tool steel in learning to get each profile right and from then on there's plenty of practice in honing the skills... ;)...........and the first 2-3mm is useless anyway.

[Tassie Boy]

...........and the first 2-3mm is useless anyway.


Why is this???
Cheers

[rowie]

with a little bit of practise, freehand is very quick, easy and yes, free.

[graemet]

I'll stick my hand up and go against the flow! I managed to stuff up many centimetres of tool steel before I got my Unijig, now my lady finger detail gouges can match it with the best of them and I only lose a fraction of a millimetre each time it gets too blunt for the hone to work. I don't do enough turning to ever get enough practice at freehand sharpening.
Cheers
Graeme

[Cliff Rogers]

I'm with Graeme... I have tried heaps of things & the Unijig or the gouge attachement for the Tormek on an 8" white wheel on the normal grinder is the best combination for me. (for gouges that is)
I just use a flat rest for scrapers & a Hiturn for my skews.
A Hiturn is like a flat rest with sliding angle.
I can take photos if anyone is interested.

[Doughboy]

Cliff I would be interested in seeing some pics...:)

Another thingI can learn can only make me a better person..;)

Pete:D

[Cliff Rogers]

I'll take some tomorrow morning.

[Christopha]

Woodturners sharpen freehand and get right on turning, those who aren't prefer rooting around use jigs....

[JimboJ]

HI all,
I use sandpaper to sharpen everything. The paper I use is good stuff with adhesive back, mounted to a piece of glass. 80, 120, 320, 1500. Then I move to 8000 stone. 80 grit is for stuff that really needs help. If I'm just honing I go straight to the 1500 with some jewlers rouge and then to 8000. When I do the curved side of gouges and stuff like that, I just wrap a small piece of sandpaper around a proper sized dowel and use that. The system works well for me, tools are razor sharp and I don't need to buy or set up any jigs.
Regards

[Stu in Tokyo]

The only thing I use a jig for is the swept back or winged grind on my bowl gouges, otherwise it is free hand.

I also use a double bevel grind on my bowl gouges, this is something I learned from Eli Avisera (http://www.avisera.co.il/content/default1.asp) when he was here for a demo.

I find that for the double bevel grind, it is easier and faster for me to use a jig.

At least I made the jig myself :rolleyes:

28520
The jig

28521
On the grinder

28522
The double bevel.

Works for me :D

[Gil Jones]

I use the Wolverine [and Veri-grind] setup, it works great, and it is fast. As for skews, I made my own attachment from Oak, but it is like the Wolverine skew jig. For me, this is the best way to sharpen.

[RETIRED]

Why is this???
CheersWrong shape.

Not sharp.

Because of the hardening process generally a bit softer than the main blade.

[baxter]

The time it takes to use a jig is nothing in the overall scheme of things. It can be the time you take to think about your shaping or just taking a break from the lathe.

For mine, I have just unpacked the Tormek that my wife bought me for my birthday.

I can't wait until next Saturday when she unwraps the jigs that I bought her for her birthday.

John H
Why do we never seem to cut "too long".

[Terry B]

I can't wait until next Saturday when she unwraps the jigs that I bought her for her birthday.

I can just imagine the smile (not) on my wifes face if I bought such a present. Good luck

[Cliff Rogers]

I'm a computer tech, I earn more than most 'woodturners' so I can afford to root around with jigs. http://www.ubeaut.biz/hjtwofinger.gif
As a matter of fact, I think that will have to be my new hobby, 'rooterer arounderer with jigs'. ( beat that one Sturdee. :D )

Anyway, as I said earlier, I'd post some photos.

1. Unijig5 similar to the one Stu posted. It has a bit of round mild steel loaded in it for testing what setting gives what result without eating good tool steel. I got the steel out of a wrecked printer.

2. Hiturn. I have owned it for 7 years, don't know where you can buy them now. The strip of Ali angle is an added fixture that allows me to pull the Hiturn off & get it back on it the same place in about 20 seconds. The platform angle is adjustable & it has a sliding insert for Skews & Gouges.

3. Hiturn used for scrapers without the sliding insert as a standard rest.

4. Hiturn used for Skews with the sliding insert to maintain the angles spot on.

5. Hiturn used for gouges that are ground straight across. The slider keeps the gouge square to the wheel & is only moved if you want to use a different part of the wheel.

If I didn't have the Unijig, I could use the Hiturn without the insert to sharpen swept back gouges by swinging the handle & rolling it slightly as I went but I don't have the talent without a lot of practice so I save the time for "turning" instead. ;)

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I've got to admit, I use a similar "jig" to the HiTurn, not that I'd class it as a jig. I simply made a replacement toolrest for the grinder yonks ago when I was welding at unusual angles. [shrug]

No sliding surfaces, just a flat plate on a "stalk" with a coach-bolt and nuts at top'n'bottom. One day I'll replace the nuts with wing-nuts. Maybe. :) The front of the top plate was replaced about a fortnight ago as 'twas getting a bit ratty.

It does make controlling the angle a lot easier, but one definitely needs to learn to roll the wrist. ;)

[rsser]

Stu, how does your swept-back grind last with hardwoods?

[cedar n silky]

Thought I'd put my 2 bob in. The jig that Stu and cliff (unijig5) put on this thread, is similar to a NZ product called Tru-grind system. I am looking to buy this jig, because it is cheaper than other systems, but also because the guy I took a couple of lessons form this year, swears by it. It will do all sorts, but it comes into it's own doing bowl gauges. Skews and scrapers are easy enough on a grinder jig like the one Skew put up, including parting tools and general woodworking chisels. The tru- grind is similar in function to another jig I saw years ago, which involved a pole that went right to the floor, and pivoted from that point, around your grinding wheel. The beauty of this is it only pivots at the base of your grinder, and the jig isn't over a meter long!! In my research I noticed that jigs come and go, and the manufacturers as well, but this system has been around a while. I'm looking forward to getting my jig in the mail!! I just love the look of a nicely sharpened tool!:)

[baxter]

I can just imagine the smile (not) on my wifes face if I bought such a present. Good luck
Terry,
Thanks for the good wishes, but shouldn't be a problem as the LITS was ecstatic the Christmas that I brought her a bandsaw.

[Stu in Tokyo]

Stu, how does your swept-back grind last with hardwoods?

Well, that depends, I've only been turning for a while, and the wood I've turned is mostly Keyaki (Zelkova). Green, it turns nice, dry, it is like freaking concrete! :eek:

Turning that stuff dry, I get minutes of turning, like 3 or 4 before I have to regrind.

I've turned some maple and that was like BUTTER compared to the Keyaki.

On finishing cuts, I sharpend more often.

PS, I really like the P&N tools!

Cheers!

[Bodgy]

The only thing I use a jig for is the swept back or winged grind on my bowl gouges, otherwise it is free hand.

I also use a double bevel grind on my bowl gouges, this is something I learned from Eli Avisera (http://www.avisera.co.il/content/default1.asp) when he was here for a demo.

I find that for the double bevel grind, it is easier and faster for me to use a jig.

At least I made the jig myself :rolleyes:

Works for me :D

I luvs ya, Stu.

You've just given me an item for my first attempt at casting!

A little more detail of yr jig would help, although removes a bit of the challenge.

[Tornatus]

The jig that Stu and cliff (unijig5) put on this thread, is similar to a NZ product called Tru-grind system. I am looking to buy this jig, because it is cheaper than other systems, but also because the guy I took a couple of lessons form this year, swears by it. It will do all sorts, but it comes into it's own doing bowl gauges.
I'm with you, C&S! In fact, the Tru-Grind jig was developed by Ken Port in NZ as a result of his dissatisfaction with limitations of the Uni-Jig, so his jig is an evolutionary improvement. I have used both, and I can testify that Ken's is significantly better to use. Having seen Ken demonstrate his jig on a visit to our Guild last year, even Richard Raffan commented that it gave a much more uniform and repeatable bevel in comparison to freehand.

I think there's a bit of inverse snobbery being shown by those who sneer at jigs as "a waste of turning time" - it takes no time at all to slip a gouge into the jig, set the grinding angle and extent of projection, and put the tool to the wheel. The trick when you first get the jig is to calibrate it for each tool and make a note of each angle setting (write it on the butt of the handle). Once calibrated, you will get the exact same profile each time, and waste the minimum amount of expensive HSS, compared to the frequently multi-faceted results of freehand. Sure, if you've been production turning for as long as Richard, you can produce perfect bevels at the flick of a wrist, but I don't have 30+ years to wait until I can perfect that sort of skill. I just want to be able to get a consistent, sharp result every time.

The Tru-Grind will also readily sharpen scrapers. As for skew chisels, I prefer the Veritas skew jig, which I have found gives excellent results for grinding a radius on these chisels.

After all that, what's best is what works for you, and while I enjoy reading about other people's different approaches to the same problem, I don't appreciate being sneered at by self-appointed experts because of the way I choose to skin my cat!

[Stu in Tokyo]

I luvs ya, Stu.

You've just given me an item for my first attempt at casting!

A little more detail of yr jig would help, although removes a bit of the challenge.

I'll try to get some more shots of it for you soon.

Cheers!

[Tim the Timber Turner]

I’m going to buy into this one.

I have been turning for 25 years and have never been real happy with the result of grinding gouges freehand .

Many years ago I tried the Glasser jig manufactured by Woodfast. I found it to be awkward and the resulting grind very aggressive.

A while back I set up a Tormek to grind gouges. It did a great job and the tool was very sharp, but overall the system was a bit slow to use. I didn’t like the way the gouges wore groves in the soft wheel. A replacement wheel was well over $200.
I don’t use it now because it’s messy. It seems whenever I want to use it, it’s out of water, The water and wood chips don’t mix well. It just sits in the corner until I need to sharpen the kitchen knives.

I was lucky enough to attend the Axminster show in 2005 where I met to some of the top demonstrators. I noticed that some of them were using jigs to grind gouges. After discussing this at some length with Les Thorne I decided to investigate this further when I returned home.

After some research I decided to set up a new 6” grinder with the Tru-grind system.
The Tru-grind was chosen because a flip up tool-rest was available as an optional extra. This tool-rest enables the conventional grinding of parting tools, scrapers and skews.
This means the jig doesn’t tie up one side of the grinder and prevent normal use.

I installed a double system with both 120 grit for sharpening and 60 grit for shaping. With the grinder stationary, I played around with the jig angles using my existing freehand ground gouges as a guide, when I found a setting which approximating my original freehand shape and angle I recorded the settings.

Les Thorne recommended a separate tool holder for bowl gouges and spindle gouges. By not having to change the angle on the tool holder, the gouge hits the wheel at exactly the same angle every time.

I now use this all the time and doubt I will ever return to freehand grinding of gouges.
I still freehand grind the rest of my tools using the adjustable tool-rest set to the required angle.

The time taken to grind is about the same as freehand.
The material removed is minimal so I expect the gouges to last longer.
The gouge is sharper off a 120 grit wheel.


Just a few points to finish.

I used to be a member of the “you don’t need jigs, learn to sharpen freehand” club. Not any more. The world has moved on and the jigs have improved.

Vic Wood did a positive review of an earlier version of the Tru-grind a while back.
Richard Raffan is currently evaluating the Tru-grind. I look forward to his opinion.

One last comment: I didn’t say it was cheap to set up a complete system.

Check out the Tru-grind at www.woodcuttools.com

[cedar n silky]

I’m going to buy into this one.

One last comment: I didn’t say it was cheap to set up a complete system.

Check out the Tru-grind at www.woodcuttools.com (http://www.woodcuttools.com)


Shes a "can of worms" this thread I reckon!!:eek:
The website needs a - in it. Its
www.woodcut-tools.com (http://www.woodcut-tools.com)

That will get you all there!:)

[bloggs1968]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I guess i'll freehand a few but I am also going to try the sabre jig from Carrolls - see http://www.cws.au.com/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=1107144916&product_id=1107398012

regards,

AD

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Another handy thing about being able to freehand: if you're turning somewhere that jigs aren't available, you won't have to choose between stopping once you've blunted all the tools at hand or having to ask someone else to do the deed.

Sure, use a jig(s) at home if you prefer, but learning to sharpen freehand is one step closer to mastering all the skills involved in turning.

[cedar n silky]

Another handy thing about being able to freehand: if you're turning somewhere that jigs aren't available, you won't have to choose between stopping once you've blunted all the tools at hand or having to ask someone else to do the deed.

Sure, use a jig(s) at home if you prefer, but learning to sharpen freehand is one step closer to mastering all the skills involved in turning.
I agree with you there Skew-100%;)

[hughie]

Sharpening with out a jig can take some time to master , especially on finger nail type gouges. Somewhere here there is a thread on doing this via piece of doweling shaped and hollowed out like a gouge. I thought this was good advice for some wishing to pick up the skills easily and cheaply.

I for one go for doing it with out a jig and as it has already been stated its part of the wood turners skill base.

But it aint for everyone! Heres another link to a jig that has some merit especially for the long grinds

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~kjeeves/heligrind/heligrind.html

[Stu in Tokyo]

I luvs ya, Stu.

You've just given me an item for my first attempt at casting!

A little more detail of yr jig would help, although removes a bit of the challenge.

More details here........

My Sharpening Stuff (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=356338#post356338)

Enjoy!

[La truciolara]

Free hand or with a jig?
I think most of what needed to be said has been said. Therefore I will only tell you what the students say. Even if I teach them to sharpen free hand during the 5 days training course, 80% of them have bought a sharpening gig after having worn out half of the length of their gouges trying free hand.
True, sharpening is part of the knowledge of the woodturners, but you have to realize that probably you will not be able to turn every day for several hours, therefore it might be far more economical to buy (or construct) a jig, and in addition you turning will always be very smooth. I am convinced buying a jig is a worth investment that repays itself in many ways.<O:p</O:p

[Waldo]

G'day,

This is a very timely discussion as I'm about to further set up my shed (don't tell SWMBo, but I love it ;) :cool: ).

I'm looking to for a jig with a simple flat surface as a rest to freehand sharpen with, nothing more other than it has to be sturdy and not some of the flimsy jigs you see around the place.

I've narrowed it down to one of two jigs, both of which come from Carroll's Woodcraft Supplies.

1. the Grinding Jig CJ-04 which sells for $49
http://www.cws.au.com/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=1107144916&product_id=1107369825

2. the Sabre Sharpening Centre which sells for $45?
http://www.cws.au.com/cgi/index.cgi/shopfront/view_product_details?category_id=1107144916&product_id=1107398012

What I like about the Sabre Sharpening Centre is that it has a longer bed and looks from what I can work out a bit stronger in design.

What I don't give a 2 hoot about is the tool holders that come with no. 2 as I want to freehand sharpen. The lack of ability to collapse the jigs doesn't come into it as they'll be permantely set up on the left of the g/grinder with a white al/oxide wheel.

I had a look at the Sturdy REst and Slide but don't like how the tool rest seems to be so small.
http://www.shop.woodcut-tools.com/product.php?xProd=229&xSec=12

I'm looking at one of the jigs from Carroll's because I want something strong that'll last and I don't have the materials to make one myself. So, which of the two do you lot think?

Thanks for your help in advance.

(Bugger, they're small pics. If you can't see them with a maginfying glass have a look at the websites for 'em - well they're tiny on my 23" screen lol)

[Stu in Tokyo]

Waldo, I'd not pay $50 or so for any of that stuff, but then that is me, I'd rather spend $5 on some steel and bolts and make them myself, they are NOT hard to make.

You can make some really stout units from wood as well.

Go look at them, see how easy they are to adjust etc, that would make the sale for me.

Cheers!

[Waldo]

G'day Stu,

Fair comment, I'll have a look at a few things I could make it out of at Bunnies and maybe go from there and see what transpires.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

You tell 'im, Stu! :D

Waldo, I still maintain that the basic gouge, scraper and skew profiles are simple to learn to freehand. Given a decent toolrest on the grinder, IMHO anyone who hasn't the co-ordination to pick these forms up fairly quickly shouldn't be allowed to handle anything sharp for their own safety's sake, let alone poke sharp things at rapidly rotating masses. :rolleyes:

The ladys' finger profile is the one most people come to grief with, and happily for us that's the jig that Stu has taken so many pix of. You have a shed, the tools and the ability... so build one! :p

[Waldo]

G'day Skew,

I'm not looking for a jig to take away from sharpening freehand, no worries there, just looking at a tool rest to get and hold my angles to the wheel. :)

I've figured out a few bits I can adapt so that I've got the basic structure of it made from galvanised steel or similar, so a bit of pottering around in the shed tomorrow should do the trick.

So a visit to Bunnies is in order, which I'll do on Saturday when I get the cornice, a bit more acrhitrave and skirting for the office.



(can't figure why I haven't received any emails saying I've had replies :confused: )

[Cliff Rogers]

Waldo, that Sabre (blue one) is a copy of what I bought as a Hiturn (red one)

I reckon it is good 'cos it has slots in the base so you can set up a couple of sets of bolts & wack it on & off either wheel in a hurry.

Look at the pics I posted, see how there is a strip of Ali angle that stays on the bench as a stop for it to slide upto each time I put it on & a couple of sets of bolts with wing nuts infront of each wheel?

I also have a rest similar to the Jig CJ-04 but it is back in the box it came in.

[scooter]

Chris, just FYI I have the rest in the first thumbnail & find it quite sturdy & easy to set. I've used it for grinding plane irons & chisels.

I paid $25 at the wood show about 2-3 years ago tho'


Cheers...............Sean

[Gino]

Hi Stu in Tokyo.

I don't understand the purpose of the double grind on your bowl gouge alla Eli Avisera?
I've only ever had one bevel which works fine. Good if you could explain.

regards

Gino

[Cliff Rogers]

More like variable bevel angle.

The bevel angle at the tip is different to the bevel angle on the sides so you can change bevel angle during the cut by moving the cut around the cutting edge.

Hope that makes sense.

[Stu in Tokyo]

Hi Stu in Tokyo.

I don't understand the purpose of the double grind on your bowl gouge alla Eli Avisera?
I've only ever had one bevel which works fine. Good if you could explain.

regards

Gino

I'm working on an explaination, but it is not an easy thing to write down, so pictures and even some video will be involved.

I'll post it here when I get it together.

Basically with the double grind, you can present the tool to the work in a very different manner, which lets the tool cut the wood, instead of scraping it. When I'm sucessful at this, I start sanding at #240 or higher, the cut is that smooth.

Cheers!

[rsser]

A simple platform will allow you to sharpen most things and there are designs around for home -made fingernail grind jigs. See eg. http://www.atbq.qc.ca/jm2/woodturnjigs.htm

I use the Chaiwanese platform pictured in the first thumbnail on p3 of this thread. Cost about $39. I like the mitre - allows me to choose my skew edge-to-shaft angle as well as to dress the wheel with a carbo stick or diamond held at right angles.

As for fingernail grinds, make your own jig or buy one - quality HSS is exxy and it's easier to learn how to use the gouge if it has a consistent bevel.

In my experience a swept-back or fingernail grind on a bowl gouge tends to lose it's edge rapidly on hardwoods so I freehand sharpen these on the platform with a bevel of around 45 degrees. I use the Sorby gouge jig for fingernails on the occasional foray into between-centres turning.

[Edit: Attached is Jean-Michel's gouge fingernail sharpening jig design; he kindly sent it some time ago and I'm assuming that he would be happy for others to benefit from his work, RIP]

[Gino]

Thankyou for your replies, I think I get it but I may speak to someone down at the club about it.
Stu please don't go out of your way with the photo's etc but if you end up doing it it will be apprieciated.

regards

Gino

[Waldo]

G'day,

Since I posted a question or two in here about jigs for freehand sharpening I thought I'd post my solution. :)

It's dead simple and cost me around about $17 in bits from my visit to Bunnies this arvo after I went down to Total Tools to pick up my A&A 8" b/grinder and stand. And while down there I found out that Abbott & Ashby b/grinders are no longer Aussie made :( .

Told SWMBO that I can probably make the jig for around $20 all up rather than buying a jig for $45, the cost saving still didn't impress her :confused: . Maybe it had something to do with me buying the b/grinder and stand - which I've since been told that will be my Father's Day pressie and Christmas pressie combined. Unwrapping Christmas pressies will be exciting for me this year. :(

Basically the jig is made up of 1 x 125mm saddle mount posts which is the bed for the jig, and 1 x 115mm saddle mount post which is the body of it. This pivots on a 1/2" bolt with some washers for shims and a 1/2" wingnut to make adjusting easy. All this will be bolted down to 20mm 7ply exterior ply. On the 125mm post I just have to cut off the two tabs which are folded in underneath there.

Fastened to the bed will be 19mm (I think) form ply which will have a 3/4" slot for a mitre gauge for when I'm hollow grinding chsiels etc. Just have to find a friendly bloke with a router who can cut the slot for me;) .

The other pic shows where the b/grinder will live in my shed.

I'm still laying out where the g/grinder will with the jigs on the ply so noting is bolted down yet.

(Yeah I know, there's no al' oxide wheel on there yet - it's coming)

[Cliff Rogers]

Good jig, shame about the beer. :cool:

[Waldo]

G'day Cliff,

I'll have a XXXX thanks. :D

I'll have some Gold Bitter in the fridge on occassions but my neighbour across the road and I will wander over to each other with a few tinnies and it's all he drinks and I like the stuff too.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Why didn't I think of that? What with all those potential toolrests I've had rattling around in one of my shed collections. Oh, the shame! The ignominy!

Hmmm... it looks like you need some more floor space for that bench grinder. You know where you can drop it off. ;)

[Waldo]

G'day Skew,

Shhh, don't tell SWMBO but I need to find space for another b/grinder with felt wheels. I'll buy a cheapie for it though and mount it on the post to the right of the floor mounted one, A&A have a real nice rest for 8" grinders that'll do real well.

Floor space :confused:, you've got some? :D

Know any blokes with a router?

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Hehehe. Someone likes living dangerously. :D

Floor space? Well... not exactly. But I am getting good at finding nooks'n'crannies for storing things. Works well, so long as I don't put anything there to "keep it safe."

Router, router. I vaguely remember one or two of them things rattling around here somewhere. I think I've a router table underneath one of my half-finished projects. Hmmm... I'm pretty sure I do, now that I think about it. ;)