Epoxy Clean-up

[onthebeachalone]

We had a very enjoyable weekend at the Caloundra Classic Boat Regatta on 5-6 August. (Including winning the paddling race with our Rough & Ready boatbuilding entry).

Unfortunately, at the end of the weekend, we were putting our ageing Mirror 16 Lulubelle on the trailer in a 25 knot breeze and got her slighly crooked. Had to wind her on quickly and heard a nasty scrunch! The ply on the bottom has a few dicey spots and one of these suffered some minor damage. It is not bad enough to justify turning her over so I have spent a couple of hours under her today, on stage 1 of repairs.

I now have epoxy up my arms, in my hair, on my face, etc.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

I'd be interested to know what others have found as the best solvent/technique to get the epoxy off but leave the skin on.

I know from experience that, if I just leave it, it eventually peels off. Hopefully there's a beter way?

[Auld Bassoon]

Acetone works befors the epoxy has set, but afterwards...

I know because some while ago I was expoxying the mounting brackets for a rail into a wardrobe and got some in my hair. I didn't notice until later :eek: The only solution was to take a razor to the lot - and the pi$$ taking was, well, you can guess!

[jmk89]

Also before it sets really hard, try some white vinegar (I buy 2 litre bottles of NO Names/Home Brand/Savings from the supermarket because it also loosens up PVA and yellow wood glue and removes rust from tools gently) - it shifts epoxy quite well and is cheap (and if worst comes to worst, you can add some oil and make salad dressing):D

[bitingmidge]

Acetone is bad stuff as it dissolves the bits and sucks them into your skin and hastens sensitivity.... apparently.

I like to use barrier cream before anything, then disposable gloves.

Of course I'm a messy beggar too, so I use the handcleaner Boatcraft sell, which is a citrus goo mixed with pumice.

Mick spiced it up a bit with vinegar too when the going got too tough.

Cheers,

P

[Boatmik]

Acetone is really Baaaaaaaaaaad stuff.

Avoid contact with the skin at all.

Mix epoxy and acetone together and you have a great method for transporting the allergens in epoxy through the skin barrier.

The biggest risk from epoxy is long term sensitisation in the form of a serious allergic reaction on breathing or contact. Exactly the same as being allergic to Western Red Cedar Dust or Horses - as I am - luck of the draw along with random results from the school immunisation program when I was young.

Direct Toxic effects are quite rare - the more troublesome ingredients in this regard are in such small concentrations

So yes - use vinegar for people. (doesn't need to be the finest balsamic, but add a little virgin olive oil and some greens ...)

Acetone only for brushes.

Use gloves and/or barrier creme (the epoxy peels off it when you have a shower that night)

[bitingmidge]

Use gloves and/or barrier creme (the epoxy peels off it when you have a shower that night)
Do not under any circumstance work so late and long that you are too tired to clean up before falling asleep on the nearest horizontal surface.

It was an "interesting" haircut.

P
:rolleyes:

[Toolin Around]

The first time I used vinegar I couldn't believe how well it worked, it completely destroys the epoxy. Vinegar works best on fresh epoxy. By far the best approach to cleaning it up that I have found. I won't use acetone or any other solvent. Just adds another extremely toxic chemical to the mix. And all it does is thin the epoxy so it can soak in farther. Be careful with your work though, you don't want to destroy the epoxy you have in the joint(s) so don't flood it on the project.

[Boatmik]

Yep - that's it, Toolin

The reason epoxy cures is because the hardener is alkaline (that's the ammonia smell you get when you first open the hardener bottle).

Add some acid (vinegar) to the epoxy and it will lose its interest in curing altogether.

Which is the reason it works for cleaning up.

But don't get any vinegar on your work - the epoxy won't cure and will gracefully slump to the floor - YUK

MIK

[onthebeachalone]

Thanks for the suggestions. Looks like I had better add a bottle of vinegar to my epoxying kit. I'm usually pretty good at remembering the latex gloves, old clothes, old glasses :cool: and other prophylactics (except sometimes when I get so engrossed in the job at hand that I have almost finished before I realise I'm still wearing my best shirt) :D.

On this occasion, once I noticed the epoxy running down my neck I grabbed a bottle of metho which seemed to work pretty well (externally applied ;)). At that stage I hadn't noticed it in my hair. Fortunately my good wife is a patient woman and she spent half an hour this morning snipping out the neatly epoxied dreadlocks :confused: that had formed. I think I had better get a couple of those hats they use in food preparation (or maybe just turn the boat over).

Thanks again!

Edited to add -

PS
By the way, is there any connection between acetone and acetic acid (vinegar), or is it just a coincidence that they both start with the same four letters?

[Boatmik]

You asked for it Onthebeach!

I haven't done this stuff for years, but here you are ...

I do talk about beer towards the bottom.

Acetyl is another name for methyl.

Looks like this

http://www.chemheritage.org/EducationalServices/pharm/glossary/acetyl.gif

It is of the formula CH3C0.

C is Carbon, O is oxygen, H is hydrogen. The 3 indicates 3 Hydrogens.

The zig zaggy arm going off to the left indicates that there is a free bond - it is ready to stick to some other atom or molecule or part thereof.

If it sticks to an OH group you end up CH3COOH - Acetic Acid - vinegar

Or sticks to something a bit more complicated
CH3CH2OH - Ethyl Alcohol - that's the nice one in beer.

Or sticks to something REAL complicated
CH3-CO-O-CH2-CH2-N+(CH3)3 - Acetylcholine - a neurotransmitter.

What sticks to that arm gives the physical properties - so with acetic acid it is that Hydrogen on the end that makes it an acid.

With Ethyl Alcohol it is the OH on the end that is the fun bit.

But if you get a methyl group ch3ch2O (written another way c2h5) mixed up in it to get methyl alcohol
C2H5OH then something different happens.

The OH at the end makes you all cheery and happy - OK so far - but then the body has to get rid of a much bigger waste product which the liver turns into all sorts of nasty things as it breaks it down

So this is where the pain comes from the next day!!!! Thank goodness there is only a tiny amount of methyl alcohol in beer - but enough to create a hangover.

The hangover is directly caused by the breakdown products formaldehyde and formic acid, both of which are toxic.

Methylated Spirits - is pure ethyl alcohol (which we could all drink happily) with a little bit of methyl alcohol added so most of us won't drink it because it tastes terrible and gives a monster hangover.

MIK

[meerkat]

See what happens onthebeach, you ask a question you get a reply.

Geez Mik you had me at You asked for it:D

I kept up until about half way and then had to have a nanna nap.:o

Nice explanation:)

Andrew

[Daddles]

I'm just wondering why Mik knows so much about drinking metho :confused:

Richard

[bitingmidge]

I'm just wondering why Mik knows so much about drinking metho :confused:

I know that he cooks with it.

P
;)

[Boatmik]

... and I cook in the dark - so sometimes it is not olive oil that I'm putting in the pot - bottles are about the same size and shape

MIK

[mic-d]

I know it's not a chemistry forum, but I thought I would chime in with a bit of fine tuning, hey sorry MIK, its just the chemist in me :D




Acetyl is another name for methyl.


No it's not, acteyl refers to the group you indicated in the piccy, but methyl indicates just CH3, as in methane (CH4) methyl alcohol or methanol CH3OH




http://www.chemheritage.org/EducationalServices/pharm/glossary/acetyl.gif

It is of the formula CH3C0.

C is Carbon, O is oxygen, H is hydrogen. The 3 indicates 3 Hydrogens.

The zig zaggy arm going off to the left indicates that there is a free bond - it is ready to stick to some other atom or molecule or part thereof.

If it sticks to an OH group you end up CH3COOH - Acetic Acid - vinegar


Yep that's right



Or sticks to something a bit more complicated
CH3CH2OH - Ethyl Alcohol - that's the nice one in beer.

Nope there's no acetyl group in ethyl alcohol or ethanol, but the formula you have there is correct. If you combine an acetyl group with ethanol you end up with ethyl acetate, the nice smelling solvent often used in nail polish remover in preference to acetone. Ethyl acetate is what's known as an ester, and these are largely responsible for the beautiful smells in nature, like bananas, strawberries etc.





What sticks to that arm gives the physical properties - so with acetic acid it is that Hydrogen on the end that makes it an acid.

With Ethyl Alcohol it is the OH on the end that is the fun bit.


OK


But if you get a methyl group ch3ch2O (written another way c2h5) mixed up in it to get methyl alcohol
C2H5OH then something different happens.

The OH at the end makes you all cheery and happy - OK so far - but then the body has to get rid of a much bigger waste product which the liver turns into all sorts of nasty things as it breaks it down

So this is where the pain comes from the next day!!!! Thank goodness there is only a tiny amount of methyl alcohol in beer - but enough to create a hangover.

The hangover is directly caused by the breakdown products formaldehyde and formic acid, both of which are toxic.

Methylated Spirits - is pure ethyl alcohol (which we could all drink happily) with a little bit of methyl alcohol added so most of us won't drink it because it tastes terrible and gives a monster hangover.

MIK



The toxicity from methanol comes from the metabolites formaldehyde and formic acid as you pointed out, but a hangover is the result of the metabolites of ethanol not methanol (well unless you drink metho :D ) acetaldhyde amongst them. The beer making process only produces minute traces of methanol, not enough to be toxic.

Cheers and sorry to be a PITA:D
Michael
P.S. As many correctly pointed out acetone should not be used to clean anything off your hands.
PPS. Acteone is the acetyl group linked to a methyl group, it belongs to a group called ketones. Acetone's actually a natural metabolite in the body, but when metabolism is skewed by a disease such as diabetes, it builds up to such high levels that you can smell it on their breath - that's bad.

[Boatmik]

Bugger!

It's clearly been much too long! And I was always better at inorganic chem anyhow!

Thanks for the correction.

MIK

[Toolin Around]

Hmmm interesting high jack. I'm one of those that suffers really bad hangovers. When I drink beer and water in at least a 1 to 1 ratio the hangover is far-less than if I don't. So what's taking place here. Also if that weren't enough... I once got absolutely out of my tree in Italy. Staggered back to my hotel room. Because I also had a cold I popped a fairly strong decongestant before I went to bed. Woke up the next morning with absolutely no symptoms at all of a hang over - so what could be going on there.

[Boatmik]

Hmmm interesting high jack. I'm one of those that suffers really bad hangovers. When I drink beer and water in at least a 1 to 1 ratio the hangover is far-less than if I don't.

A lot of the suffering is from dehydration. To get rid of the Alcohol the body uses up a lot of its water reserves. That's where quite a bit of the suffering comes from too.


So what's taking place here. Also if that weren't enough... I once got absolutely out of my tree in Italy. Staggered back to my hotel room. Because I also had a cold I popped a fairly strong decongestant before I went to bed. Woke up the next morning with absolutely no symptoms at all of a hang over - so what could be going on there.

Could be that there was less methyl alcohol (the bigger molecule) in the local booze - and the decongestant kept you snoring away while the body got rid of the toxic mess.

Did you start drinking the next morning? Hair of the dog does work.

Or it could be LUCK!

MIK

[Boatmik]

I know it's not a chemistry forum, but I thought I would chime in with a bit of fine tuning, hey sorry MIK, its just the chemist in me :D

I can see my error - I started counting from CH4 rather than remembering that ethane was C2H6!!!!

Eureka!
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=10486

MIK

[onthebeachalone]

Yes, but!... Yes, but!... Yes, but!...

What is the chemistry as to why both metho AND vinegar seem to be effective in removing un-set EPOXY? Did I miss something?

My impression from this obviously very learned thread is that metho is probably another solvent having a similar effect to acetone, whereas vinegar actually neutralises the hardener so the mix doesn't set.

One could be excused for thinking that the vast amount of experience constituted in this forum is a little ancillary to the actual boat building, and more to do with other happy-making, shed-based activities :D.

[Boatmik]

The Vinegar, being acidic, neutralises the alkaline conditions necessary for the epoxy to cure.

The metho was a fluke - I have tried to use it in the past with nil effect so I am not convinced that it did work.

If it did it won't be for the same reason as the vinegar above.

Maybe someone can do a little experiement to see if it does work.

C'mon Daddles - you are normally up to your elbows in the stuff - HELP.

MIK

[Daddles]

Don't drag me into this hippy reactionism:D

I'm afraid that chemistry is a bit like electronics with me (I subscribe to the smoke theory in both :eek: ).

Richard

[Boatmik]

Howdy Daddles,

Not asking you to plumb the depths of theoretical chemistry - being a bit more practical.

I know that you work carefully with the right gear etc to avoid epoxy contacting your bod at all - yes folks - his building area is like a hospital operating theatre - but next time an errant drop gets on the momentarily exposed flesh of your wrist - can you try to get it off with metho.

Hmmmm - we might be waiting for some time I guess with your clinical approach. Maybe a forced experiment - put a couple of drops on bits of rag.

Wash one in metho, the other with your normal method and find out whose wash is whiter than white, Mrs Jones.

Possible?

MIK

[onthebeachalone]

I have to do some more 'poxying tomorrow. I will experiment and publish the results.

How about I get a jar of vinegar, a jar of metho, and a jar of water (as a control). After I have mixed some epoxy (I'm using West System), I will dip an iceblock stick in the epoxy then stir it around in the sample and see what happens.

Repeat the process with a fresh stick for each sample.

Should I do this with the filler powder mixed in to make it a bit thicker?

Expected results might be -

Dissolve readily, reluctantly, or not at all.
Drip off the stick into globules.
Set completely (hard), partially (soft) not at all (unchanged)
Set fast or slow.
Any other suggestions about what to observe?


By the way, I forgot to mention that a bar of SOLVOL also proved very useful :rolleyes:.

Cheers

[Daddles]

Does it matter if the metho is mixed with orange juice? :eek:

Actually, dredging the depths of my memory - dammit, do I really keep that sort of stuff down there?:( Anyways, I reckon I have done this, back before I started keeping a bottle of vinegar in the shed, and I don't reckon metho worked too well, or it might have been turps. Dammit, I have no idea (shuddup Midge :mad: ).

I'll give it a go. I rarely get goop on me though I go through more latex gloves than the local hospital (thank heavens Ansel produce a great glove in boxes of 100 at a really good price) and, fortunately, don't have an alergic reaction yet. Actually, the same test could be done on a bit of plastic couldn't it, rather than smear it on one's self.

Thing is, el cheapo vinegar works well, is cheaper and you can hide the purchase among the food shopping :D (I do that as much as possible - helps me pretend I'm not spending as much on boats, though I wish Woolies would start stocking poxy, gaboon and inspection ports ;) )

Richard

[Daddles]

yes folks - his building area is like a hospital operating theatre ... in a three deck man o war during a fleet action :cool:
I dropped my cordless drill the other day and still haven't found it.

Richard

[stevebaby]

We had a very enjoyable weekend at the Caloundra Classic Boat Regatta on 5-6 August. (Including winning the paddling race with our Rough & Ready boatbuilding entry).

Unfortunately, at the end of the weekend, we were putting our ageing Mirror 16 Lulubelle on the trailer in a 25 knot breeze and got her slighly crooked. Had to wind her on quickly and heard a nasty scrunch! The ply on the bottom has a few dicey spots and one of these suffered some minor damage. It is not bad enough to justify turning her over so I have spent a couple of hours under her today, on stage 1 of repairs.

I now have epoxy up my arms, in my hair, on my face, etc.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

I'd be interested to know what others have found as the best solvent/technique to get the epoxy off but leave the skin on.

I know from experience that, if I just leave it, it eventually peels off. Hopefully there's a beter way?Baby wipes.Cheap no-frills baby wipes remove epoxy when it's wet,cost $2+ or so,cleans epoxy off tools etc like magic too.
Nobody ever believes me until they try it though.:DSafe and easy to use too.

[catbuilder]

Howdy all

This is sort of related, I'm using West System Epoxy with the dispensing pumps, the hardener pump sticks quite often due to hardener I suppose 'goin off' or exposed on the sort of piston on the pump. Could anything like the vinegar be used to give the pump a good clean out.:o

Thanks

Matt

[Boatmik]

I wouldn't put vinegar in any place where it may get into an epoxy mix.

Read about Daddles lightbox - it is really worth making one of these to keep the epoxy warm - you'll get ten - twenty times the mileage before the pumps pack it in.

MIK

[onthebeachalone]

Hi

Finished the Epoxy stage of repairs on Lulubelle over the weekend. Just some touch-up painting painting to do before our next outing. While mixing epoxy for the job I did a little experiment.

I was using WEST System 105 Resin with 206 Hardener and 411 Microsphere Blend filler. I mixed it to the consistency of, say, golden syrup.

I then put small dollops on three iceblock sticks and put these in small jars containing water, metho and vinegar respectively. I gave each a gentle stir.

Water (control)
In water the epoxy showed no sign of dissolving but floated off the stick in globules. Some floated, some sank. An hour later it looked much the same. (See picture)
http://www.profitworks.com.au/Epoxy/E_water.jpg
next day the globules had hardened. All pretty much as expected.

Metho
In metho it dissolved almost immediately leaving a small floating island of undissoved residue (presumably the filler powder). The metho seemed unaffected. An hour later it looked much the same. (See picture)
http://www.profitworks.com.au/Epoxy/E_metho.jpg
next day it looked the same and nothing had hardened. My impression was that the metho had dissolved the resin, leaving the filler powder more-or-less coagulated together.

Vinegar
In vinegar it formed floating globules of various sizes, similar to in water. An hour later a milky suspension had fomed, most of which had sunk to the bottom. (see picture).
http://www.profitworks.com.au/Epoxy/E_vineg.jpg
next day the milky suspension was more dense. Some globules were still there but they showed no sign of hardening. My impression was that the vinegar reacted chemically with the resin, basically destroying its ability to harden.

Conclusion

Both Vinegar and Metho seemed effective as clean-up agents but apparently for different reasons. Anyway, now I have a new bottle of vinegar so I guess I'll be using that for a bit.

Cheers

[Daddles]

Hmm, intersting. Personally, I'll stick to vinegar ... because, like you, I've got a bottle of it in the shed and not of metho :D Good to know you can use both though.

Thanks for the test

Richard

[Aberdeen]

Richard,
I'll stick with the vinegar....it works for me..... plus if the wife remembers I'm down the shed and brings hot chips I'm ready.....

[Bob38S]

Also before it sets really hard, try some white vinegar (I buy 2 litre bottles of NO Names/Home Brand/Savings from the supermarket because it also loosens up PVA and yellow wood glue and removes rust from tools gently) - it shifts epoxy quite well and is cheap (and if worst comes to worst, you can add some oil and make salad dressing):D

Likewise as above - when using it for rust removal - I don't throwout the "used" vinegar - it is highly discoloured and has a fuzz on it - but I remove the fuzz and then save the used vinegar for the next rust job - it seems to work fine.
Bob
:D:):D

[Boatmik]

Didn't know that Meths would work at all!!!!!

Excellent!!!!

Wonder how the three will go if the epoxy has started to gel off a little - that sortof cheesy state.

MIK