building a workbench

[benchdog]

Hi fellow woodies,

ive been looking at this forum for a couple of weeks and have been dabbling in amateur woodwork for a few years, love this site from what ive seen so far:cool:

i am a self-taught (with books, video and internet help) woodworker who has built some basic furniture, little boxes and a few other assorted items.

i am starting to renovate an old house and looking at building in some wardrobes in the bedrooms and some kitchen benches and cabinets.

to help me further my hobby interests as well as the renovations i am committed to, i want to build a proper woodworkers' workbench. research ive done so far at the library and online point towards a cabinetmakers' bench but a joiners bench would be easier to make.

what i am asking for is some replies about bench hardware - vises (types and location), benchdogs (thats me) (round or square, wooden or metal) , holddowns, presence or lack thereof of a tool till, bench deadman, finishes for the benchtop (durable, attractive, high friction to grip the workpiece), desirability of onboard storage and sugggestions for the best way to achieve this).

the research i have done indicates that the best way to go is to buy the bench hardware first, then plan (or modify the plan) to suit the hardware you have.

i have a suitable quantity of 2400x75x50 hardwood (type unspecified) seasoning under the house for the project, it literally fell off the back of a truck, straight into my trailer. with the timber being supplied at the right price i an prepared to pay top dollar for the bench accessories but i dont want to waste money unnecessarily if a cheap product is suitable for my purposes and more expensive product has no real advantage for the extra charges.

i welcome links to other websites, books and more importantly advice from members who have hands-on experience with building quality workbenches.


thanks,

benchdog

[HJ0]

Read all this.;)

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=27697&highlight=WORKBENCH




HJ0

[benchdog]

Read all this.

Ive read all that, like i said ive researched the project. not wishing to detract from the worthy contributions made to that thread, it does not provide definitive answers any of the specific questions i have raised.

not one reply to the thread discriminates between a joiners bench and a cabinetmakers bench and despite the best efforts of the thread originator to seek original input, the more he tries to digress from traditional wisdom the more it sems that the "brains trust" are pushing the thread back into the tried and proven ways of the old craftsman.

Dont get me wrong, i like the creative input such as including (aluminium) "t" track in the design but i dont think it would last 5 minutes in a properly designed workbench top subjected to the pounding such a workbench should be designed to take.

thanks,

benchdog

[boban]

If money was no object, I would buy the Tucker vise (pattenmakers vice) and twin screw vise, both from Lee Valley.

I dont really care whether the dogs are round or square.

Benches just seem to be a topic where there is such a diverse range of opinions that it is doubtful that anyone could provide you with an 'answer' as such. It more or less depends on what you want to do with it.

I think you have your top sorted. There's one dilemma out of the way.

As for vices, I gave you my unfinancial opinion. Taking finances into account, I would go for a Jet (Record type) vice for $139 and either another Jet vice to use as a tail vice (the easier way) or build a traditional tail vice (cheaper but more labour intensive).

I have read somewhere that it is better to stop reading after a little while and just start building it. Get started on your base and then worry about the hardware for the vices, etc.

[Flowboy]

Hi Benchdog,

I agree with Boban, start building the frame and decide what you want on top as you go. You will need two vices at least one with high capacity.

As to bench dogs and hold downs, your call. There are lots of options out there, look at some of the online catalogues.

The shape and set up of a bench is really a highly personal thing, and depends on your type of work, height, space available and type of timber yu want to use.

Regards,

Rob

[RufflyRustic]

Hi and Welcome Benchdog

My approach and suggestion:

Build a stable, but Q&D workbench, very basic, not too large. Use it for awhile and see what you like and don't like about it, watch how you work with the bench and maybe this will help guide you in building a workbench that will suit how you work. The old workbench can then be another work area, finishing table, garden potting table for SWMBO, etc etc.

I did this, built a Q&D workbench and now that I've been using it for about, gee ~ 2 years, I have a very firm idea on how my new workbench will be with number one need being straight, stable and nearly unmoveable. Other design points - where the tool well is, where the vice will be, the type of vice I'd like, height etc etc.

Even so, I don't think this will be my ultimate workbench.

Good Luck!

Cheers
Wendy

[IanW]

Benchdog,
I agree with the others that there comes a time to stop reading, and just go and build a bench. I suppose it's possible to build the 'complete' bench first up, and never need to change for the rest of your life, but I have yet to meet anyone who's actually done it. We all start out with the idea we'll build the bench of benches, but most w'workers who have been in the game a long time are on their 2nd or 3rd or later version. As you settle in to the type of work you do, you figure out what you really need, keep the useful bits, and discard the window-dressing that you once thought was so essential.

I'm on my 4th bench, with close to 40 yrs of 'serious' wood-butchery behind me. The bench I use now has served me well for about 20 years, but I am planning to make one more before I croak, just for fun. It will be a little longer and wider than the current one, but pretty much the same in all other respects. I do mostly furniture, all styles and periods, pretty well all solid wood, but occasional veneered projects, and quite a bit of turnery involved where appropriate. For this, a pretty standard European style bench with a traditional tail vice, single row of dog-holes, and a good hefty front vice hold just about anything I need held.

There must be jobs where patternmakers' vices are essential (else they wouldn't exist, would they!) but I have never felt such a pressing need that I was willing to shell out the extra $$s. Granted, for some jobs, I have to use a jig, or some extra help, and maybe the patternmakers' vice would save time there, but I have the luxury of time, and can usually solve the problem pretty easily. An example is shaping cabriole legs, where holding the sawn blank in a (wooden) sash clamp which is held in the front vice, makes the job easy to get at.

So I suggest that you will waste more time and effort trying to build THE bench, first up - the one that does everything perfectly, whatever you may chose to do in the future. Get one up and running, and find out what you want to do most, and make vers. II to suit.

As far as finish goes - anything that stops glue sticking to the surface, would be my suggestion. I've always used Danish-type oil and a good waxing of the top every year or so, and that works well. The inevitable globs of dried glue can be easily flicked off the surface with a scraper.

FWIW,

[Chris Parks]

I dont really care whether the dogs are round or square.




Have both. Drill round holes in the bench and put a square block on the round bench dog to convert it to a square one, or any shape in between.

[Barrie Restall]

Hi Benchdog,

I can sympathsize with your problem. When I started I made a traditional bench from the Triton project book, bought the best vice I could find (an English one I think) and the mechanism for the end vice and fabricated the runners etc. It still serves me well.

But then I needed some layout space so I made a large solid table, puts some cupboards in it for storage, added another vice, use it a lot.

As I have a long narrow work area I found I needed another mobile surface, so I made another table (lighter) that gets trundled about as needed. Then I made a smaller bench and cupboards to take a small drill press and other odds and ends.

All this stuff is used frequently but I never made anything I didnt need, and only made it as the need arose.

So I suggest you get on it, buy the best gear you can afford, make a solid bench to start and then add stuff as the need arises.

Good luck.

Barrie Restall

[benchdog]

Get started on your base and then worry about the hardware for the vices, etc.


I agree with Boban, start building the frame and decide what you want on top as you go. You will need two vices at least one with high capacity.

nice idea guys but a workbench is all about the work surface that is going to be used. how can you possibly build the base and then build the work surface to fit the base and still end up with a good bench? logic surely dictates that the work surface is of primary importance and the base is just to hold a carefully designed and crafted work surface at a good comfortable working height and solidly. seems you two guys were having a temporary lapse of sanity last night?http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif


If money was no object, I would buy the Tucker vise (pattenmakers vice) and twin screw vise, both from Lee Valley.

nice vises boban but i doubt i would need half the features more than once a lifetime so i cant justify that decadence, but i can understand your passion for them.


I dont really care whether the dogs are round or square.

my gut feeling is that round benchdogs would be more versatile but square benchdogs would be more secure. there must be a reason that the square benchdogs are set at 87 degrees in the traditional designs. there is also the consideration that the round holes are considered by some to be more prone to elongation and distortion over time than the square ones. obviously round dog-holes at right angles to the work surface are going to be the easiest to make but are they going to be the best in the long term? you only have to make them once but you have to use what you make for several years. i dont mind going to extra effort to make something right if it is going to save me time through subsequent projects


build a stable, but Q&D workbench,

nice to see some sensible input rufflyrustic but i dont do q&d


Have both. Drill round holes in the bench and put a square block on the round bench dog to convert it to a square one, or any shape in between.

thanks for that mini, dont know what i would do without your input. it will keep me busy for weeks experimenting with that;)

Thanks for your input ianw and barrie, your comments are giving me some things to think about

thanks to all

benchdog

[Barrie Restall]

Hi Benchdog,

Dont forget to let us know what you end up doing, with a photo if possible. Its nice to know how others solve their problems.

Regards,

Barrie

[boban]

nice idea guys but a workbench is all about the work surface that is going to be used. how can you possibly build the base and then build the work surface to fit the base and still end up with a good bench? logic surely dictates that the work surface is of primary importance and the base is just to hold a carefully designed and crafted work surface at a good comfortable working height and solidly. seems you two guys were having a temporary lapse of sanity last night?http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/images/icons/icon10.gif

Have a look at most workbenches and the variance seems to be in the tops.

Granted not all bases are suitable for all tops, but other than the shoulder vise type with the extra leg, I can't think of too many designs that dont revolve around a rectangular base (and I have a few books on the subject).

On such a rectangular base you can build virtually any type of top you can think of. Quite sane I would have thought. All the angst tends to come from choosing the layout/hardware for the top. I figured you could get started and make your decisions on the top some time down the track. What it is about the base that you think would limit your options?

Don't know about you, but time for woodworking is scarse for me. I'd much rather use the time "doing something" rather than thinking too much about how I might do something.

I'm building two bases at the moment (after work) and I'm still not sure how the top is going to be set out. Call me nuts if you like.

[arose62]

So that they don't tilt and lift the workpiece up off the bench.

The slight angle gives them a small downward action on the workpiece, or if there's slop in the dog hole, they'll tilt closer to 90 degrees, but hopefully not past it.

Cheers,
Andrew

[Auld Bassoon]

One small but important point: If you are starting from scratch I'd suggest morticing the boards before joining them up for the top so that you can have rectangular cross-section dogs; after the top is made up, circular cross-section is the only reasonably practical option.

Why the rectangular dogs? Simply because they are better able to hold/clamp workpieces in my view. However, LV's Wonderdogs are great if a bit exy.

I'd also go with a vice that has a dog hole in it - both for face and tail vices. Also, my preference would be for a Scandanavian style tail vice - the type where there is a front element as well.

Cheers!

[Auld Bassoon]

Per the 87 deg point: I believe that LV's dogs have an in-built 2 ~ 3 degree downwards camber to meet the same design goals but for after-thought holes drilled vertically.

[Flowboy]

Hi all,

Now that sanity has returned, I still agree with Boban. My number one constraint was space, so I determined the size of frame that would give me acceptable work area and started from there. I can change the design to suit what I may want at any given juncture, from a typical Cabinet Maker's bench to the Sewish looking number at Carbatech to what it is now.
I installed round dogs in the bench top and the LV Chain driven vise jaws. (In fact I am going to move the LV to the side of the bench to help with long panels which I currently use the Carbatech large vise for. All I need to do is buy another length of skirt, predrill and mount.)
The reason for round dog holes is ease of use with the LV Wonder dogs, pups and bench holddowns ( they're excellent Steve) and more importantly, they were very easy to bore into the top and jaw using a drill press and 3/4" Forstner bit.
It's a pity you don't do Q&D because; a) You'd be working already and; b) You'd be learning exactly what your bench needs to provide.
I'm outta here. Advice is one thing, bashing your head against a brick wall cause it feels good when you stop is another.

In frustration

Rob

[benchdog]

Now that sanity has returned,.....

looks like i better start paying more attention, seems like i missed it on the way out AND on the way back, thats assuming it was here in the first place and assuming it returned. sometimes i wonder and sometimes i just know.

[Schtoo]

The next bench I make will be a big thing, bigger than the one I have now which is 6' x 3'. At least 2" thick through the middle, 3-4" thick skirts and even possibly a 5' square. I'll also get under the floor to make sure it can be supported and so I can lock it down properly. My current bench is close to 200kg, and it still dances about occasionally.

For hardware, I'll prolly end up making most of it, but it will be homebrew clones of Veritas gear. It's cheaper for me to cast the stuff here than it is to buy it and pay shipping. Besides, if I want one whole side to be a vise, I can have it.

If I were buying it, I'd grab 2 vise screws and fit one large on the front, a small on the end. Then a 2 screw Veritas on the other end. The only subsititute I'd make would be to use a 'Tucker' (or Emmert clone) in place of one of the other vises. Dogs? Prolly a couple rows of squares down the length to suit the 2 screw, then various round ones where I want them, and drill them in at any time. If the round ones were to match with the face vise, then I'd also run threaded rods along with width of the bench to prevent it pulling itself apart when you crank down the face vise on the dogs. Using round holes, punched in where wanted also lets you use the wonderdogs, which are a great idea, and also lets you use holdfasts which are great too.

For a board jack, I'd prolly just run a series of holes down the front face so I can slip in a dowel to support the board when it's in the face vise. Maybe a proper board jack, maybe even a bunch of nuts under the bench top and a travelling vise head. I don't know just now.

I wouldn't make a tool well, but I would give serious though to a couple large drawers just under the top, but far enough down that they won't interfere with dogs and vises. Much easier to just close the drawer than to have to clean out a tool well all the time. Plus, my bench is a magnet for junk, I don't need any more encouragement to collect junk on the bench. ;)

For a finish, prolly what I call tool goop, which is a 45% BLO, 45% Polyurethane, 10% turps. Soaks in, tough, just smear it on and it works. Also pretty economical since it you just smear it on, and not much doesn't soak in. When it gets grotty, plane the bench smooth again and re-apply. If I wanted to get all hysterical about it, I'd smear on a coat of laminating epoxy, and sand it back smooth. Not grippy,but harder than hades and tougher than old boots. Also not really kosher, but not much will stick to it. I'd prolly be more inclined to use the epoxy if forced to use an open grained wood like ash, oak or elm.

I'd like to use hard maple for the top, if I can get it cheap enough. It does move a lot, but with the long bolts, just tighten them up once a week for a few months and the thing won't want to do much wiggling. I'd also be inclined to use lots of thin laminations to try and help keep the top flat rather than a handful of wide, thick boards. A definite preference for close, tight grained wood, but I'd take almost anything that would work. I might even have a line on miles of teak, which would be very, very nice. :D

Base would probably be thick section oak, since I know I can get it and for a good price. Failing that, laminations of whatever was available.


That's what I will do, when I decide to upgrade my bench, if I ever actually get there. But I wouldn't know what I actually wanted if I didn't do a quick and dirty bench to start with. I think jumping in with the best bench you can manage first time out is asking for regrets when you realize it has shortcomings that you would have known, if you had a bench to begin with. ;)

[benchdog]

I wouldn't make a tool well, but I would give serious though to a couple large drawers just under the top, but far enough down that they won't interfere with dogs and vises. Much easier to just close the drawer than to have to clean out a tool well all the time. Plus, my bench is a magnet for junk, I don't need any more encouragement to collect junk on the bench.

i agree Schtoo, i dont think a tool well is needed. i would rather build a separate tool trolley which can be moved around the bench and the whole workshop, as mentioned in another workbench thread, think its newlou's thread (cnat remember whose post it was inthe thread). i dont think i need any onboard storage in drawers or cupboards, space isnt such a premium in my workshop.

benchdog

[IanW]

i agree Schtoo, i dont think a tool well is needed. i would rather build a separate tool trolley which can be moved around the bench and the whole workshop,
benchdog

BD - If you build the traditional style 'European' benchtop, with the heavy baulks of wood across the ends (which form part of the vice structures), the tool well serves a vital purpose. It allows some expansion and contraction of the top to occur, without busting the skirt. On mine, the top is entirely surrounded by heavy long-grain pieces, the only 'free' end is the front of the left hand piece which carries the nut for the tail vice (see pic). The left side is lap-dovetailed to the front skirt. I chose not to use the traditional open front vice, for several reasons, but mostly because of space considerations. It would be handy to have something that can hold a wide board on edge while you saw dovetails, etc. I get around it by clamping the board to the front skirt, but someday I'll get around to finishing the twin-screw gadget I started years ago!.

Since I favour this type of bench, I'm stuck with having a tool well. It is useful - you can get tools etc out of the way while you fit bits together on an unimpeded surface, but you're all dead right in that it becomes a graveyard for junk. I try to clean mine out at the end of each day to prevent the deep-litter effect, but stuff still accumulates. Unfortunately, this sort of stuff will accumulate in your mobile tool tray, too, and you may not have as much incentive to clean it out as often!

[BobL]

logic surely dictates that the work surface is of primary importance and the base is just to hold a carefully designed and crafted work surface at a good comfortable working height and solidly. seems you two guys were having a temporary lapse of sanity last night?[/IMG]


I don't think we are necessarily all that logical about what we do ;-) Many of usare inspired "make-it-up-as you go along" tinkerers, or mostly half way in between. Most of my one-of projects are planned in some detail and then just before I start, I put the plans aside and use a big dolop of make it up as I go, occasionally borrowing from the plans as required.

[benchdog]

I don't think we are necessarily all that logical about what we do ;-) Many of usare inspired "make-it-up-as you go along" tinkerers, or mostly half way in between. Most of my one-of projects are planned in some detail and then just before I start, I put the plans aside and use a big dolop of make it up as I go, occasionally borrowing from the plans as required.

BobL, thats about how i do most of my work too. and in this case i wont be starting conbstruction until i can envisage the benchtop in my mind. it is the first part of the project. then and only then can i start to work on the base. all the base is, is something to hold the benchtop the right height off the ground, with maybe some onboard storage. the top might even sit on a pile of bricks while i work on a suitable base. to me they are alnost two separate projects, sorry if thats too "logical" for you, its just the way i am. im not criticising you, just explaining what works for me.

[loz]

Cant resist joining in thebench debate - my bench for 18 months was the top slab of a collection of 60 x 900 x 3.0m radiata slabs sitting on a couple of saw horses. Solid enough to do just about anything on but a bit of a pain because I eventually intend turning it in to a table so I couldn't drill, cut, score or otherwise deface the surface.

I am now facing the same dilemma as you and have basically decided build something first and if it doesnt work, start again. I am still debating wheels or no wheels (locking of course).

Good luck with yours

[BobL]

Benchdog,
If you are concerned about getting the exact height then you can always build in height adjustment from the beginning.

My bench started out with 100mm long 3/4" bolts into the bottoms of the legs to use a levelling and height adjustment. After working at the bench for a few weeks I realized it was still too low and the 50 mm or so vertical adjustment was insufficient. I could have replaced the 100 mm with longer bolts but I also wanted to add vertical drawers to the bench. So I remade the base of the bench added a 100 mm thick rectangular base held to the bench with 220 mm long 3/4" threaded rod.

You can see the before and after at http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=313135&postcount=37

[benchdog]

So I remade the base of the bench added a 100 mm thick rectangular base held to the bench with 220 mm long 3/4" threaded rod.

good thinking, BobL, and it illustrates the point i was making earlier that you build the work surface first, then build or rebuild the base. not meaning to labour a point but the benchtop/worksurface is of primary importance and has to be designed around the available and chosen vise and holddown/benchtop hardware. the base has the following functions (in order of importance):

- to hold the chosen work surface securely and with stability at the chosen height, with a degree of adjustment to allow for unlevel flooring and allowing height matching with other major workshop equipment eg tablesaw. (all this is assuming the use of quality hardware).

- to not obstruct access to the use of the chosen work surface, eg no tripping hazards or protrusions which will inhibit the effective use of the bench.

- to allow the efficient inclusion of ancillary accessories that require more than a benchtop to be effective, such as a bench deadman or a leg vise, bearing in mind the above conditions.

- "onboard" storage of tools, consumables and materials but only to the extent that such storage does not interfere with the more important functions above or result in a "maintenence" or "cleaning" problem (i dont want to be cleaning sawdust out of drawers and cupboards, would rather leave the base openthan do that).

- low maintenance (easy to keep clean, hard, damage resistant, durable surface allows efficient removal of glue deposits, stains, shellac and other finishes thereon deposited in the course of its use.

- nifty good looking bench base you can show off to visitors and proudly post piccies of on the forum (nice but it doesnt override functionality)

[BobL]

good thinking, BobL, and it illustrates the point i was making earlier that you build the work surface first, then build or rebuild the base.


You can also of course always enhance/expand your work surface later with additions like this.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/attachment.php?attachmentid=24538&d=1149591085