Domino, smaller cutters?

[Flowboy]

Hi everyone,

I've a question for brains of a higher timber than mine.

I am going to construct a box, which will have inlay as a square on all sides and the top. The domino, since it is so precise with cutting widths is ideally suited to cutting the troughs, but 5mm may be a little heavy handed for the size of the inlay. Is there any apparent reason such as amount of drive needed to push the cutter from side to side or stability of the height measurement at low cutter diameters such as 2,3 or 4mm which would make this unachievable?

The box will also have dominos mounted "lengthwise" in the mitres to give a sort of internal spline. This will give me the apparatus(i) to limit depth to that desired (I hope).

Hope this all makes sense. If it looks like a goer, I'll see if Carbitool can make them.

Regards,

Rob

[Lignum]

Rob i have also been thinking of it myself. A 2.5 or 3mm cutter i would like. If you do get carbitool to make one put me down for two of them. The only thing i can see negative is if it snapped and rooted Domi the waranty would no doubt be void.

[Flowboy]

Yeah Lignum, its ideal for this purpose. No need for stops, much faster rout and sooo accurate.
My main concern is that the smaller bits would snap also. I've tried using a 2mm straight bit on a router bench with a Triton #1, it snapped while I was passing the timber along the fence. Whole 'nother set of circumstances and a bit like hitting a tack with a sledgehammer. I can't see that, given the revs and method of use for the Domi, that it should be a problem. I agree, a 2.5 and 3mm and even a 4mm would be ideal. 4mm just seems to fit the dimensions most often used for the ratio of front to side to top panel. I'd like a 2mm as a way of giving a gradation of inlays, say from 4 then a gap then 3 or 2.5 then a gap and finally 2mm. I've got no problem generating fine dust from scaps of the inlay timber, so in the 2mm I would use a slurry of dust and a glue appropriate to the situation.

I'll let you know how I go with CT.

Regards,

Rob

[Flowboy]

Hi,

I put my report of the CT trip under dominos as splines thread. Sorry!!

Rob

[Flowboy]

Hi all,

There's been some discussion between Rocker and others in the router forum regarding long carbide spiral bits. During the conversation, the use of machine shop "mill end" bits was mentioned. These are essentailly spiral upcuts, in carbide or HSS, with 2,3 or 4 flutes and are designed for metal cutting so are very strong. I have been looking at these independantly for use with the domino . Most have a shank the same width as the cutter, but not all. It seems to me that using a 2 flute mill end with the cutter length and diameter required, with a threaded hole in the shank end to match the Domi could be what we are looking for. Also, if people, are prepared to have the bit protruding from the domino, longer cuts would be available, probably with two passes.

Regards,

Rob

[Powertoolman]

Rob and Lignum,
I have had your question sitting in the back of my mind since I first came here, and I may have an idea for you to try out, but I don’t know if it will work or not. The idea of a smaller cutter could work, but the cost of having one made is very high, right? So instead of having a whole new cutter made, would it be possible to modify an existing cutter for much less money?

My thought was to take an existing 5mm cutter to a sharpening service and see if they could reduce the diameter. I don’t know anything about what a sharpening service is capable of doing, but it would seem that this should be cheaper than having a new cutter made from scratch.

As long as you are plunging the bit very slowly, there is not a lot of side-to-side force on the mortising bit. Furthermore, only the part of the bit that enters the wood would need to be reduced. The rest of the cutter shaft could be left at full diameter for greater strength.

I know this is a risky idea because you could destroy an expensive bit in the process, but if it is something you need frequently, it may be worth the risk.

[Rocker]

Rather than vary the range of cutters, I would like to see Festool enlarge the range of dominoes, both in providing wider stock to fit the medium and wide settings, and in variety of woods, say cherry, walnut and white oak for the US, and jarrah and blackwood for Australia, so that dominoes could be used as through tenons, and in decorative joinery such as Lignum has suggested for joining drawer fronts to drawer sides. This should not be costly for Festool to implement.

Rocker

[Flowboy]

Hi PTM,
That is a very good suggestion and one I can follow up quite quickly. Since you get a 5mm cutter with the beast and another with the "buy this and you'll get some work done" kit I have one spare.
The advantage of using Mill End bits is that they are actually reasonably cheap and threading a hole in the shank shouldn't cost much. You're absolutely right about the cost/unit for a narrower bit built from scratch. Also, as you can get 4 flute mill ends, which don't clear too well at 10Ksec-1 RPM and up,they may at lower speeds. The addition of extra flutes would also distribute the force on the cutter while in use. I also think that HSS or high quality Carbon Steel may be better than Carbide in this situation. Carbide holds a better edge longer, but is more brittle than either of the steels.

Regards

Rob

[Powertoolman]

Rocker,
I couldn't agree more! I doubt that Festool would ever make Dominos out of exotic woods, but I would like to see a set of router bits so the end-user could make their own Dominos. Unfortuantely because the precision of the Domino is so high, this is not something that is very likely.:(

Rob,
That is exactly what I was thinking.:) When you get the full set of cutters, you end up with two 5 mm cutters, so one is a spare. I agree that a mill end cutter would be better, but I don't know what the cost would be for drilling and tapping the end of a high-strength steel bit would be.

By the way, I have the pitcures you asked for and will post them in the "Success!!" thread you started on this topic. WAIT. On second thought I will start a new thread because this is slightly different from the original intent of your previous posting.

[Rocker]

PTM,

I can't see why it would be at all difficult for the dominoes to be made out of other woods than European beech. After all, a cubic meter of wood would make quite a number of dominoes.

I have found that it is not difficult to make loose tenon stock using standard roundover bits, see for example http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=37789&page=2 , posts #16 - #19. But commercial cabinet makers would not want to spent the time doing this, and would clearly prefer to buy ready-made floating tenon stock.

Rocker

[Flowboy]

Hi Rocker,
Pleased that the work I did helped you with your species specific tenons.
The point of this thread was to see if smaller bits could be fitted to the domino so as to allow thiner mortices to be generated for things such as inlay. I have already done some inlays and you do not need stops to get an accurate meeting of the troughs, which then require so little squaring that its just a minor inconvenience. This is a totally different issue to making larger cutters, making the oscillation control more flexible or having a wider range of tenons available. The Beech tenons are compressed and expand with hydration, similar to bicuits. Beech seems to be ideal for this. I am not sure you will get the same result from either American or Australian hardwoods. I still maintain that the benefit of species specific tenons is that ensures the same properties as that being used as stock. It would take me maybe two hours to process somewhere around 5 plus metres of Domino stock (made in 300-600mm lengths so they can be cut to any desired size).

Rob

[Flowboy]

Hi all,
Today, (apart from the day the teddy bears have their picks nicked) was the day I ventured to Gills Tools in beautiful downtown Coburg, to see about sharpening and resizing Domino cutters. After Gill picked himself off the floor, I got the news that it would be hellishly expensive, probably at least twice the cost of a Carbitool SC 4mm bit.There's also the potential for fatigue during the process. So, though it was a great idea, lack of interest and cost have swallowed it whole.
This leaves the millend bits drilled and threaded. I'll try this..sometime.
In the interim, I have acquired a Dremel plunge router such as Herr Doktor Bazzoon has. Its just so damn cute!! Frankly, however, I don't have the energy for much of anything at present, Cant even remember how to install a DVD player into the entertainment beast.

Regards,

Rob

With steely eyes he glared at the Tool Sharpening bully and leapt at him crying "Have at you."

[Flowboy]

Thanks TeeJay,

My brain hurts!!
I think it'll have to come out.

Cheers

Rob