Dust Extraction - Cyclone

[Wayne Davy]

Hi all,

If you want to know all about dust extraction and why you should do something about it, go to this site.

http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/Index.html

On bill's site you can also find plans to make your own Cyclone Dust Collector (DC) using a 2hp (or better) bag type DC as a base. I am making one of these at the moment and will post my results of using it in a week or two.

Wayne

[Wayne Davy]

If anyone is interested, the Cyclone is nearly finished, just have to solder up the joints and attach the fan/motor. Pic below.

[kenmil]

I visited the site you mentioned and left more confused than when I went in. What is a Cyclone ? Why all this fuss about sawdust ?:confused:

[Wayne Davy]

Kenmil (Ken??),

What is a Cyclone? - quoted from Bill's site:

Dust Collector Cyclone
A cyclone is a simple tank with no moving parts. Dirty air comes in through an inlet and spins quickly around. This spinning throws the heavier particles outward to the cyclone walls. Airflow on the cyclone walls is slowed by friction. Particles get trapped in the slower moving air then gravity pulls them down. As the air continues to spin it slows and drops downward. The cone on the bottom of the cyclone forces that slowing air to keep the particles pressed tightly to the walls. Those particles continue to slide downward and eventually out into a dust chute. The dust chute is sealed tightly to the bottom of the cyclone with no air leaks to stir up the collected dust. At a certain place called a neutral point, the spinning clean air reverses direction and comes up through the center of the cyclone then exits through the cyclone outlet.
-----------------------

As for why you would want one:
1. In Australia all wood dust is now classified as carcinogenic (liable to cause cancer)
2. As Bills site mentions - wood dust can cause breathing problems
3. Bag type dust collectors clog up (the bags that is) and lose virtually all their suction. I have two and I am constanly empting/cleaning them
4. Cyclones don't clog (unless you don't empty the collector bin before it overfills).
5. Sawdust makes a mess and I am lazy when it comes to cleaning up

Below is a picture of a completed dust collector cyclone.
(from http://www.dusteliminator.com/shoptour.html)

[Wayne Davy]

P.S. Maybe my first pic confused you - the thing is upside down while I work on it.

[kenmil]

Wayne,

Thank you, now it makes a bit more sense to me, in terms of how it works/what it does. As for the danger of wood dust ? There isn't much in Australia that isn't considered carcinogenic, (we are a nation of hypochondriacs) so I am more than a little sceptical on that score. Sounds like a better way to keep things clean and tidy though, and the shortcomings of the old vacuum cleaner attachment on my table saw are pretty obvious.
Not sure I would have the space for it, though, as it looks rather large.
Thanks again for your information.

Ken;)

[ubeaut]

G'day Ken - As a part of this site there is a page called BADWOODS (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/badwood.htm) and it gives a little bit of an insight into some (and I mean SOME) of the problems that wood dust can cause.

This current list is just the tip of the iceberg there are many more timbers with many more problems ranging from a slight rash to death.

Fact of the matter is that most Aussies are not hypocondriacts. Many woodworkers suffer a wide variety of ailments later in life because of wood dust. Maybe if they had been aware of the problems earlier in the peice and used protection many would have been saved from the suffering. Once upon a time you were called a wimp or a sissy if you used a dust mask or ear muffs etc. Knowing what we know now you are a nothing short of a bloody idiot if you don't.

Hope this answers the "Why all this fuss about sawdust?" question.

Cheers - Neil.:)

[Wayne Davy]

Neal,

I totally agree with all your comments.

[Wayne Davy]

Ken,

The cyclone does look large but it does not really take up too much space. The one I am making is 450 x 450 and about 2200mm high (depending on the height of the collection bin). The filters on the side add about 200mm to the width. So in floor area it takes a similar amount to the twin bag units. Its the height of the unit that makes it look big.

[kenmil]

Neal,

Thank you for your reply. I have had a look at the list. I would have to say that I have never had skin irritations or anything else from sawdust, so I am still sceptical, but of course it is a given that breathing anything other than clean air is not ideal, so I guess I am not entirely a lost cause on this subject.

I suppose I am just questioning the degree to which some folk are prepared to go to avoid breathing sawdust particles, yet they walk around outside breathing polluted air in all of our cities. Obviously anyone who has a pre-existing respiratory condition needs to take these precautions, but for the rest of us I doubt it.

It's also interesting that all these timbers have been labelled carinogenic in Australia, but have they been so classified in the USA, Britain, Germany etc ? It has been my experience that this country is overly pedantic with these things, and hence the government departments who issue such warnings are a bit like the boy who cried 'wolf'. Ask yourself why we have many more supposedly asthmatic children than any other developed country, and why "cot death" is almost rampant in Australia, yet is relatively unknown in many other countries.

Only last night I heard a TV news report to the effect that too many people had taken notice of the sunscreen message, and now we had tens of thousands of people with a vitamin D deficiency. They said that we had now to reassess our exposure to the sun, as we were not getting enough !!!

Sorry, I just realised I am starting to rave on, and you were just trying to be helpful, so please don't be offended. This subject pressed one of my buttons, that's all.:D

[ubeaut]

Ken - No offence taken.

However, it's not what the dust does to you to day that is the worry it is the effect that it has down the track some 20 years or more.

Blackwood has been banned from use in schools because of a little problem called blackwood itch. A serious and prolonged asthma style attack. The Education department was loosing many thousands of hours work per year due to this one.

Many of the problems weren't so obvious in the past because much of the work was done by hand. However the advent of high speed machines and power tools at very affordable prices puts this problem up there with smoking, and we all know that smoking is really good for us. It doesn't cause cancer, heart problems, emphasima, stroke or any of that stuff, no that's just good old Aussie hypochondria.

Wayne - the cyclone looks great. I am always envious of someone who can build something in metal. Bloody useless at it myself.

Cheers - NEIL . :rolleyes:

[DPB]

Wayne, like Neil, I too am useless at metal work.

So, if you can't make a cyclone, can you purchase one? Alternatively, is someone out there prepared to make one for sale?

My experience is similar to the one expressed in the site to which you referred. I have a ceiling hung air filter, and a 1.5hp single bag extraction ducted system and my Triton dust extraction equipment.

Trouble is, my shop still has a fine layer of dust. Then there’s the problem of cleaning the filters. Doing so creates an almighty cloud of fine dust which I then breath in whilst cleaning.

So what would it cost me to purchase a completed cyclone???:confused:

[Wayne Davy]

Neil,

Thanks mate. This is the first time I have worked with sheet steel and it is turning out Ok (I think). Believe me I would much rather work with wood but I don't think a wooden cyclone would be very efficient
:D

[Wayne Davy]

Woodchuck,

I know that Timbecon has one in their cattledog but, from what I have read, it does not look like a good design and only uses a Bag filter which will just put the fine dust back in the air!!

You could take the Plans from Bills site to a sheet metal works (they are in an excel spreadsheet you can download from here http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/CycloneSpreadsheetMetric.xls) and get them to quote/build the metal parts. Then you could just make the plywood top & frame and mount the motor/fan. Add some PVC duct and away goes the dust ;)

[Eastie]

Don,
there are a few on the market – the ones I have seen are stocked by a wood work warehouse (?) down towards Braeside.

Wayne,
nice job – what sort of outlay was involved ?
Hope those ceiling mounts hold up to the forces :rolleyes:

Ken, mate…
A close relative of mine who was a long time backyard wood turner only a few years ago ended up with lung cancer. Never smoked, lived in the country, no family history of similar events, etc. After significant investigation it was put down to wood dust exposure. Through the miracle of modern surgery the affected lung was removed allowing him to live. Through my work I have met three other people in the recent past who have been unfortunate to have suffered similar fate. I doubt that I am the only member here that this applies to.

As stated above cancers associated with wood dust have been known for some time, however with the advent of power tools a trend showed that traditional health problems escalated with the advent of this new economy.

Australia, Austria, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, Hungary, Japan, Luxembourg, Mauritius, Netherlands, New Zealand, Niger, Norway, Romania, Slovac Republic, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the Netherlands and the USA support the research findings that wood dust is hazardous to health, with hardwood dust being clearly linked to certain forms of cancer. This is also supported by the International Labour Organisation, World Health Organisation and the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), part of the World Health Organisation, who originally found that wood dust is a carcinogen (cancer causing). Clearly the weight of the developed nations supports these findings.

Likewise further research directed at those working with various timbers found that there were direct links across many people in many countries showing certain woods have detrimental health effects ranging from skin disorders to industrial asthma.

Of course there are many other health hazards out there from industrial and social pollution to improper use of chemicals. Developed countries have put in place controls and defences to reduce impact of these on our standards of living and health, but we cannot control what anyone wishes to do in their own back yard.

If you chose not to protect yourself that is your decision, but I would hope that most people base their decisions on the weight of research and educated findings as opposed to hearsay and conspiracy theory.

[Wayne Davy]

Eastie,

I had better clarify something, the second pic I posted is not mine but a guys in the states. Mine WILL end up looking like that (if SHMBO allows me some workshop time this weekend :rolleyes: ).

As for cost, I have not really added it all up (and probably don't want to) but here goes.

$30 for sheet metal .6mm (24 gauge I think)
$50 for Pop riveter and rivets
$40 for plumbers style propane torch (on special)
$25 for solder and flux
$50 for Plywood/MDF
$0 for plans from http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodwork...yclonePlan.html
$?? for lots of time ;)
$195 sub-total

The motor/fan/filters are where the money goes. I am going to use a Carbatec Economy 2hp Bag type collector for these as I already have one.

I do want to upgrade to Pleated Filter (Torit style) Cartridge and possibly a bigger motor and better fan in the distant future but this will get expensive considering this is a hobby.

After you build it, you will need ducting, PVC 150mm sewer pipe works great.

P.S. I forgot to add in the cost of Roses for bribes ;)

[Wayne Davy]

Doorstop,

I did it all myself and I've got the cuts to prove it. :D

Placed a piece of 100mm PCV held between two workmates and then hand rolled/formed the curves. The only folding is the inlet which is rectangular. Did this with the old hammer and a block of square edged hardwood.

[Wayne Davy]

For those who are still unsure as to how a cyclone works, the following info is poached from a US site.

Cyclone - How it Works
For those of you who are new to cyclone dust separators, here is a basic description of how it works.

The blower consists of a motor, fan, inlet and outlet. As blower turns, suction is created at the inlet (4). Air (and dust) enter at (1) and are forced to circulated around the cylinder. As the air approaches the funnel shaped portion of the cyclone (2), dust is spun against the sides and eventually settles down in to the collector (3). The remaining air (less the dust) is blown out the outlet and into a bag or filter.

[Eastie]

:D That one in the photo must work really well - not a speck of dust or even grime on anything in that corner of the workshop :rolleyes:

[Wayne Davy]

Eastie,

Yes, they do work very well IF they are designed and built correctly. I do suspect though that some manual cleaning has taken place before that photo was taken.

[Pulpo]

I must have spent a good 4 hours almost straight going over Bill's site.
http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/Index.html

Finally a thorough analysis on a dust extraction system for the home workshop.

Anyone considering any dust extraction should look over this site, for its a brilliant piece of work.

Wayne thanks for mentioning the site.

Wayne do you have a few pics of the construction process or just even pics of the different parts.

I would probably prefer to buy one off the shelf, if the price was right. However I think Bill's site would indicate, that this is at least a year away; as the manufacturers begin to improve the design of the current models.

Good luck with yours.

Once you've had it operational for while, I'd be interested in some fed back.

Good luck finishing it.

Did you hold the cone structure together with rivets?
Do these need to be removed once soldered together?

Cheers
Pulpo
http://

[Wayne Davy]

Pulpo,

I will be posting some more pics soon. As for construction, yes I have pop riveted it together to hold it for soldering. I plan on removing most of the pop rivets and soldering up the holes as I go. The pop rivets are put in "back the front" i.e. the flat head is on the inside of the cyclone. This is to make it smoother on the inside for the ones that I will leave in place.

I also plan on setting up my web site with pics, construction notes and performance when I get time (ha, ha). With two little kids (1 and 4), I have not been getting much workshop time on the weekends so it has not been progressing as quickly as I would like. Hopefully, I will get the soldering finished this weekend and then fit the motor/fan and give it a burl.

Stay tuned...

[DaveInOz]

Originally posted by Wayne Davy
... Hopefully, I will get the soldering finished this weekend and then fit the motor/fan and give it a burl.


WOW :eek:
I'd be happy with one that picked up dust and small woodchips.

:D

[Wayne Davy]

Well maybe not an actual "Burl" (unless it is only 5-6 inches across) ;) Also, that would be a horrible waste in any case and I would probably be drawn/quartered by some of the others on this site if I did.

[RETIRED]

A 'whirl" perhaps.:)

[Wayne Davy]

Ok, I have discovered that I cannot solder sheet metal (F#@%, B@$%$#). What a mess solder everywhere - except on the joints!

So, time for plan B. I am just going to leave the pop rivets in and seal it up with caulk, liquid nails or something and then put alum. flashing tape over the joints (on the outside).

Anyway, below is a new pic in which you can see the outlet pipe (top, right) with the air ramp attached (makes the air spiral really nicely - I hope).

P.S. I hate metal work - give me a nice piece of wood anyday :mad:

[Pulpo]

I was thinking what a pain that will be to remove and solder the holes of those rivets.

Smart thinking to place the smother side on the inside of the cyclone.

I cannot see why caulking will not work

My only advice on soldering
Have the torch on a low setting.
Heat the metal surface and let the metal melt the solder.
Have plenty of flux on the suface.

Are you using the right solder.

All I can say is practice with some scrap.

I have to admit I'm not talented at soldering, I would prefer mig welding, not possible metal too thin I think.

Also the air ramp looks small.

Is it meant to go from the start of the cone to the start of the blower impeller?

Finally for the inlet source, how far do you shove the rectangular inlet duct into the cyclone structure, if at all?

Good Luck

Pulpo

[Wayne Davy]

Pulpo,

I have give up on solder - caulk/glue will do. From what I have read, solder is only to give a really smooth surface but rivet heads don't make a great deal of difference to the air flow. The other reason is to get a nice outside look which does not make one zot of diff to performance. At bit of paint will probably make it look Ok but I don't really care too much. I just want it to suck the all the s#$% out of my shop :D

My main problem with the solder, and Bill mentions this, is that I cannot hold the joints really tight together and the solder just runs through. So, caulk/glue it is. It may not look beautiful but it will work.

As for the ramp, it is the correct size and I don't believe it has to go all the way up. I had a great deal of difficulty getting in the position it is with out it twisting/warping. The Inlet (which is rectangular) goes half way in i.e. to the mid point of the top drum of the cyclone. This means that the bottom of the inlet will match to my air ramp which I believe is Ok.

I am hoping to have it close to finished by Sunday (have to buy more roses for SHMBO).

[Darryn]

Hi Wayne

One small question which may not have been asked yet are you using galvanised sheetmetal or zincalume?

If its zincalume then that is the answer to your problem,

[Wayne Davy]

Darryn,

Its definitely galvanised - it's just my lack of metal solder skills. Glue/caulk will do just fine.

[Darryn]

Ok about the galvanised

Were you trying to solder with a torch or with a an iron?
I read the other guys website last night and it seemed to me he was just using a lpg torch with a direct flame as he didn't have a big enough soldering iron. That seems like a really hard way of doing it

I use one of those primus lpg torches with a soldering iron attachment (the one that fits on the skinny blue bottle)

With bakers fluid and plumbers solder I have no problems soldering galvanised sheetmetal. Also when using the soldering iron you are actually applying some pressure to keep the joint together

Darryn

[Wayne Davy]

Darryn,

Yes, I was using a lpg torch with direct flame as the torch I have does not have a soldering iron attachment available. As for holding the joint together, it is held together with pop rivets but there is a small gap. Short of making/buying some kind of long (i.e. 500mm) clamp, I cannot fully close the gap hence the solder ran through and the joints looked like s*&$. In any case, I have started liquid nailing it just to seal the joints with the pop rivets in place as well. It will work fine.

Thanks for the help.

[Darryn]

Even if you are good at soldering that is pretty hard to do.

I would look through a few seocndhand shops and try and find an old plumbers soldering iron, the one that looks like a big blob of copper with a handle on it. Just heat it up with your torch and you will get results I am sure'

Darryn

[Wayne Davy]

Just an update for those that are interested.

I have nearly finished the cyclone just have to attach the motor/blower and hang the lot from the wall/joists. I hope to do this over the next couple of nights and will be post a pic or two shortly.

Stay tuned....

[Pulpo]

Wayne

A breath of fresh air, well almost.

Are you going to check the amp draw on the motor?

Also are you going to check the total air flow?

If you are how and what instruments will you use?

Something I have little idea about.

Thanks

[Wayne Davy]

Pulpo,

Yes, I am going to check the Amp draw and I have a digital multimeter and a Clamp style Amp meter attachment. As for checking the airflow, I don't have or can get a pitot tube as Bill's site mentions. Really, I am not too worried about measuring the CFM as I'll get what I get and I would not be able to do anything about it in any case. However, if you have an idea of how to measure CFM cheaply (read 'for nearly nothing'), I am interested.

Thanks for your interest. Hopefully, there will be a cyclone warning in Brisbane in the next night or two.

[Pulpo]

Wayne
Moving off the track slightly and before the cyclone warning.

I too have digital multimeter but do not have the "amp style camp meter attachment".

I have brymen MM (I think) rarely use anything more than 10% of its features and only on the car; ( it came with almost no instructions).

Is this clamp attachment sold separately?
Could I attach this to my multimeter?

Is there another way with the current two leads/probes?

Do you know a way of testing an electric motor's power?
Horsepower; AMP rating; Duty cycle?

As for measuring air flow I have No idea.

The only reason why I mention this, is I intend to make the blower as well, and may have some long runs, so it would be good information almost necessary for me.

Seeking info from an engineer I know (but I think his civil not mechanical).

Thanks

[Wayne Davy]

Pulpo,

I got the Clamp Amp meter attachment from Jaycar a while back for $35. It suits digital multimeters only.
(http://www1.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=QM1565&CATID=&keywords=clamp+meter&SPECIAL=&form=KEYWORD&ProdCodeOnly=&Keyword1=xxxxxxxxxx&Keyword2=xxxxxxxxxx&pageNumber=&priceMin=&priceMax=&SUBCATID=)

As for other ways, I believe it involves placing the meter in circuit so I decided that a Clamp was a better, safer method. Just in case you don't know, you have to clamp an individual lead (i.e. the Positive) not just the power cable (i.e. all three cables) so this means that you have to open up the switch box on the motor.

[Wayne Davy]

Well, as I mentioned before, I have finished the metal section and am now mounting the motor. (Well I would be if I was not chatting on the BBS ;) )

Anyway, below is a couple of pic's

[Wayne Davy]

An here is a pic of the motor, Ply support boards and aluminium angle brace about to be assembled (maybe tomorrow night).

Note, I have decided not to take off the stock Air Inlet plate from the Blower and increase the inlet hole as Bill Pentz recommends. This is because the unit is new and I don't want to void the warranty. However, in about a years time when it is out of warranty that sucker is gunna get bigger!

[Sir Stinkalot]

Please do not think of me as an Ebay junkie but I thought that this may be of some use to those who are thinking of making one of these dust extraction units. It seems cheap enough for a trial and error.

Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2521567637&category=26261)

[Wayne Davy]

Cool Stinkie. I did look on ebay for motor/fans in the past and did not find anything. A few points if anyone is thinking about this unit:

I looked at 3hp motors and found out they draw over 9 amps which leaves a 10amp household circuit a bit wanting. Nice to have a big dust collector but not fun if you can ONLY turn it on and not the saw as well. However, if someone has 3 phase or 15 amp circuits or two 10 amp circuits in their shed/shop, go for it.
I guess it would work Ok with the cyclone, you would just have to run a 150mm (minimum) pipe from the top of the cyclone down to the inlet side blower on the floor as I would guess that unit is very, very heavy. I would probably even go to 200mm steel piping for this.
You would probably want to make the Cyclone out of thicker steel than mine. With that size unit, if you closed all the blast gates, the cyclone and the ducting would probably collapse from the suction!!
And don't let your Cat/Dog/Small Children near the inlets (unless you DO want to get rid of them) ;)

[bill pentz]

G'Day Wayne,

Well done on the cyclone!

For the blower I recommend a backward curved material movement impeller such as the Jet DC-1900 that is about 355 mm (14") powered by a good heavy duty 3 to 5 hp motor.

Don't forget the filters. The standard here are the Donaldson made Torit cartridge units that filter 0.2 or 0.5 microns.

*smile*

bill

PS, Soldering and construction hints here:

http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/buildcyclone.html

[kenmil]

Wayne,
Hang on, now I am confused again. That thing is a blower not a sucker and even I understand the difference there. How would you use it ?

[Wayne Davy]

Ken,

The unit is a Blower but it does Suck on the Inlet (on the side) so that is where you could hook up the hose and the Filters would hook up to the Blower outlet.

HOWEVER, I emailed Bill (the US Cyclone Guru) the link and he sent me back this:

Wayne,

Good job on your cyclone!

The EBAY blower is too big! Not a good fit. Check out my budget blower page as did an update last week with a much better solution.

Also, have a new page http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/buildcyclone.html that covers the soldering and much of the basic construction to make much easier. I know, better late than never.

*smile*

bill


So, forget that ebay blower in any case.

P.S. By the above post, it looks like Bill has joined our little board.

[kenmil]

Wayne,

Perhaps you will move on to something like this next ?

[Wayne Davy]

Ken,

That would be WAY, WAY in the future ;) I see someone has been to the Greg Mach. site. Contemplating Jet stuff are we.
:D

[kenmil]

Actually I was looking at their Kreg pocket-hole jigs, and when I saw the cyclone photo I just could not resist;)

[Wayne Davy]

Ken,

Cheeky bugger :D

You know that the little one works the same as those big jobs. The boxes on the side are full of Cartidge Filters like the ones Bill's site recommends. A little bit big for my humble shop me thinks.

What do you think of the Kreg's? I have the cheap Carbatec one and find it quite good for the money. Not quite as solid but gets the job done all the same.

[kenmil]

Wayne,

I am using the carbatec jig at the moment, building the carcass for a cupboard/hutch for my workshop. It's ok, but I am not sure how long it will last, and the screws that came with it are in the bin after the third one snapped ! It will get this job done, but I fancy something a bit better if not too expensive. The Kreg jigs look good, but I would really like to touch and smell one before buying.

[Wayne Davy]

Ken,

The Brisbane Bunnings carry the Kregs now and I think the prices are the same. I also know that Gregories supply them to Bunnings as I saw a Greg Mach delivery sticker on a box of them.

[kenmil]

Wayne,
Brisbane is a long way from me (thank goodness), and I think I can buy direct from Kregs in the USA and pay the shipping and still come out ahead. I will check it out again.:D

[Wayne Davy]

Probably right. Buying stuff from the US is nearly always cheaper SO LONG as it is light/small to keep down the freight/postage. My Wife and I order some Glass Cupboard Knobs and 4 Wood Appliques (Wood Fretwork type things you stick on bedheads etc.) and, even after paying 28 USD for freight we got nearly four times the amount of stuff then we could buy them for in Oz. The really dumb thing is that all the items had "Made in Taiwan" on them so they have been around the world (TW To USA To Oz) for 1/4 the price they want locally!!!

[John Saxton]

Wayne, just digressing a bit here.In one of your earlier posts on the cyclone you are building you had a sub- total of $195.00, has that been revised yet?

Reason I asked, was I saw one in Timbecon today with 2hp motor, and well above your price for a home made one though on its own stand though it would be required I would imagine to be situated outside any ordinary backyard shed/shop .

Just weighting up some possibilities.

Cheers:)

[Sarge]

Ken, I have just purchased the Kreg pocket hole jig from Gregory Machinery after 3 weeks of comparing prices and exchanging emails. Most sites will not mail this particular item to Australia, they didn't explain why, so I was resigned to the fact that I was going to purchase it directly from Kreg for US$139. So I went through all the online ordering and right on the last screen they added in the freight, US$111. After I got up off the floor I decided that maybe I might be better off ordering it from Queensland.

I sent and email to Gregory Machinery asking a couple of questions about the Kreg pocket hole jig. Yesterday Robert Gregory rang me on the phone, answered all my questions and explained that his web page has not been updated for a while and that the Kreg K2000PRO advertised is in fact the latest kit available with the two-hole Rocket Jig and the one-hole Mini Kreg Jig, the original kit only had the Mini jig. He also told me that the price has been dropped from the advertised price of AU$330 down to AU$315. I ordered mine on the phone, delivered COD
He did mention that it is available in Melbourne from the Woodworking Warehouse in Braeside.


You welcome to come around and smell it when it arrives :)

I hope this help you decision

[Wayne Davy]

John,

That was $195 (probably +$50 now) AND you need a 2hp at least Bag Dust Collector ($369 at Carbatec/Timbecon/etc) so the total would be around $620 to build one. The thing is, if you build one, it should be much better than that Timbecon one. On Bill's site he has short reviews on available Cyclones in the US and one that looks exactly the same as the Timbecon one does not rate very well. Apparently the design (i.e. Cone length and Top Drum size) is not correct so performance will be degrade significatly. Check out his reviews at:
http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/CycloneReviews.html

The one is about half way down, marketed by Grizzly.

Hope this helps with the decision.

[Wayne Davy]

John,

Another couple of points. The timbecon one does NOT include the collection drums. Also, you could look into getting a metal shop to make the cyclone for you.

[John Saxton]

Thanks Wayne,I'll probably build one I think down the track...have bookmarked Bills page,but for now have enough to keep me busy, besides trying to pry the Vias off of 'Er Indoors who is away in Perth on a 3 week post natal course (with Visa)isn't going to be pretty when the time comes!

Cheers:)

[Al Burdon]

i have built a cyclone from plans i downloaded from the net.
AU$ 15 approx.

Used Taiwan made 2HP bag fan AU$300 approx.

Ducting and other stuff AU$300

Works great.

[kenmil]

Sarge,

Thank you for the info & invitation. I will visit Braeside and have a look. (I think I need a passport to travel to Epping :D )
It's interesting isn't it, how much freight some of the USA companies want to add. Usually it's because they insist on using UPS, DHL etc rather than the US Postal Service. I buy a lot of stuff from the USA, and I have found the Postal Service to be excellent and very reasonable.

I recently was interested in buying a voltage converter, which costs about $450 in Australia, and which I can buy for US$130 in the USA. Only problem was the insistence on using DHL and the freight cost was US$117 ! There goes all the advantage in the original price. I asked them to use USPS Parcel Post, which would cost US$35, but they said, "sorry, but we must use DHL". I suspect they sign exclusivity contracts with them.

[bill pentz]

----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne_Davy
Subject: Push through cyclone question

Hi again Bill,

Thanks for your comments on my cyclone pics (posted on www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au).

I have a question regarding my cyclone, as I explained I am using a 2hp motor with a 12" reverse curve impeller (the blower is off a twin bag D/C) and I was just about to mount the Blower and Cyclone when I realised that my initial height calcs were out and I would only be able to have a bin 400mm (around 16") high! (oops). So, after head butting the wall a few times, I am thinking about changing over to a push through cyclone. As the impeller/blower is from a bag type where the material hits it all the time, I should not have any worries and the 2hp should actually work better. Am I correct or is there something else I am missing? Also, I believe you have made one push through, do you have a picture (cannot find one on your site)?

Thanks in advance,

Wayne Davy
~~~~~

Wayne,

In theory there is no difference in efficiency between a push through and a pull through cyclone design. Pull through cyclones mount the blower on top of the cyclone and pull the air through. That saves the impeller from getting bonked with blocks of wood and the miscellaneous nut, bolt, etc. Push through simply replace the bag tree on a dust collector with a cyclone.

In practice, most hobbyists try to make do with a 2 hp or smaller blower that is severely air starved. This graph shows what our hobbyist machines require in terms of CFM to catch the very fine, most unhealthy dust. The older tables showed around 500 CFM to just pick up the same dust and chips that you can get with a broom. The reason the requirements are so high is the difference between sucking and blowing.

If you take two straws and a blown up balloon and have a little contest with a six year old you can prove the need for the higher CFM quickly. The rules are simple. They get to blow and you have to suck without either touching the balloon. What happens is the least directed air stream, say from motors, cutters, blades, belts, etc. pushes that balloon (fine dust) all over in spite of your having at least double the lung capacity of the child. American Air Filter is one of the most respected names in air and filter engineering. They went to a lot of work to come up with these table values to ensure their air engineer clients built systems that could ensure meeting our somewhat lax air quality standards. As you can see most of our larger machines need right around 800 CFM

http://cnets.net/%7Eeclectic/woodworking/cyclone/AAFHobbyistRequirements.gif

Regardless, the result in a pull through cyclone is bad performance because the cyclone adds even more resistance on the inlet side. In a push through, it works far better. So, the answer to your question is the push through will actually work better for you with that 2 hp setup, except of course the things hitting the impeller. Make sure you use a metal can with a push through. The potential of a spark from a piece of metal hitting the impeller and getting put into your collection barrel is far higher with a push through.

I know about your power problems, but still am concerned about the use of 2 hp motors. The below graph shows what is needed in terms of ample horsepower, cubic feet per minute, and static pressure to power my efficient cyclone design for various sized shops using standard material movement impellers. Shop size is roughly a one car garage or less for small, two car for medium, and three car for large. The size mostly has to do with the added ducting resistance requiring more blower. Less efficient cyclones shift the graph about two inches of static pressure to the right.

http://cnets.net/%7Eeclectic/woodworking/cyclone/BlowerComparisonGraph.gif

bill

[Wayne Davy]

Bill,

Thanks for the reply and post. Do you have a picture of your push-through? Just want to get ideas on mounting the blower and cyclone.

Also, is there any reason to use a round collection bin (metal as suggested)? I was thinking of making a box out of gal as it would fit in my shop area better. What would be the min. height for the bin?

Thanks,

Wayne

[bill pentz]

Wayne,

No pictures of my push-through setup. I only put it together long enough to test. What I did was put some extra long rods on my Jet DC-1100 and used a cyclone in place of the bag tree. I used a 5" flex from the blower outlet to the top of the cyclone. The cyclone then comes back out to the filters. Was really tight, but all did fit on the original DC base.

A while back I modified one of my plans for a friend taking advantage of the air ramp to make a side access for the cyclone outlet. That let him have a pull through and not be so tall. The key of course is go as big as you can to that cyclone outlet tube to minimize resistance.

You can make the dust catch bin any size or shape you want. I found with an 8 foot ceiling, I was pretty limited in how tall I could go. I found a heavy steel 30 gallon drum surplus and have been using it ever since.

bill

[Wayne Davy]

I have FINALLY mounted the Cyclone. Had lots of problems due to my height restriction. Anyway, I'll post some pic's tonight.

Oh, Man does it Suck and I mean that in the picking up wood chips/dust way :D

[kenmil]

Wayne,
If you are vertically challenged, why don't you use a ladder ???:D :D

By the way, I went to look at some 6" PVC last night. Boy, does that look too big!! Nevertheless, I will take your advice on that. It also seems to me that the more pvc you use and the less wire coil hose, the better, because of the friction which must exist in the wire coil hose. They are not exactly smooth inside.

[Wayne Davy]

Well, it took some mucking around but here it is mounted to the wall and joists. I wanted to put it on the other side of the shop but the height was just a bit less and mounting it would have been painful due to some water pipes etc. Anyway, just got to connect the collection drum properly and run the pipes which will be next week (kids are visiting grandma's for a week - ya! - now if I could just get SHMBO out of the house as well....).


Ken,

I would have used a ladder but it would not fit ;) The whole thing, top to bottom, is 2180mm which includes a 80mm gap above the motor for cooling. 6" pvc is damn big when you look at it and it is going to look weird in my little shop but it will work way better than 4" and that is the whole idea.

Have you bought any sheet metal yet?

[Wayne Davy]

Close up of the Blower unit and mounting boards.

[kenmil]

Wayne,

No I haven't. I printed off the cutout diagrams from Bil's site, enlarged them and studied them until I understood them. I then concluded that it was all too hard and I might just buy one. I keep changing my mind on this. Why is the outlet at the top rectangular, by the way ? Wouldn't it be better to be round ?

Pleased to see you finished yours and it is sucking to your satisfaction.;)

[Wayne Davy]

Ken,

I did the same. The way this thing started was that I was going to build the one published in the american "Wood Magazine" but I thought I would do a bit of research on the net first. That was when I found Bill's site. After reading all his stuff and finding out the Wood one was , I decided to build to his design. Printed out the plans, looked at them, changed the numbers, printed, looked, etc, etc. This went on for weeks until I decided to just pull the old finger out and build the sucker (pun intended). Anyway, it has taken me a bit but it looks like it was worth it. I guess I should wait until I get the piping on before getting too excited but I can just feel how much air is flowing in that big inlet and it wont slowly loose suction like the bag units due to dust caking.

As for the rectangular inlet, this is to smooth the flow of air into the cyclone to reduce resistance. Round ones do work but rectangular works better (apparently) - check Bill's FAQ for details.
Another thing about the rectangular inlet, its actually easier to cut a hole for it rather than an eliptical one for a round pipe.

One more thing, this thing is a bit noisy according to SHMBO. I will have to put some rubber mounts or something between the blower and the mounts as the sound is reverberation between the blower and the joist - I think.

[DPB]

Hey, Wayne!

Have you visited this site? http://www.dustboy.com Product looks interesting. Is there anything similar to this available in Australia?:confused:

[Wayne Davy]

DPB,

I had a look and Jet market a similar one but only with a 1hp motor. These are not a Cyclones even though they say it uses cyclone action. A cyclone separates the chips and most (98-99%) of the dust down the cone and into the bin. With that unit, the fine stuff, which does the physical harm and also clogs the filter bag WILL NOT get separated in the short, no cone, distance of a drum. So, you are back to cleaning out the filter bag very regularly (which is what started me on this adventure) and losing suction as it slowly clogs while using it.

However, the do look interesting and I saw the Jet one the other day at Gregory Machinery's new store in Bris. They now have a pleated filter on the unit which is good but I still believe it would clog way more frequently than a true Cyclone which will only clog if you let the drum fill right up.

Wayne

[kenmil]

Wayne,

Speaking of cyclones............I am hanging out for your photographs!

[Wayne Davy]

Ok Ken,

I was just cropping and resizing them to fit on the forum. I will post one pic at a time and explain it as I go. Unfortunately I cannot get a good overall shot of my shop.

So, first up, the thing that started it:

Exhibit 1: The Cyclone

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 2: Cyclone and part of the main duct. You can see the Mitre Saw branch to the right and the main duct going to the left. This connects to the Bandsaw, Router, Table Saw, Belt Sander, Drill Press and (nearly) my home built Wall Saw.

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 3: Floor Sweep at start of main. This is made of some 90mm pipe I had lying around and was an after thought this afternoon. Works great, just sweep in it direction and away it goes. :D

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 4: Main Duct with the branchs showing. First branch goes to the Table Saw and Belt Sander. Second branch goes to the Bandsaw and Router Table and the furthest branch services the Drill Press and the Wall Saw. There is a fourth branch which is at the start of the duct and goes to the Mitre Saw.

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 5: Duct and 6 Inch Blast Gate for Table Saw and Belt Sander. I did not have time to make another Gate nor did I have another 6" Wye so the one Gate does both. This will do for the time being as the Belt Sander only has a 2.5" inlet so it does not drop the flow to the Table Saw. I will use the Belt Sander collection pipe for the Chisel Mortiser when I use it which sadly is not often. Just have to disconnect it which is easy as it is on the side.

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 6: Router Table (right) and Bandsaw duct and 4" plastic blast gates. Sorry about the pic but the branch is behind the machines and is very hard to get a good pic off.

One day I will get the 6" all the way to the tools but 6" flex cost a bit ($33 meter) so I will have to save my pennies.

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 7: Router Table intake. This draws the chips from the fence and also through the bit opening. The small pipe goes to the Triton routers dust hood which also helps. I did some routing this afternoon and not one single chip left the table - fan-flucking-tastic - woo woo.

You can also see my router bit draw. The trays are plastic breadboards which are cheap and work great - No rusty shanks and the bits go in and out nice and easy.

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 8: Forgot the Mitre Saw which is actually the first cab of the duct. The hood is not working real well unfortunately. The inlet needs to be behind the saw or further down on the side as it is not level with the base due to space/fitting problems. I will rework it soon (very soon).

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 9: Drill Press inlet and 6" Blast Gate. Now this works really goodly :D Drilled out 6 25mm holes with a forstner bit which usually causes a pile of shaving in seconds. With the Cyclone on and only that duct open - not one single shaving could I find! :D :D :D

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 10: My home made Wall Saw. Unfortunately I ran out of 45 degree elbows as well as flex pipe so it is not connected yet. You can see its duct connection to the left which is just blanked off at the moment. I have a 6" blast gate glueing up as I type.

I did cut some 18mm Ply on it this afternoon and I hooked up some flex drain pipe which is not good as it is not smooth on the inside and is under 100mm but it sucked up most of the saw dust anyway. Cannot wait to get it hooked up properly.

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 11: How to make a 6" blast Gate
This pic shows the 6" blast gate components as well as a 4" plastic one for comparison. To make one:

Get some 18mm ply (or there abouts) and cut two pieces about 210mm x 260mm. Cut a 150mm hole in the center of each and glue/screw a short length of 6 inch PVC into it. From 6mm ply, cut two side gate supports 20mm x 260mm and the actually gate (170mm x about 300mm). Drill a finger hole in the gate - assemble and install. :cool:

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 12: Finished 6" blast Gate
One 6" blast gate completed and that 4" plastic one for comparison

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 13: Installed 6" blast Gate
This is the one that connects to the Mitre Saw. The gates work just fine and will not clog up like the plastic ones as the bottom of the gate is open. This does mean a very, very small air leak but it does not affect anything worth a bugger.

[Wayne Davy]

Exhibit 14: Well no actually pic - I just did not want to finish on 13 ;)

Summary: The Cyclone and Ducting work as well and even better than I thought it would. I have a few problems to sort out (i.e. Mitre Saw) but in the main it works fine. Over time I will make the connections all 6" to the big machines and it will get even better (not that it is not good now).

One of the nice things is not dragging around the old 1hp units and pluging in the pipe. I just open the gate and make sawdust - well I think I do but I don't see any. :D

I have only cut up a few things to test it and, after it has been in use for a while, I will post a follow up.

Hope this info is helpful and interesting and I have not bored anyone with my obsession.

Cheers,

[kenmil]

Outstanding work Wayne. I suspect you have kept a duct tape factory in business for another 6 months. :D I was very interested in your blast gates - you have inspired me to make my own tomorrow!
I would like more info on that wall saw too. That looks like another nifty piece of work.

[Wayne Davy]

Ken,

The wall saw is one of my favorites. I made it after seeing one at Bunnings. Well, first I went to Gregory Machinery site and got a price THEN, after picking myself up of the floor, I decided to make one. You can buy plans of the Web but after looking at them I thought it would not be that hard. So, Reader Digest condensed version:

Get some aluminium thick walled pipe for the rails and some alum. plate and square pipe for the Saw Holder/Traveller. The saw table (???) is just melamine sheet with an A frame support. The saw is my old Ryobi 7 1/4" which should get some new bearings and brushes real soon. :( Anyway, a couple of things are also needed, the Saw needs a counter-balance which hangs down the back of the unit. I found an old sash window weight (the old cast iron ones) as the salvage yard. I actually got two but found that one was just right. The Saw is perfectly balanced and will sit at any position.

For the Saw Traveller, I just used some alum plate with square alum cleats top and bottom. The Traveller is connected to the rails via four pieces of plastic obtained from - dont laugh frown etc - two very, very thick old Breadboards. I forget the name of the plastic but it is very strong when it is thick and this is the cheapest way to get it. Anyway, these pieces have holes cut in them exactly the same size as the Rails. As the plastic is slippery but not flexible, the saw moves up and down very well and accurately. Just for safety, I have four U-Bolts around the rails as well. I put these on as insurance but the saw has been in use for over two years now and I check it regularly and the plastic has not worn at all.

The top support that holds the Rails is designed to be moved left or right and then locked in by two big screws. This is to align the saw. To align it initially, I used a new sheet of melamine that I check with a framing square and then placed on the saw. I ran the Saw Traveller down with the Blade retracted so that it did not cut into the Saw Table but was just above it and I could see it travel along the edge of the melamine sheet. A little adjustment at the top and then lock it down when the saw travelled along the test sheets edge perfectly. Once that is done, its time to cut the saw slot in the table. Move the saw to the top, turn it on and slowly lower it into the Table. When it is fully lowered lock it in and pull the saw all the way down the rails. Result, one zero clearance slot :D :cool:

Last couple of things, my saw is mounted on casters so I can move it around nice and easily however, when I do, I recheck the alignment. This is actually recommended for the commecial units as well. The other thing is that behind the saw table (i.e. in the A Frame) I store my Sheet goods. This saves lots of space, keeps them of the ground and upright which are all really good things.

Any questions?

[kenmil]

Wayne,

Excellent. I spotted the bread boards. As a matter of fact I am considering making a couple of table saw inserts (zero clearance & dado) out of them.
One last question before I hit the sack, what have you done about static electricity on your ducting ?

[Wayne Davy]

Saw Traveller up close.

[Wayne Davy]

Wall Saw bottom

[Wayne Davy]

Wall Saw Top

[Wayne Davy]

Wall Saw Sheet Storage.

[Wayne Davy]

Ken,

Regarding Static Elec. - Nothing. I have read and read and read about it and from all that I decided to do nothing. The only thing that may happen is I might get a zap from the PVC. What WONT happen is the dust will explode or catch fire due to static. The dangers of dust catching fire are in the bin due to spontaneous combustion and that is generally only if some moisture is present (ie. turning wet wood) or a piece of metal (which strikes the impeller causing a spark) or a cig butt getting sucked up. So, empty the bins/bags regularly. This goes for your Bag unit as well. Actually, it goes more so as a metal strike is more likely with Bag units as the Dust/crap goes through the impeller first. Note that it is not very likely to happen but can.

Anyway, I'm of to bed as well. Thanks for the complements - I'll have to squeeze my big head into bed now.

Cheers,

[Sarge]

Wayne,

Thanks for the tour of your workshop and new cyclone, I now know exactly what I want for my shop :)

I will be heading down to the $2 shop today to grad a couple of the breadboards, very smart idea, I'll make the drill bit holder out of the same thing.

Thanks

[Wayne Davy]

Sarge,

No worries - thanks for the interest. Those breadboards come in handy for lots of things. Draw Slides are another good one.

My shop is small as it is under the house and lacks headroom for one thing. If I could just convince SHMBO that the laundry tubs and Washing machine could live outside, I would have a lot more room ;) Dont think that is gunna happen anytime soon.

One day I'll build a proper shed down the back yard - Come on Lotto :D

[DaveInOz]

In the mean time feel free to come to Mexico and practice on mine :)
It look smaller than under your house but I'm willing for you to fit it out for me, generous aren't I :D

[Wayne Davy]

Yes, very generous :rolleyes: LOL

So, what have you got for a shop?

[DaveInOz]

A car and a half carport that I have (had) boxed in and wired.
I fitted it with no idea what I would want or need and was just having fun building benches and shelves :).
Now I look at it and think it is a perfect example of what an apprentice amature hack would build .:rolleyes:
But I'm not too good with the tools yet and I'm still learning at a great rate. The layout and tools aren't restricting me so it seems silly to start up grading until they are.
The main problem is dust.
I have a triton bucket (boo! hiss!) and we know how useful those are :rolleyes: . Having rollerdoors at both ends of the shed helps but I still sneeze black snot at the end of a shed session. (sorry about the imagry)
My main consern is upgrading to soon to something that will be inadequate in the near future and yet not getting sucked in (HA) to buying a 747 when all I need is a kite.
The main thing I lack I guess is experiance, which I will get, oh, and patience which I can't get quick enough.

[Wayne Davy]

Dave,

Save up and get a 2hp Twin Bag Dust Collector. These cost $340-$600 depending on brand/quality and nearly all of them have two 4 inch inlet ports. (they all look like this one http://svc010.bne011i.server-web.com/catalogue/carbatec2/cache/header-705public__0-0.html?cache=no)

I bought a cheap one from Hare and Forbes ($330 on sale) and used the motor/blower for the Cyclone. You don't have to build a Cyclone initially as the Bag unit will work Ok for your setup. If you build a Cyclone in the future, you will already have the blower/motor for it which is the costliest part.

Cheers,