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contrebasse
21st September 2006, 10:51 PM
I'm building a double bass from Western Red Cedar and Silky Oak.

I've never done this before.

Might be interesting for some of you.

http://z4.invisionfree.com/double_bass

myguitar
22nd September 2006, 09:59 AM
That is a massive task. Wow. It looks amazing. Silky oak looks divine!
Taken my breath away.

Well done!

Look forward to the progress! Love the baby tools you use! I also used a small plane on my accoustic guitar. Such delights!

:D

Paul B
22nd September 2006, 12:39 PM
What a great project! Good job!

Man, I'd like to build one of those. Don't know what I'd do with it, certainly couldn't play it. :rolleyes:

I'm just finishing up SS guitar #2, not that I can play that very well either:D

contrebasse
22nd September 2006, 06:32 PM
Well they say they make great sailboats, or great firewood :eek: ...

When I explained to a neighbour about scooping out the top to make the curve, she said "oh, like a dugout canoe?" to which I had to reply "Well, Yes!"

I'm going to play mine.

I do recommend the silicone heat blanket for bending the ribs. So easy.

Phil Mailloux
22nd September 2006, 10:47 PM
This is definitely something interesting for me! I've been thinking of building a double-bass for a while.

I love your website. I only read the first page of the top yet but I'll be reading the whole thing in the course of the next few days (or weeks, it's a lot of info :D )

Where did you get the plans or books needed to plan this and build it properly?
I'm kinda curious to know how much all that Silky Oak and Cedar cost you. :eek:

EDIT: I read a bit more and was shocked to find that you hang out and got most of your info on talkbass. I completely forgot there's actually a double-bass forum there :D I'm on the electrics forum practically everyday

contrebasse
22nd September 2006, 11:37 PM
I'm on the electrics forum practically everyday

There's an electrics forum on Talkbass?????

The cedar cost $90 from local hardware store.
The silky oak cost about $280 cut and milled to rough size
Blocks were cedar, another $20
Plywood for the mould - about $80
MDF and plywood for frames, jigs etc - $50
Blackwood for the neck (untried, unfinished) $50

Then I'll have to buy an ebony fingerboard about $450
+ machines $250, endpin $120, bridge $120, strings $250, bag $300 etc etc etc etc ....

where did you buy your carbon rod inserts?

Mailloux? français alors?

Phil Mailloux
23rd September 2006, 07:16 AM
[FONT=Century Gothic][SIZE=2]Mailloux? français alors?

Exactement. ;)

I saw you lived in Aix-en-Provence for a while. I visited it a few years ago. I'm originally french-canadian.

kiwigeo
23rd September 2006, 02:08 PM
[SIZE=2][FONT=Century Gothic]where did you buy your carbon rod inserts?

Mailloux? français alors?

The CF rods in my acoustics are sourced from Stewemac and LMI.

kiwigeo
23rd September 2006, 02:11 PM
I do recommend the silicone heat blanket for bending the ribs. So easy.

Questions:

1. are you using 240 or 110 volt blankets?
2. are you using a timer and/or controller. if so where did you source same.

Not using blankets myself as I prefer the old fashioned electric pipe bender but the info would be of use to others in here.

Cheers and thanks Martin

contrebasse
23rd September 2006, 11:00 PM
240 volt blankets from Watco in Melbourne. The girl on the phone is very helpful. They come in several sizes, take a couple of weeks to deliver. I didn't use a controller, just a switch and an RCD safety cutout. They just get hot and when everything's hot enough, turn them off. You need to earth any metal sheeting used for the RCD to function. All the details are on my website in the Ribs section. You could adapt a standard stove element thermostat controller quite easily if you wanted to.

In the end I chose to use blanket because the principle of heating the whole rib at once appealed to me. With a pipe bender you only heat a few mm at a time, fairly slow and can scorch the wood. But I found that for the linings, this method was better.

My 10" x 18" blanket cost about $230.

kiwigeo
24th September 2006, 09:17 AM
An excellent account of the project on the website Matthew.

Is earthing the metal sheeting necessary. I assume this is in case the silicon blanket gets ruptured or is it required for normal operation of the blanket?

I noticed the tearout problems you were having while planing the silkky oak. Have you tried a scraper plane? I use same on alot of my tops and also on rosewood sides and backs.

Cheers Martin

contrebasse
24th September 2006, 09:30 AM
The earthing is a safety thing, in case the blanket gets cut. Water, sharp metal and 240volts can be lethal! But an RCD device will only work if the thing it is protecting is earthed. I meant to solder some bulldog clips on the earth leads, that would have been easier. But i didn't.

The tearout problem was sorted by correct choice of planing angle and a sharp blade. No, I don't have a scraper plane. In fact though, when i used a scraper on the silky oak, I found it actually scraped away the decorative flecks - so I stopped finishing with a scraper and went back to sandpaper.

kiwigeo
24th September 2006, 02:32 PM
Roger all that. Still happy sweating away on my pipe bender but one day I might give the blankets a go. Might even give building a bass a go as well.

Tarant
4th October 2006, 10:35 AM
Hi there :)

I must say that im impressed, quite the project to start out on.

I used to play the double bass years ago, and would dearly love to play it again (of all the instruments ive played the bass just really strikes a soul chord - love em). The thought of actually building one myself never occurred... but it sure is now!
Thanks! or maybe I should be cursing your name... we'll know before too long im thinking. :)

I think id like to construct a bass from Australian timbers - something a little unusual.

Good luck and ill certainly be following the results!

-Tarant

contrebasse
4th October 2006, 11:39 AM
The only timber I'm using that isn't australian so far is western red cedar for the top. If I could have found some king billy or bunya pine big enough I would have used that. Need planks about 2" thick and 10" wide.

hardest wood to find was the wood for the ribs because you can make up planks for the front and back but the ribs are so thin its hard to make up a wide plank. you need about 10" for a big bass.

Malibu
4th October 2006, 07:24 PM
That's one impressive project!
I'm embarking on an arch top guitar (Up to the stage of the molds and now waiting on some Queensland Maple coming, which should be tomorrow) so I was very interested in your trials, tribulations and successes.
Great idea about soaking the wood in vinegar and rusty nails! I haven't heard of that one, but I'll keep it in mind when I do my purflings (in about 12 months time!!)
Great work, looking forward to seeing the end product. Well done

PS: the blanket you are protecting with an RCD doesn't need to be earthed. RCD's use a balanced current path, ie: what goes in MUST come out... if it doesn't equal (by more than 30 mA) it determines there must be an earth leakage fault and will trip out. It's more complicated than that 'on paper', but basically it senses any tiny bit of current that goes astray (hopefully NOT through you!)

contrebasse
18th October 2006, 12:55 AM
PS: the blanket you are protecting with an RCD doesn't need to be earthed. RCD's use a balanced current path, ie: what goes in MUST come out... if it doesn't equal (by more than 30 mA) it determines there must be an earth leakage fault and will trip out. It's more complicated than that 'on paper', but basically it senses any tiny bit of current that goes astray (hopefully NOT through you!)

Well ... my electrician buddy reckons it still has to be earthed, as the balanced current path is calculated relative to earth - how else would you measure it?

How's your archtop coming on?

I'm spending a LOT of time on carving the top. Its a real eye-opener, engineering and art at the same time. Basically I'm discovering that everything must slope evenly away from the bridge. That sounds easy, but on a top nearly 4 feet long, its got its challenges ... and then there's the recurve that de-couples the top from the sides.

kiwigeo
18th October 2006, 10:24 AM
Coming along nicely there CB...

Malibu
18th October 2006, 08:09 PM
Gday Contre'
I understand your ideas about RCD's and the role the earth plays in the operation, but (and I love a good discussion!!) the basis of the RCD is to measure current between the Active (that's the one that kills) and the Neutral (it's actually connected to the earth via a link called an MEN, Multiple Earthed Neutral... you may have noticed a copper rod driven into the ground somewhere near your house switchboard with a wire connected to it)
Here's an extract from Wikipedia (http://www.answers.com/topic/residual-current-device)

...
Operation:
Single phase (http://www.answers.com/topic/single-phase-electric-power) RCDs operate by measuring the current balance between two conductors using a differential current transformer (http://www.answers.com/topic/transformer), and opening the device's contacts if there is a balance fault (i.e. a difference in current between the phase conductor and the neutral conductor). More generally (single phase, three phase (http://www.answers.com/topic/three-phase-supply), etc.) RCDs operate by detecting a nonzero sum of currents, i.e. the current in the "hot" or "hots" plus that in the "neutral" must equal zero (within some small tolerance), otherwise there is a leakage of current to somewhere else (to ground, or to another circuit, etc.)
...

In other words, what current goes in.. must come back out in the neutral. If there's an out of balance in the two, there MUST be a current path somewhere else. Generally, that path is to earth, something that is inescapable because you're standing on it.
At work, it's standing company policy (and I think an SAA wiring rule regulation) that all portable appliances are to have an RCD fitted. This includes Double Insulated tools of which 99% of tools today are.
If the appliance needed to be earthed wouldn't it be a waste of time to fit RCD's to them?
I'll rig up a test tomorrow at work and jerry up a few circuits of what works and what doesn't and get back to you :)

Anyway, the archtop is coming along slooooowly.... I seem to be making more tools/jigs than getting anything 'real' done on it. The timber arrived for the back and sides and wow! what a magnificent piece of Queensland Maple!! I hope I can do it justice.
I'm looking forward to the carving part too and I expect a lot of head-scratching and a steep learning curve when I do. I must admit, I'm looking forward to the challenge.
A good point you made when you said "engineering and art"... so true and so close to the way I view it too. I also think it's one thing that can't be (fully) made with power tools, but needs the delicate touch and slow hands to get the best out of it.

Keep up your good work and I'll let you know how my experiment goes at work tomorrow!

Iain
18th October 2006, 08:36 PM
Would a Viola de Gamba be a less ambitious project for those who have not started on this path?????

Jackspira
18th October 2006, 09:01 PM
Nice mitres in the purfling! lovely
Jack

contrebasse
18th October 2006, 10:45 PM
Would a Viola de Gamba be a less ambitious project for those who have not started on this path?????

I reckon it'd be about the same work. And do you know anyone who can play one?

A viola de gamba would use marginally less wood I suppose, but everything else is the same, except you'd have to worry about FRETS, too ...

A cello would be nice to make ... check this out - really inspiring:

http://violoncello.com/ericbartlett/index.htm

kiwigeo
19th October 2006, 04:31 AM
A cello would be nice to make ... check this out - really inspiring:



Dont get me started on cellos!!!!:mad:

A very unsexy instrument....especially when played by the fairer sex. Maybe its just me, but the sight of a woman playing a cell conjurs up images of a mother in the midst of childbirth.

And the sound...the woeful moaning of an instrument thats not at peace with itself.

Iain
19th October 2006, 07:43 AM
Maybe its just me, but the sight of a woman playing a cell conjurs up images of a mother in the midst of childbirth.

There was a well known conductor who is supposed to have said of a lady playing a Cello rather poorly 'Madam, between your legs you have an instrument that can bring pleasure to thousands and all you can do is scratch it'.
The only reason I mentioned the Viola de Gamba was because of the flat front, I thought the bridge would take care of the playing of the instrument by aligning the strings in the more 'conventional' form.
I was not aware that they were a fretted instrument though but have never paid that much attention to them.

contrebasse
19th October 2006, 08:09 AM
as far as I know a viola de gamba has a carved front too. But they do have a flat back.

Malibu
19th October 2006, 07:15 PM
G'day Contre
As promised, a hard day at the office running RCD tests... And I was thinking this thread is starting to get away from your original bass project; maybe should start another thread?
Anyway, the results... I did 4 configurations, and 15 tests all up, but the two results that are of interest:

I used an RCD feeding a "load" (in this case a 24VDC power supply) with the earth disconnected from the power supply frame.
I placed a fault current from the Active to the RCD earth and I had a trip. I then did a fault current from the Active to a nearby copper air pipe and had a trip.
Both results (or, in the case of a person being the source of the fault current) there was an "out of balance" load on the RCD which causes a trip, even though the power supply frame was not earthed and sitting on an MDF workbench.

I highly recommend you have an RCD on your blanket just to be safe and I'm going to do the same with my bending iron set-up (Hey, electricians aren't immune from being fried either!!)

Great to have got the opportunity do do some interesting "fiddling about" at the workbench today... Thanks!! :)

contrebasse
19th October 2006, 11:43 PM
On the weekend I made myself an electric bending iron with a piece of 50mm hills-hoist iron pipe and two 40-watt bulbs inside. I used the thin, pointy bulbs that are used in fancy light fittings. Cheap enough. I used two ceramic bayonet mounts and pushed them in from either end of the pipe and plugged the hole.

Total cost for my bending iron - about $20.00

But it works very well indeed - much hotter than I'd imagined it could get with just two globes. Good for bending purfling and linings.

Needless to say, I'll be using the RCD in case something melts inside ...

Matthew

Malibu
22nd October 2006, 07:01 PM
Gday Matthew
I wondered how a couple of light globes would go as a bending iron after I saw a setup on the web by that method... I thought, Nah, it couldn't work!!
Obviously it does, so I might have to tinker with one myself.
My iron is a little over the top! Solid aluminium bar with a 450W rod heater, digital temperature control and thermocouple feedback. I'd hate to be buying the parts to make it, but (a-hem!) work was good to me in spare parts :rolleyes:

Anyway, I just called in to express my new found appreciation for your bass building job!
I started carving the backplate for my archtop today, and that's one hell of a job in itself! I tried chisels (4 sizes), sanders (3 different ones), spokeshaves (2 of them) and a roll of sandpaper (with and without blocks) and the ONLY thing that worked on this darned figured maple is the little ol' scraper.
What a blessing it is when it's sharpened right and you get the right feel for it, but what a lot of time ahead left to go. I spared you a thought and pictured your bass (and that re-curve!!). :D

John

kiwigeo
23rd October 2006, 05:21 AM
Light bulbs do work. You can use them inside a pipe or you can run 2 or three 100-150 watt bulbs inside a Fox style bending jig.

Malibu....glad to see youve discovered the joys of cabinet scrapers. I love the things....I especially love the way they raise those neat little blisters on the ends of your thumbs.

contrebasse
23rd October 2006, 09:36 AM
the way they raise those neat little blisters on the ends of your thumbs.

I grind the cprners off (the scraper, not my thumbs) and use a few strips of masking tape on the back of the scraper to stop my thumbs from burning ...

Paul B
23rd October 2006, 12:16 PM
Light bulbs work great at a heat source as something like 90% of the energy going to them is radiated as heat. They're much more efficient as heaters than as light sources.

I was running three 150W bulbs in my fox bender, but had to reduce the heat by going to two 150's and one 100W.

contrebasse
23rd October 2006, 12:42 PM
When you're using a fox bender, you lay the rib material FLAT across the top of the frame between the upper and lower bouts, right? Then clamp down in the cutaway, and then at either end when the ribs get hot?

How do the parts of the ribs NOT in contact with the frame get hot enough? What's to stop the heat escaping out the sides?

contrebasse
23rd October 2006, 01:57 PM
the ONLY thing that worked on this darned figured maple is the little ol' scraper.

I reckon you need to buy a thumb plane or two. Think tiny controllable spokeshaves.

One with arched sole - make parallel shallow grooves in the wood in all directions to ensure your arching is even.

Then use a small flat-soled thumb-plane to even out the grooves before using scrapers and sandpaper to finish.

For a guitar, I think you'd need thumbplanes with a sole about 30mm long.

kiwigeo
23rd October 2006, 02:47 PM
When you're using a fox bender, you lay the rib material FLAT across the top of the frame between the upper and lower bouts, right? Then clamp down in the cutaway, and then at either end when the ribs get hot?

How do the parts of the ribs NOT in contact with the frame get hot enough? What's to stop the heat escaping out the sides?

The sides are bent over a form that fits into the frame of the bender. A bit hard to explain without pics. The form is enclosed except for the bottom which is open and sits over the bulbs. The top surface of the form is usually metal and this is in contact with the rib. I usually put in a bit of a bend at the waist using a bending iron before I put the side into the bending jig.

kiwigeo
23rd October 2006, 02:49 PM
Light bulbs work great at a heat source as something like 90% of the energy going to them is radiated as heat. They're much more efficient as heaters than as light sources.

I was running three 150W bulbs in my fox bender, but had to reduce the heat by going to two 150's and one 100W.

Good god man were you trying to barbeque your ribs???? 3 x 150's is getting hot. Im using 1 150 and 2 100's.

Youre right about light bulbs being a horribly inefficient light source.

Malibu
23rd October 2006, 07:53 PM
I reckon you need to buy a thumb plane or two. Think tiny controllable spokeshaves.
<snip>
For a guitar, I think you'd need thumbplanes with a sole about 30mm long.

Ah yeah, they're on my "to get" list and I have a couple of them half made at work. I'm not sure at this stage if they'll be better than the wafer thin shavings I take off with the spokeshave because my problem is the grain direction. And the fact that there isn't any!
I get a lot of tear-outs even when I use the scrapers too heavy handed. At the moment I'm not worried because it's still only rough carving and I'm using the "meat" that's left on the plate as a practice run... Just trying out techniques for the best way to tackle the final stage. If I get a tear out it's not so much of a drama at the moment.
It's an interesting project to be doing... like you say, somewhere between art and engineering!

John

PS: the 30mm planes are the ones I've been looking at, but unfortunately, the budget is on shaky ground right now! :eek:

Geoffd
23rd October 2006, 08:28 PM
I have a son who plays Double Bass & a daughter who plays a cello both have asked me to make them an instument.
I will follow your progress.
Can any one let me know if there would be much interest in like minded people (those silly enough to try and make these instrumenst) getting together a few times a year to encurrage each other.
I look forward to hearing from others.:)

contrebasse
23rd October 2006, 10:20 PM
well i'd be in it, but I'm in sydney. Don't know whether I'd come down unless there'd be something good organised.

there's the national folk festival in canberra at easter, there's a makers forum there of sorts. We could organise something around THAT I suppose, or something similar closer to you ...

Malibu
23rd October 2006, 10:35 PM
I reckon I'd be in it too...:)

John

contrebasse
24th October 2006, 06:20 PM
where's wandong? Maybe we could all meet on Kiwigeo's oil rig?

One advantage of thumb planes is that you can hold the whole thing at an angle and plane with a slicing action which is a great way to get around the grain direction conundrum. I'd go nuts doing it all with a scraper. How much of an arch do you need in an archtop guitar?

matthew

Malibu
24th October 2006, 07:40 PM
Ahhh.. Wandong!
The bustling hive of activity, the action centre of... of..... well... there was action earlier today when I called in to collect my mail, but that was it for the day once I left ;)
Wandong is about 20 minutes north of Melbourne, near enough to Kilmore... which is why I tell people I live at Kilmore because I'm usually asked where Wandong is :D
A nice place to live, but not too many luthiers around here I don't think. On the plus side, we have TWO pubs which has got to be a good thing!
Where did you come up with Kiwigeo and the oil-rig?

I do the same cutting action with the spokeshave and I can get a beautiful sliver of timber come off as I do, but of course the handles of the spokeshave tend to get in the way. I've gone off the scraper for now (had enough practice with it) and I'm hacking into it with a set of sanding sticks, because I'm just about down to a "near enough" shape and ready to carve the inside. Still a bit to go, but when I started this adventure I wanted something that forced me to go slow and easy... I get enough of the rush-rush-rush stuff at work and I want something exacting that calls for skill and patience (neither of which I have any of!;))
An archtop is about a 20mm arch with the back thickness around 3-4mm and the front about 5-6; a good ways short of a bass I'd imagine!

John

kiwigeo
25th October 2006, 05:14 AM
where's wandong? Maybe we could all meet on Kiwigeo's oil rig?

matthew

Great idea but youd all have to do a 2 day helicopter crash training course first and finding you all bunk space out here might be a problem. You might also have a few problems getting your guitars on the chopper..15kg baggage weight limit on the chopper and at the moment theyre flying us out to the rig on Bell 212's (10 seater with luggage bundled in behind back seats).

Malibu
26th October 2006, 07:39 PM
Gday Matthew,
I finished working on a finger plane tonight, check out:
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=38377
for the nitty-gritty pictures if you'd like.
It works great and takes the most delicate sliver of wood off from the maple..
John

gratay
26th October 2006, 08:15 PM
malibu,
I love the little finger plane....impressive...very resourceful
Are you building an archtop from the bennedetto book ?
I am going to have a crack at one oneday...its the only way I could afford one...

Malibu
26th October 2006, 09:10 PM
Thanks Gratay, I had a ball building it and was pretty stoked when it actually worked... saved myself 60 bucks in the process too!
One more to go, being the curved one!
Naturally the Bennedetto book has prominence in this venture and even if you're not going to build an archtop, it's still full of good ideas and tricks. Although, I have found the book to be a little "light on" in parts that is not evident until you actually start to build one, it's still a great reference book to have.
I can recommend building one though... I'm having a good time with everything that is involved in it... from sourcing timber to making finger planes.
It's a shame I don't play guitar!!! :eek:

John

contrebasse
26th October 2006, 09:42 PM
The planes are great. But put up some pics of your arching ... :-)

gratay
26th October 2006, 10:12 PM
malibu,
Yes I found the benedetto book skimming over a few areas as well but theres a lot of great ideas and jigs in that book....I'd imagine his videos which are 9 hours of footage would be really amazing and clear a lot of stuff up....I'd love to see those.

Paul B
27th October 2006, 10:28 AM
Great idea but youd all have to do a 2 day helicopter crash training course first

A helicopter crash training course?

But I allready know how to scream.:D

kiwigeo
27th October 2006, 12:39 PM
Screaming not recommended during the course...youre underwater once the mock up cabin goes into the pool and having your mouth open is not a good idea. Theyre generally pretty good with nervous people or non-swimmers. They give you a special red coloured helmet so the divers know to keep an eye on you.

kiwigeo
27th October 2006, 12:41 PM
Great looking little plane there John.

Malibu
27th October 2006, 07:47 PM
... But put up some pics of your arching ... :-)

Thanks for the planes comments guys... I finished the curved one tonight and it works like a treat too so I'm really happy with them.

Matthew: Here's a few pictures of the arching. Really hard to see, but it's the best I can do.

Kiwigeo: They actually toss you in the water for helicopter crash training?? That's some serious training you go through! Un-nerving, I'll bet!

gratay
27th October 2006, 08:19 PM
looking good so far malibu...
queensland maple should work quite well as an archtop body me thinks...
what is the neck and fingerboard going to be?
keep us posted with your progress ..

contrebasse
27th October 2006, 11:45 PM
Thanks - yeah that looks good so far! A left-hander, to boot!

Are you working with arching templates or just by eye?

Have you got the top glued to the plywood base just for carving?

contrebasse
28th October 2006, 02:07 AM
http://home.pacifier.com/~davewe/old_luthier_tools.htm

Malibu
28th October 2006, 07:37 AM
This is thread starting to get off the topic of Contre's bass... If you don't mind, I might copy your excellent idea and do a WIP web page and update it as time permits...
But for now, no, it's not a left hander, I'm carving the back (I had to quickly check in case of a major stuff up :eek:) and it's not glued to the MDF caul, just clamped on it for support on the workbench.
I use the templates for a rough guide, but mostly go with eye and more importantly the feel of the shape. I found the templates in the book too hard to conform to.
It's a beautiful piece of Q'land Maple but as I've said, really difficult with grain direction... I'm slowly getting used to the nuances of carving it.
Early plans so far, but I'm thinking of a laminated Q'land maple neck with ebony fingerboard/tailpiece and all the other trimmings. Not sure at this stage what the laminations will be. I've got a piece of spruce coming in from Canada and if it's a good looker, I'll use that for the top.

Matthew: I had a quick look at that web page on the planes and it looks pretty good. I'll delve a little deeper later on. Check out this one I found on e-bay and suss out the price of it! Needless to say, I didn't bid on it

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NORRIS-THUMB-PLANE-RARE-AND-IN-EXCELLENT-CONDITION_W0QQitemZ190042479128QQihZ009QQcategoryZ13874QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

John

contrebasse
28th October 2006, 08:43 AM
Invisionfree is, yes, free and I host my pics on pichotel.com (also free). I use Irfanview (free) to "batch resize and re-save" all my pics which is a real timesaver.

The great thing about the WIP page is that it gives extra push to keep progressing, because so many people are watching ...

kiwigeo
28th October 2006, 08:46 AM
and it's not glued to the MDF caul, just clamped on it for support on the workbench.


Would call it a workboard more than a caul John. Good to see youre getting geared up to build an acoustic :D

Malibu
28th October 2006, 10:57 AM
Thanks for the tips Matthew; I just set up a site on my own server and now I'll try and remember how to do HTML. It's been a long time, but I like a good challenge!
Kiwi: I'm a bit in awe at the "little" things that are needed, and some of the nice-to-have things. I seem to be making endless variations of sanding sticks and accumulating mass collections of clamps, etc.. Such a shame, isn't it? I need more and more tools and for no better reason than "wow, THAT would be nice to have!":D