Tex and Bodgy's excellent adventure with a horizontal mortiser.

[Bodgy]

Gossiping in Tex's shed a fortnight ago, it transpired that our Tex is a fan of loose tenon joinery. We both would like a Dominatrix (mine was flesh and blood) but take the firm position that the good Herr Doktor Professor Fess is rich enough already, and weekend hackers, without Basson's wealth, should not go there.

So, for what Tex has in mind a horizontal router would do the business. Tex googled the design, and some old copies of WW magazines provided three shop built examples. All were easily constructed, but all had significant weaknesses. Mainly in the area of raising the router, a couple used shims for the sliding table, which we found 'agricultural' to say the least.

So, with donated T track, old folding rule, old chipboard shelves, old GMC lemon router table plate and other scraps - plus a brand new B&D 1100 watt router (on special $60 odd) we knocked up a propotype. Suprise, suprise, it actually worked very well, excepting a few, easily solved issues.

We had a beer, cut a few mortices, and decided to proceed to the next stage.

As can be seen by the prototype piccies, there is only one true innovation on the machine, the rest of it is just plagarised, buggered around and derivative.

The innovation is the positive stops. In the prototype, I just driled 6mm holes and used dowel, but it works a dream. The whole idea of this machine is to be able to quickly, accurately and repeatedly cut identical mortises in timber. Something like making a set of dining chairs. A production line really.

The stops are cloned. Two zero's, depending on whether you slide the table L to R or vice versa. Thats the start of the traverse, the other stop is placed in a predrilled hole, exactly the length of your mortise away. Consequently, each mortice MUST be the same length. In the 'production' model the stop block may be seen. The work butts up against this and is firmly held by up to 3 sliding clamps in T tracks.

The only other variable, assuming your stock is square and constant, is the depth of the mortice. The BD router has the usual revolving turret depth stop with three positions, or 4 if you miss the stops. The best way is to take each mortise cut in three goes, so as not to stress the router or bit.

I had intended to mechanise the router insertion, but the prototype proved that it was most efficient just to reach over the table, release the depth lock, twist the turret and plunge. Easy as.

Another 'Heath Robinson' innovation, I was keen on, was to motorise the traverse table, however the greater wisdom of Tex prevailed. His (correct) assertion was that a manual feed can control the rate of feed, and slow if nec, when one hits a hard bit, ie knot.

Pity, as I was going to cannabalise a variable spped drill, with clutch, and have the stop pin close an electrical circuit to cut the drill motor. Would have been pretty smick. Maybe next time.

The router lift mechanism is self explanatory from the pics. From 5mm, centre of bit, above table to about 45mm, which should cater for most apps. Width of mortise is limited to size of router bit, depth is n/a as we haven't purchased the final bit yet. The fluted bits seem to cut better than the spiral upcut? Any advice would be welcomed.

The sliding table has a piece of Studley's Spotted Gum, about 25mm wide, 5mm recessed into table and sliding in a routed groove on the base. All waxed up and it slides with just fingertip pressure.

Black finish to MDF and Chipboard is Spnsors Shellac with lots of Talc and black brickies oxide (sorry Neil)

All hardware from McJings, Router from Bumblies. Veneered chipboard base, MDF everything else, excepting the main router slide fence, which was, again, Studley's Spotted Gum.

Maybe three days, all up in project.

Costs:

Router $60
MDF $25
Cntre Finder scale $15
36 inch T track plus 3 hold downs $25
Steel stop/start positive stops (6) $3
2 x black knobs ? $5

All the rest was stuff Tex and I had lying around.

Total all (replacement) say < $200

Yeh, its not a Fesfool, but if you're mortising 32 chair legs in 2 or three faces, I reckon its quicker, and with the same, repeatable, accuracy.

Surprisingly the dust collection on this cheapo router is excellent, although maybe the spiral upcut bit helped.

More info, once its used in anger.

Anything you like about it was my idea, all the stuff ups go to TexB.

[Bodgy]

Final version of the mortiser

[Doughboy]

Is there anything you cant do???? Next thing you will be telling me that it is theoretically possible for men to bear children....

I take my hat off to you and your can do attitude. You my friend, if I may use that term, are an inspiration to me and I look forward to the day I may inspire you. (Dont hold your breathe)

Pete

[bsrlee]

Excellent work Gentlemen. Might even get me off my broad end & start making my version.

Do you use any sort of bearing for the lateral slide? I was going to use one or two ball bearing drawer slides.

[Rocker]

I am wondering what advantages, if any, your mortiser has over my morticing jig, which is more compact, does not require the router to be fixed to the jig, and is probably marginally cheaper and quicker to make.

Rocker

[Lignum]

I am wondering what advantages, if any, your mortiser has over my morticing jig, which is more compact, does not require the router to be fixed to the jig, and is probably marginally cheaper and quicker to make.

Rocker

They done a great job on their jig but im inclined to agree with Rocker. Its the same with the domino. taking the machine to the peice is so much quicker and more accurate when controlling it by hand:)

[Bodgy]

Thanks for the comments, guys

Specifically:

BingLee. You absolutely don't need any mechanism for the sliding table. I pondered this but found with some wax and flat surfaces it slides beautifully.

Rocky. I'm sure you're right. Be gentle with us usurpers.

Ligs. I can only compare my experience with a biscuit cutter. This machine is far faster. I doubt that any other method can be more accurate. The whole point of the exercise was to take operator error out of the equasion. Due to the stops, each mortise must be the same.

Which would I prefer, your Domino or my jig? No contest - your Dominator.

Where would I prefer my $1600 to reside, the Herr Doktor's numbered Swiss bank account or my modest deposits? You guess.

[Stuart]

Final version of the mortiser
Don't believe it - we want video evidence ;)

[Bodgy]

Don't believe it - we want video evidence ;)

Zed and I have been playing with that idea, mainly for my home made forge. Could easily add this jig, which will reside at the TexB ranch.

Will introduce at the next board meeting of the Nth Shore Mafia.

[Ashore]

Good job using all the stuff lying about, Couldn't you with diffrent height adjustment cut the tennons as well or are you only going to use floating tennons

Spielman had a deaign for a router table that you could move the router into a horizontal position which I thought about when I built my table but it wasn't practical for me at the time. But today with the price of cheep routers it is within the budget to have a dedicated set up like you guys have made, well done


Rgds

[routermaniac]

great jig, well put together

[Auld Bassoon]

Very ingenious Tex and Bodgy!

Well done!

PS the "without Basson's wealth, should not go there" is somewhat off the mark, to say the least, from several perspectives :D

[Zed]

how old was jack when he carved his name into your bench ? did he get in strife for diong it and did he have to resharpen the chisels once he was done ?when you go back to work you'll look at these pictures with envious eyes and say "I wish I had time to cut mortices for 32 chairs....

[Zed]

after a re-read : $1600 + costs of the domino bisquits - you gotta be farkin' kiddin' !!!

[Lignum]

after a re-read : $1600 + costs of the domino bisquits - you gotta be farkin' kiddin' !!!


What costs $1600 :confused:

[Auld Bassoon]

after a re-read : $1600 + costs of the domino bisquits - you gotta be farkin' kiddin' !!!

Zed old mate,

$1600 or thereabouts buys the Domino, a Systainer stuffed full of Dominoes, plus the full set of cutters, plus the two optional stops (have a look at this (http://www.festool.com.au/mediandoweb/index.cfm?sLanguage=English&ID_O_TREE_GROUP=3675&PARENT=2578&AKTIVPROD=1)).

I can only say again how much faster, more accurately and more ultimately satisfying it is to be able to produce properly accurate joinery with a tool like this that, even with just the odd commission here & there, Domi is definitely the way to go.

If one only makes one chair, or one furniture piece carcass a year, then it's gross overkill, but if one makes, even a bit, more than that on a commission basis, look at it, try it, feel it, and you'll be convinced.

I am.

[ernknot]

Well done guys. You'd have to call it a Textool, couldn't call it a Bodgytool!

[Tex B]

Rocker. I'm sure your precision jig would do as well or probably better. However I have found that I make more stuff ups when using the router hand held than when the router is fixed and I move the piece. Maybe it's just my lack of coordination, but that was one of the things that prompted the excellent adventure.

Lignum, Steve, et al. I'm sure the domino does it better as well. Maybe some day (sigh). Until then, Bodgy and I will have some fun with this one. Actually, reading about your adventures with the domino, it sounds like one of the real advantages to the tool is the ability to cut all pieces to the exact final dimension, and then use floating tenon joinery. So we'll try and do that without the ease and versatility of the domino, and without using a router hand held, and use up some bits we had laying around.

And who knows, maybe bodgy will patent the bits he didn't reveal in the photo, and you'll all be singing the praises of the amazing bodg-o-matic in a year or two. ;)

Tex

[Auld Bassoon]

Tex (and Bodgy!)

If you can do that, all credit to you. Just paint it black and red (instead of lime green), and call it a "Festorator" :eek: :D :D

[Lignum]

Tex&Bodg:D Im not having a go at your great jig as it looks and no doubt cuts perfect and other members would be silly not to try it out. The only reason we Domi users have responded is it was Bodg in the first place who made comparison by mentioning the Domi and Festool a few times and we are just responding. No big deal ;)

[Lignum]

Tex (and Bodgy!)

If you can do that, all credit to you. Just paint it black and red (instead of lime green), and call it a "Festorator" :eek: :D :D

Or the "Bodgino":eek: :D

[Tex B]

The Bodgino.

I love it.

Look for it in next year's catalogs. (you won't find it, but look anyway)

Tex

[Doughboy]

By Gingo I think I need a bodgino!!!!!

What colours are you going to present them in???? 'cos I am such a fashion conscience bloke..

Pete

[Tex B]

By Gingo I think I need a bodgino!!!!!

What colours are you going to present them in???? 'cos I am such a fashion conscience bloke..

Pete

Guess it will have to be Swan red.

Tex

[Lignum]

Tex how are you plunging it, Are you doing it by hand? I seen in a Shop notes some years back with a Bisc joiner inverted that was plunged with a "push bike" cable hooked up to to a foot pedal. Might be a great idea for you two:D

[Bodgy]

Tex how are you plunging it, Are you doing it by hand? I seen in a Shop notes some years back with a Bisc joiner inverted that was plunged with a "push bike" cable hooked up to to a foot pedal. Might be a great idea for you two:D

Ligs, I'll reply to this.

Its manually plunged. I had ideas of a mechanical plunge, some sort of lever, which would be easy enough to construct, but on the prototype, as one leant over the machine to free the lock, it seemed narural to plunge manually. Also as the BD router can't really cut anything deeper than about 10mm (in one go), you have to make two passes.

We are discussing a bigger 1/2 inch jointer currently, which may have the grunt to cut the whole morise in one go. That would be magnificent (remember we only work in Oz hardwoods)

Your suggestion of a foot pedal is sensational, I think I'll incoporate into MkII with the motorised traverse table.

The thing is up for acceptance trial tomorrow, so wil report back.

Incidentally, on Tex's request, I added a height gauge for the router bit.

[Lignum]

Ill try and hunt down the article and post it for you:D

[derekcohen]

Bodgy and Tex

Bloody well done! I just love to see these creations.

The horizontal jigs I have seen (articles , that is - I have not made one myself) all use a pair of sliding tables. One to slide the stretcher sideways and another to plunge in-and-out. Have you a similar arrangement, or how do you do this?

I have toyed with the idea of building one myself. It just looks a cool tool! I doubt that I would actually ever use it since I am not into loose tenon joinery. As you know, I tend to do things the old fashioned way. But I still think it is a great jig.

{edit by Derek}

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Flowboy]

Hi Bodgy and Tex,

That's a totally awesome beast dudes. But could it totally loogy on the domino? Being that I'm just a hacker, the thing I like about the domino is that it's one cut and move on. Doesn't matter if the legs are tapered or straight. And having just done 8 chairs with tapered legs cutting in two planes on each leg total of 4 cuts per back and 2 per front set of legs, I can tell you, its quick. Alas though, tres expensive. (but totally worth it, good Bodgy and good Tex)
And don't forget you can make your own dominoes guys.

"You may be a King or a lowly street sweeper, but sooner or later, you dance with the Reaper"
The Death Rap- Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure.

Rob

[Bodgy]

Derek

The horizontal jigs I have seen (articles , that is - I have not made one myself) all use a pair of sliding tables. One to slide the stretcher sideways and another to plunge in-and-out. Have you a similar arrangement, or how do you do this?

Yes, most of them do, but we found it makes more sense and is easier to plunge the router. The other designs probably do this as its a little difficult to make the 'router raiser' mechanism. I'd already made two raisers previously, for an old router table so had had some experience.

Flowboy

Yeh we can't do accurate tapered legs, on this model, but a bigger router and better bit should allow one cut for most mortices.

We'd both prefer a Domino
We'd both prefer not to pay for one.

[Tex B]

Had a good play with the Bodginator (tm) Mark 1 today. What a great piece of kit. I am building a shop cabinet to use as a base for the bandsaw. Simple 4x2 frames with ply panels and a door. 32 mortices to cut, or the old way, 16 mortices and 16 tenons.

Cut 28 of the 32 mortises with one setup. That's one (1) setup. Insert workpiece, clamp, plunge, move base, unplunge, unclamp, repeat.

Moved the stop block a bit and cut the other four mortises. Unbelievable time saver. Bodgy and I cranked out a few dozen tenons in a few minutes, slipped them in the mortises, and the birds were singing sweetly. From raw timber cut to length this afternoon, to side panels gluing up this evening, in just a couple of hours, with zero (0) stuffups.

This is a fantastic jig, and hats off to Bodgy for putting it together.

Now for some McLaren Vale red to top off the perfect day.

Tex

[Auld Bassoon]

Don't you love it when a plan comes together? (apologies for reference to a REALLY bad '70 Seppo TV show)

[Andy Mac]

Hi Bodgy and Tex,
I've been following this and it looks good guys!:D I'm intersted to see a close up of the slide mechanism, and if it moves in two directions??
Putting it to the test today, and its come up a winner!! Can't get better than that, you deserve a red wine or two...make that three.:cool:
Greenie coming.

Cheers,

[Caliban]

I haven't seen anything worth posting about in a month (before seeing your thread). You guys rock. As one who lives in a less prosperous postcode than either of you, I fully appreciate your reluctance to add to the coffers of herr Fess. Are you selling more detailed plans or does that require a personal visit and donation of a nice Margaret River red?
Great work and keep us posted.

[craigb]

I never read any post that's longer than 5 sentences.

Can somebody give me the condensed version?

[journeyman Mick]

I never read any post that's longer than 5 sentences.

Can somebody give me the condensed version?


Okay:
Dominator good but too much $$
Bodgy & Tex want accurate repeatable loose tenons for not many $$
They mount router in horizontal jig with stops
It fast & accurate, Bodgy & Tex happy
onlookers amazed and impressed

Mick:D

[Lignum]

Had a good play with the Bodginator (tm) Mark 1 today.


And have you thought of cutter sizes and depth and lateral pin stops so you can buy and use the domino dowels if you want? If you dont want to cut your own here are the sizes and prices. The 8 x 22 x 40 is my fav size and is as strong as. Anthony sells them in small bags if you want

5 x 19 x 30 - .06c each
6 x 20 x 40 - .10c each
8 x 22 x 40 - .15c each
8 x 22 x 50 - .20c each
10 x 24 x 50 - 23c each

[Tex B]

Lignum,

8x22x40. Hmmm. Ones we used today were 6(ish)x28x50. We had a 1/4" bit and a 90mm rail, so went for a 50mm mortise. Not sure which dimension is which, but I think the domino must be cutting 20mm deep mortices? We were going about 14.5 mm depth.

Tex

[bsrlee]

I ~think~ I know the reason for the plunge action via the table on the published plans - they all use fixed base routers. In the U.S., where the plans originate, fixed base routers are readily available & fairly cheap, whereas here they are like Rocking Horse dung.

Tex & Bodgy's design is what will work with any -plunge- router - B&D, Triton, Makita etc. The only thing that a fixed base router motor could add to this design is a tilting base as sold by Woodhaven -

http://www.woodhaven.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=18

but I'm certain that some inventive soul will come up with a substitute.

[ernknot]

Why can't we get fixed base routers here? I need one for my router table. The Bosch unit I use tends to creep down. Can't block it becuase the insert is not fixed.

[Bodgy]

Thanks for all the comments guys. Its a lovely feeling when something works, and it certainly does work.

Specifically:

Bassoon - Yes

Andy M - Yes it slides both ways, and if you look at the later photos you'll see that the scale guide reads both left and right from the central zero, although this is academic, as its only used to drill the hole for the stops and then identify these holes when setting up.

No need for pics of sliding table mechanism. Very simple. Both faces are MDF. About 100mm in from the fence I routed 2 x parallel 18mm trenches about 12mm deep on the base and 3mm into the table. I cut and jointed a strip of hardwood to these dimensions, slightly shorter than the table. Glued this into the table trench. Sanded out the base trench allowing the table to slide with only fingertip pressure. Shellac'ed all MDF faces, and sanded the two opposing sliding surface and the runner to 1200 grit. Waxed and polished. Slides like a bought one.

Caliban - sorry no plans, we just made it up as we went along. Happy to give dimensions, the piccies should tell the story

Craig - Just look at the piccies, like a comic

BRSL - That would explain it.

Lignum - That's it in 5 sentences

Good idea re the Domino biscuits, although it was very quick work to cut the floating tenons. Do these biscuits swell when glue hits them? Like the beech ones we use for the biscuit machines?

We have infinitely variable lateral and cutter depth stops. Next model will use a steel strip for the lateral slide stops, as after heavy use I think the constant banging against the stops in MDF will widen the holes. Easily fixed tho. A 1/2" router will give from 12mm down to whatever spiral upcut bits come small in mortice size. The only issue here is that for efficiency you should make the cut in one pass without having to change the depth. I'm unsure if we will be able to cut much deeper than 22mm with the bigger bits. I'm fairly confident but have to wait for the big spirals to arrive.

[Lignum]

Do these biscuits swell when glue hits them? Like the beech ones we use for the biscuit machines?
.

No. They are just normal solid timber tenons




I'm unsure if we will be able to cut much deeper than 22mm with the bigger bits. I'm fairly confident but have to wait for the big spirals to arrive.

This is the interesting bit. If you talk to all the Domi users the first thing they say is they expected to use the largest 10 x 50 tenon all the time (bigger = stronger) but its turned out not to be. Even the little 5 x 30 is amazingly strong, and that strength isnt because its been Dominoed because at the end of the day its just a standard floating tenon.

I susspect that for years i have been "over compensating" in bigger is better when it comes to the tenons Thats why the 8 x 40 has turned out to be the one i use almost 80% of the time. But logic is when you are joining table rails/legs you would use bigger (twin 10 x 50 is heaps for me) but for all other aplications your 22mm depth will heaps. 28-30 would be ideal.

The way i look at it is Heir Festool has spent a small fourtune on developing this system and no doubt would have tested the domino sizes for max strength Vs optimal size. So why not develop into the Bodginator, indexing the same as Domino for tenon depth and thickness and that could also extent to preset height (which is the great strength of Domi) and also apart from "exact" lateral fit, build into the Bodginator adjustable stop/s to increase the width by 3 or 4 mm which is also a brilliant feature for gluing up panels and table tops:)

[Bodgy]

Thats interesting Ligs. All of this could be easily acheived PROVIDED the bit was placed in the collet leaving exactly the same length protruding. I like the idea of the index, ie using a 6mm bit, the mortise is cut at XXX dimensions, a 12mm bit it's cut at YYY. Next model.

I'm also wondering if one could pick up cheap a Dominator that was wrecked, ie been dropped off a 5th floor, just for the cutter. I'd love to mount one in our machine instead of a router.

You're probably correct about us all overcompensating re the tenon sizes, particularly with modern glues. Unfortunately it'll probably be years before anyone's confident.

[Rocker]

The only issue here is that for efficiency you should make the cut in one pass without having to change the depth. I'm unsure if we will be able to cut much deeper than 22mm with the bigger bits. I'm fairly confident but have to wait for the big spirals to arrive.

Bodgy,

Cutting 22 mm depth in a single pass might be OK for a straight bit in softwood, if you have the type of bit that can do a plunge cut, but I think you would have major problems trying to do that in hardwood, particularly with spiral bits. With my jig, with which I always use spiral upcut bits, I normally cut only about 6 mm depth per pass. Even with shallow passes, some hardwoods, such as blackwood, are a bit prone to burning. Jarrah is easier to rout mortices in, even though it is harder than blackwood, because it doesn't produce long fibrous cuttings, as blackwood does. My guess is that you would find it more effective to use shallow passes, rather than trying to cut the mortice in a single pass.

Rocker

[Lignum]

If you just copied the mechanical method of the manual sliding table on slot morticers so you can go back and foward as you slowly plunge. Thats why i think the foot opperated (via pushbike cable) pulley to plunge the router in would be a great addition:)

[Bodgy]

Rocky

That's right, I found that I could not cut more than about 10mm into crapiatata, regardless of bit RPM or feed rate. What you say is absolutely correct but for efficiency we only want to make one cut, if at all possible. If you're just doing a table, say, then one would take two cuts at anything over 15mm depth, but the whole raison d'etre for the machine is to bring constantly repeatable accuracy AND efficiency to repetitious mortising, such as a set of chairs. Hence we have to pursue the one cut ideal.

(In truth the raison d'etre was that Tex couldn't cut his tenons accurately, and embraced loose tenon joinery, but thats talking out of school)

Fortunately, what we have (literally) tons of is Spotted Gum, which if you take things slowly is fine for the 22mm. Only problem we had was cutting thru the outer part of a knot. When the new bits arrive we'll try some other timbers and report back.

Incidentally we have, and will, only use spiral upcuts. The straight bits simply won't plunge, although once in they do cut fine.

Due to the gerousity, and dedication to empirical endeavour, of one forum member, we will also test a Domino cutter.

Exciting isn't it?

[Schtoo]

Bodgy, I really do like this thing, but haven't said so until now.

I have not added anything to my jig's post as yet, since I haven't actually used it for any MT work in the last few days. Dovetail, yes but not what it intended for even though it's frighteningly good at that too.

I wonder wether you can use blocks to adjust your cutting size. Make it cut, say the largest domino size, then simply place spacers between the stops for that size to cut the right size for the smaller dominos with the smaller bits.

I use small pieces of 8mm (7.96mm actually) ally extrusion to set the sub fences out on my jig to move the bit out by 8mm so it cuts a matching mortise to fit the tenon. With yours, make the standard setup cut a 10x50mm mortise, then slip in a 1mm spacer on either stop for the 8x50, a 6mm spacer for the 8x40, a 7mm spacer for the 6x40 and a 12.5mm spacer for the 5x30.

For the bit extension, make up a setup thingy for bit extension in the collet. Drill an appropriate hole in something stable, I like clear acrylic myself, as deep as you want the bit to stick out, slip the bit into the collet, do it finger tight (but so the bit can still move), push the setup doohickey on there, pushing the bit in to a repeatable depth, tighten the thing up.

For example, drill a 7mm hole into a block of something 30mm deep. Slip the 1/4" bit in, finger tight, push the depth guage over the bit pushing the bit in, tighten it up. Next time, same operation should give you the same bit-collet depth.

I'll have another think, and get back to you. This thing looks interesting enough to have a shot at... :D

[Bodgy]

Thanks Schtoo, your idea re setting the bit depth has merit, obviously to further automate things bit depth must be constant.

I read your thoughts on spacers to give different mortise lengths, but my thinking has moved on a bit today.

What I now want to do with MkII is rather than drilling holes for the stop pins in the MDF base (which will inevitably wear and become sloppy and inaccurate,) is to make several steel bars which will fit over the front where the stop pin holes are now drilled. Say one for Imperial work with holes drilled at 1/2", 3/4", 1 inch stops etc., one for Metric with stops at whatever, and one for the Domino indexed tenon size, as per Lignums earlier post. Assuming the router bit (or Domino cutter head) has been mounted then one just refers to the Index chart for that size.

Setting bit height is easy as the thread on the hieght winder is BSW, 3/8, 16 TPI. I have an inscription on the top of the fence gving 1 x rev = distance raised in Imp and Metric. Start with the router bit cutter just kissing the sliding table and wind away until you reach the required inset from edge of stock.

Gee this is fun

[Schtoo]

I thought about the drilled hole trick for my Mk. I.

Abandoned that after drilling one hole. ;)

I swear by using something that you can measure (and tweak) accurately that just slips into place to give you a dimension. Takes all kinds of error out of possibility, and done correctly, will never wear out.

What about a pin that is on the carriage that bumps against adjustable fences. Slip in an insert to get a set length and lock down the fence. It will cut the right size each time, and is infinitely adjustable if you decide to go with some random mortise length.

I had some extra thoughts on the way home today. Plunge with a plunge bar ala Woodrat, and move the carriage along with another bar. To make your mortise, setup, then plunge with the bar, slide the carriage with another.

To angle mortises, hinge the router on a sub base plate that fixes to the main router stand. Minimizes loss of cut depth. Also make height adjust on the router stand.

Not simple on paper, but I think it should work, and work well. ;)

[scooter]

Bodg, had you thought of a Plungebar setup for the router, would make it easy to vary the plunge depth single-handed.

Attached a pic if you're not familiar with it.

Not sure if one's available for your B&D, not too much to it though... ;)


Cheers...............Sean

[Bodgy]

I wrote a long, detailed response to Schtoo and Scoots points last night, and lost the lot when the servers crashed.

So briefly, Schtoo:

Don't like shims much, not real elegant. The idea of a sliding housing for the stop pins has merit, but may introduce another variable to permit stuff ups. Keep it simple, stupid. (Me not you)
Why did you stop driling?
Angled mortises are not currently in scope
Plunge bar, see below
Mechanical transit for sliding table was considered and I loved the idea but sliding by hand gives more feel.
Bodginator has exact height adjustment. Current model has height scale next to router bit and as its 3/8 BSW, 16 TPI there is a plate on top of fence giving 1 rev in Imperial and Metric. Easiest way is to lower router until bit kisses table, then wind requisite turns for height.

Scoots
Always intended a plunge lever, but it is such a natural action to follow the switch on router, unlock plunge lock, then manually plunge, that it seems uneccesary. Maybe MkII.

[Schtoo]

I stopped drilling because it was a ^*%&^% disaster. In some cases, locating on drilled holes will work fine, but I won't use them though unless it's a dowel pin, and even then, It's not foolproof by a long way.

Shims. I was thinking about this. They may be unelegant, but they work and they are consistant. Most of the decent jigs use them, simply because they give repetable results. Not accurate, just repeatable. The scales on the fences of my jig are not there for anything more than convenience. They certainly are not accurate, and are not needed to be. The shims are what give the repeatable accuracy.

Hence the recommendation to use shims (if you can wangle it) if you are going to use tenon stock that is consistant in size. If you make tenon stock as you need it, then there's no need for repeatability.


It really does depend on how accurate and reliable you want this thing to end up, not how I want it to end up for you. ;)

[craigb]

Okay:
Dominator good but too much $$
Bodgy & Tex want accurate repeatable loose tenons for not many $$
They mount router in horizontal jig with stops
It fast & accurate, Bodgy & Tex happy
onlookers amazed and impressed

Mick:D

OIC

Thanks Mick :)

Bodg and Tex,

It's never going to be as good as the real thing is it?

[derekcohen]

It's never going to be as good as the real thing is it?

I take it that you mean a traditional mortice-and-tenon joint.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Lignum]

I take it that you mean a traditional mortice-and-tenon joint.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I think he means the real thing as in the Domino.

And yes, Domino M&T`s are superior to any hand cut version by a country mile:)

[derekcohen]

Domino M&T`s are superior to any hand cut version by a country mile

I did see the smile, so I know that you were being facetious.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Lignum]

I did see the smile, so I know that you were being facetious.

Regards from Perth

Derek

The smile is their because im happy:) But im 100% serious in what i said. No one, dosnt matter how good they are could get the fit and accuracy of a Domino M&T by doing it by hand. Then their is the time factor which is another story

[derekcohen]

Lignum, I'm just teasing you.:) There will always be some that prefer a machine and others that prefer a hand, some that prefer the traditional and some that accept a modern alternative. They all have their place.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Lignum]

Lignum, I'm just teasing you.:) There will always be some that prefer a machine and others that prefer a hand, some that prefer the traditional and some that accept a modern alternative. They all have their place.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Absoulutly:) Their will always be room for the traditional way.

I just love the ease of it. Just a quick calculation of how many domis i have left tells me i have used around 2400 in the last 3 months:D I think i would have been in the loony bin by now if i had of done that many by hand:rolleyes:

[Bodgy]

OIC

Thanks Mick :)

Bodg and Tex,

It's never going to be as good as the real thing is it?

Well sort of yes and no.

The actual mortises will never be as good as those done by the Domino. I can attest to that as I've just seen some examples of the Donino joins.

However, the machine is better than using a handheld router, biscuit, Domino whatever. Its quicker, once set up and just as, maybe more, accurate than hand held work. So for big, repetitious jobs its better.

What would really kick asre is mounting a Domino in Mk II, along with all the other mods and enhancements such as the electric, foot operated plung mechanism, blantantly stolen from Buffalo.

[Lignum]

Coupla things i was thinking of is the router used. The small 1/4" green bocsh would be great because its cheap and reliable and more importantly you can seperate it from the base and from memory has around a 40mm dia end so you could clamp it directly into the Bodginator fence if you want. The Domi is only around 450 watts so power isnt an issue if you have the right cutters and maybe a side to side action built in. Which brings me to my next thought.

Their must be a way the router mounted, can travel side to side on some form of bearing support and an off set cam araingment. A bit like a fret saw laying on its side? it would only have to move back and foward slow. and would only need a tiny motor to power. If you could achieve that (and two blokes with your brains surley must be able to do that;) ) it would give you the same results as an inverted Domi.

And the main thought is with the cutters, if you machined up just "one" shank with the 6mm thread that is permantly mounted in the router, then u could use the 4 Domi cutters:D The advantage their apart from the quality is the speed and ease you can swap them over AND the extra travel needed, also the thread going in the opposite direction to the router means it is impossible to come lose and you will have the "exact" same depth "every" time.


Have fun on the weekend refining the BODGINATOR tm :D :D :D

[Lignum]

However, the machine is better than using a handheld router, biscuit, Domino whatever. Its quicker, once set up and just as, maybe more, accurate than hand held work. So for big, repetitious jobs its better.



The speed/accuracy is one of the main strengths of Domi. Its completly different to using a biscuit joiner.

The whole accuracy thing is based on the machine sitting on top of the timber and at 3.2kg it means the distance between center of cut and the top of the timber is spot on all the time every time. The Bodginator will have the timber "face" underneath to achieve the same results, so you will need something to make sure the timber if it has a bow or warp is sitting as flat as possible on the table to insure the repetitive accuracy.

And also, two retractable spring loaded index pins on the machine and on the add on adjustable wings are crucial to the accuracy. The pin is used hard up againsed the timber as the first reference for the first cut then its inserted into the mortice and the next cut is made. Very, very fast and accurate. Thats why im thinking you do away with the traditional stops and have some sliding pins built in to the Bodginator fence

[Sturdee]

Absoulutly:) Just a quick calculation of how many domis i have left tells me i have used around 2400 in the last 3 months


And that is the crux of the matter why you wax so lyrically about the domino. On average you used 26 dominoes a day so the capital cost has been amortised so far at 50c a domino and if you keep your use up at that rate for 2 years it would come done to 6 c a domino.


BUT not everybody is in the same position as I would be lucky to do 26 MT joints a year so this whole debate of the Domino versus a router or small mortice machine or biscuits is like the debates on a Triton Workcentre versus one of Felder's saws. Yes one is better than the other but not necessarily cost effective for most.

These kinds of debates whilst they may be interesting to the zealots is boring to the majority of users who could not justify the costs involved.

So get of your soapbox.:mad:


Peter.

[Lignum]

:)

[Sturdee]

Lignum,

That was a typical but not unexpected response.

Instead of a reasoned rebuttal you reverted to an insulting personal attack which I don't appreciate.

Maybe I've been here too long but I am sick and tired of people that play the man rather than debate the issue.


Peter.

[Auld Bassoon]

If the Bodginator can be made better by Tex and Bodgy by using a Domi cutter (thanks to some genorisity :)), then that's great.

Big changes often bring about strong feelings, but I like to think that we woodies are big enough kids to handle that... :D :) :D

BTW, using the Domi is, for me, not really about economics (although it certainly helps with a piece such as my current commission, one item of which has >200 mortices), but the satisfaction of getting the joinery so right so easily. Just like hand tools, but without the amount of practice required.

[Tex B]

OK guys. Back to topic.

Sorry to be silent, had to work (conference in Cairns for the week, but hey, someone had to do it).

I've never used a domino, and look forward to trying one some day.

However, I have used the bodginator. I like all the comments and suggestions, and think Bodgy and I can do better with that help.

Yes, the original thoughts came about from my inability to properly cut tenons without stuffing up at least one shoulder along the way, and from rereading an Oct 2002 FWW with an article about floating tenon joinery, and some of the great things the domino users had to say. So I figured, if we could make a tool that would allow me to make consistent, straight, square, strong joints, then surely anyone could do it. :)

The current version cut a heap of mortices with repeatable accuracy in a very short time, and I glued it, clamped it, and buggered off to FNQ for the week. Saved me at least a weekend, maybe two, of cutting mortises, cutting tenons, fiddling with the tenons to fit the mortices, etc etc.

When working on a 'proper' piece of furniture, instead of a shop cabinet, I would definitely take more time, and put the 'front' face down on every joint. In the test, we centered the mortice to make as many as possible on one setup, though it turned out we still needed two setups. And it was a bit difficult to exactly center the mortice, particularly as each work piece was not exactly the same width (again, my poor skill, or actually, my lack of expensive equipment like even a thicknesser). If each mortice were made with' front' face down, then the distance from the mortice to the 'front' face would be identical each time, even if the mortice were off center. I assume a domino works on the same principle.

With a scale or two either side of the router, it should be possible to fix the stop block at identical locations, on either side of the router, with repeatable precision. So to start a mortice 20mm from the end of the stile, and another 20mm from the top of the rail, can be done accurately even if there is some other setup in between. I plan to make this mod to the current model over the weekend, and just need to be able to adjust somehow for different bit sizes.

It would not be difficult to cut the mortise in two or three passes. The router is set up with stops to do just that. It would take a bit more time, and would not be as elegant, but I think it is the way to go with tougher timber. I'm with Bodgy that it is far easier to just plunge the router than to rig up another table to slide on the Y axis. With the last job, I just kept a close eye on the bit and slowed when it started to bend a little. Ended up moving about 1mm per second, and the bit was smoking a little after about 30 mortices.

I also think I have been over-engineering tenons for some time. It is fairly easy to cut a thick tenon, perhaps easier than cutting a thin one, and probably easier to drill and chisel a thicker mortice than a thin one, so I suspect that has something to do with making tenons 1/3 the thickness rule of thumb I have been using for years. This shop cabinet will have a 65kg table saw sitting on it, and we used 6mm tenons, but I suspect it will hold up without any trouble.

Very interesting thoughts on this, though. Thanks to all for their advice.

Tex

[niki]

Tex and Bodgy
Have a look at this:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=37243
And this:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=37602
It may trigger some ideas.

[Lignum]

Tex and Bodgy
Have a look at this:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=37243
And this:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=37602
It may trigger some ideas.

Long time no see Niki:D where have you been, we miss seeing your great work like that great jig. Tell us a bit more about it in relation to the Bodginator;)

[Sturdee]

Lignum,

That was a typical but not unexpected response.

Instead of a reasoned rebuttal you reverted to an insulting personal attack which I don't appreciate.

Maybe I've been here too long but I am sick and tired of people that play the man rather than debate the issue.


Peter.


and


Latest Reputation Received : from Lignum with the comment " Dikhead :) "


Peter.

[Bodgy]

The final and working version of the prototype is complete.

Major mods include a full length track with two sliding knobs to act as the final stops. We found the stop pins were a little limiting as they were set to the holes one drilled. The track is infinitely variable. Also the pins would work loose in their holes after continual work

The pointer for the front rule was redone in steel and secured by those screw inserts into the MDF. Mainly to give more strength as it bumps up against the stops, and also cause the previous brass on was too slim and stopped the knobs turning when setting up a short mortise. Steel looks better too with the alloy and ss.

Tex sought a 2nd morgage on the ranch and bought a solid carbide 8mm spiral, two flute, upcut bit. It cuts beautifully and one can cut a 22mm deep mortise in 1 plunge if you traverse slowly.

We made both a larger wooden main stop block and a larger clamp for the sliding table.

I enhanced the router plunge lock knob so that it was easier to reach for release, simply by putting a bolt thru the knobs centre

I haven't yet tried the festool domino cutter Lignum generously sent, as (naturally) the thread is not standard (metric fine I think) and I'll need access to a lathe to cut the holder. Looking at it's design, I think it may have some difficulty plungeing to the full depth. We'll see.

So, end of story. It works, is fast, accurate and efficient. Couple of hundred $ and about a days work.

If anyones planning to use floating tenon joinery, and has a lot of mortises to cut (ie a set of chairs) both Tex and I would recommend you consider making one.

I commend the Bodginator to the House.

[Andy Mac]

Well done again Bodgy and Tex. Its a top looking bit of kit now, and has me thinking...:D

Cheers,

[Auld Bassoon]

Great bit of kit guys!

Now if you were to spiff it up, and have some plastic injection mouldings made instead of the wooden pieces, you could flog it to the world for heaps :D

[Schtoo]

Steve, not injection moldings, ally castings.

Right Bodgy? ;)


Actually, I saw something the other day that had me really thinking. Ally castings would be very useful for lots of these jigs and things, and I do have the means to produce almost any casting I wish, within size limits (of about 4kg in weight).

I think I am going to include a lot more castings in future jigs because it's cheap, solid, tough and looks as slick as snot. :D

So, there you go Bodgy and Tex, ally castings for Mk. III.

After all, you do have a milling machine right there. ;)

[tashammer]

THere is something so much nicer, cosier, campfireish, about building something oneself out of what one can find. It's the sort of thing where you can look at it, then look at each other and go "Yes!", grin and then have an ale and feel really good. Ya can't get that from a commercial product.

Good on both of you!


apropos of nothing in particular. if you can ever get hold of old wooden school desks, the legs are lovely to make tool handles out of.

and a washing machine motor is good for the sharpening system. (i made one some time ago and it worked a treat - used one of the better motors tefc type).

[Tex B]

Er, due to, uh, my usual ready fire aim approach, had to cut down the band saw cabinet I made with the bodginator. :o As luck would have it, I cut directly through the bottom tenons.

This does provide an opportunity to have a look inside the floating tenon joint, and the two pics are attached. Timber is undressed, unjointed, Studley/E Mac hardwood straight off the pallet.

Bit more gap than the domino joints I've seen (thanks Lignum) and probably says something about my tenon cutting skills again. :o But I figure it gives the glue somewhere to go.

Tex

[Lignum]

Bodge, here is a pic of the Domino cutters. See the 5mm cutter how it curves at the base and the other three are straight and allow a full 28mm cut.

[Bodgy]

Thanks Ligs

I should have the holding rod turned down to 8mm and the thread cut this week (if anyones interested, the Festool thread is a bit weird, 6M, 0.75 pitch) thanks to Karl and his playroom.

If the cutter you donated has legs, then I'm sure the larger ones are available separately. We'll have a go at them.

Incidentally the solid carbide 8mm spiral upcut will be hard to beat. Single plunge to 22mm in solid Spotted Gum, 50mm mortice length, no worries.

[Bob38S]

Have followed the evolution of the "bodginator" with great interest.
Congrats on a job well done.

Perhaps the Lightburn Zeta couldn't take on the automotive world but the "bodginator" provides a woody on a budget a viable alternative.

Bob
:D:):D

[Lignum]

I'm sure the larger ones are available separately. We'll have a go at them.


The 8mm is $51 and 10mm $54 How dose that compare to the 8mm Tex purchased? You can get them from Anthony at Idealtools.com

I have used the 10mm constantly every day for around 3 months in tough hardwood and it appears to be as sharp as the day i first used it. Very good vaue. Also the design of the cutter is different, im thinking that is to accomodate the lateral force as well as the plunge

[Bodgy]

About the same $$.

As you say the only question is how it will cope with the traverse after a single 20mm plunge.

We'll see

Thanks Bob, it was a good result for a couple of hackers.

[Rocker]

Bodgy,

I am not clear as to why you feel it necessary to rout the mortice in a single plunge, rather than making two or three passes. Making the cut in a single pass may work OK for Spotted Gum, but I would be very surprised if you were able to do it with blackwood. I normally make three passes when cutting a mortice on my jig, cutting away about 6-8 mm of waste with each pass. I doubt if this takes any longer than cutting the mortice in a single pass would, and it certainly puts much less strain on the bit.

Rocker

[Bodgy]

Rocky

Its for reasons of efficiency we only want a single plunge. You certainly could cut the mortices in 3 goes, and yes it would obviously be easier on the bit.

Point is Tex and I designed the thing with jobs requiring multiple and repeated moticing, such as a set of chairs. Sort of production line.

The big plus is the short time it takes to cut these mortices.

If we were to make three cuts per mortice, then the beauty of the thing goes out the window, it would still be quicker than other methods but the 'killer' feature goes.

You're probably right about having to make 3 goes at very hard wood (mind you Spotted Gum ain't Balsa) but whilst we can get away with it, we'll stick with the single plunge. Thats what the exxy carbide bit has allowed us to do so far.

[Rocker]

Bodgy,

I have just been out to the shed to try a comparative experiment cutting an 8 mm wide by 22 mm deep by 50 mm long mortice in jarrah with a spiral bit. I cut the mortice in 30 seconds using three passes, and another the same size in 20 seconds using a single pass. But the one using the single pass had a lower quality of cut because the cuttings were not removed. This is OK with Jarrah and Spotted gum; but, with Blackwood, it would almost certainly cause a fire, since the blackwood cuttings smoulder unless removed more or less between passes. My point is that the ten seconds that you save by making just a single pass is hardly worth straining the bit and possibly causing a fire. Even if you have 100 mortices to cut, the extra 10 seconds on each is only going to amount to 16 minutes more time spent.

Rocker

[Tex B]

Thanks Rocker. That's good data.

Bodgy and I are both after efficiency, and it sounds like I was wrong thinking one pass would be more efficient than two or three. Also on one attempt, thought I smelled some burning, but I put it down to the curling smoke rings from Bodgy's pipe, or the neighbor's pig being roasted on the open spit. However, after reading your post it struck me that there was no pig, no pit, and no pipe. Hmmm.

Have to work on our technique some more.


Tex

[Bodgy]

You make a good point Rocks.

My Seppo colleague and I will get the stop watches out and give it a go at the next Bodgy Enterprizes shareholders meeting

[Auld Bassoon]

Bodgy,

with Blackwood, it would almost certainly cause a fire, since the blackwood cuttings smoulder unless removed more or less between passes.
Rocker

I've noticed that even bandsawing some blackwood, especially resawing 140mm boards, that there's often a bit (not a lot, but visible nonetheless) smoke issuing forth. I've taken to having a peek in the cabinet after each cut, and to sweeping out and dust that the D/C hasn't picked up.

What is a slight worry is that a smouldering chip might get sucked up by the D/C and deposited in the bag containing several kilos of fine wood dust :eek:

[Rocker]

Steve,

I think there is something about the cellular structure of blackwood that makes the cuttings prone to smoulder, or even catch fire. With jarrah, the cuttings, when routing or on the table-saw, seem to be flaky or powdery, but with blackwood they tend to be long and fibrous. This seems to cause burning far more easily than with most other woods.

Getting back to the question of one pass or three, when routing mortices, I think the crucial point is that the quality of cut is much better with three passes, because the bit is not having to contend with a mass of cuttings as well as cutting the solid wood.

Rocker