machinery for building acoustics

[gratay]

Ok , my budget is very tight so....
I"ve been looking at some tools at the moment and wondering what people are using for acoustic guitar making as far as table saw,band saw, and jointer...
Some things I'm considering are
carbetec 6" benchtop jointer...the table is only 760mm but its $250 which appeals to my pocket at the moment
triton powered table saw w/184mm power saw is only $200 but depth of cut is only 50mm which may be ok...mainly will be used for fret slots and mortise and tenon on the neck
band saw like hafco entry level model around $300 height capacity is around 100mm

does anyone have any experience with these machines .....
I have been considering just using hand tools mainly but the price of these machines has got me wondering.....i could easily spend more than $250 on a good jointing hand plane for instance ?
thanks for any info

[kiwigeo]

Okay in order of usefulness (IMO):

Most useful

1. router (at least 1). Ive got 4.
2. bandsaw..as big as you can afford. Ive got a carbatec 14" but often wish I had a 16".
3. Dremel tool and accesories.

Useful but you can happily get by without them

4. router table. easiest way to put in truss rod channels.
5. table saw.
6. thickness sander....not essential but saves a bit of elbow grease when working down tops, sides and backs.
7. belt/disk sander...handy for working bone saddles, nuts etc.
8. jointer...handy for working neck stock but I cant justify buying one.
9. thicknesser....no use for one (sorry Stuart:D ).

My best advice..if youre really tight for cash get 1 and 2 and spend rest on good hand tools.

Essential Hand tools:

1. some decent paring chisels and water stones to sharpen same.
2. block plane
3. #3 or #4 bench plane
4. cabinet scrapers and gear to prepare edges of same.
5. Jointing plane (good for shooting top before gluing up same)


Cheers Martin

[kiwigeo]

Re cutting fret slots....do it by hand if youre tight for cash.

M and T joints....you can either cut these by hand (tricky) or use a router and jig (it's what I use for my steel strings).

[gratay]

thanks martin,
So far i have,
Drill press w/ drum sanders and a safe-t-planer.( which i thought a drill press coupled with add ons becomes quite handy as it has )
router
belt and disc sander


everything else i have is hand tools
japanese saws
chisels
honing guides and stones
scrapers
etc

but i guess my main interest in the 3 tools i mentioned was which will be the most useful and which can you really do without? my guess is more than likely a bandsaw will be very useful for a number of things ( but what about coping saw for this?).....and a jointer would make truing up stock so much easier as i have minimal experience with hand planes....but am happy to do it that way.

cheers grant

[Jackspira]

Its different for everyone I know, But I've got on fine without a jointer or a table saw, so I'd be inclined to spend all the money on a bandsaw! a big bandsaw!!
I think Martins right, you can cut the fretslots by hand, and I add that I think its just as good to setup the bandsaw to cut mortise and tenon joints.
Mm a router is very usefull though...maybe a router too. Bandsaw and router
Jack

[gratay]

when you mean big bandsaw.....you talking about depth of cut or motor power being an issue?
14" start at around $300 and up to around $800-900

even a lot of the 14" bandsaws I've been looking at have such different specs like depth of cut can be anywhere from 125mm to 200mm

I may have to snoop around the working with wood expo this weekend and see what deals people are doing

whats the bandsaw you have jack?

[Jackspira]

Hi Grant, sorry if that message was a bit confusing! All I really meant to say was that if its a choice between those three machines, then I reckon a bandsaw would be more usefull to the extent that it might be worth getting one good bandsaw instead of three smaller/ cheaper machines.
On second thought though you might be right to get a small saw.
Bearing in mind what Martin said about occasionally wishing his 14" saw was a 16". I had one of those taiwanese 14" saws for many years and it was great, could do just about anything except resaw backs and tops. Eventually I saved up and got a 3hp machine with a 20" wheel, which can do all the resawing I ever need, I even used it to thickness tele bodies before I could afford a thicknesser, so pretty close to 13" deep cut.
I found that this bigger saw was a bit awkward for the 80% of general work that I do so I got a small three wheeler, which was ok for a while, but now I've got a small two wheel saw that I got from carbatec, maybe similar to the one you were looking at. Its only wee, sits on a benchtop. I think the wheel is about 200mm diameter. Its great! It has a pretty good proper induction motor, not one of those horrible high speed screaming commutator motors.It can do just about everything for an acoustic, cut up bindings, cut out blocks, necks. It could cut tenons if needed. My point being (sorry to take the long way to get to the point!) that the little saw can do just about everything I used the old 14" saw for, except for the resawing which the 14" saw couldn't do anyway! So maybe the small saw you're thinking is a good idea...
...on the other hand, those 14" saws are really good....its amazing what it could cope with (sawing pun:D )
hope that clarifies a bit...
Jack

[contrebasse]

So far on my double bass I have used not many power tools at all. I prefer a bit of elbow grease to a lot of noise and dust.

- triton bench and circular saw for building the moulds.
- a power jig saw and fine fret saw for cutting outlines.
- variety of hand planes for thicknessing the sides and flattening the top
- gouges and thumb planes for carving (you wouldn't need this for a flattop guitar)
- dozuki for all sorts of things
- a few sheets of sandpaper and some scrapers

recently i acquired a bandsaw and it is useful, especially for cutting wedges, clamps, jigs etc as well as outlines. I used it to slice my purfling into strips - would have been quite hard by hand.

for jointing the tops I used a number 4 bailey plane and chalk. http://z4.invisionfree.com/Double_Bass/index.php?showtopic=3 (http://z4.invisionfree.com/Double_Bass/index.php?showtopic=3)

I managed very well without a heavy expensive jointing plane and got excellent results on a piece of wood much bigger than a guitar top!

On the whole, I think you can do very well with a minimum of power tools. Spend your money on some nice blades and nice wood!

[gratay]

cheers jack,
thanks for the advice......although it would be great to be able to buy billets and resaw myself I just need to get the first cab off the rank first and later down the track look at all the other options..... I kinda thought a bandsaw capable of that would cost a bit considering the depth of cut needed .... I imagine at least 16" bandsaw would be needed and even then may or may not be able to cope with resawing.
So initially I will have to buy soundboards, backs and side material already roughly to size ......although i imagine it would be a lot cheaper to buy billets and resaw. I'll concentrate on the build process first.....as there is a lot of things to consider when starting out.
Is it one of those little sheppach 8" bench jobbies you using ? ....I looked at one of those when at carbatec last week .....they look well made..

[gratay]

So far on my double bass I have used not many power tools at all. I prefer a bit of elbow grease to a lot of noise and dust.

- triton bench and circular saw for building the moulds.
- a power jig saw and fine fret saw for cutting outlines.
- variety of hand planes for thicknessing the sides and flattening the top
- gouges and thumb planes for carving (you wouldn't need this for a flattop guitar)
- dozuki for all sorts of things
- a few sheets of sandpaper and some scrapers

recently i acquired a bandsaw and it is useful, especially for cutting wedges, clamps, jigs etc as well as outlines. I used it to slice my purfling into strips - would have been quite hard by hand.

for jointing the tops I used a number 4 bailey plane and chalk. http://z4.invisionfree.com/Double_Bass/index.php?showtopic=3 (http://z4.invisionfree.com/Double_Bass/index.php?showtopic=3)

I managed very well without a heavy expensive jointing plane and got excellent results on a piece of wood much bigger than a guitar top!

On the whole, I think you can do very well with a minimum of power tools. Spend your money on some nice blades and nice wood!
Thanks for the input......I have been following your build and its going very well ...although i haven't been able to see the pictures for some reason on my computer but have been eagerly reading your posts......

and like you so far i have been building all my jigs with circular saw and jig saw and added a few things like a drill press w/ drum sander to get the template shape for the mold and then routed the rest of the mold pieces with a flush cut bit..
I did buy a Dozuki as well because i thought it would come in very handy for cutting the sides at the neck and heel and also because it has a kerf of 0.45mm its pretty right for fret slots even though i have been considering a table saw i think i will do at least the first by hand....
I did get some japanese stones and a veritas honing guide which has worked great on my chisels ....i have been looking for some old planes but haven't come across any yet....i want a #5 or 6 jack plane for jointing and i think the little brass lie-nielson block plane looks good value....so mainly hand tools appeals to me also.....plus its a space issue for me as well
cheers

[kiwigeo]

I did buy a Dozuki as well because i thought it would come in very handy for cutting the sides at the neck and heel and also because it has a kerf of 0.45mm its pretty right for fret slots even though i have been considering a table saw i think i will do at least the first by hand....
I did get some japanese stones and a veritas honing guide which has worked great on my chisels ....i have been looking for some old planes but haven't come across any yet....i want a #5 or 6 jack plane for jointing and i think the little brass lie-nielson block plane looks good value....so mainly hand tools appeals to me also.....plus its a space issue for me as well
cheers

Grant, double check the width of that saw carefully before you use it on a fret job. Run a caliper over fret tang and saw to make sure the saw is good for the job. Personally I'd get a fret saw and keep it just for fret work rather than use a saw that is used for other work.

Lie Nielsen planes are great but I think the Veritas equivalents are a bit cheaper.

Cheers Martin

[contrebasse]

Thanks for the input......I have been following your build and its going very well ...although i haven't been able to see the pictures for some reason on my computer but have been eagerly reading your posts.

have a look in your browser settings. In firefox under the Options/Content tabe theres a setting "load images" check that, but uncheck "for originating site only" that migh fix it. My images are hosted on another site.

What i found is that you learn as you go what tools you need. So don't buy up too much at the start. When you get to the "x" job, ask a luthier what they use for doing "x" and they'll tell you what the best tool is. Then go to Carbatec!

Matthew

[gratay]

martin,
I may do that because it is a 240mm dozuki and could be quite clumsy for fret slots although i felt it had the right kerf as i measured the martin style fretwire tang at around 0.75-0.8mm.....maybe 0.45 might be to tight especially in ebony..seems most fretsaws are around .5-.6mm

the bronze low angle block plane direct from lie-nielsen in australia sells for $149 and instead of the bronze you can get it in a normal iron for $119 which i thought was pretty good......i saw a thread on the OLF seems like a lot of those guys are using this plane ....i thought being lie-nielsen i would be more expensive ....but its only a little squirt
grant

[kiwigeo]

$149 sounds very reasonable....I thought they were alot more expensive.

[Paul B]

I have an 18" Jet bandsaw, it's invaluable. I want to get a decent table saw and jointer too but these are not essential, nor is the bandsaw really but it does make a lot of jobs much easier. Buy as big a one as you can afford.

If I was going to choose between my bandsaw and my thickness sander I'd choose the thickness sander from a time saving standpoint. Luckily sanders are pretty easy to build yourself, I think mine cost me about $120 to build.

I use a stanley #5 jack plane for jointing plates I find it much easier to use than my smaller planes.

[gratay]

i may have to look into how you go about building a thicknesser for that sort of money..
for now i just bought a safe-t-planer but i don't think i'll try soundboards through it...
cheers paul

[Paul B]

I was lucky I was able to scrounge most of the parts. I got a 3HP motor from a vacuum pump that had died, likewise I pulled the shaft and pillow blocks from a junk pile where I was working at the time. So I only had to buy pullys and have one machined to fit the motor, bought a belt, a piano hinge and some 90-45 framing timber. The table top was some scrounged 32mm mdf that a local factory had put out on the side of the road with a sign that said "free". Add a few other bits of hardware and the total was close to $120, maybe a bit less if anything.

[contrebasse]

i may have to look into how you go about building a thicknesser for that sort of money ... for now i just bought a safe-t-planer but i don't think i'll try soundboards through it...
cheers paul

It was much easier planing thin stock with a hand plane than I thought it would be, and very satisfying. And cheap. Got my ribs down to 2mm with no difficulty at all and could have gone thinner. Need to find a secure way of clamping the stock to the bench.

How thick are guitar ribs? 1.5mm???

[kiwigeo]

How thick are guitar ribs? 1.5mm???

Generally around 2mm or slightly less on my classicals and steel strings. Thats for Indian Rosewood. Exact final thickness depends on each piece of wood. I test for "floppiness" as Im working to final thickness with the cabinet scraper.

[Paul B]

I generally take my sides down to around 0.085", around 2.2mm.

Not so hard to do with a hand plane until you get into figured woods, then you start getting tear-out. Easier, and you get a better result just bunging it through the thickness sander.

[Jackspira]

It was much easier planing thin stock with a hand plane than I thought it would be, and very satisfying. And cheap.
I agree, hand planing is a good way of thicknessing. Maybe a better learning experience for a beginer than making a thicknessing machine?? hard to say which skill is more valuable for a guitar maker! using a plane or making home made machines...
As an aside, I read an article by John Grevin a while ago. He had a picture of a thicknessing setup using a router. I've had a search on the web but can't find the image.
The router was suspended on a simple frame of rails that allowed it to run up and down and sideways over a guitar sized plate of wood. The wood was stuck to a board under the router. The thickness was set by lowering the router ( plunge router). It looked kind of unlikly, but if it worked ( John greven reckoned it did) then it would be very fast, good for figured wood, and reasonably simple and cheap to setup.
I'll have a look through old magazines and see if I can find it
jack

[Paul B]

Here's a pic of a router thicknesser made by Craig Holden (of CT Holden Luthiery and Supplies). Looks a lot easier to make than a thickness sander. I think he uses vacuum to hold the work piece down.

http://luthiersforum.3element.com/forum/useruploads/ctholden/2006-03-18_222148_P1010018.jpg

[Jackspira]

Thats just like it, thanks paul!

[gratay]

I think i 'd have more luck working on my planing skills than electrocuting myself mucking around with motors......but the router thicknesser looks like an interesting idea.......
the vaccum idea would be great on a bench for a number of other things as well like holding down fingerboards for planing .

cheers for the photo paul its given me an idea about how to make a sled to make some radius sanding dishes

I just came back from the www show.....
got myself a small metabo bandsaw ...looks really well made compared to some of the chinese ones .....its one of those little induction motor ones ...

and Jack also rivergum timbers had a stand ...they had some nice looking veneers.....

[Paul B]

I don't know for sure having never used one, but I suspect that you'd have to spend a fair bit of time with the sanding board to true up any surface you'd thicknessed with the router thicknesser. It does work, but there's more manual labour (sanding) than if you use a thickness sander. But you'd get a better result with this than trying to plane figured boards where you are going to be planeing against the grain wether you want to or not.

Horses for courses.....

[gratay]

I don't know for sure having never used one, but I suspect that you'd have to spend a fair bit of time with the sanding board to true up any surface you'd thicknessed with the router thicknesser. It does work, but there's more manual labour (sanding) than if you use a thickness sander. But you'd get a better result with this than trying to plane figured boards where you are going to be planeing against the grain wether you want to or not.

Horses for courses.....

let me clarify.....I am going to make some radius sanding dishes to sand the rims of the body to somewhere around 25' for the top and 15' for the back before gluing the tops and backs on.....these dishes will also be the base of the go-bar deck for gluing the bracing onto the face and back.

The photo you posted has a sled (same concept) to what i have to make except the rails will have to have the 25' and 15' radius to be able to route the dishes...so timber rails with a radius that the router can run along.

sorry my last post wasn't very clear...i was thinking two different things at once...I'll edit what i was trying to say

[Paul B]

Sorry, didn't realise wires got crossed somewhere. But if you think a bit about it before you build, you could make the rails interchangable so that you could use some curved ones for making your dishes, and then have some straight ones you can slot in there for thicknessing your plates. Getting a couple of uses out of the one jig would really put you ahead of the competition.

Also, if you use a 30' radius for your tops instead of 25' the neck joint will go much much easier. Trust me, it'll all line up with bugger-all neck setting fuss.

[contrebasse]

Don't you just love the shrill scream of a router ...

[kiwigeo]

let me clarify.....I am going to make some radius sanding dishes to sand the rims of the body to somewhere around 25' for the top and 15' for the back before gluing the tops and backs on.....these dishes will also be the base of the go-bar deck for gluing the bracing onto the face and back.



See OLF website for plans for a router jig to make these radiused forms.

I ended up buying the forms from LMI as I dont have alot of time for jig making at the moment.

[alanw]

I'm looking at buying a Hafco Woodmaster BP-16A bandsaw, and wondered if anyone has good or bad experiences with this saw.
It seems, on paper, to be good value. I want to use it to resaw tops and backs for acoustic guitars, which the 9in depth of cut seems to make possible - with the right blade.

[boatchippy]

I've mostly used hand tools for all the fine shaping.
Power tools and machines used are: 4" grinder with sanding disc for all the rough shaping, 18" hyco bandsaw, big router with 1/2" collar, little makita trimmer, scroll saw, drill press with bobbin sanders. I use a 12" scm tablesaw with 72 tooth blade to dress edges prior to laminating.
Wouldn't mind investing in a drum sander, especially for figured grained wood and rosettes.

[Strungout]

See OLF website for plans for a router jig to make these radiused forms.

.

What is the "OLF" site.

Thanks Greg

[gratay]

here you go......very helpful informative bunch

http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/default.asp

[old_picker]

Get good quality 14" bandsaw and router these are the most usefull big machines. Table saw? well you can get by without one and a table saw is a very dangerous animal. It will throw large bits of wood at 60 miles an hour directly at your face

Yes I agree with the elbow grease brigade its nice to use handpower but I have spent most of my working life as a pro craftsman [30 years] and my back, elbows and shoulders are r@@ted So bear that in mind when your are selecting those work saving power tools.

The 14" deluxe jet BS has a 1 1/3 hp motor with a cast iron frame and wheels. With a 6" riser block and the right blade you can resaw most hardwoods. You can get it for under $900.00. Get a powermatic if you can afford the extra $200.

I use a cheap GMC 1200 watt router which is pretty ok. It has nice handgrips a trigger start and speed control. The depth controls are pretty crap. Even so I have done quite a few bodies with this tool.

I recently bought a triton 1400 and it is very nice but it doesn't have a trigger and it has to be manually switched off. If a cut goes wrong it takes longer to shut down the machine. The hand grips are not as comfortable as the old GMC but the depth controls are first rate and it is a very smooth tool well worth the $290.00 price tag. Dont ever move the router out of a job until the bit stops spinning. Every job that has gone wrong was directly because I lifted the tool off a job while the bit was spinning.

Your first project should be to build a table or make a spot on your work bench to mount your router,

Also a lot of what routers are about is getting the right bits and I would include here the best quality bits available. I like carbitool and the italian ones you get from carbatec. Very nice. Cheap bits are not worth buying either from a quality or safety stand point.

Oh and one more point about the router. It is a screaming high speed finger masher and body wrecker. Read up on safety with routers and do plenty of practise runs before you taclkle that expensive piece of curly maple.

The bandsaw is one of the safer machines but still you gotta be mindful and have total 100% attention on what you are doing.

The dremel is also very usefull as are handplane #4, a cabinet scraper [saves much sanding] a random orbital sander and some good rasps and chisels

When I started out buying toosl I wiah I had have asked your question as it would have saved me a lot of money in tools I bought that have had limited use.

[gratay]

well thats right ray...so many ways to skin a cat as far as guitar making goes so some people swear by tools that others probably wouldn't use...
either way it all adds up to an expensive but very satisfying hobby.

They had the 14"jet at the woodshow for $6-795 can't remember which but was an absolute bargain but i don't know if all the things like fences were extra or not but was a good price anyway....

whenever i start looking at expensive machinery i just refer back to the william cumpiano/natelson book at their tool list....and it usually knocks the sense back into me

[contrebasse]

The bandsaw is one of the safer machines but still you gotta be mindful and have total 100% attention on what you are doing.

I have my daughters trained so that they know that when a machine is operating, even if they ask me something, I will ignore them until I have finished. I have had too many stuffups and near-misses by allowing myself to be interrupted!

If I'm using the plane or the gouge they can stop me whenever they like!

[Malibu]

A wise man CB... We have around 15 bandsaws at work and I shudder when I see people operating them; brains off and going hell-for-leather.
I caused an uproar when I had the OH&S department put a stop to people using cotton gloves while using them. The workers didn't want to get their hands dirty when using the bandsaws, so they'd wear white gloves and they kicked up a stink when gloves were banned. Only when I nudged a glove into the blade where it snagged on the blade and disappeared, closely followed by my question "How'd you like your hand to have been in that glove?" did they listen to my rantings. :D

[Malibu]

To throw in my two-bob's worth Gratay:
I regularly use the luxuries such as: drop saw, circular saw and bench (table) saw, I could get away with a good handsaw for those. I'm building a thickness drum sander, but could also thickness by hand with a plane and sanding block.
Some things I couldn't do without would be a good set of chisels, although only a couple would do nicely. Definately a good plane! A router is a time saver and although most things can be done the "old fashioned way", a router is probably the most used tool I have. A bench grinder is up among the things that don't get used much, but when you need one, you NEED one! Try sharpening a chisel with a file! :rolleyes:
I've done without a bandsaw so far, but it's probably one of those things that I'll wonder how I ever lived without one, once I get time to make one!
Old picker said it right about routers too.. they are one mean and unforgiving piece of equipment that I rate up with chainsaws on the "One slip and your history" scale!! Use with caution and the best modus operandi is "If it feels unsafe, it probably is"
Hope this helps a bit :)

[contrebasse]

One of my employees tried to rout the edge off a door. He leaned the door against a chair, used a G clamp to clamp a 2x1 fence to the router. All went OK until he hit a nail, slipped, his thumb went into the blade ... and he went off to get microsurgery. And made a bloody mess all over the studio floor.

Hey we should start an "accidents I have known" thread!!!!!!!!

[Malibu]

Nails.. the curse of wizzy-wirry things and the arch enemy carbide tips!
Hey, I like your idea of an "accidents I have known" thread CB... I'm sure we've all known of a few hair-raisers that would be interesting enough to show the "here's how you DON'T do it!" part of our hobby! Kind of an extension of my TV Lifestyle show thread. :D

[Jackspira]

Hey we should start an "accidents I have known" thread!!!!!!!!


Oh Yes!! I love gory stories!
Routers, and scraping bits of finger off the wall etc!
They surely have value as cautionary tales too?!

Jack

[gratay]

heres one to start with from one of the other topics on this forum


http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=40521

[Malibu]

That's gotta hurt! :eek: