A boating progression [Archive]

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dopeydriver

24th October 2006, 10:25 PM

As a youngster I spent a lot of time in the bush , camping and hiking , culminating in a walk from Harrietville , over the heights and down to Harrietville in July , on my own.
At 21 I was doing more bush work in SVN , a bit more of a hostile surrounding !.
After that I spent 20 something years working in the bush with horses and ponies , including trekking in Vic ,WA and the left coast of the USA.
For the last 4 years I've included working offsider on bullock teams , even driving a team up to the front of Parliament house in Victoria , as well as the horse work , teaching driving , and training.
I've decided for a change , I want to work in the wet stuff , instead of kicking dust .
I'd like to sneak around the coast , discover more of this great country.
But first I have to learn the caper of sailing !.
My belief is , or has been that I start with the PDR , then go to the GIS , then step up to something bigger.
But now I'm wondering , why not stop at the GIS ?.I'm in no hurry , couldn't I sneak around with this ?.
I'm used to a little adversity , if the boat is up to it , and I learn the caper well , I believe I'd be up to it still .
Any comment ?.
Rob J.

Wild Dingo

25th October 2006, 06:13 PM

Well you could... if you wont mind bein totally cramped uncomfortable and phissed of most of the time... these little boats such as the GIS and such are a bloody hoot for a few hours a weekend maybe but for live aboard what the yanks call "gunkholing" for weeks at a time up and down rivers along the coast etc all inshore sailing I wouldnt... Id consider a Wharram 21 to be the minimum for extended weeks at a time coastal sailing... some would argue that a Wharram is a peice of crap without any good vices but I know of 2 blokes who have sailed theres all round Europe one ven across the atlantic... so it can be done

And the thing with them is they can go anywhere! need only a few inches of water under their keels and a bit of wind and are also trailerable (note if you look through the Wharram site theres a link to a bloke whos built a trailer specifically for the 21 hes a top bloke and will tell you all the ins and outs of making one) they have enough accomadations for one or two to be comfortable and not crowded like sausages on a barbie... will take the rough and tumble with the smooth and easy

Just my view others of course will differ... but for coastal cruising with a tad of comfort and the ability to shoot of to the islands say of the gold coast this would for me be the choice :cool:

dopeydriver

25th October 2006, 07:56 PM

Thanks Wild Dingo.
Er , where do I find out about the Wharram 21 ?.
Regards Rob J.

dopeydriver

25th October 2006, 08:30 PM

What about an NIS 18 ?.
Rob J.

Wild Dingo

26th October 2006, 02:00 AM

Thanks Wild Dingo.
Er , where do I find out about the Wharram 21 ?.
Regards Rob J.

Right HERE (http://www.wharram.com) ;)

bitingmidge

26th October 2006, 09:41 AM

People who continue to perpetrate the myth of the Wharram range ought to be sent to drive trucks in the middle of the desert! :eek:

They're a piece of crap without any good vices. :D But if you are the sort of person that likes being handcuffed blindfolded in a coldroom while having your privates nibbled at by three toed sloths, that sort of lifestyle could be for you!

Small dinghy cruising is possible, and wonderfully enjoyable. I have two friends who have cruised the Queensland Coast in small dinghies, one of them in a 125, one in a Status. When you are out of sight of land alone in a small boat, help is a long long way off!

I've cruised the coast in an 18ft trailer sailer (with bouyancy chambers) equipped with radio and all the safety gear, and then in boats of all sizes after that.

It's all possible, but you have to get a bit of experience first.

I suggest you build the PDR and thrash it! (they are just asking for that! :D) The GIS will be a perfect vessel for camp-cruising, (near shore please!- you are a long way from help if something goes wrong when you are twenty miles offshore), and it's easy to build, so why not do that to gain further experience, get into the boat scene, then weigh up further options?

As a died in the wool multihuller... well you might find an old Seawind 24.........

Cheers,

P

Daddles

26th October 2006, 09:47 AM

meerkat

26th October 2006, 10:03 AM

Now tell us what you really think midge:)

ok then dopey errr dingo, don't get midge rilled up now ya hear !;)

Rob, you could start off with the PDR like midge suggested but IMHO you'll outgrow that pretty quick.

What would I do ?

Start off with something, anything. Decide and start. Try to set an end date otherwise it may sit there while other things take priority.

While doing the first one, suss out what you want to do next. There are plenty of wise (not neccessarily intelligent:p) people on this forum more than happy to give you their 2 cents worth then if you want to move up then start the process over again.

Like anything in life it's not going to be exactly what you first envisaged but its rewarding (says he who had a gutfull of the cadet:D) who knows you might get the bug.

oh and midge, your comments about the coldroom etc might just exite the odd canine I mean they do like to nibble don't they ? You just never know ;):D

Good Luck

Andrew

blownabout

26th October 2006, 10:39 AM

http://www.boatdesign.net/nyd/P590/

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/24-Catamaran-hulls-rig-trailer_W0QQitemZ300039186788QQihZ020QQcategoryZ102701QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Wild Dingo

26th October 2006, 11:05 AM

People who continue to perpetrate the myth of the Wharram range ought to be sent to drive trucks in the middle of the desert! :eek:

You talkin to me?? EH?? :mad: ooooh thats right you were ;)

They're a piece of crap without any good vices. :D

I am not! Im a bloody nice bloke with some quirky interests... So there! :p

But if you are the sort of person that likes being handcuffed blindfolded in a coldroom while having your privates nibbled at by three toed sloths, that sort of lifestyle could be for you!

You know me sooooo well dontcha yer ol phart ;)

Small dinghy cruising is possible, and wonderfully enjoyable. I have two friends who have cruised the Queensland Coast in small dinghies, one of them in a 125, one in a Status. When you are out of sight of land alone in a small boat, help is a long long way off!

I've cruised the coast in an 18ft trailer sailer (with bouyancy chambers) equipped with radio and all the safety gear, and then in boats of all sizes after that.

It's all possible, but you have to get a bit of experience first.

I suggest you build the PDR and thrash it! (they are just asking for that! :D) The GIS will be a perfect vessel for camp-cruising, (near shore please!- you are a long way from help if something goes wrong when you are twenty miles offshore), and it's easy to build, so why not do that to gain further experience, get into the boat scene, then weigh up further options?

As a died in the wool multihuller... well you might find an old Seawind 24.........

Cheers,

P

Of course all thats true I didnt say it wasnt... what I said was my view I like a bit of room a bit of comfort and I didnt say he should buggar of over the pacific in it but for a nice leasurely cruise along the coast it would do me and worth a sticky beak :cool:

Now a nice Jim Brown Searunner perhaps? ;)

dopeydriver

26th October 2006, 02:57 PM

I've finally got you lot started !.
I had a look at the wharram page , and while it seemed impressive , it sorta didn't set me alight.
Are they wood ?. whatever i build or use , I want to be wood.
Its sorta like when I was at Goolwa , one afternoon I snuck off a bit early and went and visited some very experienced camel trekkers , to check out their critters.
Yep , they were very impressive , and could certainly do the job of trekking through the desert better than any other animal , but I reckon they would be an "acquired taste" , ya know ?.
Like boating , try to make informed decisions , and with that experience would probably come an evolution of thoughts.
Yes , my intention is to get the PDR up and going real soon , then probably go to the GIS next year , and give the PDR to the grandkids.
But I'm already better informed from this short conversation , so keep it coming boys !.
You blokes have the experience , I'm just sitting here listening !.
Rob J.

Daddles

26th October 2006, 03:11 PM

Like boating , try to make informed decisions ,

Oh gawd. That's hysterical.

bitingmidge

27th October 2006, 09:10 AM

Rob, you could start off with the PDR like midge suggested but IMHO you'll outgrow that pretty quick.

Andrew, in the sense that one's skills will progress where one can handle a larger boat with a degree of competance, I agree entirely.

However, as the owner of roughly 72 feet of boat, (of which the PDR's comprise 16), they are the sort of thing that just come in handy for all sorts of things. I know I'm a bit enthusiastic, but I'd seriously consider one as a tender for a larger yacht. They are significantly more utilitarian and stable that the typical 7-7-8'0" tenders I've owned and much much more efficient as sailing craft as well.

One of the next projects is to prove one up as a genuine tender type vessel, that will take a small transom modification for an outboard, and a rowing setup.... now I wish I wasn't going away at Christmas!

Cheers,

P

bitingmidge

27th October 2006, 09:36 AM

Notice to all!

It seems that in one of the above posts I may have accidentally given the impression that I don't think much of Wharram boats.

This is not the case I think lots of them, it's just that not all of my thoughts are good ones! :D

Nah! They have a remarkable place in history, just as did Joshua Slocum's spray, but like many other boats (and this is why you have to get out and sail as much as you can).

Many boats are not many of the things their reputation purports them to be. The ethos is bigger than the reality.

I really don't want to bag Wharram's particularly, but to use them as an example, I think it is dangerous to assume that because a few massochists have completed lengthy journeys in well built examples, that they are fantastically good for that purpose by today's standard.

Others are abandonded and littering shorelines of coastlines and estuaries. I can take you to four Wharram abandonded wrecks today if you have the time! (Blame the owners/builders here NOT the designer).

In the absence of evidence, claims about performance are just that, which is why we posted videos of the PDR's in action.

So...what I am trying to say is... go sailing, observe, and ask questions!

If someone describes a boat as "surprisingly" anything, it usually means it is hopeless at whatever is surprising!

Next time to see something described as "surprisingly fast" see if you can find one in a racing fleet.
"surprisingly comfortable" usually means 2ft headroom, and very wet.
"surprisingly seaworthy" means we were lucky it didn't sink
"surprisingly manouvreable" ....means I have no idea how we missed that trawler!

You can go anywhere in anything if you are tough enough, careful enough or lucky enough, but it's nice to be a bit forewarned!

I'm not bagging anything here, but all boats (even the GIS:eek: ) have limits, and it is a question of finding the most appropriate for your purpose!

Keep asking the questions though!

Cheers,

P:D

Boatmik

27th October 2006, 01:59 PM

Nah! They have a remarkable place in history, just as did Joshua Slocum's spray, but like many other boats (and this is why you have to get out and sail as much as you can).
P:D

Actually quite similar to the hype around Wharrams is the hype around Slocum's SPRAY.

She was not the best, or fastest, or safest, or prettiest boat in the world. She was what Slocum could AFFORD - he bought her for a few dollars and spent a long time making her seaworthy enough.

He was a commercial shipping captain with the experience to understand the weaknesses of the boat and work around them.

For example - if she had been knocked down by a heavy sea and capsized there is almost ZERO chance of her coming upright again. Also she was a VERY poor upwind sailer.

Both of which were true of commercial sailing ships so Slocum had the experience of exactly how to handle boats with these limitations.

So if you have someone who TRULY knows what they are doing it may not be a big obstruction.

The really crazy thing is that there are whole ranges of boat plans claiming to be a replica of the SPRAY. They bear some sort of resemblance in profile but are completely different in every other way. Though the profile similarity is enough to ensure that they can't sail upwind to help themselves.

But they are sold as being seaworthy "because the original SPRAY was".

For me the most objective test for the value of boats is their resale.

Any modern multihull in the 40ft range will go for hundreds of thousands of dollars. So on selling the owner will get back a very good proportion of the material and labour that went into the boat.

You can pick up a second hand 40ft Wharram for 40 to 60 thousand - maybe occasionally more. Often much cheaper. Making it hard to even recoup the materials and equipment cost.

Check the net.

This reflects the reality of the boats and the approach and knowledge of most of the people who build them. It doesn't mean that they are not capable of sailing round the world though!!!

Of course it opens up the opportunity to be like Capt. Slocum - that you can pick up a very cheap Wharram and with care and knowledge of its shortfalls in performance and handling you can prepare it and sail it round the world. It will be faster than Slocum's SPRAY but you will be left behind by any other multihull and a good proportion of monohulls too.

Speed is often pointed out as being unecessary by cruising types - but speed means performance which means a margin of safety when the boat is pushed onto its own resources to get out of some difficult situation.

Like the time I was trying to sail into Mooloolaba Harbour against a monster outrush of tide - my mistake! Way too fast to row against. Tried to sail in against it and kept being washed out - looked like I would have to land on the beach in the surf. Then got one decent puff and covered the 100m length of the narrow entry with time to spare. Simply because the boat I was in accelerates and points well, tacks easily and has a good top speed.

MIK

Wild Dingo

1st November 2006, 10:53 PM

WHATHO OL BEANS!!! :eek:

A bunfight over wharrams? TALLYHO an into the frey!! :D

Horses for courses ol chaps horses for courses... Indeed!! Of course a wharram should never be compared to say a schoinning or a crowther just not the same animal mates different as chalk and cheese indeed the comparison of Crown lager to Southwalk (sp?) from South Australia comes to mind.. totally different but serving equal purposes just a different degree of getting there!! ;)

A lock crowther design can never be compared to a schonning nor for that matter should it... they may be multihulls by Aussie designers but the end is there they are different one the race horse of the cruising multihull designs the other the cruising mans cruising multihull... while its true the Wharrams like Jim Browns Searunner trimarran designs languish in the area of whats often referred to as the landrovers of the multihull world

Yes comparitavely they are cheep to buy second hand and expensive to build therefore the resale value is not comparable to either the crowther or schonning designs

Like many other things in life its a matter of tastes eathetics and what "rocks your boat"... I doubt any boat can clamin with any real life degree of acuracy that they are for everyone will do everything that every owner sailor will want.

Its like when the yanks say that either Herroshoff (sp) was a god of boat design or Fife was the absolute designer of fine boat designs they fail to recognize and see that many will disagree due to aesthetics simply put some people WONT like their deisgns!!! FACT...

Perhaps Wharrams designs like say Slocums Spray were or are dogs of the sea? what is wrong with that? if the boat is safe sails fair to where you intend then what says that its not a fine a boat as a Fife or Herroshoff? or a Paine or Peterson or a Crowther or a Schonning for that matter?

A PDF is not to my tastes but I dont denigrate or rubbish it... nor would I if I ever get a chance to muck about in one... then again nor is a kayak to my tastes and particularily not one of the present day popular fibreglass penis envy boats that fill our marinas bays and driveways

A wharram like a searunner is a sygnificant boat if built to the designers specs and sailed by those who find them to their tastes.

A wharram and a searunner for that matter gives by their nature and lack of high resale value the opportunity for those without large bankaccounts the ability to buy or build and sail (yes indeed my freinds sailing both near and far) a boat that takes their fancy that appeals to their fantasies perhaps their aesthetic tastes weird pedelictions and honest appreciation of hard sailing... sometimes one must wonder at the term "sailing" used in many of the fleet of multihulls that gather forests under thieir twin hulls in marinas and bays around the country when the entire boat is set up so that the sailor doesnt have to work theres no work involved its all automated its all covered you sit under the bridgedeck and use a bloody great ss wheel to manauver the boat under sail and not you have generators and motors enough to drive a semi trailer through the seas you have automated sails and reefing systems there is no longer any work involved.. this to me is a worry.

While its also true that no matter the design choice you can always leave of the fancy bits the automated bits the large overbearing ss wheel etc bare bones it... but then it would not be the same would it? A schonning without a ss wheel? :eek: a crowther without the duel motors? :rolleyes: but a wharram? now theres a boat that needs no motors (other than a small outboard or two) a boat where the haulin the sails means HAULING the sails! a boat where a ss wheel would look seriously out of place... a boat designed to work and for work.

Ahem... now ol chaps let me here say that I have no vested interest in either Wharram nor Browns searunner... I also herein say I simply like them for their simplicity they appeal to my own personal sence of adventure and aethstectis in no way should it be taken that I wouldst espouse anyone to purchase a wharram nay! nor even a searunner if neither appeals to them personnally... go have your schonnings your crowthers your prouts your whateverss... and I say fair winds and a following sea be your friend from this day to the end :cool:

Cheers my fellow boatnut mates ;)

ooooh and you to Richard :p

Boatmik

2nd November 2006, 01:49 AM

But dear old Dingo,

Doesn't your argument really end up saying that there is no such thing as a good boat or a bad boat - it just depends what you like?

That any boat is just as valid as any other boat.

That all boats be created equal under the sight of different people.

Its almost like saying that everything is art - we just need to declare it so.

Can't you see the philosophical emptiness of that position?

No Michelangelos, no Cellinis, no Matisses, no Henry Moore.

Or at least all of them exactly equal to the schmaltzy pictures of the roses on the mother's day cards in the newsagents. And look inside ...

My dearest Mum
We had such Fun
It was your Day
We say Hooray

is equal to the best efforts of Coleridge and Omar Khayyam and the Katha Upanisad.

Like there may be lots of arguments about which you place on a higher pedestal - or which of their works you place there - but the pedestals are there nonetheless.

MIK

Wild Dingo

2nd November 2006, 02:48 AM

So true doth that ring young Mik my friend... but yet also doth the words I said afore ring also true do they not?

Is it not truth that some would not find such wonderous beauty as that which Mr Fife created less than beautiful? or those which the Herroshoff's also created less beautiful also? For in truth my dear young friend is not all beauty but within the eye of the beholder as some ancient sage once sayeth?

Neither I nor you wouldst dispute the beauty of such fine designs forsooth but were we to be offered one woulst we not but leap over short stumps hurdle over epoxy puddles in our efforts to stand upon their decks? We two wouldst agree upon that I swear but on other designs surely you would agree we must of course differ for are we not different people my friend and forsooth if we are so then surely it must portend that our tastes in somethings will also differ some greatly and some in triflings but differ none the less? And that be rightly so my young friend rightly so indeed for if we all agreed with our view of beauty then what a boring place indeed wouldst we abide!

Our dear young friend the midge woulst have all and sundry believe as he doth believe that these designs of which we speak the dogs of the sea the landrovers of the deep would have all believe they are not fine boats at all but compare not with other designs by "greater" personages whilst all I wouldst say is that to each their own and pleasure be theirs to enjoy or no as they see fit.

Tis true that I too have many friends seamen and women who journey far and wide on a vast array of design choices some I wouldst not step foot upon in my cups dear young friend for to mine own eye they be worse than dogs upon the waves moreso in some cases appear to be nothing short of wreakages upon the sands and yet dear friend those self same people wouldst journey out with great glee and enjoyment at any time upon which the winds and tides favors them do so. They see a different light than I my young friend and follow a different drummer as some wouldst say for their boats would not please mine own self for sure Id be aghast to spend one gentle breeze swept night upon their salt encrusted decks for fear of being meeting that fine gentleman of the sea John Brown befor many hours wouldst pass

But they doth love their ricketty boats and spend many many hours upon them sailing to places one but dreams of journeying to

Tell me young friend if a wharram or a searunner being as I have said called dogs and landrovers of the sea if they be so bad as brother midge doth protest (which forsooth I do fear he doth protest too much) why then do people both old seamen and young continue to purchase build and sail these old designs? In truth if they be so bad surely they wouldst have disappeared many years since? but still they continue still fine sailors and seamaidens purchase the plans from that scurvy rougue James and still those self same people doth continue to build maintain and sail them why wouldst they do this if they be so bad as midge says so elequently above?

Dear friend Mik such as James Wharram and Jim Brown created with their designs are dreams upon which many a fine fellow has pitched his life and taken heart that it has carried him and kin to far flung places just as some of those created by such as Payne and Fife and others both great and known and those of course lesser known have done also... but at less a fiscal price!

Yet as there must be with al things one must look and listen to the naysayers and doomsayers and hear their words perhaps based upon truth and experience of personal exploits and journeys perhaps and perchance not but listen we must.

But a dream dear friend a fine dream a man can not have but to find a boat that quickens the heart that emboldens the soul and envisions the mind such a boat is but a personal choice and wouldst they not but agree friend Mik that each of us dream and choose much based upon emotion and as such is not much to do with personal choice also not based upon emotion? If so dear friend then surely much ado about nothing is what this thread has become!

For our choices must of course be but personal choices and therefore based upon our own personal predilictions emotions and aesthetic views?

aaahhh but I see not the light for in truth dear friend Mik I canst believe all that fellow friend midge has to say on this matter for he hath not the skill of words but bluff and bluster is his way tis truth thus was the way of the vikings and many others before and since and thus does his stance have validity and within them a ring of truth and a fine fellow he be indeed but tis you who wouldst enlighten us more and use termanology that doth make me wish to expound in a similar vein.

Choises and dreams emotions and tastes are all different with all our fine friends who wouldst sail upon the blue azure seas some choices dreams and emotions both you or I nor I fear even our young friend midge perchance wouldst not have for our own self... yet

yet for some such choices dreams and emotions are the very breath of life a fine thing wouldst thou not say dear friend Mik?

Oh one must also sayeth that many is the fine wee boat that is but less than 20 feet in length many a fine sturdy ship there be under that length so forsooth a 40 foot ship of the seas is not necessarily every sailorman or sea maidens desire whilst some wouldst be happier with nothing more others wouldst and cannot dream or aspire to nothing less

So now my dear young friend is it not also so that it build buy or own such as Lock Crother or his young offsprig create or such that young Schoinning designs wouldst by their very expense mean than many wouldst not have the experience or pleasure of buying or owning let alone sailing their own boat for in truth the price be often more than outrageous! so there must always be a place within our hearts and souls for the likes of the Wharrams Browns and others so that there is a place upon the seas and waterways for all men and maidens no matter their abilities to pay? such is true is it not? For perchance there be a young fellow say not unlike yourself or hark even mine ownself or even young midge or Richard who wouldst but dream of having the ability to buy a Crowther or a Schonning but in reality not... of having a dream to sail fair and wide on a boat of their own but not having swathes of money to enable them to do so in the style they woulds dream of but yet they find they can more easily attend to the building or buying of such as a Wharram and its to these that this thread has now become dedicated to tis no nevermind to us that said new young friend the honerable dopedriver wouldsnt never have envisioned such a thread shanghai to occur at the start of his questing tis a mere piffle a bagatell to us who have such lofty ideals and thoughts for in truth we have but little choice indeed no choice but to shanghai his thread and make it ours to set sail to the wind and take it far off course for in all reality it is the spice of life to enjoy the twists turns and changes of course in life that makes life so very interesting wouldst thou not say dear friend? of course thou wouldst!! for you and I think much alike in these things and if after some time our new young friend feels the same then we have done what is our rightful thing to do have we not? In truth I believe so dear friend for within and without our words there be the ring of truth the stunning blinding heart belting mind startling iotas and gems of truth amid the confusion of course! Confusion being part of the spices and riches of life dear friend so we need not fear that said new friend dopeydriver wouldst not enjoy this gentle banter you and I and young midge wouldst be enjoying for indeed I do think he finds such discourse enlightening and as such worthy

to be continued...

Wild Dingo

2nd November 2006, 03:20 AM

If our new young friend the venerable dopeydriver has the finances available to build buy or otherwise attain such as a fine schoining or wonderous Fife or if it is only such that he couldst afford a Wharram then is it not a fine choice he be making to do so? For he wouldst be sailing he wouldst be going where his dreams take him... albeit in friend midge opinion in a hard way to wind but be that as it may dear friend it would be a choice no? and perhaps a fine choice if it be all he wouldst want it to be. for really if one were to consider this further who wants to be sailing all the time upon the decks of some fine high finance peice of fibreglass or some wonderously gorgeous Fife (well in the last I will perhaps lower my standards a tad and accept it ;) ) but the wharram the cheep option if you will wouldst give him a chance to fullfill a dream move on his emotions and follow his visions

perhaps not? perhaps this wind that blows this thread so far off course is of our own doing and our new young friend has no desire to have own or buy a multihull but wants nothing more than a silly little mono hull to paddleduck around in?... So be it! Wonderous adventures can be had with paddleducking around in small boats and I wish all who wouldst build sail paddle around in them the fairest of winds and wonderous seas for their journeys... not for me of course but if that be ones dream then who be I or you to argue?

Tis but a choice a dream a wonderous sence of freedom and adventure liken to what young Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer would do that most at first aspire to but more often than not the costs associated with attaining the dream ship of their desires wouldst be out of reach and over time wouldst struggle to survive for long amidst the demands of life and wouldst of nature slowly wither and die over time... why? when for a considerably less sum one could have bought such as a wharram or searunner and have lived their adventures and journeys? choices dreams and emotions

I say to our new young friend if it grasps you by the gronicles if it tears your breast from your chest if your mind does the tango... then our new young friend must acqire it... if money be short attend to the matter of attaining it and whilst doing so buy the other option and enjoy some adventures in preparation for the day when you can afford to take up sail and head to your hearts desires and minds dreams of far flung places or warm summer days amidst bikini clad maidens on sun kissed beaches

such are dreams made of my dear young friend and dreams are indeed what makes this world go round :cool:

oh.... howsat young Richard of wordsleuth?? :p

Wild Dingo

2nd November 2006, 03:59 AM

But dear old Dingo,

Doesn't your argument really end up saying that there is no such thing as a good boat or a bad boat - it just depends what you like?

OF COURSE!!! this be the true crux of the matter!

That any boat is just as valid as any other boat.

That my friend is just so... indeed some of the boats Ive seen and Im sure you have seen also that people love enjoy and have fine adventures in are truely abonimations! but to them the boat is as valid indeed as mr Fifes best efforts of another time and place

That all boats be created equal under the sight of different people.

Indeed and your question is? ;)

Its almost like saying that everything is art - we just need to declare it so.

Are you dear friend Mik saying this is not so? surely you jest!! Art is a infinate thing what one man considers a hobby a mere past time a thing that is just done to while away some time is to another art in its finest form

Can't you see the philosophical emptiness of that position?

No I cannot my friend for art to be qualified as such does not require a professorial degree nor indeed years of study but rather its an emotive thing indeed "art" as such is probably the most emotive thing that we can consider

No Michelangelos, no Cellinis, no Matisses, no Henry Moore.

Dear dear Mik my dear friend you read into my words things that are not there... indeed I believe there will always be such gifted ones among us who with stroke of pen brush or other will create the finest of designs pictures or whatever... I do not wish it other wise... rather I say that some will not find the work of a michelangelo a cellini a matiss or even a Henry Moore Norman Lindsay William Fife or whoever very enchanting some there will always be who wont see the beauty you or I see who wont hear the wonderous emotions within words as you or I will hear... some quite simply wont like them

Or at least all of them exactly equal to the schmaltzy pictures of the roses on the mother's day cards in the newsagents. And look inside ..

My dearest Mum
We had such Fun
It was your Day
We say Hooray

is equal to the best efforts of Coleridge and Omar Khayyam and the Katha Upanisad..

And they are not? who decides such dear friend? you or I? or the one who recieves the card with those words from their child? I would suggest the one who receives the card with those words would rather a small joyous bundle of words from their child written in such a way as they can bring tears of joy in their simplicity and very innocence and nievity... while one can enjoy the words of a Coleridge Khayyam or others well enough if they so desire and here I will say there are some that cannot abide poetry of any kind and yet a few simple words from their child in a card can melt the hearts of the most ardent hater of poetry so tell me dear Mik who is the best of poets?

Like there may be lots of arguments about which you place on a higher pedestal - or which of their works you place there - but the pedestals are there nonetheless.

MIK

They are there my freind only because you choose to hear what others say or choose to see through their eyes. Man made pedistals upon which we set our heros and "greats" are at the least poor judges and at worst attrocious perveyors of truth

A man named Fife once drew a boat... a fine boat it was indeed... and once that boat was built of wood iron and copper it was still a fine boat drawn by a man named Fife nothing more nothing less... while there once was a man named... and so on

Tis a simple matter of taste I think... taste and time with which to pursue and puruse to look and learn to try and to test... but the final arbiture will be your heart your dreams your tastes and your ability to pay the fiscal price.

So regardless if one has the tastes for a Fife if one does not have the fiscal abilities to purchase and maintain a Fife then why a Fife? why not something "less" than a Fife? for surely say a Crowninsheild wouldst do for a pittance the cost of a Fife... aspire always to perfection whilst always aknowledging that perfection is out of reach of man... aspire not to the dizzying heights of a pedistal for being man made a pedistal shall fall and if you a man be upon it then you will fall

While one should always aknowledge the work of such luminaries as Fife and the like one must always recognize that others simply design so that others may also enjoy the sea... and remember also that many a fine boat has been designed built and sailed over the millenium by those who were then are still and always will remain anonymous... think thee of the Norse ships that roamed the oceans for centuries who designed such fine vessels? the answer is long gone to the mists of time yet they were and remain some of the finest beautiful and wonderous ships of the sea ever designed built and used... man is but a fleeting time a small rather insygnificant creature in all reality yet every now and then one man or woman will come along and do something truely extraudinary their time on earth will end their memory endure for a few indeterminable years then gone yet one hopes their extraudinary accomplishment will endure... such was the designer who designed the first Norse boat... his name and fame would have been great for a time as he would aslo have been the builder of that boat and used it for many years and whilst doing so would aslo have built others as his fame grew... then he would have died as we all will but still for years after his name would have carried on much as Fifes has for us... then after a time his name would have become lost in the mists of time but the boat lived on it perhaps evolved as needs be and so even the original design would also have changed and perhaps been lost... but that in itself does not take away from what he achieved nor will it for such as Fife

The same be for Michalangelo Van Gogh Colleridge or others.. a time of life a time of extraudinary achievement a time of death a time of pedistal a time of mists then gone only the memory of an ancient achievment will remain and such is art such is design such is life. :cool:

Now I do think we have sorta meandered so far off thread as to have probably confused the buggary out of our new mate young dopeydriver so I think perhaps this should be the final chapter and hand it back to him?

gawd strewth you have evoked in me a truely philisophical mindset tonight Mik! :eek:

Daddles

2nd November 2006, 08:36 AM

Shane, you're supposed to take the RED pills, not the BLUE ones :rolleyes:

Richard

bitingmidge

2nd November 2006, 08:39 AM

Horses for courses ol chaps horses for courses... Indeed!! Of course a wharram should never be compared to say a schoinning or a crowther just not the same animal mates different as chalk and cheese
Why should the comparison not be made? What are you afraid of? :D

If someone asks me for my view on a Wharram, do I say "they are fantastic for what they are" - without expanding to define "what they are", a cheap boat with cramped accomodation, many sailing vices and suspect structure when not built well, and almost no resale value? Or do I leave them with the impression that they are fantastic because they photograph well in a coral lagoon with a near naked buxom blonde draped over them?

If someone asks me for my view on a Crowther, should I not ask which boat? My comment on 50 foot cruising design from the seventies will be rather different to that of a 30 foot racer from the late 80's, but I'd happily make the comparison.

they may be multihulls by Aussie designers but the end is there they are different one the race horse of the cruising multihull designs the other the cruising mans cruising multihull...

To describe Schionning or Crowther cruising boats as "racehorses" is completely incorrect. They aren't racing boat's bottoms. They are merely efficient, comfortable and safe, and light years ahead of the other one.

That's like saying the current bog standard Falcon is the race-car of touring sedans, and you'll stick to your romantic model T ford thanks very much.

Having cruised a bit, (in a non-bridgedeck Crowther design with basic "Wharram" camping fitout). I don't believe that "cruising men" really enjoy being stuck anchored on a lee shore in a boat that won't sail to windward, or the discomfort and deprivation that you seem to lust for.

I certainly haven't met a "cruising man" who didn't want more comfort, more performance and easier maintenance...... until now! ;)

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

dopeydriver

2nd November 2006, 11:38 AM

Wild Dingo

2nd November 2006, 12:36 PM

That was my original header , and it remains , I believe still , the crux of this thread.

I had my ideas of what I believed was an appropriate boat to start with , but lacking experience I sought advise , and I believe the advise given was sound.
I believe building the PDR , then sailing it will get me a good foundation .
And then , I have to build from there.

Who knows , I could finish up in a wharram !.
Rob J.

Fair enough new friend fair enough indeed at least you leave open the opportunity but now I must address myself to dear friend midge who sought naught but to change all an sundries minds so I must now face said friend but do not dispair new young freind I shall return to you in due course

Richard dear young friend you are, I take no meds I let and allow my mind full freedom to seek out its challenges without fetter or chain without being cursed by grammatical correctness or focus nay my dear old friend without any thought or control I wouldst have it no other way for in this unchained uncontrolled freedom sometimes I let loose such discourse that even such be as the bard himself be stunned to silence if he but could read, of what use to write something defined controlled and within strict boundaries? when done so you as with all things freely given which if you will recall writing was a freely given gift from within you as it was for me so it was for you but to rein that creativity in to force control upon it wouldst my friend be the cruelest of things do you not think? Imagine for but a moment dear friend if you didnt control your words when you write your books imagine the freedom the growth the evolvement of your wonderous charectors if you but opened your mind yet more?! aah tis wouldst be but a fine adventure on the very precipice of madness for you an experience that as a writer you must not forgo the challenge faces you my friend go beyond where your control lets you take the step upon that rock strewn slope and see where it takes you experience the adrenaline that overtakes you as your charectors come full to life within your mind an explosion of brilliance that cannot be compared. But I do not seek the apothacarys chest for what ails me for in truth dearest young friend it is indeed a fine madness... take thine meds if thy must or be damned with them and let the mind loose the chains of convention and normalisy!!

But now i must address myself to our old friend and sparring partner the venerable incorrigable young midge

Midge my old seawarrior friend you an I have had this discourse several times now and as always enjoyable to partake it be... I my friend know that often our or rather perhaps my dreams and emotions get stuck on some fine but perhaps not so fine in others minds designs and I tend to become rather dogged in my pursistance and persuit of those who wouldst challenge that and so it has been with you an this matter to hand.

You and I both have sailed upon a wharrams decks you on the one hand have taken away naught but the negative whilst I have taken the enjoyed good within the boats... although as I age and my once fine strong body starts its decline I to will admit to starting to have a small liking for a brigedeck design nothing like a tad of shade when the weather turns to shyte no? or gets so hot you loose 10kilos in less time than it takes to haul the halyards or change tak... shade wouldst be grand at those times me thinks.

If as you say schoinning is advanced for his time and if as you imply they are faster better and more evolved and if one can stand the bulbus revolting looks of one and if one has the fiscal wherewithall to purchase or build one then so be it my friend although I will be never happy to spend the far over priced costs of one let alone their looks

The later designs from Crowther have to my eye lost much of the appeal they held back in the 70s and 80s when old mate Lock was at the helm, why must everything including cruising designs be done around gaining the fastest possible speed? which you would have to admit is presently the case with many if not most being designed as a cruising/racing design when one only wishes to steadily cruise to wherever they desire to go?

I find the present design options and shapes quite revolting but that dear friend midge is but my choice and taste coming to the fore just as some seem to like the boxy looks of the so called "mediterainian" house designs that presently blot our landscape like so many square cow shytes in a small pasture once dotted with fine tall trees... while others like the simplicity and rustic aesthetics of the old time farm house or station homestead that melded into the landscape... a matter of taste... some would proport that the new designs offer better spacial areas better environmental and "green" options I say they are revolting boxy horrid looking things with no enchantment no romance and definantly no taste who is right dear friend? both of us are of course! and so it be for boats dear friend midge so it be with boats

True it is that one if one has immeadiate access to fiscal abilities purchase a ready build and previously owned boat without to many dramas but why wouldst one? when they can but build one? I also know of several different cruising multihulls for sale for what some would term a pittance and also MANY monohulls are available for the same... some fine examples some wonderous things indeed but still one is always left to ask "am I not inheriting someone elses problems?" and will a survey ALWAYS without doubt find the hidden and not so hidden problems with a second hand boat of any design? NAY!! for every survey is done by a man and more often than not each man as we ourselves can attest come with the baggage and bias's of their own within them... so it is in all things... one wouldst hope that the survey wouldst be done properly even if the man doing the survey personally cannot abide the deisgn being assessed... but can we be sure?

I say dear friend that no matter what our new friend said young dopeydriver wouldst choose in the eventual long term be it a fine Payne a michaelangelo of the seas Fife a wonderous Peterson schooner or yes pray tell even a wharram that he be doing it as fully and as thoughough as he can and enjoys many many a fine time sailing her wherever his heart shouldst desire... even having heard such discourse as this!

Now to our new young friend the choices you have before you are solely restricted by your efforts to attain information plans knowledge and experience if you should dedicate yourself to the pursuit of these things you will make a wise choice if you should fail in any one or more you may well be still lucky enough to choose a fine design but if you do you will also fail to avail yourself of many more options than you can imagine... pray tell there are so vast an array of designs that it is confounding and stupifying and will hold you in the mighty grip of confusion for many a year so as you portend for your future so be it... a fine thing is to make a small boat and gain experience a fine thing indeed... if as you say you shall be on a river then perchance you will be able to moor a larger boat on the water? if so then dear new friend look to multihulls and monos that do not have huge great swathes of lead upon their buxom buns for they will cause you nightmares and dear friend their are many designs available that will sit upon a muddy shore upright and firm... look to the boats of cornwall england who spend half their lives on sticks in the mud and still they sail away when tide returns and wind is fair.. EGAD!! It but occurs to mine mind that I know of one such design from an veritable Australian designer for sale at present in thine own eastern lands for as they say a mere pittance if though shouldst be interested I wouldst not hessitate to direct you to its location and owner

A monohull it be that lives upon the muddy banks when not sailing the seas of the coast

Anyway dear friends I must away now for in truth I am yet to find my way out to the majickal land of my shed accredited shed!!

Tally ho ol chaps tally ho!! :cool: :D

bitingmidge

2nd November 2006, 01:19 PM

Because this isn't a bunfight, and because I'm trying to make some clear points in the midst of this and in the context of the thread, I'll try to refrain from arguing all of the above, instead, quoting a few bits. You see we are coming from similar directions, it's just that I'm not so poetic!

You and I both have sailed upon a wharrams decks you on the one hand have taken away naught but the negative whilst I have taken the enjoyed good within the boats... although as I age and my once fine strong body starts its decline I to will admit to starting to have a small liking for a brigedeck design nothing like a tad of shade when the weather turns to shyte no? or gets so hot you loose 10kilos in less time than it takes to haul the halyards or change tak... shade wouldst be grand at those times me thinks.
Then you see, you have already found something that could be improved! and something that is found in host of craft that have better abilities.

That is my point... one must experience as much as possible in order to make a rational statement about the qualities of a particular craft. "it looks good" doesn't cut it!

I am happy to say I am happy anywhere on anyboat on an ocean, or even a puddle. I don't think this is about snobbery, if it were I wouldn't have a PDRacer, but the PDRacer strangely perhaps is a nicer all round sailing experience than any Wharram I've been on!

If as you say schoinning is advanced for his time :eek: :eek: did I say that??? I think not!! and I have never said that Wharram wasn't, nor that Henry Ford wasn't with the Model T, (I have said that their time is over!)
and if as you imply they are faster better and more evolved and if one can stand the bulbus revolting looks of one and if one has the fiscal wherewithall to purchase or build one then so be it my friend although I will be never happy to spend the far over priced costs of one let alone their looks
Ahh so it is just appearance and not "performance"!! THAT is the biggest mistake a newcomer can make, to judge a book by it's cover!

I couldn't afford one of 'them' either, but I spent a lot of years happily cruising in my lightweight non-bridgedeck 29 footer. Why do you think that if it's not a Wharram it's expensive, large, and bulbous?

The later designs from Crowther have to my eye lost much of the appeal they held back in the 70s and 80s when old mate Lock was at the helm, why must everything including cruising designs be done around gaining the fastest possible speed? which you would have to admit is presently the case with many if not most being designed as a cruising/racing design when one only wishes to steadily cruise to wherever they desire to go?
No, I don't admit that at all. That may be the perception you have gained, but it's completely wrong. WRONG. Check out Schionning's Website (http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/www/welcome.cfm) for example and you'll find one range of design intended for racing. This is really just woosy cruiser racing though, not fair dinkum stuff where currently the distance record for 24 hours is 752 nautical miles!!! That's racing!!!

Strangely, that would be the boat that I would choose to cruise, for reasons of seaworthiness, but that's another story.

Speed does have it's place in a cruising life though. I love getting places in daylight!

I find the present design options and shapes quite revolting ..<snip>... a matter of taste... some would proport that the new designs offer better spacial areas better environmental and "green" options I say they are revolting boxy horrid looking things with no enchantment no romance and definantly no taste who is right dear friend? both of us are of course! and so it be for boats dear friend midge so it be with boatsOf course we are! But out there somewhere is a range of designs which must meet your aesthetic criteria, perhaps Given or Tenant or Hill or .... well there are hundreds of them, just don't make decisions on seaworthiness based on the way things look!

Cheers,

P
(Keep up the good work DopeyD - and suffer us!)
:D :D :D

Wild Dingo

2nd November 2006, 03:52 PM

P
(Keep up the good work DopeyD - and suffer us!)
:D :D :D

Yes indeed suffer us well our new young feind for though we may discourse muchly and greatly expounding up this or that of many things we more often than not agree quite pleasantly and not just because either one of us is right either for indeed we both are! In our own ways ;)

Tis indeed part of the reason why we joined this band of crazed and maniacal brothers in the first place... oooooops and sisters!!! :o ...to share expound express relate and learn tis a worthy pursuit is it not young midge? of course it is indeed look at us now!! And there be the new found young friend sitting scratchin his gronicles tryin to make sence of our short and so succint missives tis a wonder really that he can see any sence at all amidst the short sentances that we use.

But never to mind we shall be here to assist berate annoy castigate and just generally encourage our new found friend in any way we can... when he asks and definantly when he doesnt for its our duty is it not? given us by the lord of the forum the gnomelike young frellow known both far and wide as Neil who along with his faithful waiflike sidekick run this place or at least we allow them to think they run it ;)

bloggs1968

2nd November 2006, 06:47 PM

Hey Guys,

what about 2 x GIS with cross beams or maybe a GIS with 2 PDR's outboard.............??

Just a thought.

bitingmidge

2nd November 2006, 07:24 PM

Hmmmm...

Don't hold that thought for very long.... it would make even a Wharram look good!

P
:D :D :D

Boatmik

2nd November 2006, 07:27 PM

Hi Bloggsy,

If someone wants to undertake such a beasty I'd be happy to give them a modest discount on the second boat they are going to build from the same plan.

MIK

Daddles

2nd November 2006, 08:46 PM

Hi Bloggsy,

If someone wants to undertake such a beasty I'd be happy to give them a modest discount on the second boat they are going to build from the same plan.

MIK

Shameless profiteer :eek: :D

Richard

bloggs1968

2nd November 2006, 09:33 PM

Hmmmm...

Don't hold that thought for very long.... it would make even a Wharram look good!

P
:D :D :D

Hey Midge,

it would only make it look good if it followed Wharram's normal advertising and had bare breasted women all over it.

MIK,

Why aren't there any bare breasted women on your advertising?

LOL

AD

Wild Dingo

3rd November 2006, 01:32 AM

Hey Midge,

it would only make it look good if it followed Wharram's normal advertising and had bare breasted women all over it.

MIK,

Why aren't there any bare breasted women on your advertising?

LOL

AD

Totally agree old bean totally!! :cool: I mean the world needs more bare breasted women! ;)

nah cant really see as how it evokes people to buy plans personally id like to think the boat itself would be enough without the frills :rolleyes:

Now... midgey ol son thanks for the link to schonings page hadnt been there for a fair FAIR long time... seems theyre getting pretty active eh? ;) mmmm thinkin thinkin... Im not a purist!! I can appreciate something when I return after a fairly long time cant I? :eek: man your a hard audience :D

Boatmik

6th November 2006, 12:39 PM

Shameless profiteer :eek: :D

Richard

But still a sweet sweet voice of reason!

(or at least I think so - I agree with about 80% of what I say - which is more than I can say for what everyone else says, but it depends which category this thing that I have said belongs to whether it is is in the 80% of what I say that say that I happen to agree with or the remaining 20% of what I say that I say I can't agree once I have said it.)

Boatmik

6th November 2006, 12:46 PM

MIK,

Why aren't there any bare breasted women on your advertising?

LOL

AD

There are a number of reasons for that. But mostly that Wharram has the market in 5ft tall bare breasted women cornered. There is nothing that makes the interior of a boat more attractive (and larger) than adding an undersize partly clad gurl to the drawing.

I wonder if you have to throw them back if they are undersized..

MIK

Wild Dingo

6th November 2006, 01:06 PM

There are a number of reasons for that. But mostly that Wharram has the market in 5ft tall bare breasted women cornered. There is nothing that makes the interior of a boat more attractive (and larger) than adding an undersize partly clad gurl to the drawing.

I wonder if you have to throw them back if they are undersized..

MIK

ROFLMAO!!! :D :D Nah mate unlike fishin you can keep the undersized ones its only the underaged ones that get tossed back! :eek:

Boatmik

7th November 2006, 01:12 AM

Now that everyone is smiling and in a good mood (I know you always are!!!) I'd like to talk about one of my favourite small cruising cats and I've had a sail in a wooden one. It was gaboon all clear finished - looked fantastic on the water. I'll see if I can find some of the pics up at Duck Flat when I go up tomorrow.

Just about the same materials as a Wharram - the other cat in this thread - most of the materials are a little thinner There is a clever prefabrication method where the panels are made on the flat and the stringers attached at that point. When the assembly is glued in place on the frames the interior is ready to varnish. The latest versions are probably a lot less building as they use standard aluminium sections for the crossbeams allowing the boats to be be assembled on the trailer and telescoped out on the water rather than having to build all those crossbeams of timber.

Also a light airy interior in a 25/27 footer with a reasonable double berth in the rear of each hull... the pic here just doesn't do it justice - it just FEELS nice.

I don't know why the one in the pic has a steering wheel - my feeling was that the tiller version I sailed was much nicer. (any comment Midge?)

Just nice sensible moderate boats. Several of them have sailed from the UK down to the Med and longer voyages. If anyone knows the Med they know that all those sunny tourist shots are a bit of a lie - as the place is surrounded by real mountains they get adiabatic winds as the cool air gains momentum and screams down the tens of thousands of feet gaining momentum all the way. At the right time of year the med gets one of these winds at quite regular intervals. Beautiful one day - screaming the next.

There used to be some great footage of one of these kelsalls sailing on the net - several days cruising - a father and his two kids - there didn't seem to be much movement at all until you realised just how fast everything was flashing past - and that was upwind - no jumping and pounding - just easy speed - no monohull of a similar length would have even got close.

Downwind even faster and quieter and smoother. And we are not talking raceboats here - nice sensible mix of features.

Tacking - not quite up to monohull standards but they really whiz around compared to the wharram 31 I've sailed a few times or even a hobie (or a stingray or arrow) - no jib backing required. In the 31 Kelsall I have sailed you could just about make someone standing toward the boat fall over by putting the helm over too quickly - that's what happens with a light boat doing 8 or 8.5 or 9 knots upwind in a moderate wind of 12 to 15knots

I haven't done a lot of sailing on bigger multihulls but the bit that I have showed me (a dyed in the wool monohull person) how modern multis eat up the miles. The really weird thing is that you feel like you are hardly moving - particularly when there is a bridgedeck - which adds more accomodation (and building) but reduces the feeling of sailing in the same way a bigger yacht makes the bow-wave so remote that some of the feeling is lost.

http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/designers/kelsall/Kelsall%20Trail%2027%20Gibralta.jpg
http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/designers/kelsall/Kelsall%20Trail%2027%20looking%20aft.jpg

Anyway - one of my favourites - a nice example of a small cruising cat in the modern vernacular (some of you will laugh at that comment!!! A little bit too much "vogue living" don't you think)

MIK

bitingmidge

7th November 2006, 08:20 AM

Well put as usual Mik, you've summed up the whole thing beautifully.

Wheel steering, as you say is a complete waste on a boat this size, and nowhere near as nice to steer as a tiller.

I think the wheel is brought on by perception - makes it look like a "big" boat eh? So people just spend a lot of money to make it "look" right, unaware that not only will it cost heaps more, there will be more maintenance, and less precision as well.

Cheers,

P

Boatmik

7th November 2006, 03:36 PM

Howdy Midge,

The wheel looked like an affectation to me - why would you want to stand up in all the weather rather than be low and snug on the lee side of the cabin tops or steering from within the hatchway?

I managed to get up to duck flat and pilfer their photo files.

Anyway - there were two versions of the boat. I liked the original timber 25 with the snub ends rather than the later one with the raked bows.

You can see where the speed comes from here - it is purely the lightness on the water. And there is plenty left for payload before it ends up coming down onto its lines.

The big dilemma of course is whether to have bridgedeck accommodation as well. On a boat this small it is difficult to arrange and keep the looks and performance. Around the 30ft mark it is is fairly straightforward but adds so much to the building effort and cost.

Midge do you reckon a bridgedeck with accomdation would add 50% to the labour of building just the hulls or closer to 100%

I like the wooden one very much - they kept it that way for the best part of a decade before it got too many dings and they had to paint it.

MIK