New domino? (and domino vs leigh FMT)

[mcarthur]

Flowboy on 12 Sept said:
Just one more thing. I mentioned meeting the Festool rep yesterday, who mentioned new enhancements which are in progress. Whether or not these can be retrofitted, this shows a product just starting its development life.
So I'm wondering what's on the horizon? I've been doing sums on a Leigh FMT ($1500 here and $1070 if bought in the US next week when I'm there - would they mind it in hand luggage do you think :p) versus a dominator; following the lovers on this forum is pretty depressing for a single like me. So *if* I'm to become domi-married soon, I don't want to have to think about domi-vorce soon thereafter because the next beauty has become available. Does anyone have any knowledge about a new dominator? I realise that lack of knowledge here doesn't mean one isn't going to appear tomorrow, but knowledge here about one would equate to something :o.

Oh, and while you're at it, any convincing of domi vs Leigh FMT (yes, I can only afford *one* of the two; actually that's a lie, I can't afford either but I'm going to buy only one :D)?

Rob

[zuma]

Hmmm I'checked out the website of Leigh and it seems to me that this Leigh FMT is indeed a neat jig. But compared to the domi it'seems to me that the Leigh jig has problems with max. wood(panel) sizes. Where the domi hasn't any wood(panel) size restrictions it seems to me the Leigh FMT has some restrictions.

Just my thoughts after a quick scan.

[patr]

Hi Rob

I have both and whilst the FMT is a superbly engineered jig it is, as Zuma says, restricted by the size of wood you can actually fit. It is also a bench machine and you must take your workpiece to it unlike the Domino which you can take anywhere. I am very pleased with the FMT and the superb standard of joint it produces but the Domino has relegated it to the back burner. They do compliment each other and Rob (Flowboy) has some excellent examples on another thread but the Domino does everything I need and more. I will probably EBay it like the biscuit joiner

The FMT takes a bit of setting up and trial and error to get a first class joint. The Domino requires an HB pencil, two marks and off you go. The resultant joint will look as good as the one produced on the FMT with the added advantages of speed, a precision fit to allow dry assembly prior to gluing and no size restrictions on wide panels for example.

The Dominos themselves are not cheap but being able to cut exact lengths rather than allowing for tenons does eventualy add up, especially on expensive woods and I have started to make my own Dominos for through tenons.

If the Domino had been out at the same time as the FMT I would have just bought the Domino. It is a superb tool and I will keep my eyes open for any modifications or enhancements.

If you do buy the FMT you will not be dissappointed. Like all Leigh stuff it is expensive but it does exactly what it is designed to do and is precision engineered to last. A bit like Festool.:D

Kind regards
Pat

[mcarthur]

Thanks Pat,
I appreciate the time and thought that you've all gone through to help me decide :). That's a strong statement that if you didn't have either, you'd buy the Domi. I like buying quality (well, apart from the $99 dovetail jig and GMC thicknesser during which occasions I had a head transplant), so it sounds like the Domi is the goer. In this case, it could be said that I've sold the house to buy the Domino :eek:! In reality, only part of the proceeds of the sale will be used to buy it but it sounds good :p)

Thanks
Rob

[nt900]

Hi Rob,

I would agree with Pat. Given the opportunity to purchase a Domino or a Leigh FMT, or dovetail jig, I would first select the Domino. Obviously this depends on the type of work/joint look you are trying to achieve, but I suggest the Domino will get most users producing joints within their first hour or less. The other options need more set-up time and experimentation before tackling a project. An unlike the Domino, you quite often need to make a test joint before doing the real thing on your project. I have never (well almost never) had the need to do that with the Domino.

Now I suggest this with only quite a bit of Domino experience, and only a little FMT/dovetail experience. But enough to support my comment above - because I had to take these learning steps myself and can make the comparison. But like all systems, once you get the experience, they become second nature.

Far from suggesting the Leigh FMT is a poor machine. Thanks to a FMT demo by Flowboy, I got my first FMT experience. I was pretty happy with the joint possibilities, and very impressed with the quality of the machine, same for the Leigh D4R dovetail jig. Impressed enough to now be offering them for sale at Ideal Tools (not trying to plug them here, but demonstrating my enthusiasm for them). I do not see the FMT competing with the Domino, but as complementary joining solutions for some workshops.

To reinforce my earlier suggestion, I would personally choose the Domino first, then Leigh D4R (for decorative joints), then FMT to fill that last little void of joint options. Either way, all very nice machines :)

[Flowboy]

Hi all,

I agree with all thats been said before. The original question was whether a FMT would be redundant if you purchased a Domino. My answer was no and I still think that. Howewver, if I has to choose, the Domino would win ahnds down for most applications. As with Pat, having both is luxury and no M&T type joint is out of reach. The FMT was not meant to be an on site device like the Domino is, so I think you need to take this into account, but there are situations, particularly in some furniture making projects where the FMT will win hands down over the DOmino. So really, get the Domino first, then think about the FMT. One thing, if you do buy an FMT never use a straight bit for the mortising. You'll never find the bottom of it for sawdust!!!

Regards

Rob

[mcarthur]

I agree with all thats been said before. The original question was whether a FMT would be redundant if you purchased a Domino. My answer was no and I still think that. Howewver, if I has to choose, the Domino would win ahnds down for most applications. As with Pat, having both is luxury and no M&T type joint is out of reach. The FMT was not meant to be an on site device like the Domino is, so I think you need to take this into account, but there are situations, particularly in some furniture making projects where the FMT will win hands down over the DOmino. So really, get the Domino first, then think about the FMT.

Rob, the original question - ably answered by you all :) - wasn't really about redundancy: if I had the money for a Domi AND FMT I would! I'm happy to believe that both are great additions to the arsenal, but I was wondering which, if only one were to be added, would be the one. I think the Domi seems to be winning :D.

Could you say from your (or other people's) experience in what situations (method? wood types? joint types? etc.) would th FMT be preferable to the Domi? This isn't a Dorothy Dixer - I'd like to know whether what I'm contemplating (and dreaming) is more covered by one than the other.

Thanks
Rob

[Flowboy]

Hi Rob,
If I was going to buy one instrument, it would be the Domi. However, in some circumstances, such as cutting angled tenons on chairs, the Domi will do almost all that is required, but the FMT will cut the angled tenons such that you don't need to worry about being too close to the edge of the mortised workpiece. FMT stands for Frame Mortise and Tenon and this is where it is useful. It's not designed for panels and the like it is a shop piece of equipment, primarily designed for low to medium level production. I'd have to agree with Pat that if the Domino had been released when I bought the Leigh jig, I would have onlly bought the Domino, but that said, Istill like the FMT and use it for special funtions. An example of this would be through tenon mortises. I have just finished making some of these with the Domi and they are fine, but I think the FMT would have given me more flexibility in depth and width of cut. Hope this all makes sense:) .

Regards,

Rob

[mcarthur]

OK, ok, ok. I'll join the blinkin' club :D. Anywhere in Canberra to buy the beast or is nt900 going to get my $$$? (after I get back from the US on the 19th)

Rob

[patr]

Hi Rob

If I lived in Australia and wanted any Festools I know who would be getting my business......Anthony. I only wish dealers here in the UK were as interested in their products and were so open in their dealings and intent when posting on Forums. I do not know Anthony from Adam and as I am on the other side of the World have absolutely no association with his business but he knows his products, contributes enormously to this Forum and answers in a refreshingly honest and upfront manner. When you are paying for a prestige and expensive product it is so much nicer to deal with someone who cares. After all, anyone can take a phone order but not everyone can provide a service.

Which means that I only wish I had a dealer of such quality here in Wales and why my experience of the Festool YUK network has resulted in buying everything in Deutschland Uber Alles from an excellent firm who respond immediately to orders or enquiries, email me about special offers and even took me and Sue to lunch when we last visited.

I first got into the Festool illness 4 years ago when I decided to leave the square root of SFA to my three wonderful sons, apart from the house. I then decided to research dealers to get the best combination of price and service for the tools that I had long lusted over. (My wife breathed a sigh of relief when she discovered the book I was reading under the duvet by torchlight was the Festool Catalogue and not an Illustrated Guide to Nocturnal Positions of Pleasure.)

I phoned several Festool dealers here in the UK and was met with a crescendo of indifference and the occasional powertool pygmy on day release from the local Asylum. It quickly became apparent that UK dealers considered 'discount' to be Hebrew for Fick Off, that all had attended the "Cannot, Will Not, Shan't Discount Course" run by Festool YUK and all had graduated with top marks.

I then visited a local dealer as I quite like the eye to eye contact thingy when handing over my readies but again was felt to be 3 paces to the left of a Leper on asking my favourite question on discounts. After mine-host picked himself up off the floor he recited the " we do not discount as the tools are keenly priced and we would get our danglies removed by Festool YUK should they hear of such a dastardly deed" mantra. I then turned sharply to the left and marched towards the exit door to be halted by the immortal phrase " oh go on then. I'll give you 20% off list but keep it between us or Festool YUK will take my franchise away, I will be forced to eat my children and sell Dew...".

Encouraged I then said that I would like 3 or 4 Festools to begin with as well as a Leigh D4 and FMT. I asked what other incentives would he offer on such an order (Leigh's pricing policy is remarkably similar to Festools). He replied that I had already forced him into profit poverty with the Festool discount was now beginning to take the urine. "Not so my Dear Chap" I retorted, "not the urine, but my business. Elsewhere."

To that day I have bought in Germany, had superb service and have been given a 3% discount without even asking. Their prices, including delivery by DHL, are even cheaper than the 20% off prices quoted here in the UK which we must 'not mention', or was that the War? :D I bought the Leigh stuff in the States after checking their website and the price difference which almost paid for my flight.

So if you get a good dealer, who knows his stuff and will respond to any question or problem then he is worth his weight in gold. I do believe he uses the pseudonym NT900!

Regards
Pat

(My trusty mate Simou knows more about Festool products than many of the dealers here in the UK. He knows them intimately. After all he has eaten several sanding discs and a 150 sanding pad.)

[mat]

Rob

In Canberra the biggest stockist of Festool is Combined Electrical and Workshop Services in Fyshwick. As festol prices are fairly "fixed" ask them what they will throw in as an extra.
They do keep the machines in stock.


BUT arn't you tempted to see what the revised model can do for you?
OR can't you wait now you have decided?

[nt900]

Golly Pat - :D what can I say but thanks for the positive review . I'm blushing :o and feel a bit light headed (or is that big headed). It's not hard though when you love doing it and appreciate the products so much. It's really a blast! And I enjoy talking with people and finding out all interesting manner of stuff about their projects and what they are doing. I must say I have a good working knowledge of the products and what to do with them, but I'm always learning from guys (and girls - hi Dan) about woody stuff and even the tools themselves, thanks everyone. :)

But more and more people are finding out good service (which can mean a whole bunch of different things) is paramount. We were in an Apple shop Monday to buy my wife an iPod for her birthday. She has been working very hard and deserves a good present. The place was in the middle of renovations, stock was low, and the guys behind the counter looked too 'hip' to be much use. But... they politely apologised for the reno/stock situation, spent good time with us even though they were quite busy (we spent way to much time trying to pick out the just-right colour of protective case), and knew their stuff as you should expect. I hope our smiles and thank you's were enough to make them feel good about the job they are doing. The Apple shop iPods and accessories may be slightly more expensive there than maybe a few electrical store have them, but I am not sure we would have ended up with the same positive outcomes. :) It's a shame the big corporates think service and quality is expendable these days. :( Sorry, I gone way off topic re: Rob's original question.

[Flowboy]

Rocko,

Just make sure the doors are wide enough for you as you do the renos. And you may like to look at getting a head brace to keep it level whilst walking.

Regards,

Rob

[mcarthur]

In Canberra the biggest stockist of Festool is Combined Electrical and Workshop Services in Fyshwick. As festol prices are fairly "fixed" ask them what they will throw in as an extra.
They do keep the machines in stock.

BUT arn't you tempted to see what the revised model can do for you?
OR can't you wait now you have decided?

Mat, thanks for the info re: a local dealer. I certainly like Anthony's way of working (from what I can see) and get-up-and-go. I also like to support and be supported by local businesses if possible. So I guess I'll make a decision later :p.

I would certainly be interested in a revised model if there was any indication one was in the pipeline (read "before xmas"). This thread hasn't ellicited any advance notice of anything like that so I'm assuming that if it's going to happen, it'll do so without any warning. It could be tomorrow or a year away. So, if something hasn't appeared by the end of Nov when I return from o/s, then a v1 Domi will be in my sights! :)

Rob

[nt900]

hehe Flowboy.

All - I know nothing about any revision of the Domino coming down the pipeline, but I would bet someone's lefty that there is NOT one coming this soon after the product was just released in March. There may be some new accessories coming though. Yet again, I don't have any inside info, but it makes sense if there are. But a new machine does not make any sense.

[Flowboy]

Hi all,
I concur with Anthony. Can't see a 2nd gen tool being released . This one is pretty well thought out. Look for adaptors to allow table mounting, longer cutters and the like. Much as we would like to see doweling ability and user adjustable pendulum action, the Domino is primarily set up for people working with projects other than tightly positioned joints such as are found in furniture construction. It's designed to improve speed and flow of work in situations where accuracy is needed, but probably more in large panel situations. Having said that, you've just got to look through these pages to see how much innovation is possible.

Regards

Rob

[manso]

I am new to the ubeaut forums, having lurked for a few weeks. As a newbie, I hope I offend no-one when I say that I find the style of the ubeaut forums - shall I say, more robust than some others - though interestingly that characteristic seems to lead to more accord and fellowship and less sniping than can occasionally arise elsewhere. To be clear, I find these forums not only informative and instructive, but with a high level of wit, irreverence and humour. Thank you for the experience.
Having said that, I have a specific question in the face of Festool UK pricing policy (though Fesool.de's prices might lead me to believe the problem may rather be with the UK importer/distributor). Patr mentioned an alternative source in Germany which gave good deals and I wondered if he would be prepared to share, though I understand that special relations sometimes must remain exclusive, especially given Festool's apparent sensitivity.

[Honorary Bloke]

Welcome Manso to the ROBUST Forum! I'm sure patr will share, it's Simou you have to watch. :D

At least you can buy the bluddy things.:mad: Here in Yankland we are still waiting for Herr Doktor Festool to pronounce his 115 volt, American-style plug, Underwriters' Laboratory Approved benediction on the North American market--a benediction which he has so far withheld. But I understand the Banns will be posted early next year and many Domi-nated marriages will take place. Meanwhile, if you haven't yet, take a look at some of the Domi magic performed by Rob (Flowboy), Lignum, Rocker, et alia. And don't be afraid to jump right in on any of the forii so long as you don't mind having the phizz taken out of you for a Pom every now and then. :rolleyes:

As for offending anyone, no worries mate, you'll sooner or later offend everyone. (Or they'll offend you.) ;)

[Flowboy]

I am new to the ubeaut forums, having lurked for a few weeks. As a newbie, I hope I offend no-one when I say that I find the style of the ubeaut forums - shall I say, more robust than some others - though interestingly that characteristic seems to lead to more accord and fellowship and less sniping than can occasionally arise elsewhere. To be clear, I find these forums not only informative and instructive, but with a high level of wit, irreverence and humour. Thank you for the experience.


Hi Manso and welcome.

Gee, they way you describe the forums, you'd think there were Aussies lurkin' abaht.:D .
IMHO, Festool pricing in the all the known world is "imagininative". My feeling is that this is linked to the way that units are sold to sellers. They appear to have to pay upfront and cannot return stock which they order. In addition they are not given much margin to work with, hence prices remain consistent across the entire range of Tool stores which sell Festo product.

Hope you enjoy your stay and get and give great information.

Regards,

Rob

[patr]

Hi Manso

Good to see another inhabitant of these fair Isles posting though many who live over the border (from me) are keeping their heads down after the Antipodeans lucky win last week. Cricket is a game I have never understood though I do believe it involves playing other national teams and loosing to give them a false sense of superiority.:)

I do purchase in Germany, mainly as I visit that lovely country quite often and prefer handing over wads of cash to dealers who know their product, enthuse about it and sell at appreciably lower prices than Festool YUK. Cartel, what cartel? Plus most of them speak better English that the spotty yoofs in the UK dealers and even know how to say Good Morning and may I be of help.

You ask about sharing the names. Well I started using the German dealers who advertise on EBay and have never been let down or taken to the cleaners. Indeed they offer the 3% cash discount without asking. UK dealers would rather eat their testicles than offer a discount though when pressed with the 'well I am off' tactic will usually knock off the VAT or 20% which is damm generous of them as UK prices seem to be more than 20% higher than Deutschland uber Alles. There is however a German VAT hike courtesy of Angele from 16% to 19% wef 1 Jan 07 but even so it will be cheaper to buy from Germany.

The dealer I use has asked not to be named as he does not send mail outside Germany after an unfortunate incident with a firm in France. The last time an English customer phoned he apologised for being unable to take a UK order and was treated to a tirade of abuse including reminders of who won the war (twice) and that all Germans were a bit thick. I am Irish and would have taken the 'bit' thing as as a compliment but my friend is a Dr (Engineer), attended Oxford as an foreign student and speaks immaculate English. He politely thanked the caller for his magnificent grasp of History and the Grammatical excellence of his rant and put the phone down.

Use any of the firms who advertise Festool products on EBay as they mostly have English speaking staff and are very professional. I would however check the Festool Deutschland website to check that they are bona fide dealers.

Kind regards

Pat

[Flowboy]

Hi Pat,
I still think having Simou stand at the door wearing a Fedora and Trench coat and carrying a Violin case gives you the edge!:D

Regards,

Rob

[Auld Bassoon]

With a cigarette dangling nonchantly in his right paw, and quietly growling "Lili Marlene"...

[manso]

Thanks for the information. I can quite understand, as I had a quite similar experience when I recommended a Dutch car exporter to someone. My wife had a very good, slick import and saved a bundle, but the recommendee made a real meal of it.

[Lignum]

I hope its true, but i heard a whisper that a revised position of the sprung index pin is in the pipeline allowing a mortice to be plunged on a stile to coincide with a plunge on a 40mm rail using the centering jig. Its the only major flaw of the Domi.

The same whisperer told me a SCMS will be here some time early next year. Time to start saving up:)

[zuma]

Thanks for the information. I can quite understand, as I had a quite similar experience when I recommended a Dutch car exporter to someone. My wife had a very good, slick import and saved a bundle, but the recommendee made a real meal of it.

I'm living in the Netherlands. A few years ago a dealer who was new to festool dealership was prepared to give a discount to me which was as large as the VAT. That's pretty much for a retail discount. Prices were therefore lower than retail list prices in Germany. I thought this was a very good thing. But suddenly the retailer stopped with giving discounts. After asking why the dealer told Festool would kick him out of the dealership if he kept on giving discounts on the listprice. Could I believe that?

Yes, because it was from then on cheaper for me to buy (on-line) in Germany. But those German dealers wouldn't sell/ship to the Netherlands for the obvious reasons. I had to ship it to a German friend.... Furthermore In the Netherlands there were no action prices to be found on festool tools, not even on-line...

I made a complaint to the Dutch Competition Authority and a time later on things started to change, My dealer was again prepared to give discounts (however a bit smaller than before...), more and more on-line action prices for festool tools. Finally there seems to be starting up some competition between dealers (mostly on-line, in shops only after some dealing). It's almost sad :( to think a complaint to a competetion authority was needed. Could also be just coincidence.:D

[extiger]

I'm writing from California and am waiting for the release of the 110volt U.S.-destined Domino. Promised for this April, though Festool made the same promise here in Jan of 2004.

As to pricing, U.S. sales were limited to individual agents, none of whom were allowed to stock inventory. Machines were housed and then shipped only from a few company warehouses scattered around the country. According to an official announcement from the company, as of the first of this year (today) there will now be regular stores serving as sales agents, along with private agents.

In Los Angeles there are 3 of those dealers near to me, and none of them will haggle over price. I also noticed that the individual agents who sell Festool on eBay offer the established price, and nothing less.

You are lucky in that as used Festools come up for sale on eBay, you at least have a wider pool of countries to buy from due to the standard 220v current in most of the world. canada and the U.S. are the 'odd man out' in this regard.

I will credit Festool-US for offering a $150 discount on a 3-tool package, and $30 off per tool on any combination of more than 1 tool. Those two deals ended December 31.

Gary Curtis
Trinity County California

[Flowboy]

Hi Gary,
Festool dont discount. Its that simple. Nor do they need to with a tool like the Domino. The cluster discount sounds good though, if you can afford it and if the tools you need are in the bundle. If you are going to buy a Domino, then you may seriously want to consider an RO150 sander and a TS55 Plunge saw. Both will make the completion of your projects more satisfying.
As far as second hand tools goes, I don't think you are going to see a lot of Dominoes in this market for some time to come. However, if you find one in Europe that you can buy, then get yourself a step-up transformer, to take your 110V system up to 220V for the tool. :2tsup:

Regards and welcome to the forum. Have fun!!:)

Rob

[extiger]

Thanks Flowboy. My current inventory of Festool is the ATF 55 saw and the RO 150. So you've read my mind. I'd like to get the multi-function table and the 1400 router in addition to the Domino. By the way, they use the acronym of ISA for their independent dealers. Independent sales agents.

The three tool discount I mentioned was formulated on their selection of tools - jigsaw, drill, shop vac. Using a 220-powered tool running off a transformer presents a slight problem in that our current is 60 cycles. So a tool made for you would operate at a 20% overspeed here. Not a problem for some units, but definitely a challenge with a saw or router.

I'm going to hold off on the Domino for a couple of reasons. I don't need the portability and I already own a WoodRat. The latter is a machine that turns any router into a 3-axis CNC machiine. It does a beautiful job making mortise & tenons. I think I'll cut my mortises using it and then just buy the ready-made Domino tenon stock.

But I'm open minded about the issue. If others tell me I can't live without it, I'll get a Domino. Just built a new house and new woodwork shop. After outfitting the shop completely, funds are short. And I must be judicious about introducing more equipment. I'm tryiing to be intelligent about things like storage space.

Gary Curtis

[Honorary Bloke]

And I must be judicious about introducing more equipment. I'm tryiing to be intelligent about things like storage space.


Maaate! If you're going to introduce intelligence into the equation, then there is no hope for you. :D Just buy the Domi and throw out something unimportant to make space for it, like one of your rugrats or your wife's favorite vase. :oo: