Pretty rapt!

[Malibu]

I've finaly finished the inside carving on my archtop backplate and I'm pretty happy with the result so far. :D
I started to seal the grain with shellac and thought I may as well give the french polish thing a good attempt and so far so good. I've got a nice thick coat on up to this point, but I'll leave it for a day or so and cut it back heavy with 400 w&d, then work my way on to 1600.
To this point, there's 7 layers, each one cut back with 800 w&d then with 000 steel wool. I don't know how many layers I need to do, but I guess when it has that deep french polish look and an "all over shine" it would probably be enough. I suppose it's all part of the technique; knowing when to stop.
It's not at the stage of the grand piano shine but as per Contrebass's suggestion, I worked on something that's important, but not critical. I think (hope?) I've figured the basics out and I'll work on the technique from there. :)
Thanks for everyone's suggestions and swaying my decision into french polish, it looks like it'll pay off in looking good...

[TassieKiwi]

nice lump of timber.

[gratay]

Arn't you going to finish building the guitar before you start finishing it??

looking good though

[Malibu]

You mean I have to finish it as well as doing all this fun stuff too?? ;)

[AlexS]

Wow - you sure made the right decision about polishing it - it would be criminal not to on that wood.

[watson]

And then some silly bugger will play it with a big belt buckle on......gloom!
Regards,
Noel

[gratay]

malibu,
what is the name brand of the shellac you used for the finish....
did you have any FP experience beforehand?
so far so good

[Malibu]

Gday Gratay.. I had to run down to the workshop to check the brand (that's how much I took notice!) and it's Diggers 'Golden Glory'. I picked it up at the local hardware, Mitre 10 or Home or something or other, so it's nothing special. I also used diggers meths and a final rub with olive oil.

I've done FP once before on a coffee table, but that was a massive disaster and ended up using wax instead. I think I learned more from that episode than I realised and also picked up a ton of tips from this forum. :)

[contrebasse]

Looking really nice - a lovely piec of wood and the smoothest /inside/ of an instrument I've ever seen!!

Are you going to finish it the proper way with a rubber? That's the way to get the grand piano shine, and THAT's the thing you need to practice for the front.

[Malibu]

Thanks for the comments guys... A little snooping around on the web this morning and I came up with this site:
http://www.milburnguitars.com/fpbannerframes.html
and it seems pretty good for step by step on French Polish. I haven't read it through yet, but at first glance it looks like there's some good tips if any one is contemplating FP. :)

[gratay]

yes i have this bookmarked already....looks good

the dvd from ronald louis fernandez "French Polishing for guitarmakers 2.0" is supposed to be the go as well

as is "A polisher's handbook" by neil ellis an australian book http://www.ubeaut.com.au/book.html

[contrebasse]

What I learnt ... temperature is important - you want the alcohol to evaporate. A warm room, but not too warm. A rolled up cotton t-shirt is OK for a rubber. Fill the rubber from behind the rubbing surface. Dab the rubber on the back of your hand and when its feels just a bit cool/damp, its right. Shouldn't be wet. dab a fingertip into some linseed oil and dab it onto the rubber. start rubbing lightly, circular motion, pressing harder as the rubber dries out. a bit more oil doesn't hurt if the surface starts to "grab". this usually means the rubbers too wet or the base is too fresh. "Concentrate on the corners and the edges. The flat parts will look after themselves" is what I was told, and it works.

[Malibu]

Gratay: I'll keep an eye open for that stuff, thanks. I've only just delved into the FP part of it (it's still a loooooooooong way off yet!) but there's always tips to pick up somewhere along the way.

CB: One thing I did wrong was to use a cotton pillow slip for a wad, but I'm going to try a white T-shirt and see how it goes. The pillow slip was too abrasive in the final stages. One thing I learned is, while it's hard work (the shoulders bear the biggest brunt) when everything is done "right" it all just comes together naturally.
It's hard to describe until you try it out... Once you do try it, it all makes sense and you think; oh, now I get it... I still need to get that french polish allure, though! Not giving up yet... :D

I did find that the oil plays a huge part in it, although it seems that some FP's don't use oil. Maybe it's just my beginners style, but I find it really hard going when the shellac starts to dry out and stick. Once a few dabs of oil goes on the wad, it's a big difference.

I read of using pumic to fill the grain, but I was wondering about using other stuff (pumice is kind of rare in my local general store!). Some initial thoughts were Talc, Baking powder or plain ol' sanding dust. Any thoughts, anyone?
I'll try a few things on a blank bit of timber tomorrow and see how it all goes.

[contrebasse]

It depends what you want. If you want a mirror finish, keep painting on shellac and sanding back till the grain is filled, then polish.

"I find it really hard going when the shellac starts to dry out and stick"

That sounds like you're starting it too wet or pressing too hard. Usually it sticks less when it dries out. Use very light buffing strokes at first and if it doesn't grab, go a little firmer. Think of the rubbing not as putting more shellac on the surface, but using a waft of metho to soften the surface and spread the shine around evenly ...

sometimes the shellac gets too soft and needs to harden up again so you can resume polishing. The purists say dont use oil because it leaves a bloom on the surface but i've never had a problem. But then, I've never polished a piano ...

[Malibu]

But then, I've never polished a piano ...

It's a close second with a double bass though! :D
How's it going, you've been a bit quiet on the bass building front lately, or have I just not kept up with the latest updates on your web-page?

[contrebasse]

To busy plane making!!! I've been readin' up on arching shapes, cycloids etc. That's complicated and rather important, I've also started the scroll, did a bit last night. Will post pixs soon.

Whan I wrote a "waft" of metho above, I meant a "breath" of metho. Just the vapour ... but don't drink it.

[kiwigeo]

I did find that the oil plays a huge part in it, although it seems that some FP's don't use oil. Maybe it's just my beginners style, but I find it really hard going when the shellac starts to dry out and stick. Once a few dabs of oil goes on the wad, it's a big difference.

I read of using pumic to fill the grain, but I was wondering about using other stuff (pumice is kind of rare in my local general store!). Some initial thoughts were Talc, Baking powder or plain ol' sanding dust. Any thoughts, anyone?
I'll try a few things on a blank bit of timber tomorrow and see how it all goes.

Oil is important as a lubricant but you can do without it once you develope a bit of experience and a feel for what is the right amount of shellac and meths on your fad. The trick with using oil is to just put on enough to leave a "tail" that evaporates immediately aft of the pad. No tail..not enough oil, a long lingering tail means too much oil. If your pad starts sticking then put a drop or two of oil on same.

Milburns tutorial is a good place to start if youre an FP beginner.

Grain filling....if you want to be old fashioned and do it the hard way then use pumice...its what I use but its hard work and requires a bit of skill. Use Behlens 4F grade pumice from Lee Valley..its the best for grain filling. Talc....usually has additives. Baking soda...dont know about using that stuff. If you want to grain fill the easy way then go for epoxy...Z-poxy is one product but there are others.

Shellac flakes....dont use the Digger stuff, its a bit dark for most top woods. I use Liberon's blonde shellac flakes.

Cheers Martin

[Shedhand]

g'day Malibu. If can make a suggestion mate. Stop with the steel wool if you're going to use bog standard metho. It contains 5 to 15% water which will cause any steel wool left behind to rust under your finish. And that's abugger. DAMHIKT. Get some IMS from Neil at Ubeaut.
Nice work though.

[Malibu]

Gday all..
Thanks to everyone for the nice comments and all the helpful advice!
The last attempt (few days ago) almost, *ALMOST* got a grand piano shine out of it and now I've left it at that. The basis of doing this was for a bit of a try-out, but primarily to fill the grain... which it has. When glueing time comes around, I'll rub the shine off and leave a slightly matt finish.
Martin's comments about the tail is a good one because that's exactly what I found as I was going. A nice smear that almost evaporates straight away gave the best results. I was surprised at how much shellac and meths you DON'T use in the process!
I'm not going down the pumice path yet, but I've ordered some talc from u-beaut that supposedly doesn't have additives in it, so I'll see how that goes. I didn't try any baking soda because I think it'll be way too harsh. Anything that can clean my burned cooking slops from my saucepans in a flash has got to be bad news!
I'll steer clear of diggers shellac because I think it'll colour the maple top too much when I get around to that part of the process, but it was good for a trial on the inside.
I pay particular attention to cleaning before I do another layer, but Shedhand's suggstion of the rust makes sense. I'll ponder another way around this one.
All up, a good trial and I can recommend everyone trying a FP finish at some stage, not necessarily on a guitar. At the very least, I've learned tons from the bit that I've done and got a good workout in the process! :D

[Setch]

Just FYI, Bob Milburn (auther of the excellent FP tutorial linked earlier) now grain fills with epoxy, squeegeeing (Sp?!) it on with a round cornered razor blade. I've filled a few guitars with epoxy (I use 30 min Devcon) and it does a lovely job of poppign the grain, and filling the pores. I haven't tried it under french polish, since I build solid bodied electric guitars...so far.

[kiwigeo]

The trick with using oil is to just put on enough to leave a "tail" that evaporates immediately aft of the pad. No tail..not enough oil, a long lingering tail means too much oil. If your pad starts sticking then put a drop or two of oil on same.



The more observant of you would have picked the obvious mistake above...no tail means not enough shellac (not oil) and long lingering tail means too much shellac. "tackiness" of fad indicates whether there is enough oil or not.

[contrebasse]

yeah i did wonder ...

[Malibu]

Well, I would have noticed, but I'm just a beginner... ;)
Actually, I thought you were talking about the meths.

[contrebasse]

why don't people just fill grain with shellac??

[kiwigeo]

why don't people just fill grain with shellac??

A filler does a quicker job than shellac. You could eventually get a smooth finish on Indian Rosewood but using a 2lb cut it would probably take you months (years?) of padding on shellac...the stuff goes on so thin.

[Malibu]

I used the shellac to fill the grain on the inside of the back plate and yeah, it's taken forever! I'd say 30 coats with plenty of sanding back in between. I've only just got the grain filled, and there's still a few dimples left. It works, but really slowly!