Good sealers - other than cow poo

[Designsync]

G'Day,

New to turning and to this site. About 3 years ago at an woodworking exhibition I mentioned to my wife that I wouldn't mind trying wood turning one day. To my complete surprise she rocks up from work just before my birthday with lathe, supernova chuck, and a set of hamlet tools :eek: - couldn't have been happier:D . That was about 2 months ago and that's how I got into turning. Absolutley loving it!!!

We have quite a bit of green sheoak lying around the property which, i think, would be OK for turning. If only I could stop it from splitting at the log end:mad: . Is there a good commercial sealer available which once I slice off a piece for turning can paint onto the log end until it comes time to take the next slice. I believe Anchorseal (US product) does the job. Does anyone know if it's available here? Or better still, is there an Australian made product similar to Anchorseal? Have done some searching on the net but can't find much.

Cheers

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Do a search for Mobilcer-M. :)

[Designsync]

Thanks Skew ChiDAMN. I'm assuming it's sold by Mobil. I think they removed the M product - now called 195. I'll call Mobil tomorrow. Thanks for your help.

[dai sensei]

Or you can just dissolve some white packing foam in some turps. Forms a goo that you just spread on the ends. After a coule of days it drys to a dry chewing gum consistency.

[powderpost]

A company called Aftek ( I think) produces a product called 'Endcheck'. Mobilcer-M has been modified for spraying and is a thinner consistency and in my opinion less effective. I now have to apply two coats, to get the same protection. Try a cheap water based concrete block filler. I haven't used it on timber, but have applied it to concrete blocks. Will probably do a good job for you, maybe two coats are needed.
Jim

[Wizened of Oz]

The problem with sheoak is that it has such a high shrinkage that it is splitting almost before you've turned off the chainsaw. It needs to be dried very slowly.
Suggestion: Cut your log into turning lengths sealing cut ends immediately. Cut lengthwise on the bandsaw and eliminate the pith. Then leave the pieces to dry slowly in one of those woven bags such as fertiliser bag outer, or wrap in a product like weedmat. Keep indoors out of the sun.

Good luck.

[joe greiner]

Packing foam and turps? I think I'd rather use cow poo.:D
Oh wait. I don't have a cow. I've used melted paraffin wax - a complete PITA. I've also used latex paint, as suggested by some folks somewhere. Sometimes available as returns to paint shops at a discount cuz mis-mixed color (oops! sorry! colour) or such. Our local haz waste facility has a swap shed for leftover paint and such. Cost is about $2 for any amount for gas (oops again! petrol) to the dump and back home.

One of these days, I'll learn proper English.:o

JG

[Designsync]

Thanks everyone for all the info. I'll try everything and see what works for me. Not sure about foam and turps - the greenies next door will freak out:eek: !

Joe, you're almost ready to apply for an Aussie passport;) . Now you need to learn to say 'G'Day mate' while holding a can of VB, or Toohey New, or XXXX (no, not Fosters) and your ready to move out here!

[dai sensei]

Not sure about foam and turps - the greenies next door will freak out:eek:

I would have thought the greenies would jump for joy. Packing foam lasts for years and uses heaps of volume. I dissolved packing from a TV, air con and a thicknesser into 0.5 litres of turps to get around 1 litre of goo - enough to seal around 15 number 300mm dia logs both ends. Not sure about what fumes it gives off though.

[TTIT]

I would have thought the greenies would jump for joy. Packing foam lasts for years and uses heaps of volume. I dissolved packing from a TV, air con and a thicknesser into 0.5 litres of turps to get around 1 litre of goo - enough to seal around 15 number 300mm dia logs both ends. Not sure about what fumes it gives off though. How long can you keep it Neil or do you have to use it on the spot like epoxy?:confused:

[dai sensei]

How long can you keep it Neil or do you have to use it on the spot like epoxy?:confused:

I have kept it for a few days in a container, but after a while it does tend to separate from the turps and your left with a hard lump in turps. I generally just mix up what I need at the time I need it. Plenty of foam available, a lot of stores thank you for taking it away if you don't have your own.

[Arno]

What's wrong with paraffin wax? I have an old electric frying pan (you know the ones with the little thermostat thingy) melt the wax in there and either hold the ends of a straight piece in it or roll a blank through it. No problems!

Doesn't work for whole logs though :)

[joe greiner]

My experiment with the wax involved a small pan on a single-element burner, brushed on the ends of whole logs. Might be better with dipping smaller pieces.

Thanks, Designsync. I'm still having trouble with "aluminium," though.:D

JG

[soundman]

I've made buckets.... and I do mean buckets of styro desolved in thinner.
All the electronics I install comes with styro packaging, If I didn't do this i'd be up to my armpits in it.

A couple of tricks.
be sure to make it runny enough, if it is allowed to get too thick it starts to want to solidify and gets difficult to dilute or mix with new solvent.
If it is kept good and runny it will keep indefinitely.

The main risk is the fumes from whatever solvent you are using.
When disolved in thinner it goes of rather more chrisp.

when good and runny dipping works best
too thick and it doesn't get in to the pores and cracks.

Back to the sheoak.... it loves to split , it wants to split, it will even split while it is still growing.
Either split it where it want to with a froe or an axe or rip it up the middle first.
once it has settled down it seems to behave.

nothing wrong with wax.

cheers

[hughie]

I've made buckets.... and I do mean buckets of styro dissolved in thinner.
All the electronics I install comes with styro packaging, If I didn't do this i'd be up to my armpits in it.



Sound man, I have had to give it up. The last batch of thinners I bought from my local bunnies would not dissolve it :mad: grrrrh, had a semi dissolved grey sludge on my hands. not happy jan !!!
What brand do you use?

[tashammer]

Or you can just dissolve some white packing foam in some turps. Forms a goo that you just spread on the ends. After a coule of days it drys to a dry chewing gum consistency.

Isn't that one of those 1001 Ways of Making Your Own Napalm?

[Gino]

I use melted wax in an old electric fry pan, I recon it'd be a lot lets toxic than melted foam.
I've heard that some people have even used PVA glue to seal the ends.

regards

Gino

[Designsync]

Went into town yesterday and picked up the supplies.

Experiment:
No.1-50/50 parrafin and bees wax.
No.2-80/20 parrafin and bees respectively
No.3-BP Log End Sealer 20L (A$100.00 for those interested)
No.4-Packing foam from TV box mixed with turps to a consistant goo.
No.5-Packing foam mixed with Automotive spray paint thinners.
No.6-PVA glue.

I'm going to take 6 slices (approx 250mm (10") diameter x 150mm (6") deep) of she-oak, coat them immediately after cutting, then into the shed to see what happens. Will keep you informed.

I will also weigh each piece to give us a moisture percentage lose/retained - I'll try and post photos and results on a weekly basis.

Cheers
Iain Hamilton.

[soundman]

Two things to consider.
Not every packing foam is polystyrene.
There are some politicaly correct "solvents" that don't disolve stuff the real ones should.

polystyrene disolves in GP laquer thinners rather quickly:eek: :D :D .
It disolves in all sorts of other stuff very redily, like turps, petrol or anything petrol related, metho I think.

I have had some stuff that looks a lot like styro but just goes sticky & I supose it would disolve eventulay... sort of.

BTW.... always take the proper safety precautions.

cheers

[Arno]

Errrrr

Just a question - how do you cut your blanks? I.e. when you say 250mm dia and 150mm long, how does the grain run?

[rsser]

Excellent Iain.

A bit of experimental data will be very welcome.

btw, what are you riding?

[rsser]

I use melted wax in an old electric fry pan, I recon it'd be a lot lets toxic than melted foam.
I've heard that some people have even used PVA glue to seal the ends.

Gino

Yeah, when I do a batch I heat up a baking tray of parrafin wax on a cheap electric grill top. It's slow cos big blocks pull down the temp of the wax, but it's a lot safer than heating a pan of wax over an open flame.

I've read big chip fryers work well too.

[Big Shed]

Two things to consider.
Not every packing foam is polystyrene.
There are some politicaly correct "solvents" that don't disolve stuff the real ones should.

polystyrene disolves in GP laquer thinners rather quickly:eek: :D :D .
It disolves in all sorts of other stuff very redily, like turps, petrol or anything petrol related, metho I think.



In a previous life I was a paint chemist. Styrofoam will dissolve in anything with high aromatics, eg mineral turps, toluene, xylene. Most thinners for aotomotive spraying enamel will do the trick. White spirits is very low in aromatics and will not so well.
I don't think metho will work but haven't actually tried it.
I had never heard of using styrofoam in turps to seal end grain, what a great idea.
I have always used our cattle branding paint, which tends to be a thick gooey (highly technical here) spirit based paint. I always used different colours for different wood species so it was easy to at a glance what was what.

[cedar n silky]

Yeah, when I do a batch I heat up a baking tray of parrafin wax on a cheap electric grill top. It's slow cos big blocks pull down the temp of the wax, but it's a lot safer than heating a pan of wax over an open flame.

I've read big chip fryers work well too.

My early experiment in melting parafin wax, Age 12!!:D I thought I'd make some candles, so I put some parafin in an empty dog food can, and heated it over an open fire under the flooded gum at home.:confused: Well it didn't take long for it to melt ,than boil, than overflow, and then burn the top out of the 30 meter gum tree in a spectacular explosion!.:eek: I was just lucky I wasn't looking over the top of the can at the time. :D

[Christopha]

I have an old electric frypan courtesy of a clearing sale years ago, $2 outlay. In it I melt any old wax I can lay my hands on, mainly beeswax I guess from bee keeping types, full of dead bees and crud. I turns the thing on and wait till it gets steamy hot and then end seal by dipping, with bowl blanks, dipping and rolling. seems to work a treat...... cheap too, a bit like me.

[Designsync]

Who'da though that parrafin wax would be so hard to get. Nearest large town is Coffs and no fuel depots carry it. Candle suppliers in Sydney are about the only place I can find it:( . No one here will even order it for me.

My local bee bloke is selling me a 5kg slab of unfiltered bees wax. Any other suggestions on what to mix it with other than parrafin wax.

Cedar n silky, maybe that's why I can't get hold of any parrafin wax!:D

Arno, for this purpose/experiment it will be a cross grain cut, taking slices off the she-oak trunk (for want of a better description), like slicing a carrot. Shooda said 150mm thick (not long). Or, should I be taking a longer cut and splitting it down the centre?

Rsser, that photo was taken by me on the back of a friends hornet. I actually ride a blade, one model up from yours '04. Awesome fun!

Big Shed/Soundman, just tried a bit in turps.....works very well. Tip for anyone else trying the foam method - don't get any on your fingers. This was 2 hours ago and I'm still trying to pick it off.

Gino/Christopha, will do a garage sale search in Coffs tomorrow looking for one electric fry pan. If I pay more than $2.00 I'll consider myself ripped off.

[Caveman]

QUOTE:'Or, should I be taking a longer cut and splitting it down the centre?'


Hi Iain - looking forward to the results.
I mostly use thick bitumastic / bituminous paint to seal green timber / blanks - that's all I can get that works (other than melted beeswax) - no such thing as purpose made log end sealer in these parts! Maybe another one to add to your list of experiments:) .

Blanks for wood turning from green logs should generally be cut to length (slightly over) then the log split in half lengthwise to remove the pith - this should make the log far less likely to split.

[dai sensei]

Tip for anyone else trying the foam method - don't get any on your fingers. This was 2 hours ago and I'm still trying to pick it off.


I make mine thicker than Soundman, I place it on the log end and spread it out with my hands, doesn't stick at all to my hands.:cool: After about an hour it soaks in, but leaves a coating around 2-3mm thick that takes about a week to dry.

I did try the thinner method, but found it crazed after about 3 months. The thicker stuff stays pliable, although very hard, and hasn't cracked after 18 months (my oldest).

[joe greiner]

For keeping glop in general off my hands, I usually wear disposable latex or nitrile gloves (aka "proctologist gloves" :D ). Available in packs of about 25 pairs at drug stores (Do you folks still call them "chemists?"), and in first aid/bandages department at supermarkets. YMMV

I don't mind getting my hands dirty. Frequent cleaning is the PITA, because I need to replace towels while the previous ones dry.

JG

[tashammer]

...Tip for anyone else trying the foam method - don't get any on your fingers. This was 2 hours ago and I'm still trying to pick it off.

Gino/Christopha, will do a garage sale search in Coffs tomorrow looking for one electric fry pan. If I pay more than $2.00 I'll consider myself ripped off.

Yep Designsync, i wasn't kidding when i said about it being a recipe for napalm - it was in one of those 1001 Chemical recipe publications freely available on P2P.

Good tip Gino/Christopha. I will hunt a fry pan up at the local markets or garage sales.

Oh, re paraffin wax - couldn't find a source here. Well i have about 5 kg of cleaned beeswax and i am going to mix it with the same quantity by weight of white candles (the 6" x 3" dia ones - cheap from Chickenfeed store). Some of the beeswax i will use in polishes - hmm, i wonder if i mixed a bit of Ajax powder in as an experiment? The balance i want to use to make candles by mixing the beeswax with the white candlewax - does anyone know if they will mix?

Tom

[rsser]

The balance i want to use to make candles by mixing the beeswax with the white candlewax - does anyone know if they will mix?

Tom

Candlewax has got more than parrafin in it but I think they should mix. As to the ratio, do a search ... there was some discussion about that a while ago. From memory, the beeswax makes the mix a bit more flexible.

btw, my local h/w has a block of beeswax about 1 litre in volume and is asking $50 for it :eek:

[soundman]

On a completely different but related subject.

Refining bees wax... and other waxers I supose.

My bro inlaw has bees & they refine the wax by stuffing it in a fine cloth bag like a pillow slip, tie itup tight and put a brick on the bag to weight it down all in the bottom of a 20l drum and boil er up with lots of water.

let it all cool and skim the solidified wax off the top.

do that a couple of times & it should come up clean & near white.

you will need to heat the wax alone after that to drive out excess water.

double boiler or thermostatic fry pan is the go for heating.

Unfiltered and unrefined it is a filthy yellow/brown, with all sorts of surplus bee parts and stuff in it.

cheers

[tashammer]

hmmm, well the beeswax is brown but not filthy as it has no bee bits in it but it might be a good idea to clean it as you suggest though the thought of white and bown swirly wax was ok.

$50 ? good grief. i think i will go and pat it a bit.

[Designsync]

Here's what I've done.

1. BP Log end sealer.
2. PVA glue.
3. Foam and Turps.
4. 70% bees wax 30% Pure Gun Turps.

I'll keep an eye on things and keep you informed.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

What? Not experimenting with tins of leftover enamel paint? Tsk, tsk!

[Designsync]

Nah, sorry Skew. Didn't have any in the shed and had already spent way too much dosh!

[lacewood]

I am exhausted after just reading about all the hard work you all put into end sealing. Be kind to yourself and take the easy way out and buy the BP wood end sealer product or the Mobil product, slap it on thick and quick and get back to the fun part...... ie turning wood into toothpicks and fancy firewood:)

[TTIT]

I am exhausted after just reading about all the hard work you all put into end sealing. Be kind to yourself and take the easy way out and buy the BP wood end sealer product or the Mobil product, slap it on thick and quick and get back to the fun part...... ie turning wood into toothpicks and fancy firewood:)My guess is that Neil will be along shortly to give you the same (wise) advice he gave me on that one. Mobilcer is great stuff and I use it on everything BUT - beware!!! It soaks in a long way and will stain the wood in doing so. So if your blanks are cut to very close dimensions and you won't be taking a healthy layer off to true it up, you are better to try some of the other goo's mentioned in this thread.:)

[lacewood]

I haven't had too many problems to date which is surprising when you take into account we have high, ie 44 deg C, in the shade temperatures here quite often. But, I must confess I do mostly slap the sealer on large slabs of timber rather than itty bitty bits. Guess I have been lucky with the small bits of timbers I have used it on. I do prefere the denser woods so that may have been the saving grace. I am a great scavenger of tree lopper harvestered wood with the latested being more than 2 ton of a very large Acacia Salacina which had been leaning over a neighbours house in an ineresting manner. Now I just have to wait a few years for it to dry out....... Making friends with a tree lopper is a great way of getting hold of all sorts of different woods and also saves him the fees for dumping at the council facility! Recycling in action and it isn't a great drama if I lose some :)

[rsser]

I am a great scavenger of tree lopper harvestered wood with the latested being more than 2 ton of a very large Acacia Salacina which had been leaning over a neighbours house in an ineresting manner. Now I just have to wait a few years for it to dry out....... Making friends with a tree lopper is a great way of getting hold of all sorts of different woods and also saves him the fees for dumping at the council facility! Recycling in action and it isn't a great drama if I lose some :)

The sad thing down here is to see so many councils put logs straight into a chipper for use as mulch.

[soundman]

The sad thing down here is to see so many councils put logs straight into a chipper for use as mulch.

That's whay you need a fast ute...... so you can catch the buggers before they get to the dump.:D :D

cheers

[rsser]

Yeah. It's the only time I'm riding when I miss 4 wheels.

[soundman]

two words for you rsser........ bungy straps:D

[tashammer]

Lacewood you sound like a good neighbour to have. Hmmm, several vehicles, a scanner, mobile phones and a couple of slabs. Call it Woodsavers Inc. Listen in on the scanner, make friends with loppers (that's what the slabs are for - maybe a single or a six pack to start with).
Sigh, makes me wish i was young again. Bugga young, make it healthy. Wait a minute, i could man the phone and base station - vicarious excitement. Home movie and dvd rights. Hmm, we could have a famous actor playing a lead role - Huge Jackman (closely related to Hugh). Tina Turner singing the theme song. Yesss, i see it now...That's why they call it Thunderstump.

Lacewood you can be the pack RevMaster, Skewy, you and Wild can be the resident maniacs.

And which of the ladies wants a role - You get to be the Seductress who challenges newbies at the Turnout! - first to turn a multidimensional cuboidal, goblet pen with rings and squares on it is declared the winner. the loser brings lunch. brings up lunch, or is lunch.

[Designsync]

OK it's been a week and all going well - no cracks at this stage. Not sure about the bees wax. It hasn't stuck to the timber very well - pockets of air between the wax and timber. This may cause a problem when the humidity hits in January, but time will tell!

Got the go-ahead to buy a bandsaw (providing it can 'build a kitchen'. Yah sure love;) ). After reading just about every post regarding bandsaws I ended up going for the Hafco BP-16A. Doesn't arrive until mid to end of December - can't wait. Will order some decent blades from Henry Bros and we should be good to go.

I've also attached one of my first bowls.....can only get better from here.

[Caveman]

OK it's been a week and all going well - no cracks at this stage. Not sure about the bees wax. It hasn't stuck to the timber very well - pockets of air between the wax and timber. This may cause a problem when the humidity hits in January, but time will tell!


Hey - nice effort on the bowl - looks good to me.

I've used beeswax to seal some rough turned bowls and have found that the airpockets you mention tend to form a fungal growth - especially during the wet weather. Mostly though it's no problem as the staining invariably gets turned out later.
On a blank like yours it shouldn't be any problem unless left for a heck of a long time so that the spalting penetrates real deep.

Congrats re. the bandsaw. I don't have one yet and would love to get my paws on one. Cutting out big bowl blanks with a chainsaw results in an 'exciting' first few minutes when the blank is on the lathe for roughing down!

[Designsync]

I've been slack and haven't updated any results.....sorry. From your own experience, 99.9% of you know the results anyway.

After 7 weeks the slabs held up well, no splits. My original plan was to watch'em, weigh'em, blah, blah, blah. But new bandsaw + logs lying around = roughed turned bowls. Sealed them again with log end sealer and will give them a few months to dry.

On another matter, I played around with a blackbutt burl over the Xmas break trying a few different things. 1 thing I couldn't work out was how to fill the gaps with clear resin. Tried rough turning then placed paper on the underside and topside with a thick resin mixture but it still ran all over the place. Anyone done this before? Any suggestions? I've attached a photo of another one I turned which I'd like to fill then turn to a perfectly smooth bowl.

[rsser]

Nice piece.

Why fill cracks though? (Mutton dressed up as lamb IMO).

[Designsync]

Thanks Ern.

I just wanted to play around to see how it looks....probably no good, but I've set myself the challange so it's gotta be done.

:rolleyes: mmmm...might try a plaster mould.

[tashammer]

maybe a silicon mould?

will you be using clear filling or coloured or having sparkly bits in it?

[Designsync]

Tas, it will be crystal clear. I'm hoping that with a little sand and polish the resin you come up like glass.

[tashammer]

i don't think that will ever happen.

[dai sensei]

1 thing I couldn't work out was how to fill the gaps with clear resin

Nice work Hammo. I don't know if you need to fill them, it looks good the way it is. But if you must, cover the underside with gaffa tape, just make sure all the joints have a decent overlap and are sealed well. You can do it before turning if your blank isn't too large, otherwise after rough turning, but you will have to do multiple pours (ie pour, then rotate, pour again etc etc).