Cramp

[masoth]

I've searched 76 forum pages, in vain, trying to find a holding device for use with a drill press. Can anyone direct me to a drawing of a home made cramping device for drilling small pieces? Someting the size, of say, a pen blank.
If my memory is right it's simplly a couple of hinged slats, but before making that I'd like to be sure if some safety aspect may need consideration.

Ta a bit,:rolleyes:

soth

[bsrlee]

I think you want to drill out the centre of a pen blank. I've seen a few jigs in mags like FWW that are basically 2 pieces of ply/MDF joined at 90 deg. in an 'L' that in turn are screwed to a flat base, again at 90 deg & "L". You mark out the point for the drill on the blank, clamp the blank to the uprights, then position the blank under the drill bit so everything is centred. Then clamp the base to the drill table & you are away. Always assuming that the drill table is exactly perpendicular to the drill bit.

Another one I have seen is to use a wooden jawed "hand screw clamp" to hold the piece to be drilled, then use a second clamp to hold the wooden clamp to the table.

[Barry_White]

Hi Soth

Here is a pic of how I hold my pen blanks. This is a table I made which I copied from DPB (Don Barton). I am sure I posted some other pics here on the forum but just can't find them at the moment.

Here is the link to DPB's Drill Press Table. http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=7880

[joe greiner]

I use a cross-slide vise bolted to the DP table. Eats up headroom, but facilitates placing the target spot on. Prices all over the lot, US$40-ish to >= US$150 or so. Even the cheapos are pretty good. Adjustable gibs to reduce slop, and locking screws to hold after finding target.

Joe

[KevM]

I've posted this before, so follow this link (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=217138#post217138).

[masoth]

Thank you, all. I reckon I've enough information to make a jig now.:D

[soundman]

I had a cramp in my led once.... but I use "clamps" for woodworking....

I've been trying to find out where this "cramps" BS came from for years.

Seem there is a " certain line" of wood workers that insist on using " cramps"
Curious.... I've never encounterd the use of the word in metalworking:confused:

Seriously a v block arrangement of one sort or another is probaly the best go.

cheers

[MurrayD99]

sash cramp is a sash cramp... G-cramp is a G-cramp. You tighten up the cramps.... You get a cramp.... But you clamp two bits of material together... Maybe it (cramp) is just a noun....

[jmk89]

Here's what the OED says about clamp and cramp:
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/cramp?view=uk
and
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/clamp?view=uk

Looks to me like a cramp is a specific form of clamp....either that or there are two words to prevent discimination against people who can't saw claw (see "Get Smart" - "not craw, it's craw") - sorry Wongo:D

[soundman]

AHHH the Oxford describes what I consider the correct usage.

A cramp is a metal object not unlike a staple which is driven into timber or masonry.

I only see this " eronoious" use of cramp comming in in the mid 20'th century.

I have not seen a catalogue selling cramps for wood working.... ever.

so where does this come from.
I have hard evidence of the " correct" use from the 19 the century.

cheers

[Bleedin Thumb]

Never heard it used before in woodworking. I was about to type some snide comment... Glad it was you Soundman....is that egg on your face?:D

[BobL]

I've heard kids using it more than adults but maybe it has "insclutible oliental oligin"??

[soundman]

There's no egg on my face, but I alwas get.... insistent when the cramp users come out.

I have several 20'th century text books that will not use the word "clamp" anywhere, and I have come across quite a number of people ( mostly from the south) that insist on correcting everybody who uses the word "clamp" as if they are ignortant...... its been going on for years up here... I can remember one of my oldman's mates having a go at some southern blow in that told him that he should be using the word "cramp" & that was in the 60's.

My old man was a shipwright trained in liverpool in the 30's and he always owned and used "clamps".

Americans only use "clamps" and most form the UK use "clamps" I do have one text from the UK that calls them "cramps".


I've been trying to get to the bottom of this one for years.

Is this another shelac story...... you cant tell em its beetle SH**, tell em its the wings....... and lots of people have believed it's the wings.

cheers

[BobL]

Have placed a request with Kel Richards of Newsradio to look at clamps v cramps. Kel's the guy that does the WordWatch program. If he replies I'll post here.

[MurrayD99]

Don't want to get too dogmatic here. Just so's nobody tries to rename a sash cramp as something else.:D:D Off behind the parapet for a quick can of XXXX.....;)

[masoth]

Soundman, I too am something of a 'wordaholic' and have these definitions for your consideration:

CLAMP a noun with the following descriptions:
1. a heap of potatoes or other root vegetables stored under straw or earth;
2. a pile of bricks for burning;
3. a pile of turf or peat or garden rubbish.
From 16th century and probably from the Dutch KLAMP meaning heap.

This is extracted from an Oxford University Press publication. If we have a Member millionaire perhaps he/she would buy, for me, the OUP 16 vols dictionary (it was 16 vols last time I heard and 13 vols in 1959) - this lists current words and allows a trace backward through to the introduction into English usage.:cool:

[MurrayD99]

Soundman, I too am something of a 'wordaholic' and have these definitions for your consideration:

CLAMP a noun with the following descriptions:
1. a heap of potatoes or other root vegetables stored under straw or earth;
..........
From 16th century and probably from the Dutch KLAMP meaning heap.

.:cool:


Quite so. Mr Record wouldn't have named his cramps (sash or G) after a heap of potatoes. Exactly.... Longer Ox is The Man!

[soundman]

Hmm interesting i have here a 1998, edition 100th aniversary record catalogue that has no "cramps" in it at all.:rolleyes:

As far as I can see this is a thing that seem to come only from NSW and VIC.

The "english" publication is in fact a victorian publication printed in england.

1950's SA education department text.... clamps.

It wouldn't surprise me if this comes down to one bloke with a hobby horse.


cheers

[Wood Butcher]

I had a cramp in my led once.... but I use "clamps" for woodworking....

Going right back to the beginning of the conversation. Masoth was asking for a "cramping device" which I believe is correct grammatical use of the words. After all you use a clamp to cramp timber. Therefore a clamp is a cramping device.

And now I have a headache with all this thinking!:o:p

[Julian]

I had a cramp in my led once.... but I use "clamps" for woodworking....

I've been trying to find out where this "cramps" BS came from for years.

Seem there is a " certain line" of wood workers that insist on using " cramps"
Curious.... I've never encounterd the use of the word in metalworking:confused:

Seriously a v block arrangement of one sort or another is probaly the best go.

cheers

I was always taught that a woodworker uses "cramps" and an engineer uses " clamps".- Traditional old english school furniture making.

[soundman]

Hmm seems to be some sort of dutch conspiracy.

Almost all entries selling clamps on the internet will of curse also use the word cramp because they don't want to miss a sale.

grammer don't enter into it....clamp or cramp the gramatical changes are the same. Saying "I clamped the work with a cramp" is gramaticaly incorrect.... you wont get that past any decent editor.

Its some joker insisting on taking the education system back to reinstate the dutch/ germanic roots of a word that had changed over a 100 years ago to clamp.

What offends me is the retentive bastards have probaly been marking inocent boys wrong when they say. "A clamp is used to draw parts together."

I've heard the pile of potatoes line from the condecentive know it alls too.

Truth to tell the word probaly comes from the same root anyway.

Tell me..... do any manufacturers list 'Cramps" in their catalogues.......
not record...... not bessey....... not the usual suspects...... and i've never seen it in an american context.

I'll have another look in my libruray.

cheers

[joe greiner]

Soundman, your shipwright Dad might have also used cramps. In drydock, jumbo staples (driven with a sledge hammer) are used to assemble stacks of timber to make keel and side blocks.

Joe

[silkwood]

Soundman, you seem to hve made your mind up you're right and are looking for reasons to support your viewpoint. The term Cramp is still used in TAFE courses (in SA at least) as an alternative/variant to Clamp. There are differing opinions about correct terminology but few would be as sure of their perspective as you appear to be.

My Old Man (now departed) was an Engineer Pattern-Maker (as are/were others on this forum) and he used both terms. When pressed he used to say he'd use Cramp if he placed the work on the apparatus (eg. sash-cramp) and clamp if he placed the apparatus on the work. then he'd qualify by saying he didn't really know, but it had been taught to him and now it is taught to others. Tomato/potato, let it go.

Cheers,

Mark

[soundman]

I am quite happy for others to use what ever whichever term they chose but.....I strongly object to The "cramp establishment" correcting the users of the word clamp. whith phrases like. In particular certain teachers of wood work.

It a "cramp" not a pile of potatoes.

You know the correct word is "cramp".

You idiot only metalworking butchers use "clamps".

An when government sanctioned texts use the word "cramp" without acknoledgement that most of the english speaking world understand the word "clamp" as being an alternative word for use and in fact the most common.

It's like certain churches insisting on using the king james version with all the thee, & thou stuff.

I'm just trying to swing the balance and raise the issue.



I appologise to the original poster for hijacking his thread.
If you check out "turning pens & pencils" by christensen & burningham.... there is a picture of a couple of types of drilling "Clamp" things on pages 112 & 113.

basicly consists of a couple of pieces of wood with a grove or chanel cut in them and hinged.... held together by hand or with a "clamp".


this isn't a bad book particularly for a beginner. check it out at the usual places


cheers
It's a clamp.:D :D :D

[MurrayD99]

........It's like certain churches insisting on using the king james version with all the thee, & thou stuff......

cheers
It's a clamp.:D :D :D


Now you are on the verge of really starting somthing. Don't want to cramp yer style or anything, but yer'll end up repenting yer manifold sins & wickednesses.... Remember The Pope's dovetails;)

[Andy Mac]

We all know what a "cramp" is when someone says it, even if we don't use that term, so probably left alone!
However, I have a dictionary in front of me which says a cramp is anything that presses or confines, but originally meant an iron bar bent at both ends to bind stones or timber (from ME-MDu krampe hook). Very likely the same root as crampon, those fittings for boots when walking on ice. And the word clamp also comes from ME-MDutch, the word klampe...but no definition follows. Somehow, Soundman, I think the mixing of the two words will go back a long way!!:rolleyes:

Cheers,

[echnidna]

Cramp users are really Clamp Users who have been negatively affected by their lack of Daylight saving :D :D :D

[JDub]

there seems to be alot of cramps happening in workshops across the country.... when your in your shed in summer you need to drink more water and keep hydrated and it wont happen:rolleyes:

[soundman]

Exactly.

[masoth]

(sigh) I'm sorry I asked!!:rolleyes:

[MurrayD99]

(sigh) I'm sorry I asked!!:rolleyes:


No no no. Excellent wide-ranging thread. Flushed out a lot of angst... had the potential to become a full-blooded religious thing... :) I'm going to enjoy getting into my shed on the weekend and checking there's no rust on my Record sash c..... c...... (falls & dies)

[soundman]

If you want a full blooded religeous discussion...... lets start a sharpening thread:D

How about sharpening chisels with an angle grinder.:eek: :eek: :eek:


cheers

[BobL]

If you want a full blooded religeous discussion...... lets start a sharpening thread:D

How about sharpening chisels with an angle grinder.:eek: :eek: :eek:


cheers

I got a better question.

How do you flatten the backs of small blades like spokeshaves without ruining your nails?

Mine are starting to look like Jakes - actually I'm quite proud of them and my black cracked fingers at work when all the other guys in the office shake hands I must be the only one with the black cracked calluses!

[scooter]

Bob, probably better to hone a very slight backbevel to ensure the edge is the meeting of two honed surfaces.

Could be done with a steel ruler on the edge of the stone, as per the "David Charlesworth" method. Given the short length of the spokeshave blade, a slimmer piece of sheetmetal could be better than a rule.


Cheers................Sean

[soundman]

The problem with spokeshave blades is gripping the little suckers.

Doing any serious work flatening the packs of plane blades istn't good for the manicure either.

I've been meaning to make a block jig or two.

for spoke shaves... a block of wood with a bolt having had two flat sides filed set in the face of the block.

No clamp required.
cheers

[Ambers]

Just a thought - you get "cramps" in the stomach (tightening of muscle etc etc - all sorts of cause) not clamps?????? Where is the relationship?

Maybe those who refer to "Cramps" were suffering cramps at the time and couldn't say or type "clamps" as they were doubled over at the time?????

[MurrayD99]

Just a thought - you get "cramps" in the stomach (tightening of muscle etc etc - all sorts of cause) not clamps?????? Where is the relationship?

Maybe those who refer to "Cramps" were suffering cramps at the time and couldn't say or type "clamps" as they were doubled over at the time?????


Just when we thought it was safe to go back in the water..... after about 20 days of nothing on the threat detector.... bang! Back in business.... No No No. But I did have three sash cramps off the wall Sunday in a glueing frenzy. Stuck three bits of timber in 'em and cramped 'em up tight till the glue squeezed out and ran onto the T-bars of the cramps under.... then I tramped back to the house... looking for a red....

[Shedhand]

Truth to tell, I've only ever heard the word 'cramp' used in relation to furniture making and the laying of flooring.

Sash Cramp used to pull a (table, chair or settee) frame together to facilitate gluing;

and

Flooring Cramp. If you say a space is cramped you imply it is tight. Flooring Cramps are used to pull floorboards together tightly until nailing is complete.

Towmayters tomartoes? <shrugs, who really cares. We know what we mean> :cool:

[Shedhand]

...... (falls & dies)You haven't been hangin around Sheddie have you????? :confused:

[Barry_White]

Have a look here.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Cramps

[MurrayD99]

You haven't been hangin around Sheddie have you????? :confused:

Just flying in loose formation..... :D How're your sash cramps mate?

[Shedhand]

Just flying in loose formation..... :D How're your sash cramps mate?thank the gods they aren't called SLASH Cramps else I'd be in real trouble.... got the plumber back on the job.

[toogreen]

In advance, sorry soundman,

Practical Carpenter and Joiner, The - Edited by N. W. Kay - Odhams Press, London - Reprinted 1948
Sash Cramps, G-Cramps

Handyman's Complete Carpentry Guide, The - Andrew Waugh - The Argus, Melbourne - No Date, but looks 50's
Sash Cramps - Nothing more

Reader's Digest Do-It-Yourself Manual, The - Reader's Digest - Sydney - 1965
Sash, T-Bar, Floor, Mitre Cramps, G-cramps(C-clamps) - All Page 67.
'Clamp waste timber to board...', 'Clamp block at an angle..." - Page 25
(Is this some half-translated american book?)

How to Work With Tools & Wood - Edited by Fred Gross, Stanley Tools, New York - Reprinted 1955
C-clamp, Bar clamp. Then I found:-
'...Cabinetmakers' clamps, carriagemakers' clamps, hand screws, vises, wedges, cramps and tourniquets of string or rope.'

When I was about 8 or so I asked my grandad (gone 30 years) which should I use, clamp or cramp, 'cause he used both words. He said "John, If you've lost it again its a clamp, if its too heavy for you to lift its a cramp. Now go and see if you can find it." That helps heaps dunnit.

[Shedhand]

..Remember The Pope's dovetails;)Ssshhhh! Don't mention the war... ;)

[MurrayD99]

Ssshhhh! Don't mention the war... ;)

Be very, very quiet.......:D

[soundman]

The Carpenter and Joiners Assistant.
by James Newlands bourough engineer of liverpool
published by Blackie and Son
1862

Clamp...an instrument made of wood or metal, with a screw at one end, used to hold pieces of wood together while the glue hardens...........

Cramp.... a piece of iron bent at the ends used to hold together pieces of timber, stone , ect. else where shows picture and explanation of use of cramp.
Its like a staple


It occurs to me the clamp / cramp thing goes way back probaly a liverpool V Glassgow thing. Like the sydney V melbourne thing but Oh so much worse.

In the north the old style toungue persisted much longer.
The use of words like Thee, thou, yonder........ in many areas were still in common use in the 40's & 50's. & "those of education " in the north looked down on the south as being uncooth and uneducated because the used the "modern english"

My father who was educated in the shipyards of liverpool used the word clamp.

I'd be interested to see if anybody had a " serious" publication of similar vintage to The Newlands text. Either Liverpool or Glassgow... or other.

cheers

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I've searched 76 forum pages, in vain, trying to find a holding device for use with a drill press. Can anyone direct me to a drawing of a home made cramping device for drilling small pieces? Someting the size, of say, a pen blank.
If my memory is right it's simplly a couple of hinged slats, but before making that I'd like to be sure if some safety aspect may need consideration.

How'd I miss this? I guess a month late is better than never... :o

Here's a jig that I use for pen-blanks on a drill-press: 3rd photo in the 4th post. (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=29236) Construction should be fairly obvious from the photo...

(Sheesh! 4 pages and only 4 posts addressing the original question. [shakes head])

[steb]

"Clamp: a piece of wood fixed to the end of a board, by mortice and tenon or groove and tongue, so that the fibres of the one piece thus fixed, traverse those of the board and by this means prevent it from casting; the piece at the end is called a clamp and the board is said to be clamped"
p167 The mechanics companion Peter Nicholson 1831
NB casting=warping

In the preface he states that the terminology used is that of workmen of London.

I only have a scanned version of this so cant search it but can find no other use of clamp in a quick peruse. Cramp is used once in carpentry section but it is not clear what sort of dongle he is referring to. For a reference point some terminology is clearly different to our usage eg side hook instead of bench hook supporting soundmans idea that the uses may to some extent reflect geographical origin.

[BobL]

The Robert Wearing book I got for Xmas on "making woodworking aids and devices" has an index. The terms Cramp is index 12 times, while the term Clamp is indexed once. They seem to be used interchangeably.

Cheers

[soundman]

It's interesting to see that a significant number of Australian texts particularly those government supplied in NSW and VIC in the post war period almost exclusivly use the word "cramp"...... this isn't surprising because most of them were written or edited by the same dude.... or are derived from texts he wrote....I must dig up the name.

He was probaly a Scotsman.

In the post war period its interesting how far one mans influence could travel.
for example.
My father did his apprenticeship in a shipyard in liverpool and worked there before and after he was in the navy during WW2.
Some of his references are wrtitten by the chief engineer of that shipyard.
Interestingly may father also had references written by the chief engineer of a brisbane shipyard he worked at....... same surname.... brother? son? I wish I knew.
But a chief engineer of a large shipyard had considerable influence on what things were called and how things were done.... one would expect his son or brother would use the same language and methods.
Thus an entire technical culture could have been transplanted with one man into another country

Thus if a dogmatic scotsman became influential in NSW and VIC using the word cramp.... and an equaly dogmatic livepudlian in QLD using the word clamp..... could explain the cultrual diference.

cheers