Setting up for boat building

[dopeydriver]

I'm sure its covered here somewhere , but if you were setting up a workshop for boatbuilding , where would you start ?.
How would you handle dust/fume extraction ?.
What would be the foundation of your workshop , before you got to tool preferences etc ?.
Rob J.

[Daddles]

You start with what you've got and you add to it as you need it. Seriously. I know someone's going to give you a list of tools, but ignore them (unless it's a 'buy now or miss out' situation). If you need some clamps, you go buy them. If you need a jigsaw, go buy it. If you don't have a shed ... umm ... actually, you can build anywhere but a lockup area is better (you don't have to put your tools away).

If there's something you think you need but can't be quite sure, like a thicknesser, borrow one or ask to use one owned by a friend. Somewhere along the track, you'll either get sick of borrowing it, or realise that although it was nice for a few jobs, you didn't really need it after all. It works - a mate avoided an unnecessary table saw purchase that way ... and yes, I have cut timber for him.

Dust and fumes? Leave the door open. Good old natural fresh air. Of course, having a dust extractor attached to your sanders etc is better, but if you don't have one and can't afford one, wear a mask (you should anyway). My thicknesser and table saw (a Triton :eek: ) get dragged out onto the lawn to do their bit (freaked my mate out when I vacumed the lawn I can tell you :rolleyes: ).

Big work bench? I've got an old kitched table I can drag around anywhere I like with a thumping geat big piece of chip board that sometimes sits on top to expand the working area.

Start your boat building with a set of plans and light heart - everything else you buy as and when you need it.

Richard

[dopeydriver]

Well Richard , I'm thinking of putting up something similar to a "Nissan Hut" , actually it is an RAL building , prefabricated .
And yes it can be set up for plenty of natural ventilation.
But I have a friend who has done a few carriage restorations , and now finds she has poisoned herself , through toxins inhaled .
I'm thinking of having both ends able to be opened right up for easy access , and a flat concrete floor , and a dust extraction system.
I believe that should be my basic start.
Anything to add on access ? , floor?(rubber mats over the concrete) , types of dust extraction ?.
What about tools that enable dust extraction . or setups for painiting that allow good ventilation or fume extraction.
I'm building now on what was the side lawn , and its a pain in the butt , so if I move and have to build , I want to include something for boat building in safety.
Rob Jj.

[bitingmidge]

Rob,

What Richard says!

How big is this enterprise to be? Your answer will impact substantially on my answer!

Dust extraction is certainly a worthwhile endeavour, however if you are building one small boat, then there are other ways!

My GIS was built using a few basic hand tools: plane, battery drill, cheap jigsaw and spokeshave. I borrowed a sander, and had a friend spray the final finish.

12 years later I have a complete workshop, but the PDRacers were built with pretty much the same gear, except we milled the timber on a table saw and thicknesser, and a router was fired up occasionally.

Using a proper dust mask with the appropriate filters will fix the safety issues. I do that even with the extractor running.

Cheers,

P:cool:

[mcchaddy]

Hi All,

I think it all relative to what you want to do and how you want to do it plus what you can afford at the time. I hate borrowing tools and I hate lending tools. Especially ones i have just sharpened........ yeah mate i'll look after it for ya...... famous last words. I started with the basics. A few hand tools, electric drill(20yo and still my favourite), small sander and a few other bits and pieces. A small table and a pair of saw horses to build on. Always used some form of dust protection. Usually a proper single of twin ventilated mask. Never liked the paper masks.

Now i have a complete workshop(at long last, much to the disgust of the better half). It's a 9x7 weatherboard shed to match the house. It has high open ceilings, great for stacking timber in rafters and running pipes for the DC's.I have purchased/collected a Bandsaw, thicknesser, table saw, router table, compressor, heaps of power tools and a lot more hand tools. All the big tools are connected to a DC and all the small power tools are connected to a triton DC(modified cyclone). None of which leave the shed unless the person borrowing them is prepared to donate blood if they dont come back in the condition in which they left. Shed has a U shape kitchen(with fridge and sink) in one corner with plenty of bench/cubboard/drawer space. I have a 1200x900 work bench on wheels and i'm about to build a 6m bench to scarf and glue py sheets on plus various other activities. It will in corporate a sanding station on it as well. Bandsaw will be at one end and the thicknesser will be at the other. This will enable plenty of outfeed support for both machines.

Its close to perfect for what i need. Just need somewhere to put the things i make. Anyhow, like i said i think its all relative. It has taken me a long while to get to what i have know. Having all this stuff doesn't make the build quality any better but it sure helps.

[Daddles]

Having all this stuff doesn't make the build quality any better but it sure helps.

Yup :D

Richard

[Boatmik]

Good stuff here.

Well done all.

All my comments are from a boatbuilding perspective - and there are lots of people including the above that are much more up to date with what's available and how to use it than I am.

The shed with doors both ends is great. It also allows you to extend the shed out further temporarily if anything big comes your way.

With dust extraction it is really nice to have some sort of hookup for hand power tools - that you can move around where needed - like you can spend serious amounts of time sanding wood and paint and glass - and to have a Festo (at the top end) or ????? at the other can save you from many hours of dust exposure. The Festo is pretty nice - not too noisy - which is the biggest flaw of the cheapies I have used - and it turns on and off as the powertool is turned on and off.

I think paper masks are really crap. I've never found one where I don't get a nosefull of dust - I just laugh at all the pics showing people in factories trying to look professional in all the right gear and they have a paper mask on their faces.

To keep dust out properly a rubber mask is necessary IMHO. But a dust extractor hookup for sanders powerplanes jigsaws makes a world of difference and means that no mask is needed in most cases.

It does generally mean that the tools you buy have to be a bit more upmarket to hook up the extraction - which is a downside.

BTW, a paper mask, as crap as it is is much, much better than nothing at all - so I am not suggesting not using them.

I'm prepared to wear a rubber mask when using a table saw to cut up timber because they tend to be single sessions - do a lot in a hit then they sit idle for weeks. Bandsaws are pretty clean in most situations - and are really only short burst tools most times.

But just start with what you need and grow as needed. The tendancy is to get very "tool focussed" and have the right tool for everything but as Midge says you can get away with very little and still build really nice boats.

Like Richard says - lots of clamps are nice to have - but a cordless drill and gyprock screws can make up for a deficit. Or use packaging tape like we used for your PDR mast. I've even seen decks put on dinghies and kayaks using the stuff where nail holes were not wanted.

Rudimentary clamps can be bodgied up quite satisfactorily. Instead of long pipe clamps - a long piece of timber with blocks gyprock screwed to either end and wedges cut to get the pressure. - or the welder's style spring clamps - cheap and invaluable.

Best regards

MIK

[mcchaddy]

Hi All,

I agree totally with the paper dust mask. Absolute rubbish.

One thing I have learnt from a friend is to mix epoxy/fillers etc in front of a DC outlet. Just incase any fibres are floating in the air they should get sucked out. Another good tip I learnt was the use of a heat gun to remove excess expoxy. You dont need much heat do to it and all you do is scrape it off with a paint scrapper.

[dopeydriver]

Thanks everybody !.
Well , if everything pans out , we will be building an RAL house on our new block (just do a search for RAL homes) , and I'll put up a basic RAL shed , that can be opened up either end.
The beauty of them is that they are modular , so its easy to take off the ends , add another section , and put the ends back on.
And I have a fair tool collection already , but I'd like a good solid(wooden) work bench , and a table that I can move around , on a concrete floor.
Looking through my old "wooden boat" magazines , and they show how to make a cheap , rudamentary clamp , ideal for me to get some practise again , before cutting in to boat timber !.
I can make lots of wooden clamps !.
Besides the boat projects , Ii have 2 magnificent wagonettes to finish restoring , one was built in 1865 , the other in 1890 .
I was surprised at how quickly the DC's filled at the Spring boat building school , and since a lot of that crap was epoxy being worked down , I appreciated MIK and Davids vigilance , in making sure that the DCs were used.
There is also a very good article titled "boatbuilders beware" in the Wooden Boat of April 1990 .Well worth the read.
Rob J.

[Daddles]

Check out my Sixpence threads - there are some home made clamp photos on one of them (probably the last one)

Richard

[bitingmidge]

Or use packaging tape like we used for your PDR mast. I've even seen decks put on dinghies and kayaks using the stuff where nail holes were not wanted.

like this. (http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19052&d=1139570650)

P
:D :D :D

[dopeydriver]

Thanks Richard , yes I saw your clamps , well done !.
Rob J.

[Boatmik]

Thanks everybody !.

but I'd like a good solid(wooden) work bench , and a table that I can move around , on a concrete floor.
There is also a very good article titled "boatbuilders beware" in the Wooden Boat of April 1990 .Well worth the read.
Rob J.

Howdy Rob,

For boatbuilding it is great to have a couple of custom made trestles the same height as the workbench - so if you are working on long lengths you can just keep moving out.

Midges workbenches are also the same height as his table saw - which have all been altered to match his stature.

Not that you need all that stuff to start with but it is often a good idea to work out where you are going in advance.

MIK

MIK

[Daddles]

I bought two cheap saw horses. It's dead easy to clamp something to them, it's dead easy to screw my infamous sheet of chipboard to them, you can rest a boat on them, you don't mind cutting them accidentally or tipping paint on them or driving nails into them, etc. Very, very useful and for the price of a pair of cheapies, you won't make a pair of good ones. They'll be the wrong height of course, but you won't actually know what you need until you start needing it. These cheap sawhorses will give you a start and an opportunity to work out what it's worth spending time and money on building - use them until they annoy you enough to build something good in other words. And, being cheap, they'll never be wasted.

The other really useful gadget in my shop is an old ironing board - instant adjustable support ;)

Richard
Richard

[mcchaddy]

Hi All,

Here are some photo's of the table i'm going to build. It is made from 2 timber I beams. Both ends of the table slide out and the mid section is stationary. This allows sheets of ply to be scarfed and then glued together over the mid section. Note the holes along the I beams for clamps.

[scottyk]

I am a first time builder with some experience and I started with little more that a hand plane, power saw, jigsaw and basic drop saw.
I agree with all that have gone before me, if you have a bucket of money allocated to tools, put it aside and get tools as you need them and when you absolutely need them.
I have used this method and it has ensured that all my tools are usregularly used and dont just get used once. I have friends who have taken the "buy before you need aproach" and they just end up with a shed ful of stuff they dont need.
Every boat is different and every boat needs a different set of skills and hence tools, so take your time and find a good tool shop that will be there when you need it.
I have ended up with a thicknesser/planer, electric hand plane, router, and a belt sander, thats it. The rest I have found mates who had the stuff. If you want to see my project see "some ones got to build it" in the Building, Repairing section.
With boat building that we do the end doesn't have to justify the means, we shuold just enjoy the process.
Scotty

[Boatmik]

I have friends who have taken the "buy before you need aproach" and they just end up with a shed ful of stuff they dont need.

It is not necessarily a direct correlation, but I have noticed that many with this mindset never get round to building something.

Which may not be bad at all providing that the tool thing is what they like rather than the building.

From years of being involved with people building their own boats at different levels ... when a person is nervous about the idea of building they work out nice ways to get distracted.

Usually in some sort of search for perfection. "Perfect" Tools, "perfect" workbench, "perfect" building method, "perfect" building space. etc etc etc.

Again there is nothing wrong with this - so long as they are happy with the process they are going through.

That is the biggest advantage of making do with what you have and buying stuff only when you need it or can afford it or can look at it as a "fun extra" - that is if the building itself is important to you.

One interesting example is on the Boatdesign forums where a lot of people talk endlessly about what software to get and what stuff is really cool. But when I go to their websites there are plenty of the coolest computer generated photo-realistic pictures of the boats they have designed - but no photos of the real thing.

Which again is OK - so long as they are enjoying themselves.

But I wish I could afford all the stuff they talk about and had the time to work out how to use it fluently :-)

MIK

[Jislizard]

Hello, I am slowly reading through the forums after being directed here from the Boat Design Forum.

Sorry for digging up this thread from page 3.

I am looking to build a boat, 14.5 m which the naval architect assures me is well within the abilities of the average beginner.

I will be starting from scratch, hence my interest in this thread.

I will be putting in a shed of some type to work in and judging by the posts, buying tools as I need them!

For a large boat like this, how much room would you need to work around it, I can imagine that once the hull is there it is going to be pretty cramped if I build it just big enough.

I was also interested in storing wood. A big shed in Queensland would probably not keep wood at the correct moisture levels, do builders have seperate humidity controlled rooms or do they just buy enough for the bit they are working on?

Concrete floor I am guessing to keep the moisture levels down, definately a power hook up for tools and lighting. Is running water necessary? A kitchenette sounds good too.

As I am starting from scratch I have the opportunity to avoid any common mistakes so any advice you can give me will be gratefully received.

Mark

[PAR]

I'm not sure which NA assured you a 44' boat was


well within the abilities of the average beginnerbut frankly, speaking as an NA and professional builder, this is about the most gross exhalation of the truth as one could imagine. This smacks in the face of a Bruce Roberts type of thing, all advertising hype and no substance.

I'll try not to discourage you, but a very skilled builder, with several small boats under his belt would be hard pressed to complete a project of this scope, let alone a novice.

I've built a few boats of this scale. The last was a 48' sailboat, which took 7 years to complete and tens of thousands dollars and many thousands of man hours. I also had the luxury of a large, well equipped shop with nearly every tool and facility necessary. Also available were several very skilled employees that could be asked to come by and help with a particularly difficult task on occasion.

Pray tell who was this NA that told you a 44' yacht was something a beginner could handle? This isn't to say you couldn't, but it would be the very rare exception.

To directly answer your questions, your wood could be stored in a shed, the moisture content will stabilize regardless of what you do. Keep it dry and out of the sun and it'll do it's thing all by itself. If purchasing "green" lumber, then consider a solar kiln to season it quickly, but gently.

You will need as much room around the boat as you can afford. Minimums for a build like this would be 2 to 3 meters around every side, preferably more.

A concrete floor is simple and easy to keep clean, but also difficult to work on and attach things to, which is often necessary. I prefer wooden floors myself, but concrete will work as will dirt if well dry, tamped and covered.

You'll want as much "accommodation" as you can afford too. Spending countless hours on site requires bathrooms, sinks, running water (hot would be nice), a shower is a handy thing, so is a garden hose. A small fridge for beer, though a cooler will work and of course electricity. You'll need lots of lighting and as much natural as you can arrange too. You'll also need the amps to run some pretty serious tools.

[Daddles]

I am looking to build a boat, 14.5 m which the naval architect assures me is well within the abilities of the average beginner.

You don't mean 14.5 FEET do you? That's well within the abilities of your average beginner, but if you're looking at 14.5 METRES, do yourself a favour and build the tender first.

Richard
as usual, I can't find fault with PAR's arguments, though the wooden floor surprised me

[PAR]

Which would you like to bang your head into . . .

[Daddles]

Which would you like to bang your head into . . .

What, and get splinters? :oo:

Richard

[Jislizard]

Many thanks for the advice and in particular PAR's warnings.

I am looking at building a Jonque de Plaisance Jonque de Plaisance® | Welcome (http://www.jonquedeplaisance.net/index2.html) and in defence of the NA they have tried to sell me the hull and deck kits from their shipyards in India or Thailand on several occassions. They didn't say it would be easy, just that it was within the ability of an amateur, and we all know they come with various abilities!

There are 50 of them sailing around at the moment but I have been unable to find any that were self built as most of the ones I am in contact with were built at a professional shipyard abroad

I am aware (not first hand) of the various drawbacks of junks thanks to the boat design forums which are also a great source of information. I just like the look of them and now I am not allowed to work on the car (my wife insists we get it looked at professionally as it is new) I am looking for another project to drag me away from wasting hours each evening on the internet (current company excepted).

Daddles: I have also been looking at getting their 3m jonquette precisly so I can practice on the techniques and screw up on a less expensive model. It will also mean I can complete a project in a reasonable timeframe.

I am hoping to sail the 14.5 metre boat when I retire, I don't have enough time to go on long trips at the moment due to work commitments but I have joined the local yacht club and I go out as a crew member each week. I have also made a few contacts within the club who have built boats so I will not be completely alone on the build. I have set aside 20 years to work on it before retirement, if I finish early it will be a bonus. I am looking at joining a dinghy club as well so I can practice sailing and getting to grips with the sail, however would you believe, I can't find any junk rigged dinghies?!? Hopefully the 3m will fix this but I might have to go up to the 4.72m version to make it worthwhile.

Tens of thousands of dollars is actually very encouraging, to buy the 12.5m version second hand is AUD$109,000. I was just going to buy the wood gradually and never add it up. if it is going to be as 'reasonable' as that then I might keep a running total.

The NA estimates 9500 hours of labour on the project, they also told me how many years that would take if I was working full time on it as a professional ship builder so I don't think they are trying to pass it off as an easy project. they have been at great pains to explain how difficult but they have also been very supportive putting me in contact with numerous boat owners and timber merchants.

My main problem is that the NA is specifying mahogany and teak but that is a question for another thread, I have already asked and received some useful info on substituing for Australian woods from the Boat design forum and I see there are a few threads on this one that will be useful.

I will be using the Hereshoff method of boat building, so plenty of epoxy apparently, which was why I was interested in maintaining the correct moisture content of the wood stock, does drier wood respond better to the treatment or is there a point when it makes little difference if it gets any drier (diminishing returns)?

Thanks for the advice, I will go as big as I can on the shed but at least 2-3 m around the beam and the ends. I will take plenty of pics but I imagine that 20 years would be too long for anyone to follow on the forums!

All the best

Mark

[maxwaterline]

RobJ, some very good responses here. I did a lot of work in a boatyard recently, although working on my own boat. Couple of things that I noticed was that there were a few large machines and plenty of hand power tools. 2 large bandsaws, one sawbench, one mitredrop saw, a large thicknesser and a combo disc/belt sander (this got used the most and second was one of the bandsaws). There was a lathe, small and large drill press and different sorts of welding gear.

In my own workshop a 10" sawbench, bandsaw (one from the boatyard), small thicknesser and 6" planer jointer and a mobile dust extractor. If you asked for the essentials, I would say the sawbench and the thicknesser. I would like to have one of those combo disc/belt sanders so add that to essentials. Lots of clamps

I have most of the electric hand tools, rarely use any of the sanding tools, belt sander occasionally. Small and medium electric drills with keyless chucks are a must. Power planer is good. A variable speed angle grinder with coarse discs, 24 or less, is very useful for bulk removal/shaping. Another useful tool is one of those anglegrinder random orbital sanders. Definitely get a good jig saw. 2 bench grinders, one with fine wheels, and the other with a coarse wheel and wire brush, is a good combo. Small drill press is useful. Heat gun too. Lots of clamps

One good solid bench, not too big. Roller stands, or planks fastened to sawhorses, for feeding long things to/from sawbench and thicknesser, is essential. Lots of clamps.

Other thing is I would prefer a wooden floor, even if it was exterior ply laid on concrete.

I've done a lot of woodwork in this shop, much boat related and plenty non boat stuff as well.

I think it was Richard who said get started and the tools will become obvious. More tools you've got, more setting up and maintenance there is. Don't need a large range of hand tools, practice lots of sharpening so you are good and quick. There's something very discouraging about even half sharp tools.

Hope this helps

Adrian

[Daddles]

Mark, might I make a suggestion based on the experience of a good mate which in no way relates to your situation but which might save some heartache in the future.

It seems to me you've looked reasonably closely into this act of lunacy (that applies to the decision to build ANY boat, regardless of size). My advice is to invest your available funds into BUYING something that will attempt to do what you hope to do. If that means you buy a second hand plastic trailer sailor, GO FOR IT.

Get out on the water and prove that what you want to do is worth doing ... and indeed desirable.

Maybe you've done this, which would be good.

A boat, any boat, be it a 7' tender or a 70' dream home, requires a hell of a lot of building. One hopes that at the end of it all, you're still in love with the boat and it fullills every dream ... bit like meeting that buxom blonde at the disco ain't it, only it takes longer with the boat (but is less painfull).

Seriously, building anything will take time. Even if you're a rich, retired, workaholic in need of a project, building this boat will take time. That building will not replace getting out there and doing it and I don't care how effectively you dream, you will never dream the reality of using the real thing.

Sooooooooo, before embarking on this dream (the build), buy an alternative and ensure that while you're building this boat, you can live the realitiy as well.

All that assumed, I admire your reality and please keep us posted so I can cheer from the sidelines.

Richard
and a rational reader of these forums would look at the boats I've built and failed to build and ponder at my personal aspirations vs the reality while comparing that situation with their own desire to build something resembling a backyard, pocket battleship.:doh:

[Jislizard]

Daddles : Agreed, I would be interested in buying a boat similar to the one I am looking at building. In fact there are around 50 of them already made and sailing around, one is even available in the Caribbean (albeit 2m shorter than the one I am looking at making) It is about AUD $109,000. Which seems a lot to pay in one go.

I am interested in knowing if 100K was less than it would cost to build yourself and they have added a little extra for their own time, or whether it would have cost more and they are selling it cheap to get shot of it.

I was thinking that if I spent that same amount of money over 20 years it would not hurt so much! Plus I would have the satisfaction of having accomplished a major project.

My wife and I have joined the boat club so we have been going out at the weekend and sailing as crew members, we were out in a 30 knot wind on Saturday with rain lashing down for the whole 3 hours, it was great!

I am intending to retire in about 20 years, I would retire tomorrow but my wife isn't keen on that. When I retire I intend to travel around Australia. I emigrated here 5 years ago and I have been to Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne on conferences a couple of times but other than that, just to and from work everyday. I haven't seen anything of Australia and that doesn't look set to change anytime soon.

I spend all evening on the internet at the moment, I am pretty sure I can spend that time better.

The sooner I build it the sooner I have to launch it and start paying harbour fees and marina costs and docking etc. I will still get to go out once a week but this time I will be paying for it and not the guy whose boat I am sailing on! If I can drag the build out for at least 10 years it should be nearing completion around about the time I am ready to start sailing it. I would also have to buy a trailer and a car capable of towing it. The longer it is being built the less it will cost me in extras.

I could wait 20 years and then just buy one I suppose.

However I can only think that the price of Mahogany and Teak is going up not down, so buying a new boat will cost more, and if I can't find a junk style boat, and there aren't that many around at the moment, I will not have the energy to build anything in nor the money to spend on the wood.

Ideally I would like to build as part of a co-operative, team sports are more fun! My wife wants to join in and my father-in-law is interested as well so I will not be entirely alone (not sure if that is a good thing) in the build however most of it will be just me in the evening.

Mark

[Daddles]

Yer a stubborn bugga aren't you Mark :D

Sadly, not a lot of boat building gets done in the evening. I don't know why, but it doesn't. Don't let that stop you though, maybe you're different.

I still reckon your best bet is to start with the tender or a daysailer, something a lot smaller. Even my wee Redback (at 7'6") turned out to be quite a build and you do need something to bum around in while building the big boat. This isn't trying to put you off (gawd knows we need ambitious people in the world), but experience tells me there is a lot of mucking about between buying the plans and splashing bubbly over the decking. I think I'd feel more comfortable if you'd built something useful and basic first, if only to convince you that all that sanding is worth the bother.

Good luck on the build. For what it's worth, I saw a strip planked Herreshoft in a shed a few years back (awesome beast), then saw the finished hull at a boat show a few years later (even more awesome). It's a grand dream alright.

Richard

[Boatmik]

100,000 is really cheap for yacht of this size equipped for cruising. Or even fitted out for sailing around the local harbour.

Be aware that the size of boats that people cruise on a budget tends to centre around the 36ft mark with far fewer smaller or larger. Larger boats are difficult unless the person has some sort of significant income while cruising or keeping well out of areas with developed economies.

Also there is the manpower aspect. I have no doubts about my ability to come alongside in something around the mid thirty mark by myself without too much trouble, but add the extra metres and it becomes much trickier. Everything becomes a lot harder when a few feet is added.

Try to have a look at Jerry Cornell's book that surveyed cruising sailors around the world about their real experience. It is getting a bit long in the tooth now - but though some things have changed others have not.

Best wishes
Michael

[Jislizard]

Daddles : I am stubborn, it is true, but also a plodder with occassional periods of intense activity. I don't think I am much different from the average boat builder, except that the average boat builder has actually built a boat.

Evenings in Brisbane get dark quickly but stay warm through out the whole year (relative to England). Without lights on I fall asleep around 19:00 but if well lit I can stay awake until 22:00 and still be fairly active, except in Summer when the heat makes everything too much effort.

I think I will take your advice on building a small boat first, if only so I can point to it every time my wife asks if I am ever going to finish something!

Boatmik : Thanks for letting me know what the cost of a finished yatch would be around. I have no experience pricing them and having seen ads for boats as little as 10K for a 10m and others for 300k it is hard to gauge the value. The Naval Architect has recommended I buy the hull, deck and cabin kits ready-built. If the price of these comes anywhere near the 100K mark I will know to just buy the ready made yacht.

The boats I am looking at come with a bow thruster in the 12m + above plans and the junk rig is apparently simple enough to be sailed by one person, we shall see.

I am picking the brains of the local boat club members but most of them can't understand why I would want a wooden boat when there are better materials around. The ones who can undestand wanting a wooden boat can't understand why I would want a Junk when there are better boats around.

At around 5000 euros for the plans for the 14m version I want to make sure that I finish the boat, I have no idea how much the matching 3m dinghy will cost but it won't be cheap (I did ask for a discount thought).

I might go off the junk theme and get a cheap plan for a strip plank dinghy to throw together to practice the technique. I can always sell it if it floats.

Mark

[Boatmik]

The wood side is fine - don't let anyone put you off from that point of view. As the boat is strip planked if you do the specified job with epoxy it will be equal or less maintenance than a standard production glass boat.

The junk rig is a reasonable choice - particularly as the boat has been designed for it from the start.

If you haven't I would suggest trying to get some overnight experience on a boat. Even Chartering one with some friends so you can get the feel of the spaces and the routine. Or see if someone at the local clubs need someone to help with a delivery. Try to get some sea miles if you don't have this type of experience already.

Generally inexperienced people choose their boats from the amount of accommodation so always tend to move larger, but experienced people will focus on practicalities of the the outside of the boat so tend to move smaller.

The other thing is cost. a 36ft boat will be probably much less than 3/4 the cost and labour of a 42 footer. Going up a size on winches and deck gear hurts a lot financially. I have spent a lot of time maintaining boats and a 36 footer looks like a toy next to a 42 footer when it comes to doing work on the thing.

But having broken the subject ... i won't labour it any more.

I do think you have made some good decisions already, but keep doing more reserarch before you decide on the size.

If you haven't been aboard one of the boats yet, try to do so - of various sizes.

Best wishes
Michael

[Jislizard]

Boatmik : you are right about the way I chose the boat. I was after a 16.5m boat (They wouldn't even consider the 25m as it has a steel hull ! I reckoned that my wife and I would use it regularly but occasionally my brother-in-law and my sister and her husband would want a trip to Moreton island with our 4 dogs. With maybe 2 couples sleeping on board and the rest with the dogs camping on the island.

However this will be no more than once a year and I could probably work it so that the design is only for 1 couple to sleep over and just enough room for the rest to sit comfortably for the 2-3 hour journey.

The Naval Architect talked me down from the 16.5m Junk to the 14.5m. The 16m has an estimated build time of 9,000 hours, the 14.5m will take 5,200 hours. If I do go down to the 12.5m build the estimate is a mere 3,500 hours (It would also save around 1500 euro for the plans and a fair bit in wood).

I don't think there is much in the way of winches or deck gear in Junks (or certainly less so I have been told)

I am glad that the wood won't be too much of a problem, I have been in touch with a cabinet maker and gave him the list of required wood and he just laughed. He said that even if we could source Mahogany, teak and red cedar it would be well beyond abilities to pay for it, hence my desire to find a local and readily available wood. Plus it would be nice to have a locally built boat built of local materials.

I don't know of any local junks in the neigbourhood, there is a 1.5m charter version in Thailand which does cruises. The Yacht club just does races but I will look into chartering in a few years time when I am safe to go out on my own!

Cheers and I will re-evaluate the size!

Mark

[PAR]

No offence Mark, but your desires, wishes, ideas and dream yacht concepts are not unheard of to us, particularly those such as Mik and myself, who have handled this set of questions repeatedly over the years.

Without exception, all yacht dreams that eventually evolve into real sailing vessels, either home built or other wise start from the experiences of the owner. These dream craft are a continuously developing set of criteria, ever changing, even being refined and constantly being updated. These "adjustments" to the dream are a direct result of the sailing experiences of the would be builder/owner. Without a reasonably extensive amount of cruising and certainly sailing miles logged, under your feet, making rational decisions about what you want in a boat is frankly, not practical, nor logical.

The best advise you can take to heart is forget about any specific design right now and work on develop you needs, desires and wishes, based in fact instead of speculation.

For example, you may think you can't live without an item or feature, though once you've spent some time at sea, you may quickly (or slowly) learn, that as handy as this item or feature might have seemed, while fantasizing about the life style, it turns out to be as impractical and difficult a thing to live with, farther from shore then you can swim back to, as you could ask.

It's a bit like entering collage. You have firm ideas of what things you'll need, what you want and how you'll approach these goals. Then you settle into your dorm and within a month, everything you thought was important is taking a back seat to those things that actually are.

Get some sea time, beg borrow and maybe steal some sailing time. Forget about the junk rig for the moment. It's just not a rig you're going to find many of (there's a good reason for this). Learn how to sail as many rigs as you can. The skills you get from this apply to all sails types and rig types.

Buy a small 2 to 4 person daysailor. Nothing fancy, just a simple boat, maybe a cat rig or a sloop. This will teach you boat handling and seamanship skills much faster then a bigger boat and not kill a bank account or marriage. Take boat handling classes, do some bare boat chartering on a None Such cat. All the while you'll be working on, developing and refining your desires for your dream yacht.

I've had clients come back to me 10 years after I've given them this speech. They're ideas about the dream yacht where radically different then when they started and a few have asked for a custom design to suit their now well cemented concepts.

So, before plopping down several grand for something you will very probably "mature" away from in the next couple of decades, as your experience grows, try to just live for the moment, enjoy and learn about your needs. Then with a reasonable "education" based in practical experience, your decision making about a particular design, will be refined enough to be described as intelligent instead of spirituous choices.

[Jislizard]

I hear what you are saying, whilst racing last week we were overtaken by a cat which was level while we were heeled over and being drenched.It was certainly tempting!

I am going to have a go at building a dinghy so that I can get out on the water when the time suits me and not just during the races, this should be a bit cheaper, we are looking at dinghy lessons and we know someone who is keen on sailing dinghies so we can get a few tips from them.

As the density of sea water is different to that of lake water, would I need any extra ballast for sailing a dingy in the sea if it was designed for lake use? Or at that size is the difference negligible? Are dinghies designed for either sea or inland use or does one size fit all?

Cheers for the advice, I don't want to make any expensive mistakes or even worse get put off what looks to be an interesting hobby!

MArk

[PAR]

No ballast other then a beer belly is necessary in a dinghy. The None Such I was referring to isn't a catamaran, but a cat rigged mono hull. This and the cat ketch, maybe a Freedom, will give you a hint of the junk rig, but with a lot less strings to pull and the modern convenience of push button sailing if you want it.

[Boatmik]

And don't overlook multihulls either - they are a lot of building and some are much poorer sailors than their advertising suggests.

But the good ones will extend your cruising range, give you a good feeling of space - but they do take a lot of building because of sheer surface area.

Try and sail as many different types of boats as you can and you will find one that suits you. Building a smaller boat to get on the water is an excellent idea. Don't make it too complicated - just something that sails well to get you and another person on the water and builds as quickly as possible - it is not the main project after all!

But still do what you are doing and get out on a variety of boats.

Best wishes
Michael