Dust extraction advice wanted

[GeoffS]

I have to move into real dust extraction. I am considering a 2hp Ledacraft FM-300. The Ledacraft interests me for 2 reasons –
o The extractor is connected by a hose, making it possible to separate the extractor from the bags.
o They are easily available in Adelaide, my nearest large city.
I intend to either put the entire machine in a cupboard vented to the outside or put the bags outside when I am using it with the extractor inside. This way I get rid of the fine dust the bag lets through. and you can see why the hose connection interests me.

To get underway with this quickly I will temporarily have hose on floor.

I plan to do it properly with about 7 metres of duct overhead with ‘Y’s to dropoffs to the machines but that will take time and I need some dust relief before then.

My machines are modest,
o Triton saw bench the main source of problems.
o Home brew router table with good dust collection.
o 4” belt sander
o mitre saw
o usual bench tools with dust ports

I would like some comments on:-
o my choice of machine
o the idea of placing it either in a cupboard or outside. I prefer the cupboard because it can live there. It can’t live outside because there is not the space.
o when I put in the duct what size? Immediate thought is to go to 150mm but will I get enough airspeed with duct that large? The figures seem to give me conflicting results however experience may be of most value.

[kenmil]

Wayne,


Batter up !!!

Play ball !!!
:D

[Sir Stinkalot]

Ok clear some space for the man ... back away there will be plenty to see here :D

Ahh ... just having you on Wayne ... I might make a cyclone myself one of these days :p

[Wayne Davy]

Ok, everyone moved back to a safe distance - don't want Eastie coming in here telling my I posting to close to the spectators :D

Uh hum! Uh hum! (Clear the ol' throat) - Ok, lets go....

What was the question again - Oh yeah - Biscuit jointers? No, thats right DUST REMOVAL!

Geoff,

I believe the 2hp Ledacraft FM-300 is the same spec as the Hare & Forbes 2hp I used as a base for my Cyclone. So, go for it. Your plans sound alright for the time being but you will find (as does everyone) that during use the suction (pressure and air speed) will drop off as the bags clog up with the fine dust. This is why I built a Cyclone. If you are interested, go to my thread a http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3749 and read about dust collection and my cyclone.

As for the piping, go for the 150mm (6 inch) which is recommended by the guys in the U.S. who I got my inspiration from. I have installed about 9 metres of 150mm with temporary, short 4" flex connections to my machines. I will replace these with 150mm all the way over time. That is not to say that it is not working very well IT IS but it could work even better with 6" machine connections - at the Saws in particular.

You will have a bit of a problem with air flow though. At first the 150mm will work better than 100mm (4 inch) but, as mentioned above, the suction will drop of as the bags clog. It would also drop of with 100mm, just a bit later (20 minutes of using the Router with a big Moulding Bit in my experience).

On your idea to put the Bags in a closed cupboard, you will need some form of air outlet on the cupboard otherwise back pressure will kill the air flow. This would need a fine filter to stop the dust coming back in to the shop and fine filters (1 to .5 micron) are I've found that these are very expensive in Oz. You could build the cupboard on an outside wall and have a vent (window?) to the outside and do without the filter but don't you or anyone else walk past it while it is running or you will inhale the invisible fine dust that is dangerous to your health.

The other thing you could do is go for the Pleated Filter Drums that fit on the top of 2hp units. These start at $400 and go up to $600 for Jet branded ones. Whats the diff? $400 are paper and will wear out and the expensive ones are a polyester blend. So, this just got more expensive. Solution BUILD A CYCLONE. Maybe not straight away but soon. Believe me, you will not regret it one bit. These things:
* Suck heaps
* Do not loose suction with use (no bags)
* Easy to empty (have you ever empty a Bag before - Yuk!)
* Actually take up less space
* Just plain cool.

:eek: (Breath Wayne - thats better)

So, totally confused now ;) Seriously, I hope this helps and ask any questions you like - post - email - pm - whatever.

[Wayne Davy]

Ok Ken and Stinky, you can move back in now. Everyone else, move along - nothing to see here.

[GeoffS]

Thanks Wayne
You've confirmed that most of plans would work.

The cupboard would certainly be on the outside wall with a large hole to the outside. Probably a louvre window which could be shut (when not in use!).

Building a cyclone is possibly on my agenda also but will take time. Is the 2 hp unit I suggested good enough for a cyclone?

Yes, I have emptied bags - not nice - is it possible to put a large green garbage inside them and just remove an tie them? I currently empty my vacuum into these which I then deliver to the tip's compost section.

This has all started from the fact that 1 hours sawing leads to 1 weeks coughing (cofin!!) - don't need a doctor to tell me that is not good. It seems to get worse as you get older - what doesn't?

Thanks again

[Wayne Davy]

Geoff,

The 2hp will work and is the minimum for a Cyclone. I am running a 2hp and it works great (You would not believe how great!!)

Building one is not that hard - I took a while due to lack of weekend time available. We have two kids 1 & 4 :D which demand lots of attention on weekends :( so I did most of the work at night.

I would not put a plastic bag inside the cloth bags as you will lose even more suction. The bottom bags are need to breath to maintain air flow.

If you build a cyclone, you end up with a metal bin under it. To empty: Undo quick clamp, remove bin and take it out and empty into the compost bin or plastic bag for rubbish bin, replace bin and do up clamp. Takes about 2 minutes with nearly no dust cloud (always were a mask in any case). The dust cloud you get emptying the bags mainly comes from the fine stuff stuck to the bag sides - this does not happen with a cyclone collection drum.

If you are coughing that much:
1. See a doctor today!
2. Build a cyclone tomorrow and fit fine Torit style filters to it (I have been quoted $200 - $250 for these but better than a long stay in hospital or worse).

At least, get one of those Pleated Filters to replace the bags. They use plastic disposable bags on the bottom so you chuck the whole thing. They can do this because the Pleated filter has about 5-10 times the surface area of the bags so suction increases as well.

Lastly, did I say this before? Build a Cyclone - you would love it.

Cheers,

[Sir Stinkalot]

Just a thought without thinking it through first ....
Instead of a round metal rubish bin as a collection for the cyclone woudl it be possible to use a 120L wheelie bin provided that it can be sealed correctly and that the height in the workshop isnt an issue. It would add almost another 1000mm onto the overall height. Its just with the new garbage collection system we have so bloody may wheelie bins I thought that the capacity and portablity might be an advantage.
Stinky

[Wayne Davy]

Stinkie,

A wheely bin would be great IF you have that much ceiling height. If you do, I envy you lots. The Cyclone with motor/blower is at least 2.1m high so adding the bin would make 3.1m! Great idea if you can do it. Just make sure you put non-porous foam under the lid to create a seal and fit a catch of some kind.

I have seen Cyclones using all sorts of things for the Collection Drum including those rectangular plastic storage units. Whatever works and is air tight.

[zymurgy]

Wayne, you mentioned the 2HP unit from Hare & Forbes.

They show two types in their catalogue, Economy DC-3 for $339.00 or the Industrial DC-60 for $599.00 (2 micron filter bags).

Which model did you use for Cyclone.

Gordon.

[Wayne Davy]

Economy for $329! I talked to their mechanic who do the warranty repairs and he said he has less hassle with these than the dearer one!! The Impeller's in both are the same giving then same air capacity so it does not matter which one.

As for their (and all the other coys) statement re "2 micron" bags - this is apparently a load of bull. The only time those bags will stop 2 micron dust (which cannot be seen) is when they are nearly totally clogged with dust thereby creating a dust barrier on the inside. You can read all about this on Bill Pentz's site which I have posted before. If you don't believe me, find someone with 2 micron "fine" filter bags and go up to the bag and hit it. You will SEE dust come out!! This means they are not even stopping 20 micron and above!

[Sir Stinkalot]

Wayne,

What is the difference between the "Economy" and "Tradesmen" range that they seem to offer on the selection of dust extractors?

The reason that I ask is that from looking at Carbatec's catalogue there seems to be very little difference between the two models. The only things that I could notice from the pictures were improved wheels and slightly stronger supports for the bag. I notice that in the new catalogue there is a difference in CFM in the 2HP range, but in the 1hp range the only real difference is price.

When I invest it will most likely be the economy 2hp model with the long term view of turning it into the Super Cyclone.

Stinky

[Wayne Davy]

From what I have found out and been told - not much.

* The salesmen guys say the motors are a better rating, the general construction is more solid and the bags are finer.

* The mechanic I spoke to at one of the stores in mention said - Bugger All and he would buy the cheap one as he thought its motor was actually better!

* After owning a cheap 1hp before which was absolutely fine and then checking out both price ranges in the 2hp (and 3hp), I bought a cheap 2hp. (Believe me when I say I checked them out)

I think that the motors on the more expensive ones are actually rated for continous use ie 24/7 but I don't think the cheapies are much behind them, certainly not for the dollar diff.

[zymurgy]

Just ordered a DC-3 and it's a BIG unit, I'll have no room left in my allocated small corner of the garage.

Must make a little garden shed for SWMBO to put all the stuff in that she tends to 'place' in the garage.

Also ordered the PT-205H Planner/Thicknesser. Should all be here in the next 1/2hour or so.

Gordon.

[kenmil]

I am puzzled. How can you order from Hare & Forbes and get it in 1/2hr ? They don't have a place in Melbourne as far as I knew. :confused:

[GeoffS]

Wayne

Thanks again for the comments.

I probably will build a cyclone but there a couple of other jobs need to be done first so temporary hookup will have to suffice for now.

I'm probably exagerating about the coughing but I can certainly tie 'sawing pine' to 'tickles in throat'. Strange really - years ago, (about 35 or 40) working with pine used to make my eyes and nose run. Then for many years I had no reaction that I noticed. Recently, having gone back to doing a lot more timber work (instead of metal - timber is much more enjoyable although it stretches my abilities more) I have come up with this reaction. Annoying but if makes me do the right thing - good!!.

Thanks again.

[Wayne Davy]

Ken,

Looks like they have teamed up with Herless. According to the back of the new dog-a-log:

HMC (Herless Mach. Corp.)
2099 Princes Highway
Clayton VIC 3168

03 9562 8866
Mon-Fri 8:30-5pm (what, don't open on Sat!!! Slackers :eek: )


p.s. Herless.... That would sound right. The boss would not be caught dead in one of my toy stores :D

[Wayne Davy]

Geoff,

No worries mate. Stay healthy so you can cut up lots of wood!
:)

[zymurgy]

Herless Machinery (Cnr Dandenong and Blackburn Road) have either merged or been purchased by H&F.

They were primarily a metal based machinery supplier but they have an ever expanding woodwork range. Whilst I was there today, there was a chap from H&F (Sydney) setting up a whole new display area.

So that's how I got it in half an hour ;)

Gordon.

[kenmil]

Gordon,

Thanks for the info. That is good news, because Carbatec is off my list of places to visit. Now all we have to do is get them to trade on weekends.;)

[zymurgy]

Ken,

Speaking of suppliers, have you been to or know about:

Woodworking Warehouse, Citrus Street, Braeside.

Gordon.

[kenmil]

Yep, I bought my new shiny Jet Cabinet Saw there a couple of weeks ago.:D :D

[Sir Stinkalot]

Is is possible to buy the parts required for the cyclone without the extras that are included in a traditional dust extractor?

[zymurgy]

Ken,

Didn't happen to see those trolley wheel dodas that Wayne has on his planer/thicknesser (he got them from Carbatec).

Gordon.

[GeoffS]

Somebody else has asked the question but I will repeat it -

Is there a source of blowers or at least impellers that could be used for a cyclone?

[Wayne Davy]

Stinkie & Geoff,

Short answer - NO.

Long answer - I looked Hi and Low and researched buying motors/blowers/impellers for probably 6 weeks. Rang a couple of elec. motor suppliers who had blowers and found out how much they wanted - LOTS. Starting at around $500 for 1hp! Note that these motor are way better and rated Industrial strength but I did not want to pay that much for a Hobby thing.

Thought about buying a motor and making an Impeller from plans on the net. 2hp Motors start at $330! and you still need to build/buy the impeller and blower housing.

So, the cheapest way I found was to buy the 2hp economy models from H&F or Carbatec (Timbecon if you are in Perth) for $329 (I talked them down as I had bought my Bandsaw a few weeks prior from them).

This works great on my Cyclone. 3hp would be better but I found out they draw 9.8 amps which does not leave much power left to run much else on the circuit.

Cheers,

[GeoffS]

Wayne -

Thought you might have done that research!

I will check on 2 or 3 hp 3 phase motors - they should be quite a bit cheaper and I do have 3 phase in my shed - that would be much cheaper to run also.

The problem with buying the complete unit is the temptation to use it and not build the cyclone!!!!

The cyclone looks attractive because by the time I build the cupboard and put a vent/window/whatever in the wall I would go along way in time and money to building the cyclone.

I'll keep thinking and wear my respirator (home made with a BIG engine filter on it) more.

Thanks

[Wayne Davy]

Geoff,

I believe 3 phase are cheaper and are a very good choice if you already have the 3p circuit. You still need an impeller and I was quoted $100 for one as a part of the cheap units!! I asked Gregory Machinery how much a Jet Impleller was (as suggested by Bill Pentz in the US) and they did not know nor carry them as spares as nobody had ever asked for one before. I told them not to worry about it as I thought it would be expensive being a special order from the US/Tawain. The guy said I was probably right.

As to making an impeller, you have to be very, very careful to get it perfectly balanced. I found a couple of stories on the net by guys that built them have a couple "blow up" literally and destroy the blower casing and a few other things in they guys shops.

After finding out all these things (and lots of other bits and pieces) I just decided the best and cheapest way was to buy the 2hp DC.

Another point. If you build the Cyclone, it will take up less floor space than the D/C. As for the extra bits from the bag unit, I intend to use the steel bottom mounting plate as a very strong bottom for a new bench. That only leaves the bags which can be handy around the garden for holding leaves/grass/cuttings/etc.

[zymurgy]

Wayne,

You said previously the the cyclone is quite tall when finished. After reading this I measured the height I have available, it's 2500mm, is that enough??

Gordon.

PS. Spent 1/2 of today trying to find a layout that'll work with my new toys (DC & planer/thicknesser) and two cars - more thinking tomorrow.

[Wayne Davy]

Yep, mines 2100mm

[zymurgy]

Wayne,

That is the complete unit, from top of motor to base of rubbish bin ;)

Or I'll have a 400mm bin, tad small.

Gordon.

[Wayne Davy]

The 2100mm for mine is from 80mm above the motor (for cooling) to the bottom of the bin (which is a small metal bin - used to be used for chemicals).

i.e. The complete, working Cyclone is 2020mm with an 80mm gap above the motor to the ceiling in my toy room.

If you have 2500mm you could use a Metal Rubbish bin and get more dust storage than me :(

[zymurgy]

Wayne,

Cool.

Question on cyclone joints, if I may. The main body and funnel seem to have overlap joint (riveted and attempted solder).

Would it have been easy to make a 10mm flap on each edge, one folded in, the other out, then these to flaps could be interlocked, belted with a hammer to form a tight seem down the edge?

I have no idea how hard it is to work with the metal, so I may be way off target here.

Gordon.

[Wayne Davy]

Gordon,

There are many ways to join the two sections. The easiest way I found was as recommended on Bill Pentz's site. This is to cut 40mm wide tabs all the way around both pieces and bend these out 90 degrees. Bring the two sections together with some caulk or glue (I used Liquid Nails) so that the seam is air tight and pop rivet the tabs together. Below is a drawing showing what I mean.

The way you are talking about would be nice but would really require a "Seaming" tool which are expensive and you don't gain anything apart from a pretty joint. Trying to hammer down the joint while keeping the two BIG part aligned would be damn near impossible IMHO.

Have you been to Bill's site at http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/index.html ? Bill answers nearly all the question regarding building these things. I printed out the whole site and then read them over and over again before starting building. Have a look at his FAQ.

Cheers,

[zymurgy]

Wayne,

Not the two sections, but the seams on each individual section.

Gordon.

[Wayne Davy]

Oh! Duh. Yep, great idea - I think you would still want a tool to do it. I just overlapped mine and pop-riveted. Worked a treat and nice and easy to do.