Cope and sticking large doors.

[JDarvall]

I've used a small set plenty making small kitchen doors for a while, but never on large doors.

I've made a couple of large doors, but I did it the old way with through tennons and wedges.

But, with a long tennon its clear that a regular coping bit won't form that deep a tennon, whilst coping the profile simultaneously.

Wondering, how these large doors are made commercially today. Are the styles and rails cut with the router bits first.....then mortises cut and longer floating tennons inserted for strength ? .......cause it seems odd to joint a large door with just cope and stick joinery alone (without a long tennon).....

Do they extend the tennons length out further with a few dowels ?

I know its ok with small doors not to have longer tennons, but with a large door, it makes sense to me to retain a long tennon.

Can you clear this up for me? :)

[journeyman Mick]

Jake,
a bit hard to explain without diagrams (and I'm too tired to draw anything then scan it, sorry :o ). Have you got a CMT catalogue? If so they have some spindle moulder cutters as well as a pair of router bits that are suitable. Basically the tenon is cut by other means and a cutter/bit which leaves the tenon untouched is used to machine the coping cut one one face adjacent to the tenon. the other face is usually square cut to fit in the glazing rebate of the stile. If required the rail can be flipped over for another coping cut but this gets trickier as you're then referencing off a different face.

Mick

[JDarvall]

Ta Mick,

I feel a bit stupid on this, so excuse eh......I think I get it now.

Was just thinking of those regular bits with bolts and bearings residing above the cutters.....couldn't see how the tennon would run past that lot.

But then I just had another look just now in the catalog, and noticed this other bit which I've never used before whose blade extended all the way to the top(without the bearing and nuts). Can see now how the tenon would pass over the top of that kind of bit.

thanks Mick.

[sinjin]

Jake another way is to make all the rails styles etc from your square edge stock then make your profile pieces seperately and add them after the door is assembled. This is how Standard Victorian doors are made.
In the past when i have made my doors i have done full through tenons. But next time i'm going to cut all mortises and then make floating tenons as i just bought this Mortise machine http://www.wmhtoolgroup.com/shop/index.cfm?navPage=4&iid=6056398. This is one of the very few machines i know that will allow you to do mortises in the end of timber up to 1 meter long. Such is the case if you are making Victorian doors like the mid,top,bottom rail where you need to mortise into the styles. Previously i used a Router that had a 90mm plunge so i just came from both side of the stock to do the mortises and it worked very well once you had the jigs.

[JDarvall]

Jake another way is to make all the rails styles etc from your square edge stock then make your profile pieces seperately and add them after the door is assembled. This is how Standard Victorian doors are made.
.

I'm not really shore what a standard victorian door is.....I mean, I think I really need a picture of the joints involved to really understand what that means, cause there are so many ways to construct a door.

From my understanding of how they were done in the old days(just books I've read on it), is the moulding wasn't seperate. They'd cut the moulding to rails and styles. Mitring the mouldings neatly at the joints, or cope, which seems prefered since less gaps are seen when the door moves.

To cope they'd drop a coping plane (which is what I'm playing with at the moment)straight into the end grain of the rail which cuts a mirror profile to the moulding used throughout. No problems with the plane running foul of the tennon, like my origional concerns with the modern router bits.



In the past when i have made my doors i have done full through tenons. But next time i'm going to cut all mortises and then make floating tenons as i just bought this Mortise machine http://www.wmhtoolgroup.com/shop/index.cfm?navPage=4&iid=6056398. This is one of the very few machines i know that will allow you to do mortises in the end of timber up to 1 meter long. Such is the case if you are making Victorian doors like the mid,top,bottom rail where you need to mortise into the styles. Previously i used a Router that had a 90mm plunge so i just came from both side of the stock to do the mortises and it worked very well once you had the jigs.
Incredible looking machine Sinjin. Envious I am. Can't compete with that.

There's another way I was looking at for jointing a frame corner sort of thing that has cope and stick moulding. Not for large doors maybe ( or maybe its ok ?) ....here.
http://www.jeffgreefwoodworking.com/pnc/curvecope/index3.html
photo 13 shows it down the page a bit. So he could rout the profiles whilst still having a large tennon. He just cut identical slots on the table saw on both rail and style, then just glued in a loose tennon

You probably already know about that method anyhow. New to me. Like to know what you think. Looks strong and neat enough. But also easy. Handy for the production line no doubt.

[sinjin]

I have used the profile cutters you are looking at and they work fine. However, the diameter of the cutters is not great. So when your cutting the end grain the included angle at which router cutters hit the timber compared to say a spindle moudler is huge. Ie router cutter dia say...48mm roughly spindle moulder 125mm. So you need to be slow and sure when cutting end grain and use an end piece of scrap timber to avoid break out when doing the end grain and cutters have to be as sharp as you can get them.
But as i said i have used router cutters and they work fine. But your jigs need to be absolutely spot on as there is just no room for error.
The cutters which allow you to do the profile and then you make a seperate tenon is what i would be going for. But if you are only doing light weight doors such as cupboards maybe its not such a big deal if you go for the cutter type that does the tenon as well. I say tenon but really its only a bit of a locater tenon.
All i'm saying is you can get good results but you really need to be very careful. On doors where you are only profiling one side its not so bad but doing both faces is another matter Hence spindle moulder do it all in one shot.
You can see from the supplied pics jake one side of the door the moulding has to be seperate if your placing glass incase of breakage.
But you can see from the pics at the bottom of the page the moulding is seperate which makes construction a lot easier.
That moulding cutter shown in the pic is also available from carbitool and i think there is a couple of others around also.
The trouble with some of these fancy cutters is once you do your first cut using the bearing guide cutters your datumn has gone. Meaning when your router first passes over the stock you can't then run back over it again. For doing the moulding for the VIc door its nominally 34x16 i found the best way was as follows.
Say i had the moulding cutter mounted in my router table. I had a big guide fence on top say 100mm High and maybe 1200mm long.
Cutter set back from the fence face enough so i might need 3 passes to complete the moulding profile.
I would cut all the stock for the mouldings in the lengths i need plus a bee's dick. I would then make another piece of timber (guide piece)and screw the moulding to this timber. This guide piece is longer than your longest piece of moulding required and also 100mm high this guide piece of timber would be say 30mm thick
I would cut a rebate 34x16 running the full length the same width and height as the moulding stock . Then i would screw the moulding stock to this guide piece from the back and in the place where you new the cutter would not hit the screws.
Now because the cutter is only 34 mm high and your guide board is higher. You can progressively take as many cuts as you like. Works really well and most imnportantly repeatable and for this reason i tend not to buy cutters with guide bearings as often as i once did. I still buy them but not as much.
Jake i'm going to make a Vic door 2.7m high in the next month or so. Well xmas and all maybe a tad longer. If you like i can give you pics of how i do it ..back yard style..lol
Sinjin


PS always enjoy reading yr posts Jake....Even if half the time there there for a half hearted #### stirr...
Sinjin
PSS About that machine...It's fully imported! Not junk Jake comes from the China. And as for the cost well i bought the timber for 2 none standard doors and the machine for less than the quotes from 2 door places.

[JDarvall]

I have used the profile cutters you are looking at and they work fine. However, the diameter of the cutters is not great. So when your cutting the end grain the included angle at which router cutters hit the timber compared to say a spindle moudler is huge. Ie router cutter dia say...48mm roughly spindle moulder 125mm. So you need to be slow and sure when cutting end grain and use an end piece of scrap timber to avoid break out when doing the end grain and cutters have to be as sharp as you can get them.
But as i said i have used router cutters and they work fine. But your jigs need to be absolutely spot on as there is just no room for error.
The cutters which allow you to do the profile and then you make a seperate tenon is what i would be going for. But if you are only doing light weight doors such as cupboards maybe its not such a big deal if you go for the cutter type that does the tenon as well. I say tenon but really its only a bit of a locater tenon.
All i'm saying is you can get good results but you really need to be very careful. On doors where you are only profiling one side its not so bad but doing both faces is another matter Hence spindle moulder do it all in one shot.
.
Ta. I understand where your coming from.



You can see from the supplied pics jake one side of the door the moulding has to be seperate if your placing glass incase of breakage.
But you can see from the pics at the bottom of the page the moulding is seperate which makes construction a lot easier.
.
yes.



That moulding cutter shown in the pic is also available from carbitool and i think there is a couple of others around also.
The trouble with some of these fancy cutters is once you do your first cut using the bearing guide cutters your datumn has gone. Meaning when your router first passes over the stock you can't then run back over it again. For doing the moulding for the VIc door its nominally 34x16 i found the best way was as follows.
Say i had the moulding cutter mounted in my router table. I had a big guide fence on top say 100mm High and maybe 1200mm long.
Cutter set back from the fence face enough so i might need 3 passes to complete the moulding profile.
I would cut all the stock for the mouldings in the lengths i need plus a bee's dick. I would then make another piece of timber (guide piece)and screw the moulding to this timber. This guide piece is longer than your longest piece of moulding required and also 100mm high this guide piece of timber would be say 30mm thick
I would cut a rebate 34x16 running the full length the same width and height as the moulding stock . Then i would screw the moulding stock to this guide piece from the back and in the place where you new the cutter would not hit the screws.
Now because the cutter is only 34 mm high and your guide board is higher. You can progressively take as many cuts as you like. Works really well and most imnportantly repeatable and for this reason i tend not to buy cutters with guide bearings as often as i once did. I still buy them but not as much.
.
I gotcha . I'll keep that in mind if I ever get a fancy cutter like that. Thanks for the description. makes sense.



Jake i'm going to make a Vic door 2.7m high in the next month or so. Well xmas and all maybe a tad longer. If you like i can give you pics of how i do it ..back yard style..lol
Sinjin
.
That be great. Love to see it. Always interesting seeing how others do it. Breeds idea uno.



PS always enjoy reading yr posts Jake....Even if half the time there there for a half hearted #### stirr...
Sinjin
.
Yeh, don't take any notice. I've always been too honest. I stupidly forget too that the whole world reads these posts ! :D



PSS About that machine...It's fully imported! Not junk Jake comes from the China. And as for the cost well i bought the timber for 2 none standard doors and the machine for less than the quotes from 2 door places.
Right. I'd still have to save up plenty I think to buy my own. I'm just not financially there Sinjin. One day maybe. Though I can still fiddle about with hand planes (don't laugh ;) ). I've got quite a few ideas with them I'd like to resolve.

[journeyman Mick]

...................................... And as for the cost well i bought the timber for 2 none standard doors and the machine for less than the quotes from 2 door places.

:cool:
yep, see my signature line. :D

Mick

[JDarvall]

That Ford bloke....... he was a salesman wasn't he ?

Right !....I better pull my finger out. Tell the misses she can't do what she wants to do anymore so she has to look after the kids full time. Risk being a 'bad father' and not spend any more time with my kids. Take out a loan so I can buy all this machinery etc etc etc etc thats needed to start up a business, using the house. Advertise the crap out of myself. Get competitive with the locals. Make enough hopefully to cover the loanssssss. Let all me planes get covered in dust and rust. Hopefully not spend many years fighting over the kids, living by myself sexually frustrated........but thats ok, cause I can cuddle up to my machinery every night, and make what I've always wanted ....machine made fine furniture (sniff) :rolleyes: :D ......

Poor bugger me eh. That Ford bloke was a salesman I think. Life ant that simple IMO. I should have got the snip when I was 18. :D

[journeyman Mick]

Jake,
I reckon it's a given that you are having more fun woodworking than me :rolleyes: (although I'm probably making more money). Commercial pressures mean I make chipboard boxes (kitchens) but it does mean I can afford to buy machines which hopefully will make it possible for me to one day make money doing solid timber work. My signature line should be read in a commercial context. (But you could always consider selling some of your offspring in order to buy more toys :eek: ;) )

Mick