Domino coming to the US

[Honorary Bloke]

Well, Herr Doktor Festool has finally gotten around to admitting that yes, he might actually try to sell the Domino in the US market. :rolleyes: Announced now to be available 1st April . Base price (introductory) is said to be around US$700. With all accessories and Dominoes, should come in just under US$1000.

What's funny is that all the "he said, she said" debate that took place here earlier has commenced on US forums. It will be interesting to see if the ones crying loudest now about "costs too much and nothing but a biscuit joiner anyway" end up changing their tune later on (can you say Lignum?). :D :D

(I've already placed my order. :) )

[martrix]

USD$1000 = AUD$1277.

If thats what the complete kit costs you, then think yourself lucky. Here, AUD$1200 will only get you the Domino by itself. USD$1290 for the complete kit here.

[Honorary Bloke]

Yeah, I figured that out and was a bit surprised. I think you ought to write your Member in protest. :D

[Lignum]

Howdy Bob:D :D :D You are finally going to get your very own brand new pleasure machine. But the realease date of 1st of April concerns me. I will be interested to see if their are design changes re: "adjustable pin" distance setting

[martrix]

Howdy Bob:D :D :D You are finally going to get your very own brand new pleasure machine. But the realease date of 1st of April concerns me. I will be interested to see if their are design changes re: "adjustable pin" distance setting
Are you talking about the pin that is set in the tool?
The minimum distance of 25mm or 1" from the outer edges is a little too much at times. It would be good if you could make it less, like say 12mm or 1/2".

[Lignum]

Howdy to you Martix:D I have posted this a few times before and in my opinion a "Major" design flaw with the Domino.

Using the Dominos inbuild pin on the edge of a door stile (or chair leg/rail etc) cuts the center of the mortice at 37.5mm (regardless of the size of the bit being used) which = the center of a whopping 75mm rail. All the doors/frames, chair leg/rails i make (and 97.2% of other furniture makers) are between 40 - 65mm in width, which makes the pin usless. I have to "mark out" all the Stile/leg settings:(

The pin needs to be moved in around 15- 17mm (around the same spot as the little rubber discs)

The centering jig goes down to around 30mm, so why dosnt the pin distance = the minimun centering distance? (which is around 17mm closer)

It has to have been a major oversight from the festool R&D team because its Soooooooooo frustrating because it just "dosnt work"

[martrix]

Howdy to you Martix:D I have posted this a few times before and in my opinion a "Major" design flaw with the domino. Using the inbuild adjustable pin on Domi on the edge of a door stile brings the center of the mortice at 37mm which = the center of a 74mm rail:( All the doors/frame i make are between 40 - 65mm in width, which makes the pin usless. I have to mark out all the Stile settings:( The pin needs to be moved in around 15mm (to the same spot the little rubber discs are) It has the have been a major oversight from the festool r&d team as its soooooooooo frustrating because it just dosnt "work"

Yeah thats the first thing I discovered with it when I used it on some drawers.
The pin setting was to far from the edge, so I thought no worries Ill just use the adjustable cross stops. Quickly discovered that it wasn't really possible unless you take off one side of the stop, then change it back yadda yadda pain in the A.

I guess the only instant solution at the moment is like you said, get the pencil out, dial in a little slack and on your way:D .

I agree with you about it being a design flaw. Apart from that, is incredibly well designed and constructed, a bizarre little machine indeed.

I used it on like a 30degree day and it seemed to get very hot. Have you noticed that? It was only in MDF.

[Lignum]

I guess the only instant solution at the moment is like you said, get the pencil out, dial in a little slack and on your way:D .. Ive taken to cutting legs/stiles 15mm longer and Dominoing them them trimming off the excess....:( its the quickest way:)


I agree with you about it being a design flaw. Apart from that, is incredibly well designed and constructed, a bizarre little machine indeed.

I used it on like a 30degree day and it seemed to get very hot. Have you noticed that? It was only in MDF.

Im so glad you have joined the Dommi fraterity. Its amazing how your construction practices and design ideas will now change just to suit her. And the heat is the same with mine. I think its the pendulum action. It dont bother me. I have a 8"Fein random orbital and wow, after 5 min on a hot day its "realy" cooking:D

[MurrayD99]

USD$1000 = AUD$1277.

If thats what the complete kit costs you, then think yourself lucky. Here, AUD$1200 will only get you the Domino by itself. USD$1290 for the complete kit here.

Yes, but it will only be 110v. Half the power of the OZ version I guess:rolleyes:

[Honorary Bloke]

Yes, but it will only be 110v. Half the power of the OZ version I guess:rolleyes:

Then it should be half the price. :rolleyes: We're being robbed. :D

Bet you it will still be calibrated for metric but the manual will express imperial and always be just a touch off. ;)

[patr]

Excellent news Bob but I fear that George Wya beat you to the announcement at yesterdays White House briefing:

"My fellow Woodworkians today I heard that it will soon be possible for you to buy the Fistool Dominator This technical wonder was designed in the USA by Americans for Americans but we wanted it developed and testicled in the third world such as Yurop and Osterlasia. They have done just that without hurting themselves on the sharp bits and have paid for all the R and D costs so that Rumsfeld Enterprises, the importers, can sell them here for less than they pay! God Bless er where are we today Condie?"

:D
Hope you have as much fun with it as we have over the last few months

Regards
Pat and the Guardian of the Valley

[Flowboy]

Congrats Bob,

Register it for a residents visa immediately and start teaching it American history in preparation for a green card!! Like Lignum, with a release date of 04/01, I'm suspicious.
My understanding for the delay is that there was considerable lobbying by US tool manufacturers regarding the impact on their market share. Go prove 'em right buddy.:D

Regards

The Mad Man

[Honorary Bloke]

Hope you have as much fun with it as we have over the last few months


I hope to. The wait is killing me. I have so many projects just simmering, anticipating the arrival of my very own Domi. I'm not surprised that Dubyah took credit for it, after all he needs for something to go right. :o


Register it for a residents visa immediately and start teaching it American history in preparation for a green card!! Like Lignum, with a release date of 04/01, I'm suspicious.
My understanding for the delay is that there was considerable lobbying by US tool manufacturers regarding the impact on their market share. Go prove 'em right buddy.:D

Rob,

You should know that the stoush has started already over whether or not Domi is a real tool or an evil plot. :D The biscuit joiner folks are staking out their territory, and the traditionalists are poo-poohing it as a gadget. And, of course, no one will pay that kind of money for a mere biscuit joiner. ;) But thanks to you, Lignum, Patr, Rocker, Martrix, and others, I know what she'll do. The most affected manufacturers here, Porter-Cable and DeWalt, will have a conniption fit.:p :p

[Powertoolman]

The best part of this is that I can finally acknowledge publicly that I've owned one for the past six months.

I was part of the Editor's Tour over in Germany this past week, which is where the official announcement was made. The coolest part of the trip was that we were watching the production line build one of the U.S. Domino machines. I had glanced over at the production paperwork, and saw that the joiner they were building was already tagged with my name. I found it quite thrilling to watch them build my own personal Domino. So now I have one for the garage and one for the basement. Eat your heart out Bob. :p

[Rocker]

Powertoolman,

Does the American version have scales graduated in millimetres, or have they been converted to inches, and are the cutters the same as ours, i.e. 5, 6, 8, and 10 mm? Or have they produced them in fractions of an inch? Knowing the obstinate refusal of most American woodworkers to learn anything about the metric system, I imagine that metric scales might deter a lot of buyers over there.

Rocker

[Groggy]

Bob,

you failed to correctly note the "release" date - 01 April 2007.


You're the victim of a cruel and early April fool's hoax, sorry to break the news to you.

Bwahahahaha :p:D:D:D

[Powertoolman]

Rocker,
No, they are still metric. However, unlike other tools that use metric, I don't really have much of a problem with Domino being metric.

[Lignum]

The best part of this is that I can finally acknowledge publicly that I've owned one for the past six months.



PTM is the Domi you have identicle to one that will be on sale in the States? If so, are their any changes from the Euro/Aussie model and more importantly, how far are the retractable pins from the center of the plunge?

[Honorary Bloke]

Eat your heart out Bob. :p


I was thinking more along the lines of eating YOUR heart out. :D :rolleyes: :D Lucky devil.:)

[Powertoolman]

Lignum,
To the best of my knowledge, there is no change between international models other than voltages. All Dominos are built in the same production line in small groups of 12 to 24 units at a time.

Festool uses the Canban system (from the word "sign board" in Japanese) which fits in nicely with rotating production lines where similar yet different products are built on the same line. Each tool built has a processing order to describe what it is and what parts it uses. This is how I was able to identify my joiner as it was going through the line. The exact number of parts are brought to the small production line (4 to 6 female assemblers working in an assembly bay with 8 to 12 workstations). When the job run is complete, the line halts until the next batch of job parts arrives to avoid overlap.

What's interesting with Domino is that every machine makes two test plunges into a block of wood. A micrometer is used to verify the size and placement of these plunges. The block is then serialized and permanently retained as a reference to the specifications for that particular joiner. So if your joiner is not performing within specifications after you recieve it or use it, Festool can retrieve the original test block and compare its performance to how it functioned when it left the production line.

As for the pin spacing, I believe they are the same. It is about 80 mm center to center (40 mm center to center of plunge).

[nt900]

Hi Powertoolman,

I would love to see the Festool production line one day.

When I was in Japan a couple of years ago I looked through a Toyota plant, and they use a similar system as well. Multiple models on the same production line, and each step quality checked by the next guy in line - yet again, using cards. Also, parts were delivered in a similar way, small enough quantities for some parts that they came by bicycle.

Interesting about the blocks of wood test. I am yet to see a Domino come from Festool (and I inspect them all) with any trace of sawdust in them. So they must give them a good clean before going into their Systainer.

[Powertoolman]

Interesting about the blocks of wood test. I am yet to see a Domino come from Festool (and I inspect them all) with any trace of sawdust in them. So they must give them a good clean before going into their Systainer.Anthony, Anthony, Anthony...This is Festool, afterall. Dust collection is Everything!:p

Actually, I don't recall if they used compressed air to blow out the joiners after making the test cuts, but they do connect them to a vacuum for the test.

[nt900]

Ptm - well I did not want to be the first one to point out how excellent Festool's dust extraction really is! :D

[Rocker]

I can understand how someone would want one Domino joiner; I couldn't resist buying one myself. But why would you want two?

Rocker

[patr]

"I can understand how someone would want one Domino joiner; I couldn't resist buying one myself. But why would you want two?

Rocker"


Elementary my Dear Watson, two possibilities.

One. An extension of Canban efficiency. Left hand Domino do precision plunge whilst Right hand Domino do elongated hole at precisely the same time. Ahso Grasshopper.

Two. In the Wild West two revolvers were always preferred. I think it is a natural progression and in keeping with the heritage of the Nation.

Both possibilities will be at the forefront of the Festool US Domino advertising campaign and Domino holsters will be the biggest selling accessory. It is thought that the delay in introducing the Domino to the US market was not due to the approval of power lead connectors and other safety related issues but to a decision on hip slung or under shoulder holsters.:D

Pat and Deputy Dawg

[Powertoolman]

I can understand how someone would want one Domino joiner; I couldn't resist buying one myself. But why would you want two?

RockerI didn't say I wanted more than one, just that I was getting more than one. What is even worse is that last night I got an email from the shipping center notifying me that a 3rd Domino plus Systainer of Domino tenons and accessories is already on its way. It would be too difficult to cancel the shipment, so I will deal with it later.

Pat actually has a good idea. After I finish the new manual, I will probably set up each domino for a specific task.

Speaking of which, now that I can ask this publicly, I would be interested in anyone's ideas for content for the manual. This is the reason why I first logged into this forum several months ago. My manuals go into greater detail regarding how to actually use the tool, so I would like to see more about how it is being used by actual users.

[Rocker]

I would be interested in anyone's ideas for content for the manual.

PTM,

You no doubt cover this already in the manual, but I feel it is important to stress how vital it is to ensure that the Domino's plate is held down firmly on the workpiece, both while the mortice is being cut and while the cutter is is being withdrawn from it. With a biscuit joiner, it is of little consequence if the slot is not perfectly perpendicular to the face of the work, so long as it is not more than a degree or two off; but with the Domino, even a small deviation from perpendicularity will spoil the joint. For this reason, I always clamp a backing piece of timber behind and level with the workpiece, unless the workpiece is at least as wide as 2/3 the length of the Domino's plate. I am not impressed by the efficacy of the right-angled plastic accessory which is intended to overcome this problem with narrow workpieces.

It might also be worthwhile to describe how to make floating-tenon stock to be used for through tenons in mortices cut using the wide settings on the Domino.

Rocker

[Powertoolman]

Thanks Rocker. These are exactly the types of things I am looking to hear.

Yes, After making a few mistakes myself, I do plan to stress the importance of holding Domino firmly. I think I will even add a suggestion that new owners should practice making a lot of different types of cuts in scrap wood to get the feel for the tool before they try it on their actual projects.

I think Festool is looking into making some other types of tenon stock (I think I heard this correctly) such as an outdoor grade tenon out of mahogany.

By the way I had an interesting conversation with Christopher Schwarz of Popular Woodworking Magazine while we were on the tour bus back from the Domino factory. Like you, I had previously been thinking about ways of making larger tenons, but after speaking with Chris, I tend to agree with his assertions that instead of a single large tenon, several smaller ones will be much stronger. The key to this is you don't want to excessively weaken the substrate material. There are some basic rules regarding tenon sizes for traditional mortise and tenon joinery, and I will try to incorporate some of this information into the manual.

My conversation with Chris made me realize that I still had a "biscuit" mindset when thinking and working with Domino. Instead, I need to be thinking more along the lines of traditional mortise and tenon joinery.

One of Chris' application ideas was to use Domino to strengthen a cope-and-stick frame door contruction. I like this idea, but I haven't experimented with it yet. Have you ever tried this? My thoughts are to cut the mortises before the cope and stick profiles are cut, and to make sure to increase the depth of the plunge to account for the overlap of the profile. What I don't know is whether there may be some unforeseen problems when routing the profiles.

[Flowboy]

Hi PTM,
I agree with Rocker on the efficacy of the "thin workpiece device" and I think its important to know how to make larger and wider tenons. Leigh also encourage the use of mutiple smaller tenons in their FMT jig, however, if you are going to make a through tenon which will be a part of the design of the project, you will often only want one tenon showing. As the domino as a mortise cutter is not really limited by the size of the proscibed cuts, its important to understand this and its application to design. Also, it shows the flexibility of the tool.
Encouraging people to test the domino on scrap pieces sounds a bit like teaching Grandma to suck eggs.
You should also remember to add the collar for usrer defined cuts. This I would think may be of more importance in the US where Imperial measurments may not (don't know the cutter specs) match the cutter or cut measuremnets.
I personally have not had problems with narrow work pieces, but thoroughly endorse Rocker's opinions in this regard.
Gotta say, three dominos set up for three apps. seems really excessive as one is supposed to be flexible enough for all purposes. May be shooting yourself in the foot demonstrating that. I guess its kind of like having 2 OF2000 Routers, one for each Jig you have.:) , not sure if you have those over there though.

Regards and Merry Christmas,

Rob

[nt900]

Two OF2000's, sounds like someone bragging there Rob :D

[Flowboy]

Yep, Ya caught me out Anthony. I'll go take my meds now. Just ignore me.:o :)

[nt900]

As Sigue Sigue Sputnik said "Flaunt It!"

Now I understand your plan for the loaner Domino, you just wanted a pair of Dominos as well.

Hey PTM, will your manual release coincide with the US Domino release date? If it is anything like the others we have seen come out of NA, it will be a great advantage for Domino users.

[Powertoolman]

Anthony,
I am hoping to have the new manual ready by April, but I have no control on how long it takes to go through Festool for their legal review. I should have had the manual finished months ago, but I have been putting it off.

Rocker and Flowboy,
You do make some valid points for making custom dominos. It might even be a good idea to describe how to use Domino to make some faux through tenons for appearance only.

Regarding the small frame guide, what about this gave you problems? I've only used it once to mortise a chair's stretcher, so I wouldn't have noticed any problems in alignment. I think I have some ideas how to make this more effective, but I would like to hear your impressions. (I also need to come up with a good name for it too.)

Two Dominos is excessive. Three Dominos is rediculous. :D I didn't order them, they were just sent to me.

[Honorary Bloke]

That IS ridicullous! Better send me one! :D :D :D

[Flowboy]

Hey Bob,

I've got an idea! Offer to buy a Domino from PTM at the price he paid plus postage and handling. You're both members of this esteemed establishment and Herr Doktor Obermeister Festool needs agents in the field. Perhaps Patr could direct you to his canine outfitters for attire similar to Simou's.:D

Regards,

Rob

[Powertoolman]

My father is trying the same tactics with me. It's that whole "I gave you life, you give me Domino routine." :rolleyes: His chances are about as good as Bob's for prying one of these out of my fingers at the moment. I'll probably loan one of these to my dad in exchange for him loaning me one of the mini vacs. I have only the CT22 and would like to get one of the smaller ones for quick and dirty work around the shop.

[Lignum]

Speaking of which, now that I can ask this publicly, I would be interested in anyone's ideas for content for the manual.

This is the reason why I first logged into this forum several months ago.



PTM, i trust you will give U-Beaut Forum some form of acknowledgement in the back of the manual for our assistance in helping you with content ideas ;)

[MurrayD99]

Hey Bob,

.... and Herr Doktor Obermeister Festool needs agents in the field. :D

Regards,

Rob

Bob's High-Altitude Domino Proving Ground... perhaps not...:confused:

Bob's Advanced US Domino Beta Site - yep - nice ring to it. :D

[Flowboy]

I have heard from sources that I cannot reveal, that Rumsfeld Enterprises will be selling several million Dominoes (at a cost of US$5000/unit and extra for dominoes) to the US Army to be used as standard issue to all front line troops. Three will be issued to each soldier, two in holsters for use in each hand, the third for storage and use somewhere else on their person, though no further details were forthcoming.
Apparently the idea is that after a bombing raid or assault on a suspect dwelling, the troops can rapidly repair any misguided destruction thus reducing any "collateral damage" that may have occured. The "See? it never happened" response.
"It's a master stroke of military strategy" said my source.


Christmas Fishes,

Rob

[Honorary Bloke]

I hope you two Galahs are having fun! :D :D No wonder I can't get a Domi, the military are gettin' 'em (good price, too). :rolleyes:

[manso]

Not sure if this is the correct thread for this observation, but here goes.
Just come from the SMC forum, where a poster had referred to a (dowel) joining system he had seen, but whose name he couldn't recall. I continued down the thread expecting him to be supplied with the information "Festool Domino". While that did happen, the first (dowel) attribution was in fact "Hoffman Dowelling System". It was a product that I have never seen any reference to in any discussion of the Domino. Comparisons between the two products and their mode of operation and outcomes may be of interest.
I should say, and this might be very obvious, that while I have seen and held a Domino, I have no knowledge of the Hoffman, also no affiliation with either company.
Regards

[Flowboy]

Earth to PTM,:)

I'm assuming you're flat out like the proverbial lizard drinking, or out of reach of the web.
I'd like to add to Lignum's question about acknowledgment. As you are probably aware, Oz accounts for somewhere between 1-2% of Festo's market and thus, even going through TT, we are often ignored.In view of the fact that we have contibuted quite a lot to your manual and that you are still asking us effectively to proof read it, a recommendation from you as to the the source material would help our cause of adding functionality to the Domino considerably. You would be in a position to demonstrate the amount of input Australia and New Zealand have had to the US manual, directly to Festool.
I have to say that in my case, I would be sad to see no recognition at all. I come from a Research Science background and in that field, failure to acknowledge contibution to a project, particlarly a paper, is tantamount to professional suicide or worse.
I know you are a good man, so I look forward to a positive response.:)

Christmas Fishes

Rob

[Honorary Bloke]

I have to say that in my case, I would be sad to see no recognition at all. I come from a Research Science background and in that field, failure to acknowledge contibution to a project, particlarly a paper, is tantamount to professional suicide or worse.
I know you are a good man, so I look forward to a positive response.:)

Actually, Rick is a good guy, so far as I know. I'm sure he'll do the right thing. :) And if not, well, I'm always about as a gadfly, mate. :D I was a professional writer for 20 years (both business and historical subjects), so I know how important this recognition is. ;)

[TassieKiwi]

Hey Bob - did you ever come accross a guy called Rob Lipscombe?

[Honorary Bloke]

Hey Bob - did you ever come accross a guy called Rob Lipscombe?

Actually, the name is familiar. What's his racket?

[TassieKiwi]

Orthopoeadic surgeon - he did an arthroscopy on me 2 yrs ago. Nice guy.

[Powertoolman]

Rob,
I’ve been sitting here for the past three hours now trying to figure out how to respond to you. I had assumed that Lignum’s original posting was joking and tongue-in-cheek, but yours clearly is not. This troubles me greatly because you are asking for something that is not possible.

This is not a magazine article, or a white paper, or even what Jerry Work calls a manual. This is the actual Owner’s Manual for a tool. You won’t find acknowledgements in an owner’s manual, regardless what the contribution was. (Go look at your other tool manuals.)

I asked this forum for ideas regarding content. However, there is a big difference between saying, “show us how to make larger tenons” versus, “Here is the procedure for making larger tenons.” Even if this was a magazine article, that is not the kind of information that could or would be acknowledged (Yes, I used to be a woodworking magazine editor).

The only direct content from this web site that “might” make it into the manual, is the PVC tubing idea that I shared with you. Even the Festool product engineers were intrigued by this idea, yet I gave it to this forum without strings or conditions.

Yeah, I was going to ask if any of the users here wanted to review an advanced copy of the manual, but I can’t do this now; not if it would come with strings or resentment.

[Flowboy]

Hi PTM,

A little terse I was. Sorry. No strings attached. The overall message was could you point out to Festo Germany that we gave a significant input to methods of instrument use and therefore we may have valid arguments for adaptations of the Domino. But you're saying thats not possible. I tought this was a two way street.
I expected that as a result of my post that further contact would be extremely limited, so what else is new. You have no Domino users in the US, so your comprehensive manual must have come from somewhere.
Just a reminder, that if you had not seen this forum and what I in particular was doing in trying to cut shallower mortises, the collar probably wouldn't exist.
I'm really sick of people not acknowledging my work and "intellectual property", so i think I'll just keep m'self to m'self.

Without Prejudice

Flowboy

[MurrayD99]

Y'know, I think we are so used to Owner's (bugr, what's the possessive here) Manuals that are either so scampy as to be useless or written in prose that makes no sense that we just put the goddam thing together and get on with it. This approach spans the spectrum from the axe to the woodworking machine to the computer. I am not sure if it applies to a 747... perhaps not - perhaps wisely.A few "white papers" on use might be useful. Perhaps Dr Festool GmBH might give thought to providing space for these.... und, credits could be given to each... This device is not your average powertool. It is expensive and highly regarded. The manufacturer could encourage participation or could take "distant" stance. I guess it is a strategic marketing issue finally....In the festive spirit of course.... excusez-moi for intruding

[Lignum]

The best manual by far that i have come across is the one for West System epoxy. Its sensational. It sets the standard that would be very hard to beat. The "older" Garret Wade cattledogs were also sensational. Shame the new ones are very ordinary.

[Rocker]

I have to say that PTM has a point. I don't think it is appropriate to make acknowledgements in an owner's manual. I was quite happy to provide what imput I could without expecting acknowledgement.

Rocker

[Flowboy]

A little terse I was. Sorry. No strings attached. The overall message was could you point out to Festo Germany that we gave a significant input to methods of instrument use and therefore we may have valid arguments for adaptations of the Domino.

Rocker, this says nothing about listing names or sources in the manual. If you read the original document the above was also my intention, being that we (Austalian and NZ woodworkers) have a very low profile in Festo's eyes. Even TT admit this. I was hoping that PTM may be able to help change this, but that doesn't appear possible. Seems a shame.
On the whole I am pleased to share information, but I object when other people make money from it without recognition of their source at least to those reviewing the work. Are you happy with people buying your CDs and copying them for others without a royalty being paid?
I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful, but Intellectual Property and its theft are issues I become very heated about.:) :mad:

Regards

Rob

[Lignum]

I'm really sick of people not acknowledging my work and "intellectual property", so i think I'll just keep m'self to m'self.



Rob you raise a very interesting point. Where dose our intellectual copyright sit in relation to posting on this forum?

Does a moderator know the answer?

I stopped posting Domino jigs and ideas a while ago because this is a tool that will take of big time soon as it hits the States and now that im realy getting into the swing of it, im very reluctant to share my new jigs and templates because of this very reason.

[Rocker]

Flowboy,

I am inclined to follow Ecclesiastes, and 'cast my bread upon the waters' on the premise that 'it will return to me after many days'. If I have some material that I feel is worth publishing, I first try to find a publisher, but, if unsuccessful, I am happy to post it here, in which case the information is then in the public domain. When PTM asked for ideas, he gave no undertaking to make acknowledgement, and so I feel it is unreasonable to demand it after the fact. Perhaps it might be appropriate for him to make a general acknowledgement that he received some imput from members of this Forum, but it would be overkill to expect individuals to be acknowledged for their particular suggestions. As PTM pointed out, he is not writing a scientific treatise, but an owners' manual; and the suggestions we gave him were not rocket science. I feel that if people have ideas that they feel are of commercial value, then they should seek a publisher to pay them. But ideas posted here are fair game, as far as I am concerned. However, I don't want to get into an acrimonious dispute about this, and I shall not post again on this topic

Rocker

[Groggy]

Rob you raise a very interesting point. Where dose our intellectual copyright sit in relation to posting on this forum?

Does a moderator know the answer?

I stopped posting Domino jigs and ideas a while ago because this is a tool that will take of big time soon as it hits the States and now that im realy getting into the swing of it, im very reluctant to share my new jigs and templates because of this very reason.This probably requires an answer from someone versed in copyright law rather than a moderator or even perhaps UBeaut himself.

If you use a work computer to develop something of worth then the company owning your time and the equipment can claim it.

If you use these forums to develop an idea or to post a pre-existing idea you may be surrendering your copyright and acknowledging it as public domain.

Whichever is the case, I suggest that you do not post anything you think you want to take to market and claim intellectual property over, at least until it is cleared up. I'll bring this thread to the attention of the owner to see whether he wishes to add anything.

The rules only state "You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB."

[Lignum]

Then theirs the other way, when someone blatantly copys someone elses design to about 95% (which is ok if credit is given) and very briefly acknowleges the originals existance in the early stages, but is cunning enough to never actualy say it was his design whilst sitting back accepting the acolades on how much of a terrific design he has come up with. Now thats big time wrong.

[Powertoolman]

On the whole I am pleased to share information, but I object when other people make money from it without recognition of their source at least to those reviewing the work. Rob,
You are making a rather grandiose assumption here, that the manual is chock-full of stolen ideas from this forum. I didn’t come here to steal anyone’s ideas, nor have I used any.

I came here to see what kinds of problems users were having with their tool so I could educate others to avoid those problems. A “problem” is not intellectual property, but it could be argued that a “solution” could be. However, the only two “problems” presented on this site that are remotely discussed in the manual are ones where I found them intriguing and I came up with the solution after no one else could.

I greatly resent the implication that I have stolen anything from you or anyone else on this forum. What is worse is that this is an accusation you have levied without ever seeing the content of the manual, or even asking what the content was. You made an incorrect assumption, and have now stirred the pot to a frenzy on that assumption.

By the way, you keep referring to reviewing the manual. No one has even seen this manual yet, not even Festool, and I have not asked anyone on this site to review it.

[Flowboy]

I asked in the spirit of mutual cooperation that you raise our profile in front of Festo Germany. You have refused.
You are saying now that you gained no benefit from this forum and I frankly don't believe that.
You say "you keep referring to reviewing the manual". Can you show me exactly where?

Don't have anything more to add to this discussion, so I'll do a Rocker and opt out. Have fun.

Flowboy.

[Flowboy]

Hi Lignum,

I agree with Groggy. This is for the Patent lawyers. In the interim, I think it safer to keep any new jigs, modes of operation etc to yourself. This forum is gaining a large international following and will gain even more after the release of the Domino in the US. Most come here for honest. frank assistance and join in the banter, but its too easy for someone in Europe or the US to take an idea, patent it and sell it. :mad: 1% of the US market could well make you a millionaire.
Unfortunately this is not in the spirit of this forum, situated s it is in a far corner of the world where we've only just learned to peel Bananas, but there you are. I think I'll be keeping my ideas to myself, or sharing with people I trust.:)

Regards

Rob

[TEEJAY]

When I bought my combination planer/thicknesser from Carbatec it came with a european two horizontal round pin power plug and a very poorly translated to Engrish operators manual.

I must confess it would have been a great asset if there was not only a properly translated manual, but one with real useful suggestions and recommendations made by people who have used this device.

The diversity of the Domino obviously makes it a candidate for all sorts of tips and jigs as mentioned and this would make a great book in it's own right. But for sure a manual that just gives good tips on how to use it and what to be careful of would also be very beneficial to the operator bearing in mind the new acquirer will also need the basic procedures as well and useful tips.

I also think it would be of great benefit if the suggestions of how this machine can be improved (ie pin settings) as in operation made it's way back to the R&D division for consideration to make the next one better (heck Triton do this all the time and welcome the feedback)

[TassieKiwi]

Rob,

Yeah, I was going to ask if any of the users here wanted to review an advanced copy of the manual, but I can’t do this now; not if it would come with strings or resentment.

Don't worry 'bout the few precious PC wowsers here. We all of us (bar a few) are happy to add whatever positive iinput we can to one of our favourite subjects, and we would be well peased to review your manual. As long as you're ready for a few cheeky irrelevant comments, bring it on maaaate!

Merry Christmas

[TassieKiwi]

?

I stopped posting Domino jigs and ideas a while ago because this is a tool that will take of big time soon as it hits the States and now that im realy getting into the swing of it, im very reluctant to share my new jigs and templates because of this very reason.

:(

Wondered why your enthusiasm 'died'. I understand that the tool now forms part of your livelihood, but it does make me a bit sad that you've removed yourself from participating. Have you also stopped reading other's posts, just in case you might profit from them? Thanks for sharing up to now, anyway.

I would'nt overrate the 'international exposure' too much either. I doubt if many in the states give a toss about us here.

I sense the end of this wonderful forum.

[Flowboy]

Tassie,
Wouldn't call m'self PC in anyone's language.
You'll get to see the manual, I'm sure. Who else with the knowledge is going to review it? Don't like "I'll take my bat and go home" threats.
Please also be aware that if you do get a document to review, it may or may not be related to the document being tagged as the Festool final Draft. You could just be puffin' muffins.:rolleyes:

Have a great Christmas and a dam*ed outstanding New Year.:)

Rob

[patr]

May I suggest that this thread returns to the light hearted but very informative banter that has made the forum such a pleasure to read and participate in?

I fear that the tone and the "I said, you said" direction it is going towards will end in tears and that would be a shame.

To those who, for commercial, financial, copyright or personal reasons do not wish to post in future then thank you for all of your contributions to date. I for one have learnt and benefitted so much over the year. I hope that the forum will continue as the font of Festool knowledge and advice and not descend into a slanging match in which there are no winners.

In any case, the sound of teddy bears being thrown into geographically dispersed corners is becoming a tad tiresome.


A Merry Christmas and a Safe New Year to all.

Pat

[TassieKiwi]

I'll second that!

[Groggy]

Moderator's Hat on:

Gents, this has been and will continue to be a valued and informative forum. Please continue to contribute your ideas and thoughts for the benefit of others.

IP/copyright
I strongly suggest that if you have ideas you think may have commercial benefit then you do not post them here. IP will usually be owned by the first person who gets to the patent office and this problem is not specific to this forum, it applies everywhere. If you have doubts then the onus is on you to get legal advice before releasing your information.
Bear in mind that people from all nations view these forums, and anything you post can be manufactured and in a container on its way over here in a heartbeat! These nations do not recognise IP and copyright.

The Manual
Regarding the manual, if you wish to have it reviewed then I suggest it be passed via PM to interested members. These forums will not allow copyrighted material to be posted here (read the rules) that is not owned by the forum owner or the individual who posts it.

Manuals have been reviewed in these forums before and there have been no issues arise because of it.

Joyeaux Noel
Le Groggy

[Flowboy]

Thanks Groggy, I think that cleared up a number of points, particularly regarding O/S manufacture.

Pat and Kiwi,
As I seem to have the least to offer, I'm going back to lurking again. No taking my bat and going home, just wait till I feel I can say things as I see them. When do you reckon someone will come out with a book;
"The Festool Domino - Advanced Techniques and Troubleshooting"

have a great Christmas and talk to sometime:)

[Lignum]

:(

Wondered why your enthusiasm 'died'. I understand that the tool now forms part of your livelihood, but it does make me a bit sad that you've removed yourself from participating. Have you also stopped reading other's posts, just in case you might profit from them? Thanks for sharing up to now, anyway.

I would'nt overrate the 'international exposure' too much either. I doubt if many in the states give a toss about us here.

I sense the end of this wonderful forum.

My enthusiasm is still as strong if not stronger than its ever been with Domi. Trouble is im basicly sharing that with half a dozen or so other owner users who appreciate it, and that that same enthusiasm isnt appreciated by the forums non Domi owners.

We all know just how sensational this is in the workshop and how it has changed the way we do things. It simply dominates. So i see it NOT just as a festo tool but a woodworking tool in general.

So in my enthusiasm i mention it in other threads and get all the snide remarks about it and even as far as getting told by a highly respected senior member to get of my soap box and stop boring everyone and to take it back to the Festool thread. No wonder i cant be bothered posting my thoughts and ideas anymore.

And as for
"Have you also stopped reading other's posts, just in case you might profit from them?" Apart from Flowboy and a few from Rocker whos posts are both terrific on the Domi, their hasnt been many others of late, so its not only me whos stopped. Their is hardly any posts from you either on Domi related practices latley;)

Maybe you Domi lot are also sick of the Anti Festo/Domi Brigade constantly having their dig and trying to shoot us down. Suppose wee`l all have to pull our fingers out wont we and get back to talkin Domi :D

[zuma]

Maybe you Domi lot are also sick of the Anti Festo/Domi Brigade constantly having their dig and trying to shoot us down.

Me listen to any Anti Festo(/Domi) sound? :D Nope don't think so. Oké only a little bit to the sound of my wife minding our family budget.

The Domi is still the first thing on my Festool wishlist, still searching for the right project/excuse for the wife to get me one :cool:.

[rené]

Hi all,

Wishing success to Festool for the introduction of the domino on the US market.:)

PTM, exactly what Roker and others said: that very precise machine ask for a careful operator when aiming the perfect joint particularly when working on small sized stock.
But actually, that's not very difficult: one has just to raise his glass only when all the mortises are done!
(Thanks to domi, it doesn't take too long).
Though not having use it a lot i tend to have faith in her and proceed now directly from dominoing to gluing without the ritual of dry assembly stage!:eek:
Advantage is that you don't have to take the pliers thus you don't enlarge, even a tiny bit, your joint and your are early done!
Another thing is that the grip of the domino is then so good that one could even do without clamps... Just a good whack to tighten the pieces.
You then, just have to sit in front of your new born masterpiece and congratulate yourself with the beverage of your choice...
After all it's all about having some fun isn't it?

[TEEJAY]

"The Festool Domino - Advanced Techniques and Troubleshooting"

:)

I think with fun loving co-operation and a team spirit you guys that have had this machine for some time with the desire to create, experiment and develop these techniques such a book could easily become a reality.

Some of you already have knowledge to put into print and market this book.

There is no better soap-box to be on than the one you have a passion for ;) - don't let the knockers dampen your spirit.

The book would have international appeal.

This could be BIG if you wanted it to be. :)

[Flowboy]

Hi Teejay,

You're absolutely right. After I wrote that yesterday, I thought Gee, ya know...
I already have a conceptualisation of how it could work and the beauty of it is that people contributing get recognition and royalties. I'll talk to some people after Christmas by PM, Email and in person.

Tassie,
Wouldn't worry about the the forum collapsing, within 12 months you'll have Americans teeming here. So many so, you might be lucky to get a word in. Of course it'll then lose its Aussie/Kiwi flavour and won't have the punch they expect or else you'll have to be so PC....

Oh well.

Returning to lurking,

Flowboy

[Groggy]

An observation:-

This thread has posters from NZ, USA, Wales, UK, France, Netherlands and even Tasmania (:)).

If the forum remains informative it is entirely possible this will become the "go-to" online site; provided it stays friendly and helpful (I'll assist there as required).

For anyone wishing to develop anything Festool/Domino related this forum should provide some great ideas. I'll make a prediction that the Domino forum may well become one of the busiest we have.

The only real problem I have with this thread is I don't have a domi, and feel like a voyeur every time I drop in :o.

(show us yer domi :p )

[Stuart]

Maybe you Domi lot are also sick of the Anti Festo/Domi Brigade constantly having their dig and trying to shoot us down. Suppose wee`l all have to pull our fingers out wont we and get back to talkin Domi :DNow you guys know how us Triton owners felt at the height of the orange kicking brigade! :D I can sympathise. Course, as Groggy has said - neither of us can afford one, as much as I could have really used one last week :(

[Flowboy]

Hi Stuart,
You know how to get me. And I work from home so pretty much always here, even over the Christmas break. We have ham and we have turkey, but no caviar (SWMBO has allergies) and boxes of dominoes stacked up to hyar.:D Same applies to anyone in Melbourne wanting to try the Domino on their own or my timber. Think of it as a good will thingy. Hope some of you get in touch at least.

Regards and Merry Christmas to all the honest, God fearing searchers for the truth. In Domino Veritas

Rob

[Stuart]

Thanks for the offer Rob - remember you were looking at something more formal like that a few months ago.

Will keep you (and Lignum) in mind :) (when) my next project requires it (problem is, from the sound of it, every project can make use of it!)

Merry Christmas to the festool forum :)

[Rocker]

(show us yer domi :p )

Here you go:)

The pic shows a mortice being cut for a through tenon to reinforce a 22.5° mitre joint for a zigzag chair. Note the backing piece to prevent tearout and to provide a wide surface for the Domino's plate to rest on. Actually, I have just noticed that the width setting is wrong - it should be on the widest, rather than the narrowest, setting, to give a 33 mm wide mortice.

Rocker

[Groggy]

Here you go:) :o ~shiver~, nice knobs :o

I remember you going into testing with the 'z' chairs, so how has it worked out over time? I guess it works ok since you are obviously still making them that way...

[ozwinner]

:o ~shiver~, nice knobs :o



Greg you need to get out more..

Al :p

[Groggy]

Greg you need to get out more..

Al :pYeah, I got "tool envy" don't I? :o

[Rocker]

I remember you going into testing with the 'z' chairs, so how has it worked out over time? I guess it works ok since you are obviously still making them that way...

Groggy,

I find the single through 10 x 33 x 60 floating tenon, pinned with brass screws or rod is quick and easy to do for reinforcing the 22.5° mitre joint. The chair easily supported a weight of 262 kg when tested by forum members.

Rocker

[Groggy]

The chair easily supported a weight of 262 kg when tested by forum members.Erk! Who was that? :)

Ah yes, now I remember a photo of a few people on the chair at once.


The strength of some joints amazes me sometimes.

[nt900]

Rocker - Bring me up to speed please. Is the zigzag chair one of your designs? If so, is there a design CD available?

[Flowboy]

Hi Rocker, if you're using 10x33x60mm, does that mean you're using your jig or the domino? If you're using the Domi, how do you get 60mm depth of cut? I'm sure you've explained before so forgive my ignorance.:)

Regards,

Rob

[Rocker]

Anthony,

Yes, the zigzag chair is my design. My objective was to design a chair that was reminiscent of Rietveld's zizgag chair (see http://www.eurstyle.com/item.php?item_id=67 ), but which was comfortable enough to be used as a dining chair. There are several relevant threads; do an advanced search for threads posted by Rocker and keyword 'zigzag' to see them.

Flowboy,

I cut through mortices using the deepest (28 mm) setting into the face of each 22.5° mitre. I made floating tenons 10 x 33 x 60 mm from jarrah to reinforce the joint. See http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dgdcspjt_109f2gnp8 .

Rocker

[Rocker]

Here is another pic of the Domino, showing the narrow-workpiece accessory being used to cut a mortice in the end grain of a rail. The accessory fits over the plate of the Domino, and has two adjustable jaws which grip the sides of a narrow workpiece while you cut a mortice in its end-grain. It is absolutely essential to have this accessory for doing this.

Rocker

[Honorary Bloke]

Strewth!!!:eek: I go away for a couple of days and look what happens!

Rocker--very ingenious as always. I will be trying one as soon as my Domi makes landfall.

Rob, Lignum--Hope you will find a way to share your great ideas, with some of us, anyway. Can't blame you for not wanting to give away IP if you plan to make commercial use of it, but I promise not to make a book (or a buck) from it. :D

PTM--I understand that Owners' Manuals cannot have acknowledgements, but I think all Rob wanted was a tip off to Festo that the Aussies deserve more of the Herr Doktor's attention as a market and that the world doesn't revolve around Europe and the US. :o

I started this thread merely to share my enthusiasm for the coming of the Domi with some mates who know how anxious I've been to have one. Didn't mean to start a stoush. I hope that this forum will continue to be one of mutual give and take. You blokes have had a head start that is going to shorten my learning curve significantly. For that I am very grateful.

Happy Christmas to all fellow Festoolers wherever you may live. :)

[Clinton1]

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=488710


The Domino is stirring up a storm and its not even over there yet. :D

[Flowboy]

Hi Rocker,

Just wanted to say that your post on Sawmill Creek was great.
Well done!:)

Regards

Rob

[Honorary Bloke]

Hi Rocker,

Just wanted to say that your post on Sawmill Creek was great.
Well done!:)

Was that you Rocker? I wondered. Excellent post. :brava

[Rocker]

I have to say that I find this forum much better organised than Sawmill. They have a confusing hierarchical system of threads and sub-threads, so that you have to keep returning to a thread map at the top to see all the posts on a topic. I much prefer Ubeaut's 'stream of consciousness' approach where you can just read through all the contributions on a topic in chronological order of their posting.

I was also flamed there today by a moderator for posting a link to my rocker CD in the For Sale section. I had not been able to find any prohibition on ads in their forum rules, but I missed the sticky in their Classifieds forum that prohibited commercial ads. I thought anyway that it is stretching it a bit to call my ad commercial, since I am basically a hobbyist, but I suppose it is their prerogative to run their forum as they see fit.

I am not sure that I shall bother to return there. I seem to remember someone saying that they also prohibit links to other Forums on Sawmill, and it looked as though they had deleted something that Clinton posted - there were some red asterisks in his post.

Rocker

[Flowboy]

Hi Rocker, I think you're right about the whole deal. In addition, they seem to like arguing for the sake of it. (not at all like me:roll: )

Cheers,

Rob

[Clinton1]

Sawmill Creek will not allow links of a commercial nature, nor will it allow links to other forums. The original members wanted to keep spammers out as much as possible.
The rules are clearly laid out in the difficult to find "Terms of Service". :D

I occasionally get caught out and post under someone's post.... much prefer the way this forum works. :2tsup:

I think it is interesting that there is so much debate on that forum .... much like the carry on that went on on this forum over the Domino as well. Festool Domino..... controversy included free in each systainer! :;

[TassieKiwi]

My enthusiasm is still as strong if not stronger than its ever been with Domi. Trouble is im basicly sharing that with half a dozen or so other owner users who appreciate it, and that that same enthusiasm isnt appreciated by the forums non Domi owners.


And as for Apart from Flowboy and a few from Rocker whos posts are both terrific on the Domi, their hasnt been many others of late, so its not only me whos stopped. Their is hardly any posts from you either on Domi related practices latley;)


Maybe you Domi lot are also sick of the Anti Festo/Domi Brigade constantly having their dig and trying to shoot us down. Suppose wee`l all have to pull our fingers out wont we and get back to talkin Domi :D

1.True, but sharing is still ok, even if there is no multitude.
2.True - only because christmas got in the way!
3.Indeed!

Happy New Year anyway mate.

[Lignum]

1.True, but sharing is still ok, even if there is no multitude.
.

Just to show im still up for sharing:wink: A little tip... When your setting the centering jig, disconnect the main body from the head. Sounds trivial, but gee it makes the task at hand heaps quicker and helps achieve better accuracy

[Honorary Bloke]

Just to show im still up for sharing:wink: A little tip... When your setting the centering jig, disconnect the main body from the head. Sounds trivial, but gee it makes the task at hand heaps quicker and helps achieve better accuracy

Your generosity knows no bounds. :D But this is just the sort of thing that's needed. It's why I can be miles ahead when the little devil finally arrives. :U

[lesmeyer]

Lignum is the man. Just last Saturday when performing some tests with my newly acquired Domi :U I could have used this tip.
Great stuff Lignum. Maybe one day I will get to your level of expertise.
Les

[TassieKiwi]

Just to show im still up for sharing:wink: A little tip... When your setting the centering jig, disconnect the main body from the head. Sounds trivial, but gee it makes the task at hand heaps quicker and helps achieve better accuracy

:wink: :cool:

D

[Rocker]

Just to show im still up for sharing:wink: A little tip... When your setting the centering jig, disconnect the main body from the head. Sounds trivial, but gee it makes the task at hand heaps quicker and helps achieve better accuracy

Lignum,

I use a different approach. I set the jaws of the narrow-frame accessory (PTM tells me that this is its official name now) before attaching the accessory to the Domino's fence plate, as follows: I place the rail, in whose end-grain the mortice is to be routed, on the bench; I loosen both green knobs on the accessory, and place the accessory right-way-up on top of the rail. I then close the jaws tight against the edge faces of the rail, ensuring that the readings on each of the hard-to-see scales are equal to one another. I then tighten the green locking knobs and attach the accessory to the Domino fence.

Rocker

[Lignum]

Rocker. The first few times i was doing it that way but couldnt get the accuracy spot on. The side hard to read scale is to hard for me:wink: If i was plunging both ends of a rail and the rail is flipped around, even if its out .25mm thats .5mm all up. Im happier to use both the center mark and the side scale marks on the see through plastic. Doing it this way when i use the digital verniers i can get it just about perfect