12-16' Multipurpose Boat

[KRH]

Hi all.

I am planning my next boat and your expert advise would be appreciated.

My first boat was a Mirror dingy which I finished about three years ago (built from a kit). This turned out very nicely and so I would now like to turn my hand to a scratch-built boat from a quality set of plans.

My requirement is a general purpose boat in the 12-16 foot range to be used for sailing and suitable for a small 5-15hp outboat for fishing. Either plywood over frames, stitch & glue or cedar strip is anticipated but other methods considered. I would like to apply a high gloss clear finish as I hate to hide wood (although pehaps paint below water line). I like a gentle sail and therefore high performance is not a requirement. So the possibility of using my existing Mirror sails and rig would be helpful to cut costs.

I am attracted to the Welsford designs (Rouge or perhaps Houdini) so if anyone has experience with building a Welsford design I would welcome some comment on their experiences, PM OK if yoiu don't want the comments public.

Similarly with the Glen-L range although I would like to pick a design from this side of the Pacific if possible.

All general comments or advice is of course ver much appreciated, as always.

Regards

Ken

[KRH]

Hi again. Forgot to mention that I am open to any other design, but they need to be relatively straight-forward to build.

Regards

Ken

[Daddles]

Welsford designs seem to sail well but my experience with the designer and from extensive research with other builders of his designs cautions me against him.

The boat I built was the Tender Behind. The plans were riddled with errors. Yes, mistakes can be made but these plans had more than I consider reasonable. Additionally, they could have been easily corrected but hadn't been and, when I reported them to the designer (politely), in three seperate emails (for different issues), they were brushed aside as of no consequence. The construction method is highly dependent on accurate cutting of parts - the plans do not allow this. The construction method is unnecessarily complicated and heavy - it's just his bigger boats scaled down ... and it's not a lot better for the bigger boats.

So, you might think, one person had problems with what is now an old set of plans.

Wrong. I've spoken to well over twenty Welsford builders over the years and every one of them suffered similar problems to a lesser or larger extent. I personally don't consider that acceptable, particularly from plans you had to pay for. Yes, I have worked with plans from other designers, a 14 footer and a 20 footer from David Payne without these same issues. I'm a long time fan of Iain Oughtred and have mixed with builders of his boats for some years, without these issues.

BUT, you might say, you managed to finish your Tender Behind. Yes I did. It was a far harder build than it needed to be and I could not have finished it had I not done a boat building course at TAFE and learnt how to make parts from the boat rather than from the drawings - for instance, the plank patterns provided were useless and I wound up spiling every plank. The sheer line as defined by the frames had an ugly reverse curve to it and I lowered it in the centre by over an inch.

But yes, I do have the wee boatie in the water ... it's the boat Redback you see mentioned from time on these forums. So, how does it work? Well, after all that ####, I expected to have a boat that did what it was supposed to do ... and it does sort of, pity that to row the boat on my own, I need to fit another set of rowlocks six inches behind the rear set shown on the plans. In fact, the rear rowlocks only work properly when I've got someone of the order of 70kg sitting on the rear seat (yes, I have proven this in practice). Normally, I row it by sitting too close to the oars and use a restricted stroke. Why don't I fit another set or rowlocks? Because the correct position for them falls into a gap in the ladder inwales and I can't be stuffed messing about even more with the damned thing. Goodness knows when you'd ever use the front rowlocks. How does she sail? It seems to work but considering it is far heavier than the Nutshell which is more or less an equivalent boat ... well ...

Lots of Welsford boats have been built. There are lots of happy owners out there and I certainly wouldn't argue with one of them - experiences vary. That is why there are also a lot of unhappy building stories as well, but people tend not to talk about these. I suspect his larger craft work better than his tiny ones but I know of too many problems with his larger stuff too.

My personal recommendation is that if you want a 'simple' stich and glue type boat, talk to our Mik. If you want lapstrake, go to David Payne or Iain Oughtred. Don't be scared of a lapstrake boat, a proper one does not take much longer to build, nor is it difficult. Planking the hull is only a small part of the overall build so don't be put off by it.

Richard

[Daddles]

Hi again. Forgot to mention that I am open to any other design, but they need to be relatively straight-forward to build.

Regards

Ken

Welsford's boats are not relatively straight forward to build. Talk to Mik. His boats are easy to build, elegant in a simple way and work very well.

Richard

[bitingmidge]

I wasn't going to respond to this thread, because I always sound like the president of the Boatmik fan club, which I'm not, but he is a mate after all! ;)

Twelve years ago, I had the same brief as you:

My requirement is a general purpose boat in the 12-16 foot range to be used for sailing and suitable for a small 5-15hp outboat for fishing.
I had lots of sailing experience, and all of the boats that seemed to fit that description at the time seemed inordinately heavy, like the Hartley and GlenL boats, all fine in their own way, but designed in another era.

I looked at Bolger and others, and fortunately for me, Michael Storer (http://members.ozemail.com.au/~storerm/GIS/GISplan.html) produced the Goat Island Skiff about that time. I was attraced by the thought of dropping in an old Lazer rig, but ended up building the lug rig version, and I don't know of anyone who has used the lazer sail.

Presumably the Mirror rig could be made to work just as easily.

I've rowed mine a bit, and mucked around generally, and on the website there are pictures of David Graybeal's boat under power. David hasn't actually built a sailing rig yet, and has been using his as a utility boat while fishing and building on a lake.

The boat is a huge 16 footer, very simple to build and very rewarding in terms of performance and appearance.

I still reckon there's room in his portfolio for a 12 and 14 foot version of it, but don't talk to me talk to Mik about that!

I know there are dozens of designs in this range, but I'm yet to find a simpler one to build. It simply isn't possible, and if it was it wouldn't look as good, nor would it perform any better!!

End of promo.

Cheers,

P
:D :D :D

[Daddles]

I wasn't going to respond to this thread, because I always sound like the president of the Boatmik fan club, which I'm not, but he is a mate after all! ;)

Weren't you at the AGM? :D

Richard

[bitingmidge]

Weren't you at the AGM? :D

Richard
Actually, no. (Which is how I think I got elected!)

P
:D :D :D

[mcchaddy]

Hi Ken,

I have just been through the same exercise of trying to find a multi purpose boat along the same idea as you have described. I have ordered and recieved plans for a Phoenix III by Ross Lillistone of Bayside boats. Check out the website http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/. The plans(24 A3 pages of detailed drawings) for the Phoenix are outstanding as far as I'm concerned. Every detail you could think of is included along with a 50 odd page building manual. The boat is a lapstrake design, is 15ft x 4ft 6in x 6in, and carries 104 sq ft of sail in an unstayed sprit/sloop rig. Is easily rowered and has a motor well for a small outboard.

I plan to start the boat in the new year.

[Daddles]

That Phoenix is a neat little boat. Am I right in thinking it was in Australian Amateur Boat Buggerer recently?

Richard

[mcchaddy]

You would be correct. It was in the last issue. By all accounts it is a great little boat to build and sail. I was just going over the plans again and I'm still amazed at the amout of detail Ross has put into them. They are simple and easy to follow even for a beginner like myself.

[KRH]

I'll have a close look at the Goat Island Skiff, and the Pheonix. Both are along the lines I'm looking for.

Many thanks for your comments and advice.

Ken

[Boatmik]

Howdy Ken,

While it may be possible to fit the Mirror rig to a number of different boats the optimum experience with each will be with the rigs they were designed to take.

Another advantage of the designed rigs is that many boats of the style you are talking about use a freestanding mast. This makes rigging and unrigging the boat very fast and easy. People brought up on stays, headsails and jib fairleads etc often don't see how the boats go together so quickly on the beach.

Basically just have to drop the mast in and hoist the sail - and push off the shore.

MIK

[KRH]

Thanks MIK

I gathered that after further reading of some excellent arcticles about the GIS (and Pheonix). I know little about sails and rigging but I am learning fast. I'll go with the recommended rig of the boat I select.

Decisions, decisions.

Regards

Ken

[JEM]

Here's one that might fit the bill and is a little unique:

http://boatplans.dk/mo-dutch.asp?level=n

[KRH]

Hi all

I have finally selected the next boat - ordered plans this morning.

It was a close call between the GIS and the Pheonix III but in the end Ross Lillistone's design won the day. Both are nice boats but I was really taken with the flowing lines of the Pheonix and the classic lapstrake hull.

I'll keep the forum posted as the build progresses.

Thanks to all for your help and suggestions.

Ken

[mcchaddy]

Hi Ken,

Congratulations on your choice. I have just started mine. Cut the Stem out the other night. Ross is a wonderful chap and very helpfull. When ever I have a problem with something he is only to happy to explain or offer advice. Its good to know some else is building the same boat. We can share ideas.

Michael.

[onthebeachalone]

I have just started mine. Cut the Stem out the other night. Are you fellas going to keep us entertained with pictures as you progress? :roll:

[mcchaddy]

Hi All,

I will have photo's soon. A patern of the stem is not much to show at the moment. When I have the moulds cut out I will post pictures of them and building frame.

[Boatmik]

Howdy Ken,

Thanks for following up to tell us about your decision.

I (and lots of others will be looking forward to another interesting thread on this forum.

One thing I like about this forum is not only the pearls of wisdom about methods and how to do bits, but the pics and words about getting the whole thing done - whether Daddles, ScottyK, Midge, Ramps, OntheBeachAlone, Meerkat and all the others.

There are plenty of places on the net where more abstract notions are discussed, but I think this little boatbuilding - and boatworshipping (Dingo and many others) - has a nice mix of practicality with all the other great stuff.

Cheers to all of youse.

MIK

[KRH]

Are you fellas going to keep us entertained with pictures as you progress? :roll:

Of course. I won't be starting until some time in March though. I have to wait until we after we move into the new house. Hopefully the new shed will be finished at the same time. Until then I'll be devouring the plans and sourcing material.

Thanks MIK for your encouragement.

Glad youre leading the way Mcchaddy. Look forward to the collaberation.

Thanks
Ken

[onthebeachalone]

Until then I'll be devouring the plans and sourcing material.Yep! I reckon there's a lot to be said for building it (many times) in your head before starting the real thing.

[Daddles]

Yep! I reckon there's a lot to be said for building it (many times) in your head before starting the real thing.

Nah, dive in and have a go, then work out how to fix the screw ups is far more satisfying, and you've got an excuse. There is nothing worse than making a carefully planned and considered stuffup :doh: (guess how I know this).

Actually, you'll be surprised at how many small bits there are than can be made in the meantime. A pair of oars. A rudder. The centreboard. Cleats. That funnything you can see on the plans but can't identify but assume you have to make in the hope it fits into the boat somewhere when eventually you know all about this boat building caper:C Don't be scared to start on them now - there is nothing more frustating than being ready for the next bit ... apart from a heap of stupid little bits.

Buy some Kapur decking. Run it through the thicknesser to get rid of the ridges, and you not only have some very good hardwood, it looks stunning under varnish. Now think cleats and other small fittings. Think of the fun you'll have making them and sanding them and how stunning she'll look with them instead of plastic bits bought in a rush because you wanted to launch her this weekend. :D

Richard

[Boatmik]

Good advice this.

Generally over lots of boats I've been involved in - the people who build all the little bits first find the boatbuilding process a bit more fun.

That's what I've noticed anyhow.

Just because all the bits are ready to put into/onto the finished hull - rather than finishing the hull and then find that half the building is left.

Of course the best order to build things in is the way that you WANT to do it - but it's worth considering doing the little bits first.

MIK

[meerkat]

I for one am looking forward to plenty of pics and commentary.:2tsup:

[mcchaddy]

Hi All,

I have taken the approach of building the little bits first to build and refine my wood working skills before I tackle the more difficult tasks. I have started by making templates of the inner stem, centre board, rudder, tiller and a few other bits that can be done before I make the building frame.

This also gives me some experience working with epoxy and gluing things together in much easier situations. The inner stem is made from 5 x 6mm laminations of ply or similar material. So the template will be used to cut and then flush trim the 5 pieces. Like wise with the centre board and rudder, which are built by laminating pieces together. I am also toying with the idea of vaccuum bagging these pieces to get some experience in using this technique for a future project which requires this process.

Anyway, thats where I have started. Will have some pictures soon.

Michael.