Is the Domino the best tool for this job?

[journeyman Mick]

Okay Domino owners, you don't need to convince me the Domino is a great tool. I've had a play with one at a demo and I can see it paying for itself pretty quickly in certain applications. I don't have a problem spending big dollars on a tool if it will make me money. I'm wondering though whether the Domino is the best tool for door making. Sometime not too far down the track I might start making custom timber entrance and internal doors, as well as timber gates. I've got a few builders that have expressed interest (like, when will you start? I can give you an order now.) So I'm thinking that a horizontal slot morticer with which I can cut 12mm, 16mm and 19mm mortices for floating tenons would be better than a domino in this case. I'll still buy a Domino down the track for furniture work.
I know that some tests have shown that a pair of biscuits will give a stronger joint than M & T, but the biscuit joints failed totally when they let go whereas the M & T loosend up before finally failing totally. I don't know where a couple of dominos would fit into the test scenario, but presumably a single large tenon will perform better in the long term than a pair (or more) of smaller ones Presumably in real life, this loosening would be noticed and addressed before catastrophic failure. (Ya gotta think of warranty/liability issues) So I don't know how unbiased an answer anyone can give me, given that you're all mad keen Domino owners/users, I'd be particularly interested to hear from anyone who's owned/used both the domino and a horizontal slot morticer.

Mick

[echnidna]

Mick I don't own a domi (yet) but I would be surprised tif you couldn't easily cut bigger mortices with some very simple jigging.

Slot morticers can be a bit tedious, I'm not mad about the quality of their mortices. I think the domi will be a far better option.

The other thing to keep an eye out for is a chain morticer (giving you square edge mortices) - the ultimate for speed and repition. Loose tenons could be run by the metre with a thicknesser

[Flowboy]

Hi Mick,
I'm not the best person to answer this, but there was a chap here who has been making gates and some doors, I believe and who related a time when he had to fix the bottom half of a two piece "barn" type door. After being quoted 2 weeks for delivery of the frame necessary to fix it, he used the Domino and had the door repaired and the first coat of paint on in 2 hours. I've had a look through to try and find the post for you, but haven't succeeded. You may have more luck, particularly since he may be able to give you more info. Making higher tenons is not a big deal, neither is making wider tenons. You just need to think about what you want.:)

Regards

Rob

[nt900]

Rob - re sig - are you turning Japanese or something?

Hi Mick - that's a very good question to which I do not have the answer, although I do plan to build some doors with it in my no to distant future. Timber frame doors holding large single panes of 6mm laminated glass.

I will wait until another who does have both slot mortiser and Domino experience shares it with us, but following your logic: if you are likely to get a Domino eventually, why not buy it now. It would seem advantageous to have it in your kit now, that way you can test it out in the door scenario and know for sure. If you like the resulting joints and their structural integrity, you have gone down the right path :) because of the massive amount of time it will save you and you can start building the doors straight away at an increased speed for the builders who are ready to go. If you do not like the strength of the joints provided by the domino for doors, you still have travelled down the right path :) because you will use the Domino later on for furniture anyway, and there will be no thinking (I wonder if I should have tried this on those doors)...... also, even if you prefer to use the slot mortiser for the major door joints, I would be surprised if the Domino does not find a use for some of the minor joints.

My 2c whilst waiting for someone else to chime in.

[Rocker]

Mick,

I have not used a slot morticer, so cannot speak from personal experience, but the ability to take the machine to the workpiece rather than vice versa is a big plus for the Domino. Also, if you can live with the fact that the largest available dominoes are 10 thick x 23 wide by 48 long, then having accurately fitting tenon stock ready-made in the form of dominoes is a big time-saver. The dominoes are made of European beech, and are very strong. If you use epoxy to glue them and have twin mortices, you should get a very strong joint. I don't think you would regret buying a Domino.

Rocker

[eddie the eagle]

Hi Mick,

I've had a play with a Domino machine at a trade show and have a slot mortiser and/or set of tenoning heads on a shaper that I use for runs of tenon/mortise work. (I prefer loose tenons to traditional - far quicker to make.)

Being honest, I'd buy a Domino if I didn't have an old, accurate(ish) Makita biscuit cutter. The Domino is far more accurate and repeatable as well as being quicker than setting up a slot mortiser. A biscuit helps in alignment but still needs the fine tuning of alignment to be done by hand, to explain the above statement in a bit more detail (I know Mick knows this, but this post is read by a lot of people.)

One advantage of a slot mortiser as it also doubles as a horizontal borer as well as being able to cut a 8" wide by 5" deep mortise in the one setup (plunge drill out 80% of the waste and then use multiple sweeps to clean out the waste, for those who've never used one.)

My main concern in the Domino (other than consumables pricing) is the depth of the tenon. I'd be reluctant to use them in anything over 2" stock.

As you know, a stub tenon on a 6" rail going into a 6" stile should be about 4" long or so. I wouldn't consider using a 1.25" domino to hold the thing together.

I'd look at cross section of the biscuit vs cross-section of the Domino to get some idea of shear/failure strength. Based upon this, I'd say surmise that they're about 3-5 times as strong, as well as being deep enough in the components to allow the glue to bind properly (unlike a #10 biscuit in tension/racking.)

Cheers,

eddie

(Just on Makita, they took the bulk of their manufacturing to China about a year ago - check country of manufacture when you buy replacement tools as the recent ones, I'm led to believe, aren't quite living up to the reputation yet - still reasonable, but not quite at the old standard.)

[journeyman Mick]

Thanks Eddie,
a very helpful post. Thanks also to Rocker, Rob, Bob and NT900. It looks like Festool needs to bring out a Domino Maxi for making doors with.:D I haven't checked what the maximum size/length domino is but I had a feeling it wasn't really long enough for a really beefy joint, even if I used multiples. A chain morticer sounds good in that it would cut a square cornered mortice, but I imagine that they'd get a bit of slop in them as they aged(the machine, not the joint). I was thinking that if I went for the slot morticer I would run off a couple of different sizes of stock (jointer, saw + thicknesser then round over on router table) and keep a few metres in stock. I can buy a new slot morticer for under $1K (+ freight) so it keeps it at a pretty affordable level (plus it's a 100% tax write off rather than depreciation). Like I said, it will be little while yet before this happens so I'm keeping an open mind.

Mick

[echnidna]

Theres a tenoner on Ebay in WA at the moment (and a 4 sider)
Sorry don't have the link available

[Rocker]

Mick,

The largest available domino is 10 x 23 x 48 mm. However, the largest mortice that a Domino can cut is 10 x 33 x 28 deep. So if you make your own floating tenon stock, you can have a floating tenon 10 x 33 x 55 mm.

Rocker

[journeyman Mick]

Theres a tenoner on Ebay in WA at the moment (and a 4 sider)
Sorry don't have the link available

?? I've searched extensively but haven't found either.:?

Mick

Edit okay found them, I tried all the usual searches and they didn't turn up on them.

[eddie the eagle]

http://www.google.com.au/search?num=100&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=II4&q=queensland+mortiser+OR+morticer+OR+%22horizontal+borer%22&btnG=Search&meta=
http://www.gregmach.com/used_machinery/used_machinery.htm
http://www.gregmach.com/used_machinery/Borers/sh_bor1572.htm
http://www.google.com.au/search?num=100&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=queensland+%22second-hand%22+OR+%22second+hand%22+machinery+equipment+OR+%22used+equipment%22+OR+%22used+machinery%22+AND+joinery+OR+wood&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU


http://www.usedmachineryptyltd.com/default.php
http://www.usedmachineryptyltd.com/user/mac_buy_show.php?mac_id=818&mac_cat=9


Gregory are both reputable dealers, as is Gabbett. Felder also have their QLD branch that may have a second hand mortiser available.

No doubt you've got local machinery suppliers as I do if needed.
http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=296712&postcount=9
http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=318054&postcount=55

The trading post is also a good point to start.

http://www.tradingpost.com.au/search/cat_Home+Renovations_ns_True_off_0_sect_Home+Renovations_sort_otRZSQ1BJDZfdRZSQSearchDisplayPriorityIndAVSCotRZSQ1BJDZfdRZSQFirstPublished_sqt_2_srch_woodworking_srchtype_int_state_4_stpg_1_subs_Home+Renovations_
http://www.tradingpost.com.au/search/cat_Machinery_ns_True_off_0_sect_Home+Renovations_sort_otRZSQ1BJDZfdRZSQSearchDisplayPriorityIndAVSCotRZSQ1BJDZfdRZSQFirstPublished_sqt_2_srch_woodworking_srchtype_int_state_4_stpg_1_subs_Home+Renovations_
Cheers,

eddie

[eddie the eagle]

Hi Mick,

I don't know how, but I wiped off the first half of the message above. Completely changed the tone of the post.

Here it goes again.... I hope ...

Mick,

I use a network of local second hand dealers I trust when I need machinery. I picked up my home machine (a SCM 6-in-1 combo) from the trading post for about $2K, so either work out well for me.

Obviously, Sydney-based dealers won't work so well for you.

I've quickly googled, but you've probably got your own network of people you use as well.

Some links below.

{then insert rest of post above}

Cheers,

eddie

[sinjin]

I bought one of these for doing doors. But in time i will get one of the Domino machine they look way most impressive than my bicuit joiner.
http://www.wmhtoolgroup.com/shop/index.cfm?navPage=4&iid=6056398

[Carpenter Eiji]

hi Mick,

have you thought of using a lock mortiser (virutex) which can operate in the vertical and horizontal positions for cutting the mortises? Just a thought. You whould have to make up a jig to hold the rails in position but that would be simple enough. Most likely you will need the mortiser for lock prep anyway.

Eiji :2tsup: