Domino Tenon and Router

[Dilly]

Anyone tried using the Domino tenons and mortising with a router? If so what router bit/s and jigs did you use??? Still trying to justify the Domino price to my wife...one Festool Domino = 4 nights stay at the Gold Coast??? :?

Cheers,
Dilly

[echnidna]

Theres no reason why you couldn't use domi tenons in router cut mortices.
In fact its a very practical alternative if only a lot slwer than a domi.

The bit diameter would depend on the tenon thickness.

I think Rockers morticing jig would do the job nicely. Do a search and you should find it or drop him a PM.

[TassieKiwi]

Anyone tried using the Domino tenons and mortising with a router? If so what router bit/s and jigs did you use??? Still trying to justify the Domino price to my wife...one Festool Domino = 4 nights stay at the Gold Coast??? :?

Cheers,
Dilly

But, grasshopper, when you come home you've only got memories.

[zenwood]

Domino tenons come in 5, 6, and 8 mm thickness.

Should be able to get spiral upcut router bits of those diameters fairly easily. Carbatec have an 8 mm one. Not sure about the others. Maybe you could use a festool bit in your own router.

See here (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=437599&postcount=24)(and surrounding thread) for a simple mortising jig that I made recently, based on a design found here (http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/library/tagefridsmortisingjig.pdf).

[Flowboy]

Hi Dilly,

Domino tenons come in 5,6,8 and 10mm. Domino bits are unsuitable for a standard router, however Festool make spiral upcuts in these sizes for their dovetail jig. In addition all of these sizes are available from Carbitech, CMT, Carbitool, Leigh and Veritas, as 6.35, 12.7 or in some cases 8mm shanks.
Domino tenons are sold apparently by weight. A box will cost you approx $100.00, for which you will get somewhere between 850 and ?1200/ box. Each box contains plastic bags containing a split of the total number.
You should be able to buy one bag of each size from Anthony at Ideal Tools. This will allow you to decide which is the size you use most.
Zen or Rocker's mortising jigs will help you with the mortise itself or if you know someone with a Leigh FMT, that'll do it for ya.

Regards,

Rob

[zenwood]

Maybe these would work:

http://www.idealtools.com.au/category2593_1.htm

They are available with 6, 8, and 10 mm diameter cutters (can't see any 5 mm cutters), but they all have 8 mm shanks. Not sure about the 6 mm cutter on an 8 mm shank: the depth would be limited to the depth of the blade. Standard routers have 1/4" or 1/2" collets too, don't they? I.e. 6.35 mm, or 12.7 mm, neither of which would fit the 8 mm shank of these Festool bits. You might need to get an 8 mm collet.

[Flowboy]

Hi Zen,

Those are the bits for the Dovetail jointer. Leigh and apparently Festool prefer to use 8mm shanks as you get less chatter when cutting mortises and also through dovetail joints. I have used the Festool and Leigh 10mm cutters with 8mm shanks for extensive stock clearance around 10mm tenons (10mm in 50mm stock) and to plunge mortises as well. In MHO you get a cleaner result than with a 6.35mm equivalent. Most of the better router makers (as well as Leigh) produce a 12.7mm to 8mm reducer. I have used both these and a straight 8mm collet and both work well. You may have to settle for a 5mm two flute bit.:)

Regards,

Rob

[extiger]

Since I already have a chunk of $$$ invested in a WoodRat, I was thinking along the same lines.

For those who don't know, the WoodRat is a router powered sort of CNC machine made in England. Not for everyone, but certainly attractive to those who want to make a lot of joints (dovetail, box joints, mortise & tenon, etc). It mounts on the wall and securely clamps the work under a phenolic plate that serves as a safety barrier betgween the operator and the spinning bit.

In all the discussions here concerning the Domino, it is clear that the portability of the machine is the decisive capability for most folks wanting to buy it. On the other hand, I am a hobbyist working a shop. With a WoodRat. So for me, bringing the wood to the machine is preferable. First of all, the wood is clamped securily so accurate registration is ensured. And since my WoodRat has digital readouts for the bit position (plus a laser guide), I'll have more precise cuts than I would with the Domino.

I looked around, and CMT (Italy) makes two-fluted straight bits in every metric size. I only looked at 1/2" shank bits, but I'm sure they are made in 8mm shanks. I'm sure other companies make metrics as well. I'm a somewhat put off by the Domino's limitation because I want to make tenons considerably longer than 1 inch. I'd like about 30mm+ in each of the sticks being joinedl But for my shorter tenons, I'll certainly buy the Domino tenon stock. I can then be assured of close mfg. tolerances. Certainly better than what I can achieve making my own using somewhat crude methods.

Now my problem becomes - what to do with the $1000 (u.s.) that I'll save?
Troubled by excess cash in California.

Gary Curtis

[Flowboy]

Hi Extiger,
A few points if I may.
1. The Domino isn't just portable, it doesn't need 2 metres of space like the Woodrat, so for people with limited room, its a godsend. Accurate, reproducible cuts without large areas of space being consumed.
2. CMT don't make many 8mm bits, but Leigh, and Lee Valley do.
3. If you are looking for high standard loose tenons of any length (up to your Routers capacity) and you can't get this using your own methods, then I suggest you buy a Leigh FMT. Simply define the tenon width and depth you want in the timber you desire, set up and go. For tenons up to 65mm wide and as deep as your router allows, you can make then cut up to four at once. Since you are only worried about tenons, set up should be very simple. Won't cost you a Grand either. Works well for me.

Regards

Rob

[Lignum]

What it it about peoples obsession with "long" tennons:? A snug fitting 25mm tennon glued in will have no more strength than 30, 40 or 50mm. If extra strength is needed then 2, 3 or 4 tennons depending on the size or the rail can be used.

[eddie the eagle]

Hi All,

They make collet sleeves to fit an 8mm bit in a 12mm or half-inch router.

The makita part no, 12mm down to 8mm is 793804-8, according to their instruction manual that I found in the back of the cupboard last week. (timing was just right.)

Cheers,

eddie

[echnidna]

What it it about peoples obsession with "long" tennons:? A snug fitting 25mm tennon glued in will have no more strength than 30, 40 or 50mm. If extra strength is needed then 2, 3 or 4 tennons depending on the size or the rail can be used.

Some odd ideas do develop but to try and get the hordes to understand that the idea is odd is a whole different kettle of fish :2tsup:

[extiger]

Eddie,

I mentioned tenons longer than 25mm because right now I am building my shop workbench with 4x4" oak legs and 1.5x6" stretchers. The published plans I have call for pinned tenons, and considering the stresses that will be put on undercarriage, it seemed that long tenons would be appropriate.

But I'm just starting out at building furniture, so I'll accept your suggestions.

Gary

[martrix]

What it it about peoples obsession with "long" tennons:? A snug fitting 25mm tennon glued in will have no more strength than 30, 40 or 50mm. If extra strength is needed then 2, 3 or 4 tennons depending on the size or the rail can be used.

Yes I have been thinking about this, mainly prompted from Journeymanmick's questions about using the Domino for solid timber doors in houses.

I have made solid timber doors before at a company which were approx, 820mm wide x 2120mm high x 44mm thick. They had solid 44mm MDF veneered panels, very heavy.:C

The tenons for these doors were 70mm deep x 16mm thick.. Surely this size tenon would have to have more overall strength than 25mm deep x 10mm thick dominos?..I do agree though that there would be not much difference in strength between a 25mm deep tenon and a 40-50mm deep tenon

I don't think it would be a huge difference in strength between the two, and most likely would give the domino a shot at it..........the $ is the bottom line.:;

Using a Domino however would dramatically save on time..

[Lignum]

Gary and Martrix you both have good points. The tennon size and length is all relative to the size of the stile/rails used. A 4 x 4 leg for a workbench and a big house door would obviously need bigger tenons.

But for 95% of the work we woodies undertake in general furniture making a 50 x 23 x 10 Domi is incredibly strong

[extiger]

Aside from the longer tenons, do you think the short ones offer a better solution for plywood than biscuits?

My WoodRat isn't quite comfortable handling 8'x4' plywood sheets on end. I haven't used my Biscuit joiner yet, so I don't know how good it is for building cases.


Gary Curtis

[eddie the eagle]

For what it's worth, extiger, I've got 8" or so rails ont he bench I use, and they're held in place by a 1" deep tenon without glue, and a length of threaded rod passing through the lot, top and bottom of the rail to keep the bench from racking. The tenon just locates the rail, the threaded rod provides the stability.

As far as the 'obsession with longer tenons,' it's trade training. As Lignum said in post #15, it depends upon the situation. On the face of it, and assuming that the joinery is well cut and that the glue is stronger than the timber, there's no reason to go more than an inch deep. The deeper tenon adds more strength as either glue line creep occurs in PVA or racking forces tend to rip the tenon out.

In this case, the easiest way is to make a deeper tenon.

History over the last centuries has shown that a blind joint should be about 2/3 of the thickness of the member that it's being let into. such as a mortice and tenon, a housing, a dovetail, a rebate, etc... Not the other sort of blind joint being let into a member. What I don't know won't hurt me.

CHeers,

eddie

[extiger]

Thanks Eddie.

With the Domino, we are talking about loose tenons. I plan to make some furniture largely employing traditional mortise and tenons. And probably that is why the longer lengths attracted me.

Reinforcing this notion - no matter how silly - was a This Old House segment on TV the other day. They were in the process of dismantling an old pole barn built on the old English 3-bay pattern. (Whatever that is)

This is a popular construction process, for aesthetic and cost reasons. However, to pass building codes, many of the members having mortise and tenon joinery had to be recut to have haunched tenons. The TV show went into a brief discourse on the forces acting on a tenon. I previously believed the haunch was put their to hide a trench in in a table aprSon or such.

The haunched tenon is also there to resist torque forces. Never knew that. So I'm more inclined to build this element into the pieces I make. We are still 15 weeks away from the 'predicted' introduction of the 110volt Domino in the US & Canada. No certain date, and no set price yet. So, there's lots of speculation and not much fact.

I appreciate your comments.

Gary Curtis

[Rocker]

Anyone tried using the Domino tenons and mortising with a router? If so what router bit/s and jigs did you use??? Still trying to justify the Domino price to my wife...one Festool Domino = 4 nights stay at the Gold Coast??? :?

Cheers,
Dilly

Dilly,

An article on my morticing jig, touting it as useful for people who cannot afford a Domino joiner, will be published in April in the British/American magazine Router and Power Woodworking. I found a UK supplier of 5 & 6 mm bits on an 8 mm shank (with 30 mm cutting depth), but they are sold as for routing aluminium; I am not sure if they will work OK for wood, but I have ordered them to find out. The 5 and 6 mm bits (on 8 mm shank) sold by Festool do not have an adequate cutting depth for routing mortices. However their 10 mm bit on an 8 mm shank would be fine, with a cutting depth of 30 mm. A regular 5/16" spiral bit works OK for routing mortices for 8 mm dominoes. The 8 mm shanks should fit into the 1/2" to 5/16" bushing adaptors sold by Lee Valley. Carbitool sell single-flute 5 and 6 mm carbide bits on 1/4" shanks, which have cutting depths of 19 and 25 mm respectively.

I think it is easy enough to justify the purchase of a Domino, if you consider that it should last you at least ten years. That works out to about 33 cents a day for the $1200 machine; and in that time, if you make yourself several pieces of furniture with numerous mortices, you will easily repay the cost.

Rocker

[Rocker]

Here is CMT (Italy)'s catalogue page showing solid carbide spiral upcut bits in 5, 6, 8, and 10 mm cutting diameters, with 8 mm shanks: http://www.cmtutensili.com/prodotti.asp?FamCatalogo=191 . They give Carbatec as their Australian distributor, so the bits could presumably be special-ordered from Carbatec.

Rocker

[underused]

G'day,

I know its off topic:-, in the CMT link Rocker provided, I had a look at their router. Looks like an exact copy of the old Elu 177 (execpt for the colour of course:-) wonder if it performs as well:)

[Lignum]

G'day,

I know its off topic:-, in the CMT link Rocker provided, I had a look at their router. Looks like an exact copy of the old Elu 177 (execpt for the colour of course:-) wonder if it performs as well:)

Under:) The CMT (and Dewalt) is identical to the worlds best ever router the Elu 177e:2tsup: The only difference is the new verions locking plunge lever is reverse to that of the Elu. On the Elu you push it in and plunge and letting it go locks it, on the new version its the same as all routers where you plunge and push the lever to lock. Being the proud owner of the 177 and having used the Dewalt a fair bit (and the Triton - ex owner until burnt:( ) I would say the Dewalt with its Elu pedagree, is the best all round mid priced router by a mile, and has an excelent fence to boot:2tsup:

[eddie the eagle]

G'day,

I know its off topic:-, in the CMT link Rocker provided, I had a look at their router. Looks like an exact copy of the old Elu 177 (execpt for the colour of course:-) wonder if it performs as well:)

As Lignum said, Under, it's Italian made in the same factory as the old Elu machines. Glad they kept it going.

Carbatec were clearing their stock of CMT routers about 2 years ago -> don't know if they still import them.

Cheers,

eddie.

[Rocker]

Well I tried the 5 & 6 mm single flute spiral bits that are designed for routing aluminium. When used in hardwood, they do not rout a mortice of the correct thickness - the 5 mm bit routed a mortice 5.32 mm wide, giving an unacceptably sloppy fit for a 5 mm thick domino. So I am a sadder, wiser, and poorer man. However, the 8 mm shanks do fit (just) into a 1/2" to 5/16" bushing adaptor.

Anyone want some aluminium routing bits, scarcely used, going cheap?

Rocker