CA Glue Failure

[Barry_White]

I glued the tubes in 20 blanks last night and started turning them today. I have turned seven of them so far and had one fly apart whilst turning and as I went to assemble one by pushing the top onto the refill mechanism the blank slid off the tube.

I was using CA gap filling glue from Gary Pye. Has anyone had this problem? I don't want to turn them all and find more of them are going to fail.

What brand of glue does everyone use?

[lubbing5cherubs]

Gidday Bazza,
As a guess what I imagine would be when glueing in the tube you did not get a full covered in the glue up. That what I found the biggest cause of my failures is if you look inside you notice it not the best glue up. but I must admit I found better it better with glue up is to use epoxy. I have had no blow out using epoxy
bye Toni

[Barry_White]

Gidday Bazza,
As a guess what I imagine would be when glueing in the tube you did not get a full covered in the glue up. That what I found the biggest cause of my failures is if you look inside you notice it not the best glue up. but I must admit I found better it better with glue up is to use epoxy. I have had no blow out using epoxy
bye Toni

Thanks Toni

When I was gluing them I put a liberal amount on and pushed the tube into the blank pulled it out and them pushed it in again and twisted it back and forth as I was pushing it in. The tube had glue all over it when I took it out.

When I glued up my first lot of 20 I was using Selley's supa glue that came with a brush and only had one failure while I was turning and that was on a mallee burl which had a split in it.

What brand and type of epoxy do you use?

[DJ’s Timber]

What brand and type of epoxy do you use?

Selleys 5 Minute Araldite (http://www.selleys.com.au/Selleys-Araldite-5-Minute-Everyday/default.aspx) and also make sure you sand the full length of the tube before glueing

[Simomatra]

I have just been using the L cheapo super glue from the cheap shops in packets of 10 and no failures so far.

NNearly ,amaged to join the digits as well

[Black Ned]

Try running a bead of glue just inside the rim of the pen blank. When you push in the brass tube, the glue will spread and coat both the tube and inside of timber blank. To stop glue entering the brass tube, push tube into a wax candle to form a plug

[lubbing5cherubs]

yep sanding the tubes is a good tip to DJ
bye Toni

[dai sensei]

I've been using GPW's medium CA for years and had no problem (epoxy takes too long for me). When you say gap filling, do you mean the thick or medium?

I sand the blank to ensure it is roughened; drip the glue down the blank and roll it around to ensure it is completely covered; add a little bit to the sleeve; insert the sleeve rotating it. I use baking paper underneath, that way the glue that is pushed out, becomes the coating for the next sleeve. Sqirt of excellerator, then have a cupper, by the time I've finished their ready for trimming.

[DanP]

Wot he said...

('Cept the accellerator)

Dan

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I'm with DJ... Epoxy is my preference. Either 5 or 60-min stuff, but I always leave it overnight before milling/turning anyway.

I find it has better fill qualities and although it doesn't penetrate as far as CA, it also doesn't discolour the timber. I've turned some spalted pens where using CA caused major hassles... I had a batch of 12 and for about half of 'em the tube didn't glue in properly 'cos the spalting had sucked up all the CA (shrapnel time! :( ) and for the other half the spalted areas were blotchy, where some parts had sucked CA and others hadn't. Of course, if the pen's more spalting than solid or I'm finishing in CA anyway, then this ain't a problem.

However, I do also use CA on occasion and then, like Dai Sensei, I pour some thin CA inside the blank and roll it for full coverage. but that's where I start to differ: next I give a squirt of accelerant down the bore and put it aside to dry, before running the drill through again to double-check that the hole is sized correctly. This "seals" the inside of the blank and ensures that when the tube's glued in (with Medium CA for maximum fillage) I don't have that problem with the timber sucking up the CA. :wink:

Whether CA or Epoxy, I always lightly sand the tube so the glue can key to it.

Geeze... I don't have a simple answer for anything, do I? :-

[Wizened of Oz]

Barry, I had exactly your experience with GPW's Medium CA. Glued up about 60 pens (rose sheoak and Grevillea) and found not one tube was glued to the wood. Not only that. Three bottles of CA, supposedly all the same product, had different viscosities. One was like water, one too thick to use and the other a happy medium.
I tested gluing freshly sanded brass sheet to different freshly sanded woods and the CA bonded to the wood but had zero adhesion to the brass.
So now I use epoxy.

[bdar]

I have used CA for glue ups on timber blanks and the only time a failure has occurred is if I was being heavy handed in the turning. As said previously, rough the tube, coat the drilled hole with CA a spray of accelerator, I prefer the aerosol version of it. Re bore the hole so the tube can slide in use either a medium or thick CA for gluing cause if you use thin it will stick really quick. DAMHIKIT :doh: I use the same process on all of my glue ups except for acrylics, lucite, cumberland and antler. I use epoxy for them.
Darren

[NewLondon88]

Here's my $.02

I put the tubes right on the mandrel as if I were turning blanks. I can maybe fit 3 tubes on at a time. Start the lathe, two or three seconds with 320 and I'm ready for the next set.

I buy chopsticks by the bundle. 100 pair of el cheapo chopsticks is about $5. (I use them for everything .. I cook with them, sand them down to a wedge and use them to firm up wobbly joints .. you name it. But I use them to spread the glue inside the blanks. Put a dollop of glue inside the blank,run the chopstick in and out of the blank while rotating it. You can look down the inside and see any place you're missed. On 7mm tubes that are longer, you might need to reverse the tube ... put the chopstick in the other end to make sure to get full coverage.

I've used el cheapo glue, various brands, and I've used medium, thick and thin. And I've got a rather expensive brand (forget the name .. two letters and two numbers)) that I got from Woodcraft and I'll use that if I'm doing spalted or burl. So far I'm using whatever is less expensive on most blanks because I've had no failures except for an aromatic cedar, which is very soft, and a skew that wasn't as sharp as it should have been. Combine that with trying to remove stock too fast .. well .. it flew.

No accelerant, as the Skewmaster said .. and I haven't found the need to try epoxy yet. The only wood I really worry about is cocobolo and olive (which people seem to order the most) because of the oil content. Cocobolo doesn't seem to like glue at all, so I glue the tubes as well.

[Barry_White]

Man & Lady

So much good advice and the one thing I haven't been doing is sanding the tubes.

To Dai Sensei I am using the medium GPW one.

I think that this is the first time I have asked for advice on the forum and every one has come up with the goods.

I thank one and all.

[rodent]

barry you dident say if you sanded the tubes first i slide min down a center punch and sand them that way and insert them with the punch. ps .wax the punch first.

[sarge 06]

just a light touch on the brass tube with 80 grit ,then BEFORE gluing with 5 minute epoxy push each end of the tube into a raw potato so you leave a potatro plug in each end,it does'nt matter then how sloppy you are with the glue. When dry just push out the plugs
Sarge

[dai sensei]

...a potatro plug in each end...

I tried potato once, but when I had to dismantle a pen, found it had coroded the brass sleeve :((

[DJ’s Timber]

I tried potato once, but when I had to dismantle a pen, found it had coroded the brass sleeve :((

I use ear plugs, they work a treat :2tsup:

[fxst]

Barry I use CA when faceting gems and always use a metho lamp to heat the dop to remove the stone. If using a friction polish you may be getting a heat build up causing the CA to fail.
I use epoxy for my pen glue ups no probs to date.:D
Pete

[Barry_White]

Barry I use CA when faceting gems and always use a metho lamp to heat the dop to remove the stone. If using a friction polish you may be getting a heat build up causing the CA to fail.
I use epoxy for my pen glue ups no probs to date.:D
Pete

Pete

That thought did enter my head as I am using EEE and Shellawax. Maybe i will try the epoxy way.

[Wizened of Oz]

Barry, what I did not say in my earlier post was that I had used GPW's medium CA previously with no problems and I've found Loctite 454 very good. But then, I think I got some of a crook batch and so did you.

[soundman]

I've used both CA and epoxy.
I've had a few failures.
CA has some problems if the drilling is sloppy and the fit isn't good.
I always sand the tubes 240 or coarser.
I always blow out the pen blanks to remover residual dust
I always apply glue to the inside of the blank and rub it arround with a bit of #8 fencing wire.
I always make sure I have a good glue wetting on the tube before inserting.

I still get the odd failure.
If the timber is going to split thats the timbers problem.
I have had them spin...failure to sand.... too much heat....poor drilling.
I have had a number of blow ups.... adhesive still on tube... wood tears away.



You do get failures turning pens.... i think its part of the thing.

cheers

[Black Ned]

When glue is put just inside rim of blank, the brass tube pushes it (glue) forward and spreads it out coating the outside wall of the brass and the inside wall of the blank.
Determining the correct amount of glue is important and probably discovered through trial and error. Too much glue and the surplus pushes out the other end of the blank. I imagine a lot of you are making a mess by using too mush glue. Most glues "skin over" and delays in fitting parts will cause the glue to be forced out by the scraping of the brass tube.

[Barry_White]

I was speaking to Gary Pye this morning and I mentioned the glue failure issue. He said he has sold about 50,000 bottles of his CA glue and he has had a bit of feedback on these issues.

Apart from all the good advise that has been issued here one of the other things that he mentioned was that was with some timbers when you drill them out and you leave them overnight or longer before you glue the tubes in some of them will oxidise and leave a coating inside the hole and this can prevent an ideal bond.

He says that what some of his guys and himself also do is put some thinners or turps down the hole to neutralize the oxidisation and this will help the bond.

Another thing he said that it seems the more porous the timber the greater tendency to fail and as some one earlier suggested was to coat the inside of porous timbers first and then glue up.

[soundman]

For a couple of reasons above I prefer to rub the glue arround the interior of the blank with a stick or wire.

I hadn't thaught about the fresh cut thing.... but it certainly goes for some timbers doing conventional joinery.

I supose if the drilling operation burnished or burned the blank, that wouldn't help either.

cheers