JET v Carbatec

[craigb]

Well I've been following the recent posts and have decided to lash out on a bandsaw.

What I don't understand though is the price difference between the Carbatec and the Jet 14" models.
According to an Australian Wood Review article from late last year, these two machines are made in the same factory and are "virtually identical".
However, the Carbatec comes with a fence and a mitre guide, the Jet comes with zip and is 90 bucks dearer.
So have I missed something? Is there more to the Jet that justifies the price difference?
Anybody who owns the Jet like to comment?

Thanks
Craig

[kenmil]

I don't know anything about bandsaws, but I would buy Jet before Carbatec every day of the week.

[derekcohen]

Craig

Do yourself a favour and have a good look at the Carba-tec BS-1400 bandsaw. I bought this a few months ago and can only praise it.

In a recent test (I think it was either in American Woodworker or Fine Woodworking), this bandsaw came equal top with the equiv. Jet 14" model. It actually outscored the Jet in a few categories. It obtained top scores in blade tension (important for cutting accuracy) and ease of blade changing. It comes out of the same factory as the Delta and Jet. In the States it is badged as a Rigid, a brand that has a good reputation for reliability and quality. It is an up-and-coming brand, trying hard to make its name the equal of Jet and Delta (both of whom have a reputation for selling quality products). I have read numerous reviews of the Rigid range, and they generally excel.

It is now selling for $699 and, at that price, will be a bargain compared to the Jet.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dan]

Craig

I bought the Carba-tec SW-1401 a while back and the only complaint I have is the standard guide blocks ( look like nylon ) are prone to wearing quickly. I plan to buy a set of the roller bearing blocks (ab-199021). Also because there is no rip fence supplied I also intend to get the professional rip fence (RF-3). All up it will add about another $120 to the original purchase. Not what I anticipated but there you go. As for mitre guides, I have not seen any that can match a cross cut sled for accuracy. If I was buying again I would be tempted to go for the economy model and try to strike a deal for the extras as part of a package.
Even if you end up paying full price you will still have a better saw than any of the standard packages (thats only my opinion).


All the numbers in brackets are from the 2003 Carba-tec catalogue

[kenmil]

Derek,

Ridgid is a brand which I think was stocked exclusively by Home Depot in the USA, and the Ridgid company have recently announced their withdrawal from the woodworking machinery business. They obviously could not compete with the likes of Jet & Delta. That is potentially one of the problems in buying 'small' brands like Carbatec.

[Dean]

I have the SW-1401 too.

Great bandsaw really and suits all my needs. A larger model would be more practical, but money doesn't grow on the trees in my backyard :)

If the machines are coming from the exact same factory and look identical, then guess what... they probably are! Only difference may be color or sticker so go for the cheaper model if they are identical machines, but do consider any differences in warranty or after sales support.

Dan, yep grab yourself some roller guide blocks. $35 from Carbatec... they do make things easier, especially if you use the wider blades. I managed to get a free delta rip fence on my SW1401 when I purchased it.. trouble is I still havent got around to drilling the holes to fit it... The carbatec pro fence looks good, but of course many others here (including myself) will mention just to build yourself a guide block thingy for resawing :)

[John Saxton]

The Jet's only dearer unless you can find a nice dealer and p*&#s in his ear or better still throw a log of the 'ol blarney at 'im.
Besides Jet has more than likely a better quality control in place dedicated to strong demands by the large American buying populace.
Better still stop shopping around and MAKE friends with a dedicated dealer in a smaller outlet.They'll be glad to have your business and will give you extra off of the top once you are sincere in your dealings.

I used to travel a lot up to Perth to get a whole range of prices on a tool/machinery I was looking to buy and by coming home and buying local I built up a rapport with the local dealers with the knowledge that I was prepared to shop around and consequently I now feel we have a mutual understanding with prices.

It cost me in Fuel >time> money, going to Perth with a day lost in the bargain but now I feel it has been worth it with the friendly atmosphere garnered over time.

Check your options out not only will the dealer with your custom offer up good deals but he will also pass on knowledge he alone is party to having the ears and voices of probably many in the trade/craft.

Cheers:) please forgive the ramblin'

[derekcohen]

Ken

I was interested in your comment about Ridgid (your spelling is better than mine). It is manufactured under licence to the Emerson Tool Company, which is a major world manufacturer. I can't find any info about their pulling out of woodworking, as you reported. Quite the opposite in fact - they are advertising new products (http://www.ridgid.com/indexnew.asp?Flash=Yes). Where did you hear/see this?

Regards

Derek

[craigb]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

It's not that I have anything against JET, I own a Jet buzzer and dust extractor and am very happy with both of them.

When I bought the buzzer there was a clear difference IMO in quality between it and the comparable Carbatec model. IE the Jet was made in Taiwan and the Carbatec in the PRC.
I just don't see this with the Bandsaws being made by the same company, probably on the same assembly line.

John, I don't know what the situation is in WA, but in Sydney, as far as I know, the only sellers of Jet gear are Major Woodworking Equipment (member of the Woodman group). Now I haven't talked to them yet, but unless they can at least match the Carbatec price, it looks like I won't be buying a Jet, especially given the positive feedback from the Carbatec users.

Cheers
Craig

[kenmil]

Derek,

Try here

www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=499036&Forum=UBB2&Words=ridgid&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Old=3months&Main=499036&Search=true#Post499036

[John Saxton]

Craig,good luck in your choice and I hope that all goes well for you.
I did'nt mean to try to put you off your choice , only offered up my experiences which were also price orientated.

It seems to me that I am lucky that I have available a good range of dealers here and readily accessible rather than the large metro area you have in Sydney.....Iwould'nt swap it at all, but thats not what 'Er indoors believes :D

Cheers:) good fortune

[derekcohen]

Ken

Thanks for the thread. I followed it through to the Ridgid Forum (http://www.ridgid.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=001396;p=2), and it appears that all it not what it seems. Ridgid is not closing down. They are simply subcontracting out their manufacturing. This is what occurs with most brands. Jet does not make Jet. Jet is made in China, in the same factory as Delta and Ridgid and .....

Regards from Perth

Derek

[John Saxton]

Derek to my belief Jet is not made in China but Taiwan (splitting hairs) my local bloke Ken Ramage from Power Tools & Machinery visited their factory last year in taiwan and was testament to the stringent quality control put in place by the parent American Company.
All off shore production being sourced by the labour market favourable to the means required.
ALthough a lot of similar machinery is made in the same manufacturing outlet with similar parts etc, Jet have their own personnel in place to ensure the criteria is maintained to their standards.
Cheers:)

[craigb]

John,
No worries, you didn't put me off my choice - not sure I've made one yet anyway - I appreciate the feedback.

One thing about the Jet is that they only sell the 1 hp model of the 14" bandsaw. Carbatec advertise theirs (the deluxe 14") as .75 to 1 hp. I'm not sure I know what this means - is it pot luck how powerful a motor you get? Perhaps this is Jet's justification for the higher price.

Obviusly these are the questions that I'll have to ask when the time comes to hand over the readies - which I won't be doing before Carbatec has their Sydney sale just before the WWW show.

Anyway, is an extra .25 hp going to make much difference?

Cheers
Craig

[Dean]

It will make a little difference if you are resawing large chunks of wood or maybe on some really dense hardwood.

My 3/4HP has survived everything so far though.

My carbatec SW1401 is badged as saying "Made in Taiwan"

[Wayne Davy]

Wise move waiting for the Sydney Show. I don't remember the prices but everyone had bandsaw on sale and I do remember thinking "WOW - Cheap".

As for the extra .25hp. Mine is 1hp and I have used a .75hp. As Dean said he has not found his wanting. If you can get 1hp for the same money/quality/features go for it but I would not stress it to much.

However, as 'Tim The Toolman' says 'More Power!!'.

[Sir Stinkalot]

I too am in the market for a bandsaw. I have no need to rush out and get one tomorrow so I thought I would wait for the bargain prices at the Melbourne show. As I have yet to attend a show I was interested in what prices they do go for at the show. I don’t want to go along this year to check prices and then wait until next year for the purchase. I am sure others that have attended the Brisbane show or soon to be Sydney show have or will take note of models and prices. Would it be possible to start a collection of information gained in regards to models and prices at these shows to share. I think a stock standard 14” saw should suit me fine. I did see yesterday in the new Australian Woodworker that one of the shops was selling its 14” saw very cheap, its at home so I don’t have the details at hand.

Are bandsaws just getting cheaper ($400-$500) or am I just starting to become wealthier and that doesn’t seem like so much money anymore? (I think it must be the former after thinking about it).

[Dean]

Stinky :)

They should be getting cheaper because of the rising aussie dollar. Although some retailers won't pass the entire savings on as much as they should so be wary and always shop around for the best price.

[kenmil]

Stinky,
I am like you - will attend a show this year for the first time, and am in the market for a bandsaw. Your suggestion about a few prices from Sydney/Brisbane would certainly help.....please.:)

[Sir Stinkalot]

We could shop together Ken :D

[John Saxton]

You guy's have got the right idea about waiting for the woodworking show's you can then compare what is surely to be a fair comparable range for price>availability>power> etc.

A lot of the attendant dealers rely on an after show "GLOW" of sales for around six weeks, so if you happen to tie him down to a good price make sure it is quoted and signed on his card.

Take plenty of time to go over all facets of the gear ie ....whats available not only with the machine but also accessories and after market service moreover if you are a fair way from the dealer.

Cheers:) Good luck guy's

[soundman]

There are a lot of similar machines on the market from a variety of suppliers.
Some are similar some are exactly the same except for the paint & badge.
You need to take a real good look at the actual machine If in detail it looks the same it probably is.
I can remember walking into carbatec in Bris and seeing 8 similar but different 14 " band saws lined up. ( Geoff had some samples in)

It is interesting to see the complete catalogues of some of the big names like jet and see the variety of machines offered overseas and to see diferent models offered by different importers under diferent barands all apearing in the catalogue.

For my money the jet badge & coat of white paint is very expensive.

By the way I have been told that carbatec was offered jet before they chose to go with delta.
The reasoning I understand was that jet could not offer them any thing they werent already able to access direct.

[kenmil]

Originally posted by derekcohen
Ken

Thanks for the thread. ..... Ridgid is not closing down. They are simply subcontracting out their manufacturing. ...
Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

They are not closing down but they are out of manufacturing their machines it seems. Sounds like most of our friends the USA will not buy their product in future as a result.
www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB2&Number=518700&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

[Evan Pavlidis]

Gooday people,

I'm in the market for a bandsaw also like you and kenmil and since we're located in Melbourne and not in a great hurry to
buy, I thought it may be a good idea for the 3 of us and other
interested purchasers to buy our saws from the Melbourne Woodworking show in October as a group from the one supplier.

This would be beneficial when it comes to pricing ie. our chances of getting a better deal are far better collectively than individually.

Also the more people that get involved the better.

Just a thought I had after reading the post on bandsaws. If you're interested in collective purchasing let's arrange a meeting place when the show comes to town.

Regards,
Evan

[Evan Pavlidis]

Gooday Sir Stinkalot,

sorry for not getting back sooner; Hare & Forbes didn't have a 16A on the floor for display but had larger machines with a price to suit (> $1000). A sales rep said they have 24 on order and they're a week away at the earliest.
I had a conversation with him and asked if they were made in China or Taiwan and he said he doubts that they are made in Taiwan (unbelievable; he sells stuff but doesn't know where it comes from).
All the machines on dislplay had no stickers or badges indicating country of manufacture.

I also went to WMS in Chifley Drive Preston,
http://www.woodworking.com.au , and they had some good machines but the motors were 1hp for the same price as the 16a. Their stock is made in Taiwan and badged as SONIC.
The wheel castings were very good and ran true. Only problem is he doesn't give a good deal for collective purchases.
There was a nice 14" superseded SONIC machine for $800 on display reduced from $895 but without a decent fence. I tried to get him to throw in a better fence or blade just to test the waters since the machine is ex demo but he didn't accept.

My next stop was Carbatec; and the only decent 14" machine was the SBW-3501 page 41 in the catalogue. After having read reviews and posts about the BS-1400 aka Ridgid 14000, the BSW-3501 is better than the 1400 surprisingly coming from one of the attendants. We had both machines running; the 3501 was extremely true and the wheel castings had more spokes and a much better finish than the 1400.
The 1400's inside wheel diameter was out of round and vibrated considerably compared to the 3501. Both machines are cast iron.
Had a look at the BAS-350 but doesn't compare with the 3501 in operation and construction; it is made of pressed sheet metal and the only nice thing about it was the large table.

The 3501 comes with a mitre gauge and a fence which I believe is much better than the professional they have as an optional extra. I noticed the professional fence is very rigdid and stable at the locking point but at the far end which is not fixed there is a bit of flex. If you notice the fence on the 3501 on page 41 there are 2 circular bars fixed to the sides of the table top where the guide is locked into positon parallel to the cutting direction and held tight for the entire length of the fence by means of a mechanism which locks the fence at the front and the rear thus eliminating flex.
I was quoted $710 for the SBW-3501 cash without any extras for either collective and/or indivudual purchasing.
The machine is made in Taiwan; the "made in" sign is pressed in the casting and not some slapped on sticker.

I was also advised not to use 3/4" blades for ripping on any 14" saw because since there is more metal compared to a 1/2" blade, the blade is more ridgid and the blade tensioner cannot tension the blade properly. 3/4" blades are more suited to 16" and upwards saws.
Also advised to be very careful when looking at Chinese made machines because they badge their motors as 1 hp when their true rating is 3/4 hp. That was a real eye opener and got me thinking about the Hare and Forbes 16A given the cheap price.

At this point I cannot justify spending this much hard earned for a basic machine.

Regards,
Evan

[Suresh]

I just bought the SBW-3501 from Carbatec. It came to $900 including the delux fence, riser kit and 1/16 sawblade.
I am not a tradesman and found the documentation that came with all of this appalling. Took a hell of a lot longer to put together than it needed to.
Despite that complaint I am happy so far with the saw. I used it to shape 2 1/2 inch redgum and to cut out a bandsaw box out of a bit of 4 by 4 oregan: handled these quite well.
I don't know about you lot but this is not the standard of documentation I expect out of a major woodwork tool outlet, it was really appalling
Suresh

[kenmil]

Suresh,

Was the problem in the instructions, or that you were looking at a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy ?
I recently bought a tenoning jig for my tablesaw from Timbecon, and the copy/copy/copy thing was totally unreadable. My requests to Timbecon for a better copy went unanswered. Might be the last order they get from me.

[kenmil]

Evan,

Thanks for the research. Well done. I am not interested in dealing with Carbatec if I can avoid it, so I will do a bit of research myself. I will let you know if I find any bargains.:D

[Suresh]

Ken,
The instructions were originals, just very badly done. It would have taken one of the experienced people from carbatec 2 hours to fully document the installation instructions and they could have included this as a cover sheet to those from the manufacturer. The most useful instructions came from a the Ridgid website, I downloaded their manual, a little different but a heck of a lot better than those included in the packaging.
Suresh

[Sir Stinkalot]

Evan,

Yes I must concour with Ken, very good research. I have just checked the WWM (http://www.woodworking.com.au/) website and noticed the Sonic 350 for $895.00 ..... this seems pricey for a unit that looks very similar to the Carbatec BAS-350. This is what makes it all too hard .... of these rebadges machines which only change slightly in spec's but vary greatly in cost.

I would assume from looking at the pictures that the 16a is also made of pressed sheet metal but as long as it runs well it really shouldn't matter. I still like the idea of the large table and the good price.

I will make sure that I check the 16a out prior to the Melbourne show. Is there a listing of who is going to be at the show around yet?

Stinky.

[kenmil]

Evan/Stinky,

Gary Pye Woodturning (in Qld) has what looks to be the same machine as the Carbatec SBW3501 for $599 sale price now. It is described as a 14" heavy duty bandsaw, but at the bottom of the page, it has a model number, and guess what ? It is SBW3501J If he sold several of them at once, he might even do a deal on the freight.

Hmmm... just noticed that a fence is an option on this one.

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/gpwoodturning/14deluxbandsaw.html;)

[craigb]

FWIW, the instruction manual that came with my Jet 14" was excellent. Not a photocopy, clear instructions and plenty of photo's.

Craig

[alf t]

It's getting close to the PWS and I still have not made up my mind except for the fact that I want to cut 200mm and dont want to use a riser. Timbercon have a BAS 350 with a more powerful motor than the others. H&F according to AWR lack a bit in quality control...see issue 36.
Carbatec appears under powered... I cut a lot of burl and only use a 3/16 tpi blade. So where do we go from here?
Alf

[Sir Stinkalot]

Evan,
I am interested to know if a bandsaw runs true because of the model and price ... or if it would be hit and miss what you get out of the box. The reason that I ask is that you stated that "The 1400's inside wheel diameter was out of round and vibrated considerably compared to the 3501" does this mean that the 1400 they have put on display had out of round wheels and the other stock they sell may be round and run true? It is a fault in the manufacture of all machines of this model or is it just the variations between each machine.

Is the display stock any real indication of what you would get at home?

[derekcohen]

Evan

I was thinking the same as Sir S. - partly because I own a BS 1400, and which I purchased after quite a bit of research. Indeed, one of its reputed strengths was in its trueness and allignment. I don't own shares in the company, so I really am not trying to sell the machine - just pass on Best Buy information.

Here is the review from Fine Woodworking magazine:

Regards from Perth

Derek

[philly]

Hi All..
FWIW Ive just purchased the 3501 from Carbatec in sydney. It was set up perfectly straight out of the box and the base was already assembled. It took me less time to assemble the rest than to fit the fence ( no instructions, not as straightforward as you would have thought!). I wonder if you are paying the extra $200 over the Gary Pye version (yes its identical) for a fence and a pre-assemble /set up.
Just a thought.

[Evan Pavlidis]

Originally posted by Sir Stinkalot
Evan,
I am interested to know if a bandsaw runs true because of the model and price ... or if it would be hit and miss what you get out of the box. The reason that I ask is that you stated that "The 1400's inside wheel diameter was out of round and vibrated considerably compared to the 3501" does this mean that the 1400 they have put on display had out of round wheels and the other stock they sell may be round and run true? It is a fault in the manufacture of all machines of this model or is it just the variations between each machine.

Is the display stock any real indication of what you would get at home?

Sir Stinkalot,

I don't think the model & price of a saw is indicative of it's running true; if it is common practice it wouldn't be in the manufacturers best interests.
Yes, the inside wheel diameter of the 1400 was out of round and vibrated more than the 3501; it was very visible.
This could be due to a machine that wasn't manufactured to specifacations, missed the quality inspection and shipped out.

You ask, "Is the display stock any real indication of what you would get at home? "
Maybe, but I'm very deterred in buying a machine that doesn't run true on display at the store. One would think store management would check these things out and tune them up before displaying them.
Would you buy a machine that didn't run true? I don't think anyone would and if they did after trying it out at home they would return it.
Posters have bought the 1400 and are very happy with it; seems like it's a bit of a lucky dip.

Cheers,
Evan

[Toymaker Len]

I just bought the carbatec 18" machine after having a good look at them at the Newcastle wood show. Also had a good look at the comparable Jet machine for roughly seven hundred dollars more. No comparison. Carbatec has just made a great leap forward in both design and quality, you get blade tension meter, quick release blade change, gear driven table angle, roller blade guides, two dust extraction ports, fully welded plate steel frame...I was impressed. Still waiting on delivery though. I am suprised that every body seems to be concerned at the quality of the ripfence on 14" machines. In my experience(12 years nearly every day on the bandsaw) ripfences are next to useless on a bandsaw unless its a very big one running a very big blade. And yes bandsaws are getting cheaper. The current 14" machines are cheaper than the first one I bought in 1991 and a hell of a lot better made.