Nitro laquer

[Phil Mailloux]

Hey guys,

I got a quote for mirotone lacquer today, $39 for 4 litres of the lacquer and $50 for 4 litres of thinner.

Seems like the thinner is expensive to me. Did anyone ever used all-purpose thinners before like you find at Bunnings? Anyone knows if that stuff is compatible with nitro?

[journeyman Mick]

Phil,
you can use the cheap lacquer thinners that Suprecheap Auto and other discount type places sell (about $20 - $25 per 4l) but for the final top coat you should use a good one otherwise I've found that you just don't get the right gloss level (bit dull). I've bought mine from automotive paint suppliers in the past in 20l drums, can't remember how much but it was considerably cheaper than even the el cheapo stuff. As long as it's labelled as lacquer thinners it should be compatible.

Mick

[rhoads56]

You'll get away with most high level thinners, but they are all expensive. From memory, the Mirotone stuff has a slightly different smell to it, compared with other thinners, but maybe im thinking of something else. If you are using thinners to clean your guns, try gun wash, its cheaper, saving you the good stuff for the lacquer.
If its $$ per litre you are worried about, consider a 20 litre drum, should be about $90-130 depending on the source.
Im sure i have a 40 litre drum in stock now that cost $165. Thats $4 a litre.

[dayvo]

Hey Phil
Theyr'e good to you up in Brisbane
I got quoted around $65 @ 4lt Mirotone Nitro Lacquer here in Adelaide and when I told them I was going to use it for guitar building they told me none of their products were suitable for this
Anyhow, I contacted Protec here in Adelaide and I managed to pick up a 4lt of sanding sealer and NC topcoat for the same price. Their top thinners to suit $28 @ 4lt
Ive sprayed a few cars in my time and Ide agree with journeyman Micks comments about using a quality thinner for your final coats

dayvo

[MajorPanic]

Yup! Mirotone thinners ARE EXPENSIVE!!

I paid around $200 (just over, I think) for a 20ltr drum of medium retarder-thinners. :oo: :oo: :oo:

[Phil Mailloux]

Thanks for the reply guys. Perry, I already use gunwash not to use up the good stuff but it was a good tip :D
I think I'll go for the 20 litre stuff anyway. I got quoted 40$ for 4 litres of lacquer and 120$ for 20. Hell of a reduction. At least 20 litres should last me a couple of years. I'll do the same with the thinner.

[zenobia]

Hey, while we are talking about spraying nitro I have a few safety questions.
I read that you have to be careful with venting fans in you spray booth/room as the wrong one can ignite the vapour. Does anyone have any experience with setting up a small booth? Also, I am about to buy some gear and would like to get recommendations about the size of air comp and good gun brands etc. Any help most appreciated.
Cheers
Dom

[Malibu]

Gday Dom
Generaly speaking from an electrical view, motors, lights and any electrical devices must have a 'Class 1, Zone 1' rating (ie: explosion proof. It's not designed to keep the gases out, but to keep the explosion in). It's easy to tell if it has this rating by the chunky look of the equipment and the overuse of bolts to hold it all together. If there's a nameplate on it, somewhere there will be 'Ex' stamped on it.
There are ways around it though... Such as mounting lights external to the booth and sealing them up and purging them with air from a safe zone. Motors for extraction fans can be mounted external as well (in a safe area) with a belt drive to the fan impellor.
Class 1, Zone 1 equipment would be out of the budget for home spray booths. For example, a normal oyster light fitting would be 50 bucks and an Ex rated fitting about 500 (A guess, but horrendously priced stuff!).
Using a radio, drill or even a normal extension lead in an explosion zone is big time taboo!
Hope this helps :)

[stevelkneivel]

Hey Guys. Just browsing, and saw a post for Nitro Laquer. Please allow me to share my, and my guitar builder mates experience with Mirotone. First, I know it is expensive, but as an acid catylised laquer, It really needs its its own specific thinners. You can use other thinners, but it will craze. If thats what you want, use it, It works for "relic-ing" guitars etc. The other problem is, Super cheap auto thinners makes it go jelly like in the gun. If you use the correct thinners, then gun cleaner to clean, look out. It will clag up and then you gotta strip the gun. I flush and blow back the gun with M/tone thinners, then do the same with s/cheap thinners, then use M/tone to keep the gun wet when it's idle. Yes...I know it's expensive, but believe me, after spraying dozens of guitars, just use the right thinners. Scraping a guitar back because it's got a crap finnish is boring. I also use a gravity feed gun, it's more economical, and easier to clean Now..3602 laquer is good, but toxic as all get out. 3606 is just as good, and less toxic. STILL TOXIC!! I hope you have a positive pressure mask, booth or carbon mask or a good combination. Also, Protec Nitro doesn't go as hard as an acid cat, it doesn't look as good either in my opinion. Also, if you go too hard with the buff it will drag and is less forgiving.Sorry about that. Also...Hi build sealers are convenient, but they are not totally transparent, and look cloudy, I am a bit fussy maybe but there it is. They also chip "white" and are horrible to repair and touch up, if you have ever tried to fix a chip in a post 1990 Maton, you know what I mean. The best grain filler for Mirotone is a slow cure epoxy resin like Megapoxy by resimax. BoatCote is a rip-off, but excellent in use. Use top coat as a build coat. 6 coats 20% reduced, then sand back with 600 wet, then hit it with a 30% reduced top coat x 2 in one go, and you will see a good result. Dust proof fans with no ingress cavities will work as flame proof fans. But if you wanna be sure, spend the money on a certified fan!! Cheers, good luck, I hope this helps someone. I have been wrestling this stuff for years with guidence, and still get frustrated. Steve.

[Phil Mailloux]

Interesting post Steve :) So I guess from your post you usse Mirotone's Acid-Catalyst lacquer? That's a different product than Nitro though.

So I went to Mirotone's office today to get my nitro-cellulose which the lady on the phone reserved for me. (product name:Mirolac) I end up getting a tin of Mirocat (pre-catalized lacquer). I obviously asked the lady what's the deal since I specifically asked for Mirolac nitro-cellulose lacquer. She had no idea what I was talking about. The other guy in the office strarts asking me why I want that and they haven't made that stuff for years and blah-blah-blah. Why the hell is that product on their website if they don't make it!!!!!!

So I ended up leaving with a tin of mirocat anyway. The spec sheets made it look pretty similar to nitro. I guess I'll try that stuff. I have to finish a hardwood desk I just build so it'll give me a chance to try it before I use it on a bass.

Anybody tried Mirocat before? Any opinions?
And their acid-catalyst one (mirobild)? Anyone use it or like it? (Steve?)

[journeyman Mick]

Phil,
I've used nothing but Mirocat for about 5 years now. I do recall quite a few years back when I asked for NC lacquer (Mirolac) I was told by my supplier that they no longer carried it as most people prefered the pre cat (Mirocat). I"ve also used the acid cure (can't remember which one) as it was specced for a job. Pros and cons of each:

Mirocat:
Pros:
cheap (relatively speaking)
sands very easily with very minimal clogging of abrasives
easily refinished
applies very easily
not too toxic
smell is not too strong and disperses quickly
Cons:
very sensitive to white "bloom" or "blush" if spraying in high humidity/low temp (but easily remedied by warming the piece up in the sun the next day and spraying it with thinners)
not as hard wearing as acid cure

Acid cat:
Pros:
much more forgiving of high humidity/low temp conditions, BUT if you do get blush you'll need to sand back and spray again.
much harder wearing than pre-cat
Cons:
more expensive than pre-cat
extremely unpleasant, toxic fumes which take quite a while to disperse
doesn't sand as easily and clogs paper more than pre-cat
refinishing requires sanding right back

On the whole, nowadays I'm more likely to apply a coating which I know will be easy to eventually refinish rather than one which is a lot harder wearing but which requires considerable effort to refinish. (In other words I'd use pre-cat over acid cure or poly-u 2 pack)

Mick

[Phil Mailloux]

Thanks Mick,

How would you compare the solidity of the Mirocat film compared with NC?

[zenobia]

Thanks for the safety advice Malibu. And to all the other contributors for the handy tips. I read somewhere in here that hard shellac does a good job without the problems with NC. Might try that until I get myself organised with proper spray gear.
Cheers
Dom

[kiwigeo]

Thanks for the safety advice Malibu. And to all the other contributors for the handy tips. I read somewhere in here that hard shellac does a good job without the problems with NC. Might try that until I get myself organised with proper spray gear.
Cheers
Dom

Dom, PaulB has used Ubeaut brand hard shellac on his guitars. PM him for details.

Im going to try the stuff on my next classical.

Cheers Martin

[kiwigeo]

So I went to Mirotone's office today to get my nitro-cellulose which the lady on the phone reserved for me. (product name:Mirolac) I end up getting a tin of Mirocat (pre-catalized lacquer). I obviously asked the lady what's the deal since I specifically asked for Mirolac nitro-cellulose lacquer. She had no idea what I was talking about. The other guy in the office strarts asking me why I want that and they haven't made that stuff for years and blah-blah-blah. Why the hell is that product on their website if they don't make it!!!!!!

(Steve?)

What sort of service is that?? You didn't get what you asked for and sounds like they didnt really care.

Mirotone off my list of suppliers.

[echnidna]

Nitro C lacquer is redundant and has been for many years

Mirocat is the modern equivalent.

From a practical viewpoint theres no difference

[kiwigeo]

Nitro C lacquer is redundant and has been for many years

Mirocat is the modern equivalent.

From a practical viewpoint theres no difference

With all due respect if you order a specific product advertised on a company's website and the supplier agrees to supply same then its reasonable to expect to be given what you ordered. If the supplier decided that theres a replacement product that in their opinion does the same job then they should at least notify the customer of their intention to supply a replacement product. In this case the supplier didnt know what the product was going to be used for and didnt take the courtesy to notify Phil that the product he saw advertised on the website was no longer available...they waited until he rocked up to pick up his order to eventually let him know that this was the case.

I still regard it as p*ss poor service no matter how good the product is.

[journeyman Mick]

Phil,
like Bob says, there's no noticeable difference.

Kiwigeo,
to be strictly accurate, Mirocat IS a NC lacquer, just precatalysed. Yes, pretty slack to leave out of date info up on the web site, but I wouldn't write Mirotone out of the picture because of it. I know diddly about instrument making, but in commercial furniture and cabinet making applications Mirotone is the industry standard.

Mick

[Phil Mailloux]

So what's a pre-catalysed NC exactly? What makes it better than plain jane old NC?
Does Mirocat crack like an old painting over the years like NC does?

[journeyman Mick]

Phil,
sorry, don't know. Presumably it's better than plain old NC lacquer, but how and why I don't know. Sorry:B

Mick

[journeyman Mick]

Phil, (and others)
if you're after cheap thinners Supa cheap auto have their GP lacquer thinners on special $14.00 for 4 litres until 19/01.

Mick

[MoonShine]

Thanks Mick:~ Just paid $10 for a litre of Lacquer Thinner at Bunnings. Off to SuperElCheapo I go:).

Doing up an old acoustic guitar here and paid $20 for a Litre of 95% Gloss PreCat. A litre is much more than I need once thinned and also using it to finish leatherwork that I'm doing and will still have enough to spray something else around the house.
Like maybe the missus, the dog, the fence, the car???:o

I'd like to follow up with a question if I could, whats the best way to remove Carnauba Wax before spraying please?...(or should I start a new thread?)

Thanks.

[jordanreyno]

Hi guys, dispite their poor customer service, i personally have had to deal with them quite recently and it wasn't too pleasant, Mirotone are still very good lacquer suppliers and i will continue to use them for a long time due to their high quality products.
i work in a guitar repair and custom work shop in Adelaide and we use the acid cat (3606) for our vintage touch ups/ refinishes and our custom builds, this is a beautiful looking lacquer when applied properly and is rock hard leaving a mirror like shine and almost crystal clear, as long as it is used and its own sealer we have found this is the best for high quality instruments easily on par with nitro.
The Poly U is what we use for the majority of touch ups on modern guitars as most modern manufacturers use a poly based finnish of some sort and it will bleed in with the original lacquer well, but as mentioned before it does have a tendency to move and fold slightly when polishes if not applied perfectly especially on touch ups.
hope this helps new visitors, its obviously not going to help the original poster :doh:

Rock On guys

[Phil Mailloux]

You're a godsend, I just switched from Mirolac to AC 3606 and its annoying the hell outta me. (and I AM the original poster) Can you give me some tips? :D

I get bubbles in my finish, I'm spraying at 40psi, thinned at about 20%, I feel like I'm putting very little finish on my bodies or the finish sags big time. How many coats do you put on a raw body? Do you really have to sand between coats? Seem like I'm busy sanding for an hour between coats :((