Dingo's St Valery

[Boatmik]

Cheers Dingo,

I thought I would take the liberty of opening a thread. Not pressuring at all.

I have some pics of St Val that you and midge sent me some time ago. I've attached a jpg below so ppl will have some idea.

With the centreboard way forward - I think it is a pretty crap idea - I've sailed one of Bolger's Cartoppers with the same setup and thought it ruined the sailing performance of what would have otherwise been a very sweet boat.

Particularly when you need to manouver. The boat just dies as soon as you start to tack and never makes it through stays. And I think that you could get an offcentre board in this boat that would not be so noticeable. In line with the front of the galley and running back under the cockpit.

As far as upwind goes - if it wasn't going to be trailered often I'd consider getting rid of the water ballast and using lead in either a shoe or a (or increasing the water ballast.

I suspect that the builder's were not ready for the amount of labour because they were not quite aware of just what a big boat this is for its size. Quite a bit of building. Can't see any particular problem about that if my understanding is right that she has a flat bottom panel and clinker topsides with ply bulwarks.

Just some thoughts and no pressure at all (I don't like it either!)

MIK

[Wild Dingo]

Boatmik
Deeply flawed human being

Livin up to your tagline Mik? :U

You dont like her? WHY?? Whats not to like? I mean comeon ol fella!! Okay aside from the centreboard issues whats not to like? okay asside from the water ballast thing whats not to like? :roll: :;

Okay maybe I am a rash emotional hooman bean who has a mental block when it comes to luggars :B ...but mate shes just a sweetheart :cool:

mmm alright then mate we all know you can draw and design soooo...

que the mission impossible musak

"Your mission Mik if you take it is to redesign the St Valery with the offset centreboards and with a better ballast system that along with an easier build method... this message wont self destruct in 5 seconds if you dont take the mission"

This may eventuate with a whole new design concept but we are game are we not? :2tsup:

So Mik if you please hit the drawing board and see what you come up with ol matey... now see there may well even be a commission in this for you :; Wont be much since Im just a broken down truck driver but hey you will make one broken down truck driver a very happy one eh!! :2tsup:

[onthebeachalone]

if my understanding is right that she has a flat bottom panel and clinker topsides with ply bulwarks.

Looks like it eh! http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1487099996051159125VHUfEZ

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/%5BURL=http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1487099996051159125VHUfEZ%5D%5BIMG%5Dhttp://thumb5.webshots.net/t/63/163/9/99/96/487099996VHUfEZ_th.jpg%5B/IMG%5D%5B/URL%5DI'm interested in this because I had something similar (but smaller) in mind for my next project (This year? Next year?). i.e roundish bilge, off-centre centreboard, roomy cockpit, unstayed mast(s).

Would it be true to say -

1. The appeal is mainly to do with it having the "look and feel" of a little sailing ship?

2. If there is reasonable head-room in the cabin, under the flush deck, the bunks/settees must be pretty low and you might be sitting with your ears between your knees?

3. There's a lot of space under the aft deck, and cockpit well, that is pretty unuseable except as stowage.

I agree with MIK about the centreboard. An off-centre one amidships would sail better and make better use of the space. As it is it must depend heavily on the lateral resistance of the rudder for balance.

Given that the cost and effort of building boats seem to be roughly proportional to the cube of the length this seems to be a costly proposition. Something more compact could provide just as much boat at considerably less cost.

I note here http://timkeeshen.tripod.com/thebuildingofstvalery/ that, even with the roomy after deck, folks still sit on the bulwark rail. Looks to me as though they would feel more comfortable if the cockpit well was bigger and the bulwark was just a coaming.

What do you reckon Dingo? What are the features that grab you? Are they about aesthetics, practicality, speed, romance???

Anyway, that's my 5 cents worth. No doubt about it, Bolger's designs get talked about.


http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/%5Burl=http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1487099996051159125VHUfEZ%5D%5Bimg=http://thumb5.webshots.net/t/63/163/9/99/96/487099996VHUfEZ_th.jpg%5D%5B/url%5D

[Iain]

How's about adapting the twin keel from the Jedda, shallow draught without retractable keels.

[Wild Dingo]

Well... that bloke got a long way eh? :B

Okay so at least hes got the plans and made a start :doh:

So what is it about St Valery? I think its the aesthetics and look of her see Ive been a luggar nut for some years now and well havent found one I could afford or that could be trailered around... well at a usual length of 50ft it would be a tad tough on the old EFFY :no: So I had a go at redesigning Trixen (the one in the WA Maritime museum) that a mate in Sydney had sent me the drawings of down to 26ft and although I think it wasnt too shabby for a first effort I kept going back to St. Valery... hell why re-invent the wheel :roll:

Sooo now were interested in the insides? Okay I will see what pics I have of her and put them in here

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4dc05b3127cce9b837a0f8e3f00000015108AZMnLNy2ctL

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4dc05b3127cce9b837a040f0400000015108AZMnLNy2ctL

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4dc05b3127cce9b837a020f0200000015108AZMnLNy2ctL

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4dc05b3127cce9b837a000f0000000015108AZMnLNy2ctL

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4dc05b3127cce9b837a0e0f0e00000015108AZMnLNy2ctL

Okay so now we see several things...

1) She looks bloody wonderous
2) Theres plenty of deck room although I will agree the cockpit is a bit small
3) the balwarks are large and contain the children well
4) The centreboard does NOT appear to cause any problems in the cabin
5) She looks bloody wonderous

Oh and the rudder stresses made by the centreboard bein up front? The rudder is also of huge proportions to couteract that... now how tarzanish one would have to be to move the thing is unknown.

Now although it may sound like Im totally smitten and cant wont or somehow cannot hear the "voice of reason" if it presents itself... hell I did with the Wharrams!!... lets just say this one has most of what I require in the looks and "feel" departments and like any boat could be enhanced or refined by a clear new looksee by others with more talent at redesigning than me

Okay lets change that word shall we? somehow its a bit of a worry... so lets make it a challenge another contest if you will such as what happened for Phil Bolger to create St Valery... you know what a Peal Luggar looks like you know a fair bit about them some of you know about other types of luggars and now you have some info on St Valery... so the important things with this contest

1) must be a reletively easy build
2) must not exceed 26ft LOA
3) must be trailerable!! So weight must be kept down
4) must be easily rigged and sailed... ie lug in keeping with the luggar thing :doh:
5) an outboard must not protrude from her bum to detract from the look of her
6) headroom inside for a shortass... 5' 4-6in under the cabin top
7) large wide decks
8) high bulwarks
9) capable of weekends or weeks away
10) keep the depth small if centreboards used since it will be used often in shallow water
11) must be also able to do some deep water sailing
12) must have the look of a luggar... Broome pearl in preference but any of the luggar styles if thats too hard :;
13) what else? Did I forget anything?

Okay there we go... you have your design perameters... this could change when and if we consider other things of vital importance

[onthebeachalone]

13) what else? Did I forget anything?

Any minimum dimensions?

Does it have to be lap-strake, or would alternative constructions methods be considered?

[Boatmik]

You dont like her? WHY?? Whats not to like?

Howdy Dingo,

No - I don't want to mess with her too much. I like almost everything, but I cant abide a boat doesn't SAIL well in all directions. That is where the safety is and about four thirds of the pleasure.

As OnTheBeach points out - its the whole "Little Ship" that makes her so attractive. (and thanks for the image of the model OTBA!!! - it clears up a lot of things! )

And because I like just about everything I have no great heart to meddle with her too much.

All I can see is that perhaps she has a lack of stability - which is why she doesn't go upwind OK.

You see ... I can't possibly blame the lugsails - after all I have one boat with two of them and one design with a single lug - and upwind - they go fine - or more than fine.

Even though they don't seem to be using enough downhaul on the boom to tension the luff and leach - you have to be SERIOUS about downhaul tension on these sails - get it right and they start pointing and footing just about with modern rigs of the same sail area.

I can sail about even with a reasonably well sailed Laser with the canoe and the GIS will frighten more conventional boats upwind - unless they resort to trapezes and such.

So if you can't blame the rig, can you blame the hull?

It looks sweet enough to me - maybe some extra windage in the bulwarks - but we don't want to lose them.

So I head the blame toward the foil configuration and stability - there is nothing else that I can see that might be causing those problems.

So my approach is to do the minimum - just about everything is right.

MIK

[Boatmik]

I think lapstrake is a good choice - My feeling after seeing lots of people build boats with lots of different methods that lapstrake is the second fastest modern method.

Like my preferred building method with the prefab ply panels is going to whip everything else - no strongback and it all just whacks together - but you are not going to get a shape like this.

Cedar strip can be beautiful, but Oh So Slooooooow - too many little bits - unless you get a team together and really get stuck into it.

Lapstrake is a good compromise - the bits are quite large and they are complete when they go into place - particularly if the inside of the ply planks has been precoated with the dreaded pox and sanded ready for gluing and/or painting later.

With St Valery there are only 6 planks per side. That deck is going to take a bit of mucking around with to sort out those different levels - and if the interior is made complicated - well you are asking to
a/ spend lots more on materials
b/ add one or more stretches of 6 months before the boat hits the water.

Looking at St Val I reckon that the building difficulty that they are talking about revolved around the interior and the temptations of using "all the space" as well as getting the multi levels of the deck sorted. And it might be a bit of an apology from the builder for the owner's ears too.

ORRRRR maybe it could simply be that she is such a big little boat - you have to pay for that somewhere - particularly if you take the opportunity to add complication.

C'mon ... have a think about it and get back.

I don't want to draw up something new - it doesn't make economical sense - it would be a design for one person to build (realistically) so the whole cost of development would be borne by one person.

And it would be competing with the original St Val.

That's why I design boats I like and then release them in the marketplace - there's reasonable odds that if my thinking is right then I will get a bit of money from a lot of people - whereas designing a boat for a single person - the boat becomes so much "their boat" that it won't suit anyone else.

Not griping here - I have drawn up a few bigger boats for specific customers - charged them a song on the assumption that I'd be able to sell more down the line - but found that their decisions and choices through the design and building process made it impossible to sell more plans.

So - lets look at the original and see what can be done.

Does anyone know from the articles whether she is specified in traditional lapstrake or glued lap. Is there any mention of the thickness of planking, bottom and deck?

MIK

[onthebeachalone]

I think lapstrake is a good choice - My feeling after seeing lots of people build boats with lots of different methods that lapstrake is the second fastest modern method.
On the topic of lapstrake MIK. (Presumably we are talking glued lapstrake ply, not clench-nailed or riveted planks.)

Would you incorporate permanent bulkheads in the skin construction, or build the skin over temporary moulds and add bulkheads later? I pondered this with my little curlew and opted for multi-chine planks over the permanent bulkheads as it seemed easier. It turned out to be so, everything pre-cut very precisely and it all fitted together (almost) perfectly. However, I can't imagine doing it quite the same on a boat of this size (i.e.25ft).

:; Good thread by the way, scope for limitless deviations...

[Boatmik]

Howdy J,

It does depend - I've seen it done both ways.

The big risk of putting the permanent bulkheads in is that it is possible to get epoxy dripped all over the things or ugly bits of gluing that the bulkhead stops you from getting to to clean things up.

Also having the bulkheads in place may get in the way of some other building work in some areas.

If you work clean or hang plastic on the bulkheads so you can't get drips etc then building over the permanent bhds is no big deal.

So perhaps it is OK if you can plan to that level of detail.

Michael

[Wild Dingo]

resurection time!!! :;

Just thinking about Valery and found this old thread... so thinking here lets say get rid of the water ballast and then get rid of the monster of a centre board up front... mmm move it back shrink it and add outside keel ballast to equalize it a tad while were at it lets shrink that bloody monster of a rudder to something a tad more reasonable

I have no issues with the deck other than making the cockpit bigger probably just widen it 6in or so but otherwise everything else lets leave alone for now

So the questions
1) how much do we reduce the centreboard?
2) do we locate it just inside the cabin?
3) how much external ballast do we need?
4) how much do we reduce the rudder?

Thinking... if we get rid of the water ballast that should open up the cabin some giving more internal room as in height no? this I think would be somewhat of a good thing for weekends away...

Thinking again... by reducing the size of the centreboard and its location back into the cabin entrance area should also mean a bit more space being opened up no?

asthetically topsides other than the damned small cockpit I would think shes quite the goods... as to the build method it wouldnt faze me one iota going to planking...

so on that note lets take that thinking to the next level...

And try to make her a "real" lugger and make the planks out of good timber say Jarrah (which by the way I would have enough of for this build or of a similar length) we would of course require a keel and since weve done away with the water ballast lets continue and do away with the centreboard altogether (hate the bloody things anyways) so we now have several other issues to direct our energies to

1) how thick planks?
2) What size keel.. and should we laminate these and have an inner and outter keel or simply use the bloody great chunks of 4x6 Jarrah I have scarf them together and have a single keel

Okay so its a whole different kettle of fish as we can see... so more thinking and more questions

1) how much external ballast would be required given the above
2) given the heavier timber used (ie: Jarrah over Ply) this would necessitate a smaller amount of external ballast no? how much?
3) Where would you locate that ballast

See with the above Im starting to see the shape coming out of a true luggar...

More thoughts... see her stern I HATE that stern... I think we would since were doin a few mods need to change that to a more authentic Luggar stern vis a vie the Broome Pearl Luggar type stern which at least to my eye is far more sweeter... so thinking

1) at what point on the boats bum do we start the upsweep to the transom
2) this then makes me wonder about the tiller rudder section which would of necessity have to drop through ala the original luggars... at what point on its bum do we do this?
3) IF we do this where can we locate the outboard so its not obvious... perhaps a box somewhere and under a cutaway so itcan be lifted and still not detract?

See unlike yous lazy buggars Im still thinkin here!! :q Mind you unlike yous mob Valery is never far from my thoughts... but see youve got me to thinking of improvements that would not only benefit the sailability of her but through that sailability also the safety along with gaining more internal space and a better cockpit area which as skipper would be bloody wonderous... I do like to stretch me humungous 5ft 6in bod out when on the tiller :U

Actually Im wondering... how about we make it so shes still beachable somehow? dont wanna be stuck out when we can head in eh?... so were what? back to the bloody centreboard arent we? or am I imagining this keel too big? okay over to you... I think... I may wander back as the thoughts keep flowing to add bits and peices unless yous mob step up...

thinking again...
1) what about trying to keep as much of that bum as we can? can we do that and keep the upsweep to the transom Im thinking of?
2) would we loose that bum width as we change the centreboard to a keel?
3) How can we manage to keep as wide a bum under the waterline for beaching and shallow waters while gaining that look Im going for?

Okay hopefully thats got your mushy stuff moving :2tsup:

Oh and Mik? Mate Im not asking you to design her for me just help move me along a tad... having the shape and basic measurements I think I can draw her out myself (over some months sweating blood and tears and monsterous amounts of paper!!)... and for preference Id rather not build ply and pox... just me is all... and Ive got a shyteload of proper timber and buggar all ply and her highness has restricted my use abuse of money till houses are sorted... but I could start IF I can get this sorted a bit more eh?

ooh and these are just random thoughts that I had as I typed the first section.. imagine how increadibly insane theyre gonna get once I start to drawing!!! :doh:

[Boatmik]

resurection time!!! :;

Just thinking about Valery and found this old thread... so thinking here lets say get rid of the water ballast and then get rid of the monster of a centre board up front... mmm move it back shrink it and add outside keel ballast to equalize it a tad while were at it lets shrink that bloody monster of a rudder to something a tad more reasonable

I have no issues with the deck other than making the cockpit bigger probably just widen it 6in or so but otherwise everything else lets leave alone for now

So the questions
1) how much do we reduce the centreboard?
2) do we locate it just inside the cabin?
3) how much external ballast do we need?
4) how much do we reduce the rudder?

Don't reduce the centreboard - but if you add some external ballast that means the bottom edge of the retracted centreboard can now line up with the ballast. Using this trick with the NIS23 I managed to drop the case down by 250mm - doesn't sound like much - but geez it makes a huge difference in the interior. Also changed the shape of the board to reduce the impact on the interior.

External ballast in line with the quanity of water ballast - will give slightly increased stability at no extra weight.


Thinking... if we get rid of the water ballast that should open up the cabin some giving more internal room as in height no? this I think would be somewhat of a good thing for weekends away...A little bit - you still need the structural floors across the boat with the sole over the top.


Thinking again... by reducing the size of the centreboard and its location back into the cabin entrance area should also mean a bit more space being opened up no?I'd NEVER reduce the "in the water area" of the centreboard but there is often a lot that can be done as far as cabin projection. Another thing is it is OK to trade some area - particularly if you add length (depth to the board)


asthetically topsides other than the damned small cockpit I would think shes quite the goods... as to the build method it wouldnt faze me one iota going to planking...

so on that note lets take that thinking to the next level...

And try to make her a "real" lugger and make the planks out of good timber say Jarrah (which by the way I would have enough of for this build or of a similar length) we would of course require a keel and since weve done away with the water ballast lets continue and do away with the centreboard altogether (hate the bloody things anyways) so we now have several other issues to direct our energies toBAD, BAD, BAD, BAD, BAD Idea.

She is designed in Bolger style - which will be softwood. Jarrah will increase her weight (DOUBLE!!!) and raise her centre of gravity so much that you will end up with a horrid handling boat. Wet - unstable.

Only way to do that is to start again using VAL as a basis. But all that extra weight will mean bigger sail, bigger spars, more ballast (to retain the ratio with the now heavier hull.

Love her for what she is!!!

See with the above Im starting to see the shape coming out of a true luggar...


More thoughts... see her stern I HATE that stern... I think we would since were doin a few mods need to change that to a more authentic Luggar stern vis a vie the Broome Pearl Luggar type stern which at least to my eye is far more sweeter... so thinking

1) at what point on the boats bum do we start the upsweep to the transom
2) this then makes me wonder about the tiller rudder section which would of necessity have to drop through ala the original luggars... at what point on its bum do we do this?
3) IF we do this where can we locate the outboard so its not obvious... perhaps a box somewhere and under a cutaway so itcan be lifted and still not detract?

I think these are much more minor questions
1/ You'de have to draw it out - see what works then work out the displacement and centre of buoyancy.
2/ So long as it has a rudder and it is big enough and deep enough - then it will work. Transom hung certainly makes the shoal draft and rudder construction easy
3/ Minor point - maybe a well at the back of the now stretched cockpit?


See unlike yous lazy buggars Im still thinkin here!! :q Mind you unlike yous mob Valery is never far from my thoughts... but see youve got me to thinking of improvements that would not only benefit the sailability of her but through that sailability also the safety along with gaining more internal space and a better cockpit area which as skipper would be bloody wonderous... I do like to stretch me humungous 5ft 6in bod out when on the tiller :U Maybe a mild stretch to the boat. Generally stretching is the least harmful sort of change - as long as whoever does it works out the correct sail and appendage config to match.


Actually Im wondering... how about we make it so shes still beachable somehow? dont wanna be stuck out when we can head in eh?... so were what? back to the bloody centreboard arent we? or am I imagining this keel too big? okay over to you... I think... I may wander back as the thoughts keep flowing to add bits and peices unless yous mob step up... Just the lead of the original ballast in a shoe - increasing her draft 100mm with the Centreboard dropping down through the middle.


thinking again...
1) what about trying to keep as much of that bum as we can? can we do that and keep the upsweep to the transom Im thinking of?
2) would we loose that bum width as we change the centreboard to a keel?
3) How can we manage to keep as wide a bum under the waterline for beaching and shallow waters while gaining that look Im going for?

Okay hopefully thats got your mushy stuff moving :2tsup:

Oh and Mik? Mate Im not asking you to design her for me just help move me along a tad... having the shape and basic measurements I think I can draw her out myself (over some months sweating blood and tears and monsterous amounts of paper!!)... and for preference Id rather not build ply and pox... just me is all... and Ive got a shyteload of proper timber and buggar all ply and her highness has restricted my use abuse of money till houses are sorted... but I could start IF I can get this sorted a bit more eh?

ooh and these are just random thoughts that I had as I typed the first section.. imagine how increadibly insane theyre gonna get once I start to drawing!!! The shallow draft idea is a good one to keep methinks. Makes so much sense.

No problems at all with that Wild Doggie - nice to run into you again. Hope this gives some food for thought.

Nothing is set in concrete - you can do anything - provided you put up with the consequences!

[Boatmik]

Just revised my above reply - click refresh in your browser if you looked at it more than 10 minutes ago.