Dust Extraction

[barnsey]

Have been reading the rather long dissertation on this and the comments of Bill Pentz - I think I spelt that correctly!! - I have decided to do a bit about this coz it seems now in my 50's I don't tolerate the dust and crap as well as the old grey mare used to!!??

Bought a 1200cfm machine at the Bris Wood Show and am in the throes of trying to find inlet receptacles for the tools I have. This is now being made complex by all I'm now reading.

There are those on the net that seem to have done something about removing the denser stuff using a 44 gallon drum or even a plastic rubbish bin as a collection unit before the inlet of their DC. None of it sounds considered in view of the expertise displayed by Bill and his colleagues.

I served an engineering apprenticeship so I can understand the theory but I ain't no air engineer. From a hobbyist/retired guy's workshop perspective can I get close to adequate extraction by modifying the current DC to a 6" inlet, duct the shop(garage) in 6" PVC pipe using only smooth lined 6" flex to the machines and maybe some form of collector prior to the DC.

I guess the prospect of building a cyclone is a little daunting and when Triton release their new respirator I'm in for one.

Anyone else out there got any ideas??

Seems to me that the whole subject is grossly under done and that there is a lot of room for some knowledgable people to be able to put a worthwhile product on the market with real potential!!

[Wayne Davy]

Barnsey,

I take it the D/C you bought is at least a 2hp (forget the 1200cfm rating - it is crap). This is what I used for the blower/motor for my Cyclone. Building one is not really all that hard. My main problem was trying to solder it up which I did not really need to do. I was just trying to make it look the best which does not matter one bit as far as performance goes. What does matter is making sure it is air tight. So, caulk it (liquid nails) and put flashing tape over the joins - not one leak.

As for the 6", I think your D/C will have a 6" inlet but it will have a 6" to two 4" Wye attached to it. Remove this and you have one 6". If not, you can take of the blower plate and make a new one out of MDF or PLY with a 6" hole. Get some 6" pvc and cut of a bit from the Mating end which you can liquid nail into the replacement PLY plate.

[Wayne Davy]

Yes, connecting to the Machines is fun (Not). At the moment mine are all still 4" BUT I have 6" running all the way to the machines so I only have a small length of 4" flex to each machine. Over time I will be making replacement 6" ports for each one.

I totally agree that some company should produce one (for a reasonable price) and I have talked to a few people in the various Coy's but I don't get much (read No) interest. Apparently, years ago, nearly all of them had a Cyclone available but not one bit of interest from the Woodies so they wont stock them anymore. I have mentioned that that was before we knew about the dangers of the fine wood dust and they as still not interested. I know that The Woodman group make Cyclones but these are Big Commercial units (very expensive) and I have heard they might have a small unit coming out but I think it will still be expensive for hobbist's.

So, build one like me.

[John G]

As long as the cheapest way to get a blower for a cyclone is to just buy a 2hp DC, throw away the bags and just use the blower, then why would any company bother making a cyclone? When we are all buying their DC units we don't even use!
(am I being cynical?)

[Wayne Davy]

John,

Of course they will all be happy selling us 2hp D/C as they are in business. As for the bits that get thrown out, there is not really much value there when you look at them. A bit of curved sheet metal and two crappy cloth bags (which are probably really rated at 300micron + not 30 micron).

However, if they made a well designed 2hp Cyclone available for, say, $600, I think they might be surprised at how many they sold once word got out.

Ever since I started the Cyclone thread/project, I get a message or email at least once a week from lurkers on the forum with questions about buying or making a Cyclone. So I believe the interest is out there.

[q9]

Well what sort of interest is there for a prefab kit then? ie bolt together kit with motor, mounts/frame and sealed bin? And what price would you guys think is reasonable?

[barnsey]

I like your thinking q9.

Ok all you lurkers out there, if we could find a sheet metal fabricator to take the essence of Bill Pentz's design and fabricate a kit that you might assemble - what would the response be. How many of us want to protect ouselves and might I add our families from the perils of this dusty crap.

SWMBO is at me endlessly for the amount of dust I introduce into the house. What price to earn a brownie point or two???!!!

Wayne - thanks for your input - you are only just up the road and I spent a fair bit of my life soldering so I'm determined that if I take on this project it will be A1 quality - damn there goes my greatest weakness again!!!!:D

Perhaps Bill would be prepared to send us some full scale drawings from the HP Plotter so that we can get some unused production capacity utilised to make a few cyclones?????????????

[barnsey]

Wayne - yes it is the 2hp unit - rated at 7.5 amps - best I make sure it is turned on before anything else or I won't be popular when the TV and PC take a dive on the overload!!!!!

[Wayne Davy]

Barnsey,

You sure do as the startup uses lots of juice. When I turn mine on, the lights in the Shop dim!!

[trevorZ]

Just a thought but, cyclones have been and are used a fair bit on farms and rural industries for a loong time for collecting grain and hay after it is cracked or hammer milled. It could be another area where cyclones could be found or sourced.

[Wayne Davy]

Barnsey,

You don't really need the full size plan but I suppose it would be nice. Measuring out and cutting the steel were the easy parts. Rolling, Bending and Joining was the hardest bit as you must make sure it is circular not oval!

As for making up a kit like Terry Hatfield does, that would be great. I think that two different Cone lengths, short (1.67 drum height multiple) and long (3 multiple) which is the optimum but makes for a very tall cyclone.

[Wayne Davy]

Trevor,

On Bill Pentz's site he mentions Grain Cyclones and says that they are not designed for picking up wood chips/dust.

[kenmil]

The only thing that deterred me from building one was the sheet metal cutout. The drawings on Bill's site are extremely confusing, I must say. If the metal was prefabricated I am happy with the soldering/jointing etc. The rest is relatively straightforward.
I have seen a site in the USA where a guy offers a"kit" of sheet metal parts already cut, but I can't remember where it was.

[Wayne Davy]

Ken,

Bill Pentz's site has a link to Terry Hatfields site which is the guy that has the Cyclone Kits available.

The address is:
http://www.dusteliminator.com/

Cheers,

[bill pentz]

Barnsey & Friends,

You know I kind of like this site. It is one of the few places I can visit and still be a junior member!

Sorry there are so many dimensions on my cyclone plan, clearly my fault because I made it scalable to work from a 1.5 up to a 5 hp motor, plus vary both the cone length and inlet size. For what it is worth my son and I laid out and cut the sheetmetal (I get a handicap because he helped!) in about 3 hours. Building his oak pedestal desk was a lot harder and far more complex. The rest is pretty straight forward with as detailed step by step instructions as I've been able to write.

I did finish up the draft of my DC Testing & Measurement (http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/measurement.html) page and it is now there for folks to look over.

In terms of using the so called 1200 CFM dust collectors to power the cyclones, that is really not the best solution. DC makers size their impellers to not burn up the motors if the DC is run with no ducting or flex hose attached. That means when we add the overhead of ducting, filters, and cyclone, the impellers are not big enough and the system becomes air-starved with the motors running well below capacity. It is then time to either change impeller speeds with a pulley or put in a bigger impeller. I've tested a bunch now and most are far happier with a 13" impeller instead of the standard 12" that comes with these units. (Please forgive the Imperial units - live in the sticks).

The other question is do I have and would I give a CAD file to someone who wants to go into production building my plan for sale. Let's see here, two years of most of the spare time in my life giving away free detailed plans that cost me having to buy and test two DCs, one cyclone, eighteen impellers, six motors, build and test six cyclones with at least thirty different options, borrow and test over a dozen DCs and six more cyclones, and also buying $600 worth of custom testing gear. Add roughly four hours a day answering emails and updating web pages for more than a year. Total return $0 and total asked for $0. And no, I'm not going to take responsiblity to give someone a business that they are not willing to at least work hard enough to copy a working plan that has been built by over 200 people.

*smile*

bill

[q9]

Well the idea I'd have in mind would be the metal pressings in halves to allow bolting together (keeping a flush surface on the inside) a standard motor mounting kit etc + motor. I wouldn't imagine anyone would have a problem supplying their own bin. But of course the press mold will need to be costed, motors sourced and costed...

So it gets back to where ($$) does the interest stop? Obviously this would need to pay for itself, I need to know at what dollar value is it no point in proceeding. It can be done, but if no-one is going to buy it at $X then...

[Pulpo]

Wayne

Do you know the size of your impeller?

Is it made of steel?

Do you know if the impeller is different for the 3 hp motor.

Although I have looked at some DC units and guessed at sizes I could not be too sure of sizes.

Cutting the template of the Cyclone to me seems the easier part of the project.

Thanks

Pulpo

[Wayne Davy]

Pulpo,

I actually got all this info from Carbatec before purchasing.

Both the 2hp and the 3hp use the same 12" Impeller. They are also the Backward Curved type that Bill recommends and are made of heavy gauge steel. They are designed for material hits so are very, very strong.

BTW: The arbor size is 3/4".

[bill pentz]

Size of a 2 hp impeller for a dust collector with minimum ducting or flex hose should be 12" in diameter with six or eight blades each 3" tall. See the pictures on my web pages for blade shapes and such. For a 2 hp impeller driving a cyclone and a little ducting it should be a 13" diameter impeller.

For a real 3 hp motor driving a cyclone and a full two-car garage sized shop should be a 14" impeller. This is what I recommend to those who ask. Here are the dimensions on my Jet 14" impeller that Jet sells with their 3 hp dust collector. The base is made of 3/16" thick steel and the vanes from 1/8" thick steel. Each vane or blade is held on with four steel rivets. The center arbor presses into the a hole on the center of the impeller and then is held in place with four bolts. There is one long set screw that goes in and hits the 3/16" keyway and another placed 135 degrees away that presses against the motor shaft.

bill
http://cnets.net/%7Eeclectic/woodworking/cyclone/Construction/arbor_installed.jpg http://cnets.net/%7Eeclectic/woodworking/cyclone/Construction/Arbor_InstalledDimensioned.jpg

[Wayne Davy]

Bill,

The problem is getting a Jet Impeller in Australia as a spare. I emailed their agent here (Gregories in Bris. - Woodman Group) and they did not carry them as spares, did not want to order one and thought that it would be quite expensive anyway. They suggested I just buy the 2hp Jet D/C as it was very good (in their opinion).

These guys make their own Cyclones but only BIG commercial units.

[barnsey]

Wayne,

The impellor I have on my Hafco machine looks very simlar to the one in Bill's picture with a dia of 12". As I said it is mounted on a 2hp motor 7.5A 2950 rpm motor. Is that in the ball park of what you are running?

At the moment apart from the lathe and a scroll saw my other equipment is moveable, table saw & router table. So at this stage I'm thinking that I can get away with about 6m of 6" main duct with maybe 5x 6" 45deg lateral tees with 6" flex to machines so I do not see a high inherent SP loss.

If I go to a paper cartridge type filter on the top of the single stage collector, I am wondering if a relatively simple drop box/separator will still give me enough suck?!?!

OK I may add a band saw and othe bits but I can only ever use one at a time!!

Just trying to sort through this maze - got a copy of Nagys - + a whole lot of letters - book from the library but I suspect he is still very much pre fine dust extraction so the advice may be limited.

Jamie.

[Wayne Davy]

Jamie,

That is exactly what I am running as mine is the Hafco (Hare & Forbes) 2hp which are identical to the Carbatec, etc. economy ones.

I totally agree with Bill regarding going for 3hp and 13/14" impellers it just that I found it impossible to get one in Oz at a reasonable price. The same goes for the Farr/Torit filters - $250++ when they are $50-$70US!!! Gives you the !

The other thing is that the 3hp draws over 9.5 amps so that knocked it out for my standard household power supply.

So, that is why I went the 2hp/12" combo. One day, when I build a proper shed down the back I WILL get it wired up with enough juice (3 phase maybe) to run 3hp/14". When that happens I will build a new Cyclone in the optimum height (3:1 Cone to Drum).

Mine works fine as I have a small shop and everything is pretty close together. It is probably not getting 100% of the fine invisible stuff but it would be pretty close (guessing 98%+).

[barnsey]

Wayne

Have you enlarged your inlet to the 6"?

If I did that and just went for a drop box/seperator would I get enough suck???!! You seem to have plenty so the extra drop on a simple separator is going to cost me what???

Sorry but I have a boat as well and you know what that stands for!!!

Bring Out Another Thousand!!!

Besides on a fine day it is a big decision to turn or to launch - f#$% lifes full of difficult decisions!!!:D

[Wayne Davy]

Jamie,

I forgot to mention - when you say simple drop box/separator will still give me enough suck you mean a Trash Can separator inbetween the D/C and the Machines? If you do, forget it as the 2hp will just empty it as the suction is to high for these things -check Bills FAQ at http://cnets.net/~eclectic/woodworking/cyclone/FAQs.html and search the page for 'separator'.

As for the Big cartridge filters that replace the Bags - for the money you pay for them you would have the Cyclone with a proper filter! And I don't think those $400 Paper ones from H&F or CT are really 1 micron even if they say they are. Jet's one is 2 micron real and it is lots more money ($686 at Gregories) so I cannot believe that the cheaper paper ones are 1 micron.

Build a Cyclone - you will love it and so will your lungs/family/etc.

[Wayne Davy]

Jamie,

I was typing the last response while you were posting but I seemed to answer one of your questions.

As for enlarging the Blower inlet - No, not yet. I don't want to stuff up the warranty as they H&F guys know I was using it for a Cyclone. I may do in a years time when its up.

[barnsey]

Wayne'

Thanks - noticed that - Think my first approach will be to install a modified inlet plenum which I should be able to do with a ply and 6" piece of pvc arrangement - if I have a problem then I can reinstall the 5" factory job. Will also look at upgrading the transfer duct from 5" to 6" between the fan housing and the separator.

Mind you I turned a bowl from an unidetified timber today - pine-ish but no nose to confirm it, and the shavings were like steel wool!!! Even a bowl gouge with the finest cut produced a mat like angel hair, that did not get past the guard on the collector and reinforces the need for a cyclone - damn it - I want to turn not spend more time rooting aroung with more equipment installations. Thanks again for you input,


Jamie.

[barnsey]

Wayne'

Thanks - noticed that - Think my first approach will be to install a modified inlet plenum which I should be able to do with a ply and 6" piece of pvc arrangement - if I have a problem then I can reinstall the 5" factory job. Will also look at upgrading the transfer duct from 5" to 6" between the fan housing and the separator.

Mind you I turned a bowl from an unidetified timber today - pine-ish but no nose to confirm it, and the shavings were like steel wool!!! Even a bowl gouge with the finest cut produced a mat like angel hair, that did not get past the guard on the collector and reinforces the need for a cyclone - damn it - I want to turn not spend more time rooting aroung with more equipment installations. Thanks again for you input,


Jamie.

[Wayne Davy]

Jamie,

Do what I (and everyone else I know) did with the safety grid on the Blower inlet - cut it out! Safe so long as you have pipe always attached and stops the D/C blocking up every five minutes.