$10 million for a violin for Australian orchestra

[zenwood]

In today's The Australian is an article (http://www.smh.com.au/news/music/at-10m-its-got-strings/2007/01/30/1169919311513.html)about a donation of a violin worth $10 million to the Australian Chamber Orchestra.

That prompted me to wonder: has anyone ever done a scientific study on whether people can hear any differences between a violin worth millions of dollars, and other violins worth less astronomical amounts?

Is it purely a question of prestige and mystique, or are there actual acoustic differences?

Does a violin have to achieve an age of centuries before it sounds really good?

http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2007/01/30/ACO_0079_RJ_email_narrowweb__300x301,0.jpg

[Wongo]

Just saw that on the news and I thought big deal. Why does it sound better? I don’t know.

[old_picker]

Well they didn't pay $10mil if someone couldnt hear the difference or they would all be playing $25 chinee fiddles now wouldn't they.. how did Richard Tognetti choose between it and the stradivarius if not by sound and feel??

To have a violin like that in australia [once owned by paganini] is a bit of a coup and i for one will be looking foward to seeing it being played by a well aknowledged master player Richard Tognetti.

By the way the graneri del jesu is a pretty roughly made violin compared to the perfect craftsmanship of the stradivari's. it is the sound that made it Richard Tognetti's choice. As Tognetti said they have not been able to create anything like the sound of this instrument even after several hundred years of study and using all the technology available today.

I am glad some rich person bought it and put it out there for people like me to be able to hear it

[zenwood]

But these seem to me to be individual subjective judgements. The question is, has anyone ever done something along the lines of a blind taste test for various violins? I suspect something like a placebo effect may be operative here.

And obviously you don't compare a $1million dollar master instrument with a $25 chinese toy. But I would like to see a comparison between instruments of value, say $10 million, $5 million, $1 million, $500k, $200k, $100k, $50k, $2k. Say a combination of mechanical acoustical tests as well as multiple blind perception tests with a mixture of expert, and not-so-expert listeners. Such a test could save orchestras (and individuals) millions of dollars to produce high-quality music. On the other hand, I suspect auction houses and investors would vigorously oppose such studies.

Where is the evidence that only instruments of several hundred years of age produce the best sounds. Has this been verified in blind tests?

[contrebasse]

You mean - has someone done a cost/benefit analysis???

For real informed discussion :o on this subject, try this link:

http://www.maestronet.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=4&threadid=315187&enterthread=y

mt

[zenwood]

Hehe: good one contrebasse. Is this what passes for informed discussion?

Do you think they will smear the vegemite on the violin? It seems to go on everything else down there.
Until I see a cost/benefit analysis, I continue to remain skeptical:)

[MICKYG]

Hi all, I would like to hazard a guess and suggest that if you give it to a fool to play it will still sound like a piece of S##t. If you give a lesser instrument to an acomplished player, they have the ability to make almost any thing sound good.

Regards Mike.:wink:

Ps. The argument for old versus newish, this wood as opposed to that wood, made in that country or made in this country has been around since Adam was near the apple tree. :roll:

[TassieKiwi]

I heard this and wondered how much a cube that timber would be?:oo:

I think that the 'quality' of the sound is automatically subjective, and about as easy to explain as the darkside vs 'lectron debate.

Fascinating that the bloke was a humble luthier.

[kiwigeo]

Whats the big deal.....the instrument was donated to the orchestra so its not costing the tax payer or the orchestra anything and its going to a good home where its going to be a source of joy for both those playing and listening to the instrument...it's a win win deal IMO.

Some aimless ramblings on the subject:

1. The Strads and other Cremone instruments were made by master luthiers who devoted their whole lives to making violins. These instruments are extremely well made and there aren't alot of them around.
2. The wood used in these instruments is generally of much better quality than the stuff available to luthiers today. Over time top quality tonewoods have largely been milled out. To buy tonewood of equivalent quality today costs big bucks (one reason I recently paid $US400 for a Brazillian Rosewood guitar back and side set).
3. Well made instruments made from top quality tonewoods do improve with age. This has been proven in endless scientific tests.
4. The Mona Lisa is worth alot more than the cost of materials and time taken to paint it but people dont balk when told the dollar value of the painting. A Strad is no different from LDV's famous painting...just think of a Strad as the Mona Lisa of the violin world.
5. How many people posting here moan about paying more than a dollar a litre for petrol but happily pay twice that for a bottle of water? People generally are horribly inconsistent when determining the monetary value of an item.

Cheers Martin

[Termite]

It's one of those questions where, if you have to ask, you won't understand the answer.

BTW, as for devoting ones life to perfecting the art, suggesting that the best instruments were made in the later stages of the makers life, the maker of this violin died at the age of 46.

[kiwigeo]

It's one of those questions where, if you have to ask, you won't understand the answer.

BTW, as for devoting ones life to perfecting the art, suggesting that the best instruments were made in the later stages of the makers life, the maker of this violin died at the age of 46.

The guy most likely would have been apprenticed at the age of 14 which means 32 years of experience behind him. I believe Stradivarius was apprenticed about the age of 11 and ended up making violins for something like 70 years.

Putting a dollar value on anything is a difficult one...everybody has their own ideas about what stuff is worth. A piece of nicely grained Tassie Blackwood sitting in a wood yard is gold to most people in here but to a non woodworker is just a lump of wood.

[MICKYG]

Hi all,
We had the pleasure of several luthiers producing their wares here. I observed Eugene Philip making about twenty guitars over a three year period. Eugene passed away and was a very informative fellow and friend. He was a prodigy of Greg Smallman who was the original designer of that syle of guitar bracing which Greg Smallman,Eugene Phillip and Ian Kneipp (who was Eugenes understudy) were making this style of guitar.

I note these guitars are selling for a Smallman 25.000 USD a Eugene Phillip about Seven to eight grand for a used guitar, and close to this for a Kniepp so you could say very experienced luthiers. One thing that was discussed with eugene was that you could make twenty of or more guitars and there would only one or maybe two which would be extra special. This applies to well known Guitars like Fender and Gibson as well. You could play Fifty of the same instrument and only one or maybe two would be very special. Greg Smallman moved to Melbourne and as far as I know still makes guitars and now his son makes these instruments as well. This is bit of interesting trivia I share with you. A great education in working wood gained by my self during these years.

Regards Mike:wink: :wink:

[old_picker]

Talking about the guys who made the cremona violins and what each achieved in their own lifetime, you mustn't forget to ask the question, Who where they apprenticed to? The answer is to craftsmen and women who had their their skills passed down from generation to generation over probably hundreds of years in the one workshop. They developed very specific skills that were jealously guarded aginst the opposition and because of this, their secrets are to this day still unknown. They probably used wood in their violins that was put aside for air dryng by their great grandfathers while they were buying and storing woods for their great grandsons. That sort of tradition simply does not exist in todays world of lutheiry or for that matter any of the handcrafts

[kiwigeo]

You mean - has someone done a cost/benefit analysis???



Cost - zero (donated)
Benefit - greater than zero. I'd give my left nut to get my hands on some of A. de Torres guitars and give 'em a strum.

[contrebasse]

Cream rises to the top.

Strad, del Gesu etc would have made duds. They weren't looked after, didn't last .

Its not surprising that after 250 years or so the ones that are still around sound great.

I think if my bass sounds great, it has good chance of being around in 200 years time, if kept above the rising waterline. If its less than great, it'll end up in someone's attic and may or may not be rediscovered later and repaired. or it may get broken and no-one cares to repair it.

I think that the theories of secret varnish recipe, special groundcoat, secret techniques, even special woods etc are on the whole, red herrings. Kiwigeo, I'd argue with your points 2 and 3. Unless you show me proof! Scientists can prove blue is red if they want to.

[numbat]

But these seem to me to be individual subjective judgements. The question is, has anyone ever done something along the lines of a blind taste test for various violins? I suspect something like a placebo effect may be operative here.

And obviously you don't compare a $1million dollar master instrument with a $25 chinese toy. But I would like to see a comparison between instruments of value, say $10 million, $5 million, $1 million, $500k, $200k, $100k, $50k, $2k. Say a combination of mechanical acoustical tests as well as multiple blind perception tests with a mixture of expert, and not-so-expert listeners. Such a test could save orchestras (and individuals) millions of dollars to produce high-quality music. On the other hand, I suspect auction houses and investors would vigorously oppose such studies.

Where is the evidence that only instruments of several hundred years of age produce the best sounds. Has this been verified in blind tests?

Hi Zenwood,

Funny you should mention this but I saw a science program on TV some years ago - cant recall the details where a musician scientist did accoustic tests against a good old violin - against cheap mass produced violins where he did mods to the said cheap violins - eg planed off some of the timber, stiffened things, change the finish on the instrument etc - trying to replicate the richness of sound produced by the old violin. He was using objective and subjective (his ear) measurements.

I cant remember what he found but I thought that he confirmed that the richness of the sound of the old good violins were very difficult to reproduce. I dont think he was using a $10M violin for comparison though.

Cheers

[numbat]

Here is a nice article http://www.alfstudios.com/news/articles/StradHeirsProspect.html Stradivari’s Heirs on Prospect Street

and another http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/13/4/8
Science and the Stradivarius


And I dont have a musical bone in my body

Cheers

[contrebasse]

Talking about the guys who made the cremona violins ... probably used wood in their violins that was put aside for air dryng by their great grandfathers while they were buying and storing woods for their great grandsons.

dunno about that. Strad and Del Gesu, as far as i am aware, pretty much came up with the design of what we now now as the violin. If they were just using traditions passed down for hundreds of years, you would think there would be at least a few 500 year old violins around, or fossilised ones, no? But there aren't. other instruments, yes, but not violins as we know them. And they haven't really changed much in design or material since then, although you would have thought that the tradition would have continued to be passed on from master to apprentice - which it HAS!!!

But ... we just can't make 200 year old violins from scratch, can we?

MT

[zenobia]

There is more art than mechanics in making fine instruments I think. It is the same in many things we humans do and thankfully in my opinion. It gives you a reason to keep doing it. I used to make surfboards and even with the controlled man made materials used it was always impossible to make two boards that felt the same and we are talking about a pretty simple structure compared to an instrument. If making a guitar (or a violin or surfboard) could be reduced to a simple formula I suspect many people would stop doing it.

I have just finished reading a book called Stradivari's Genius which tracks the life of 5 famous strads. But Giuseppe Guarneri 'del Gesu' features in the book. Rather than being beautifully made, del Gesu's are described as "...the only consistent alternatives to Strads for the virtuosic soloist; dark, powerful and responsive. Roughly worked, often slipshod, they were little valued in their maker’s lifetime, at least by most purchasers. Stradivari, however, must have known differently. Conscious of his younger rival, he determined to maintain his own standards.”

The best surfboards I ever shaped were when I used my instinct and got in this focused zone where you just did it and did not think about it too much. And try to make it look like you think it should look. Trust yourself. Very Zen. That to me is one of the most satisfying places to be mentally. I hope achieving this in guitar building is what will make the difference between a good guitar and a brilliant one.
Dom

[rhancock]

Well the annonymous benefactor impressed SWMBO, which is a rare thing! I'm a classical fan, and she won't call anything produced before 1970 music, so this is a major achievement. In the end we agreed that spending 10m on something for no reason other than to make someone else (us) happy is as great a thing as you are ever likely to do.

According to the Syd M Herald, Richard T.'s previous violin was a mere $1.2M item, so you'd think he'd know the difference.

BTW, are you sure that in 250 years time, the items revered from our own period will be the craftsman produced furniture, or the pieces produced by global companies with large marketing budgets? I'd like to think that history is the ultimate discriminator - to use a musical analogy, Bach was ignored in his own lifetime, but history has made a different call.

[Malibu]

Isn't it a bit like saying Michelangelo's "Pieta" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piet%C3%A0_%28Michelangelo%29) is just a piece of stone?

Matthew, maybe in 250 years, my archtop and your bass could be worth 10mil too! :D

[contrebasse]

Matthew, maybe in 250 years, my archtop and your bass could be worth 10mil too! :D

only if we finish them :C

[kiwigeo]

I think that the theories of secret varnish recipe, special groundcoat, secret techniques, even special woods etc are on the whole, red herrings. Kiwigeo, I'd argue with your points 2 and 3. Unless you show me proof! Scientists can prove blue is red if they want to.

Matthew, its fact that high quality tonewood is getting harder to get and more expensive. Export of Brazilian RW is banned and even woods like Honduras Mahogany is getting harder to procure. High quality tonewoods are a finite resource.....end of story.

I'm out on an oil rig at present so dont have access to my library but check out the GAL Big Red Book series or publications from the Catgut Society for numerous articles by both scientists and luthiers (often both) on sound properties of wood and influence of guitar design on sound of same. I think philosophers can easily prove blue is red but for a scientist to do so is a bit more difficult. A bit hard to fudge the output from an audio spectrum analyzer.

[contrebasse]

Matthew, its fact that high quality tonewood is getting harder to get and more expensive. Export of Brazilian RW is banned and even woods like Honduras Mahogany is getting harder to procure. High quality tonewoods are a finite resource.....end of story.

I don't argue with that at all. But I'm not so sure the reason that the 200 year-old instruments sound so good is because of the quality of the wood they used. Particularly for violin. Although expensive, even "top grade" wood fletch for a violin is not out of reach to a top maker, who, I think, is the only one likely to be able to get the full potential from that wood. If someone gave me the best wood in the world I'm sure it would be wasted on me at this stage in my career.

As far as spectrum analysers go, well I've read a lot of catgut stuff too and a lot of university scientific analysis... and I just reckon the jury is still out. Too many variables, really - even with carleen hutchins at the helm - to be able to isolate individual "ingredients" and do rigorous scientific tests. Nagyvary, who claims to be doing leading edge contemporary scientific research on violin construction, seemes to be able to get breakthrough scientific stories on front page in the media every few years - but his research does not, in my experience, hold up for very long.

I maintain the principle that cream rises to the top - and that OLD cream is perhaps better than new cream!!!!! :D

[kiwigeo]

I maintain the principle that cream rises to the top - and that OLD cream is perhaps better than new cream!!!!! :D

I'll agree with that.

[willie]

There is more art than mechanics in making fine instruments I think. It is the same in many things we humans do and thankfully in my opinion. It gives you a reason to keep doing it. I used to make surfboards and even with the controlled man made materials used it was always impossible to make two boards that felt the same and we are talking about a pretty simple structure compared to an instrument. If making a guitar (or a violin or surfboard) could be reduced to a simple formula I suspect many people would stop doing it.

I have just finished reading a book called Stradivari's Genius which tracks the life of 5 famous strads. But Giuseppe Guarneri 'del Gesu' features in the book. Rather than being beautifully made, del Gesu's are described as "...the only consistent alternatives to Strads for the virtuosic soloist; dark, powerful and responsive. Roughly worked, often slipshod, they were little valued in their maker’s lifetime, at least by most purchasers. Stradivari, however, must have known differently. Conscious of his younger rival, he determined to maintain his own standards.”

The best surfboards I ever shaped were when I used my instinct and got in this focused zone where you just did it and did not think about it too much. And try to make it look like you think it should look. Trust yourself. Very Zen. That to me is one of the most satisfying places to be mentally. I hope achieving this in guitar building is what will make the difference between a good guitar and a brilliant one.
Dom

Well said Zenobia. I know what you mean. The secret ingredient is of course, Laarve. (and I actually believe this) Very hard to maintain the focus and love when all around you is distracting and the piece one is working on has a mind of its own. Even worse, some instruments seem to be conspiring against you. These may well be the ones with the highest potential. Not so different with the animals.

[myguitar]

I too agree Zenobia,

I have been practicing meditation for some time and it really came in handy when I had to deal with crafting my very first instrument.

No woodworking skills, or hand / powertool skills this chick when in cold.

Instruction was great by the actual end result was up to me and the timber combined.

Over the past 10 months 3 other people have chosen the same combo of timber as my little guitar and all are going to sound different.

The sanding, and the sanding, and the sanding -Zen focus
Finite finishing of bracings - Zen Focus
Timber selection - Natures selection :U

It is what is is.

End results are just that. Like making a cake.

So I guess we are all hoping the our instruments actually last 200 years and not pop, crack or buckle.

Cheers Fiona :U

[Different]

Actually I dont think the difference matters and is anyway totally subjective!
It is like those audiophile freaks who pay $60,000 for a pair of speakers . They dont buy them on sound they buy them because of claimed frequency response and harmonic distortion figures. They cant hear the difference because most of it if it exists happens way beyond the hearing range of humans anyway. Point is they derive pleasure from having something of quality something that sets them apart from others. In their own way they "appreciate" the difference even if they cant perceive the difference!

I dont claim that there is not a significant difference between a $10,000 modern violin and a Stradivarius worth $10,000,000 but I cant appreciate the difference and I would not support spending that sort of money on it.
Why? Am I a Philistine? No I simply do not like/appreciate what it is used for or what is created with it .To my ear most solo violin work sounds like cats copulating in a sack!
On the other hand people who have a love of this art form would pay $20,000,000 for it and think it a bargain but wouldnt spend a cent on instruments that I think are worth saving for posterity!

No one person is right it is subjective and we value what is important to us not what is important! or valuable intrinsically.
Mind you I would rather have $10,000,000 spent on a violin than on the institute of sport or the war in Iraq!


Ross

[mongrel]

Got to make you wonder that if Mr. Stradivarius' name was something a little more simpson-esque like Ivana Pokensniff or something, whether people would be as willing to fork out the dough:

My violin is a 200 year old Stadivarius...

or...

My violin is a 200 year old Pokensniff...

Well, people will always find something to spend ridiculous amounts of money on regardless of what it is.

The stradivarius is such an iconic name to the general public, let alone to someone that has spent a huge proportion of their life trying to master the violin, that I could imagine that it would be the only name you would want. The whole effect could be a placebo or phallic, who would know, but if the end result is there, well, who cares? If I owned a stradivarius and someone offered me 10 mil for it, I would not say to them, "don't you think thats a bit too much to pay for it? How 'bout 10 thousand instead?" At least the violin does something, look at how much people pay for a piece of artwork?

[mkat]

In today's The Australian is an article (http://www.smh.com.au/news/music/at-10m-its-got-strings/2007/01/30/1169919311513.html)about a donation of a violin worth $10 million to the Australian Chamber Orchestra.

That prompted me to wonder: has anyone ever done a scientific study on whether people can hear any differences between a violin worth millions of dollars, and other violins worth less astronomical amounts?

LOL. No violin is worth anywhere near that, maybe that's why they donated it...who would be silly enough to consider buying at that price...but then again, there's always someone... I can think of so many ways to help people that really need it, than spend or donate a $10mil violin to an orchestra.

[Waldo]

Saw a doco on SBS ages ago on the decernable acoustic qualities of a Stradivarius over other quality violins and simply there was none. In some cases those blindfolded chose the other violins over the Stradivarius, thinking it was a Stradivarius. So it's all based on opinion with no quantifiable back up based on scientific findings.

It was very interesting, I don't play a violin, the same programme also looked at and compared world renown makers and their violins were of equal acoustic quality and performance in the hands of top violinists.

:shrug:

As all things it is all subjective on preference and sometimes perceived quality over another.

[Sebastiaan56]

Waldo, I saw the same program Im sure. Karl Hass did a program comparing various violins playing the Saint Saens about 15 years ago. There was a marked difference between each instrument and he threw in a couple of others. In the end they all sounded different and all sounded great. Personally I think the player has more to do with the tone,

[Waldo]

Waldo, I saw the same program Im sure. Karl Hass did a program comparing various violins playing the Saint Saens about 15 years ago. There was a marked difference between each instrument and he threw in a couple of others. In the end they all sounded different and all sounded great. Personally I think the player has more to do with the tone,

That's the thing about any such test, replicating exactly each time, you're probably right. :2tsup:

[mcarthur]

Oi reckon it's the same as someone outside of woodwork saying "why would someone pay $10K for an Italian/German tablesaw - the H&F $700 still cuts wood in the same way and the same accuracy" (if you're careful!). There is a difference, but you probably need to be in the know, to know. Blind tests are going to be useless if the people you choose have no musical knowledge, no ear for music, and have never played themselves at the highest calibre. In an unrelated but me-trying-to-have-an-analogue way, does the person looking at your finished woodwork know you used handtools from Bunnings or a $10K docking saw? No, but the artisan does. Does the average punter listening to the music hear the difference? No, but the top musician does. Does the professional at the top of their game understand the difference? Too right. Does it matter that they're willing to pay squillions on it? No, unless it's taxpayers money AND it can't be justified (with all that entails :p ).

:punching::boxing5:

Rob

[Sebastiaan56]

No, unless it's taxpayers money AND it can't be justified (with all that entails :p ).

Rob

I believe it was a gift,

[Buncha]

Does the average punter listening to the music hear the difference? No, but the top musician does. Does the professional at the top of their game understand the difference? Too right.


Spot on mcarthur :2tsup:

You have hit the nail on the head there!

[mcarthur]

You have hit the nail on the head there!

Using a Big Green hammer - even I can tell that's shoddy :doh::karate:

[slackboy72]

When you think about it a violin has to do so much more work than a guitar.
We take our guitars and mike them up or plug them in amps and then mike the amps up and then we put them through a mixer and amplify them again through PAs.
A 1st violin or a soloist has to reach the back of an auditorium on its own legs without mixers or PAs and I guess its the more educated punters in the back rows who would be getting the benefit of a well made violin over it's less well bred brethren. I can imagine the difference to the toffs in the front row would be purely status and image but the scope for the good to shine over the mediocre would surely be greater for a working concert violinist than someone doing a blind test in a room.

[ian]

Oi reckon it's the same as someone outside of woodwork saying "why would someone pay $10K for an Italian/German tablesaw - the H&F $700 still cuts wood in the same way and the same accuracy" (if you're careful!). There is a difference, but you probably need to be in the know, to know. Blind tests are going to be useless if the people you choose have no musical knowledge, no ear for music, and have never played themselves at the highest calibre. In an unrelated but me-trying-to-have-an-analogue way, does the person looking at your finished woodwork know you used handtools from Bunnings or a $10K docking saw? No, but the artisan does. Does the average punter listening to the music hear the difference? No, but the top musician does. Does the professional at the top of their game understand the difference? Too right. Does it matter that they're willing to pay squillions on it? No, unless it's taxpayers money AND it can't be justified (with all that entails :p ).

RobRob

One of the ABC current affairs efforts (I think it was Ockhams Razor) has a podcast about this or a similar violin gifted to another Aussie orchester.

the "expert" conclusion was that there is NO difference in performance between a Stradi or Tongelli and a modern top notch violin, but the Stradi / Tongelli was considered so much nicer to play that the musio put more effort into the playing.

Derek, provided a woodworking analogy not so long ago, comparing his Veritas BU smoother and BU Marcou "Gentleman's" smoother.
He has not as yet been able to discern a difference in performance between the two planes (which may be because he hasn't found a bit of wood that defeats the Veritas) but Derek reports that the Marcou is so much nicer to pick up and "take a shaving or two before going off to bed". (Derek, any misquoting here is not deliberate)



ian

[Willbill]

Zenwood. The violin in question would be a rare instrument made by a renowned and long dead luthier it’s not the instrument itself that is worth 10 million but the fact that it’s rare. And yes there are acoustic differences age of timbers would be a factor but also the care in making the instrument also the timber itself the denser the timber the better tones it can produce such as timbers that grow slowly in colder climates. Also the varnishes they are coated with are important. The wrong varnish can inhibit the vibration of the timber destroying the tone. There are many more things that affect the quality of the instrument. There has never been a perfect instrument but some are more perfect than others. Hope this helps

[X-Man]

I have heard this violin played about 8 times from a distance of 10m and it sounds good to me!

There are at least 5 instruments currently being used by ACO players made in the 1700's, and one other that dates late 1700's or early 1800's.
Every time the players walk out onstage in front of me, I think how lucky I am to be able to see and hear those 250 odd yo instruments in use and muse over the history they collectively contain.

Its always a pleasure X

[Sebastiaan56]

The second hour of this program http://www.abc.net.au/rn/musicshow/stories/2008/2405757.htm is an extensive interview with Richard Tognetti, the person who plays the instrument, very interesting,

[DarwinStrings]

Whats the big deal.....the instrument was donated to the orchestra so its not costing the tax payer or the orchestra anything and its going to a good home where its going to be a source of joy for both those playing and listening to the instrument...it's a win win deal IMO.

Some aimless ramblings on the subject:

1. The Strads and other Cremone instruments were made by master luthiers who devoted their whole lives to making violins. These instruments are extremely well made and there aren't alot of them around.
2. The wood used in these instruments is generally of much better quality than the stuff available to luthiers today. Over time top quality tonewoods have largely been milled out. To buy tonewood of equivalent quality today costs big bucks (one reason I recently paid for a Brazillian Rosewood guitar back and side set).
3. Well made instruments made from top quality tonewoods do improve with age. This has been proven in endless scientific tests.
4. The Mona Lisa is worth alot more than the cost of materials and time taken to paint it but people dont balk when told the dollar value of the painting. A Strad is no different from LDV's famous painting...just think of a Strad as the Mona Lisa of the violin world.
5. How many people posting here moan about paying more than a dollar a litre for petrol but happily pay twice that for a bottle of water? People generally are horribly inconsistent when determining the monetary value of an item.

Cheers Martin

Hi Martin
Just a bit of argument on point 3. I went to a Greg Smallman lecture some years ago and he pointed out that his guitars "wear out" and need to be replaced. Now you could argue differently but he seems to be known as the best builder in Australia or at least one of the best classical guitar makers in the world, he takes a totally different approach and his strut system is no Torres that is for sure. John Williams buys Smallman Guitars, that has to be a bit of a feather in the Smallman cap. One other point is that who is alive today that could listen to those violin 200 years ago and compare, maybe they were even better then, who knows, I don't.
Jim

[Sebastiaan56]

Toejam,

Im no instrument repairer but I believe the tonebar (bassbar?) in Violin family instruments need to be replaced as they "wear out" in time. My understanding is that the highly regarded Italian instruments used nowadays have had this procedure a number of times. See http://www.zaretandsonsviolins.com/goodsounding.html 8th paragraph Maybe Mathew can add a comment here.

Maybe a Smallman could be rebraced?

[kevjed]

I just think that no matter what was paid for an instrument, it is the sound that is produced by that instrument, in the hands of a skilled musician, that makes the thing of any value. This particular violin, like any instrument of quality, will have its particular traits that vary from day to day. The individual musician will get to know and feel the response of the instrument and together with the skilled artist on any particular day may have a magical moment or two when the chiils run down your back and the hairs on your neck stand on end. Those magical moments are lost on some people but to those in the know it can simply take your breath away. I for one look forward to being in the concert hall, or rehearsal room, when those magic moments happen.

I've been on the concert platform with many musicians far more talented than myself from time to time. Every now and then someone will play something and make a sound that takes your breath away. When it all comes together it is a wonderous thing. 10K or 10Mil if it is magic....it is magic.
Kevin

[old_picker]

saw a prram on tv a couple weeks ago
4 1st violin players from top orchestras round the world were given 4 violins by top makers including a stradivari to play in a blind test

none chose the strad

[SixString]

Myth no 1: Strad used pine soaked in the Baltic sea for 200 years and lovingly hand-dried by virgins in the special forest air of the mountains of Italy. (Choose your own variation on that theme.)

Strad used all kinds of wood, from the cheap and nasty to the beautifully figured. He even used pieces with knots in them!

Myth no 2: Strad and all the Cremonese had secret formulas which they jealously guarded.

The "secrets" were well known in Strad's day and are well known now. You can look them up in books. You can make Strad's varnish yourself if you have the ingredients.

People who have studied this conclude that the wood is the least important factor. Next most important is the varnish. It has a definite effect on the sound of the violin. Most important factor is the quality of craftsmanship. Perfectly fitting pieces and Strad did it all with a sharp knife! No sandpaper in those days.

Myth no 3: Strad had magic hands and could do special things with wood that other people can't.

Strad was indeed an expert craftsman. But luthiers today can and do make violins every bit as good as Strads, del Gesus, etc. The one thing they don't have and can't have is that little label with "Stradivarius Cremonensis Faciebat" inside.

There’s plenty of Strad myth-busting in books, in publications, e.g. American Lutherie, and on the net. Check them out.

The truth is more prosaic than the myth. Simply, we have a superior artisan who made excellent violins, good enough to make quality from varied materials. So good that people want to play them to this day.

Incidentally, every Strad in use has had major modifications over the years. Usually the fingerboard has been replaced, often the entire neck, tops have been removed and patched umpteen times, etc. You could argue that they're not truly Strads any more. And did these extensive modifications dilute some of that Strad magic? No, because the alterations and repairs were carried by out expert craftsmen as well.

[bille]

I believe it was a gift,

Sounds more like a fiddle to me (Tax that is:roll:)

[bille]

Old instruments V New, i.e. Old wood V New wood - I recently was fortunate to go to Ireland, my wife’s cousin had a brand 'spankin' new Martin D-28 which I was able to play for a bit and it played 'Different' to my D-28 which is in its 31st year, I'm not such a good player and a D-28 is probably wasted on me but the cousins new one just didn't quite feel/play/sound the same and there are lots of reasons that could be.

Wood age, setup, strings, emotion/mood when playing, construction glue/braces very hard to quantify what suits a musician, I guess a better player could make them both sound sweet.

I also was lucky enough to play a couple of (George) Lowden guitars and despite the high price tags and the talent of musician that owned them I didn't like playing them at all, bit nervous after hearing how much they cost in English Pounds and doing a quick conversion to $AU:C.

So I appreciate the results of the blind tests could be inconclusive but agree if the player feels it is a great instrument they may play better.

[jerryc]

Whats the big deal

5. How many people posting here moan about paying more than a dollar a litre for petrol but happily pay twice that for a bottle of water? People generally are horribly inconsistent when determining the monetary value of an item.

Cheers Martin

:exactly:


Jerry