Cutting compound

[JackG]

Hi all,
Not sure if I should post this on the finishing forum or here, but being for a Guitar I'll try here first.

I am looking for a cutting compound (polish) to finish my guitar after sanding it with 1200 grit, I am unable to find anything suitable. What do you guys use and where do you get it ? Automotive type ? EEE-Ultrashine ? Other ?

Thanks

[MoonShine]

G'day Jack, I went down to an Auto Repair place and bought a few sheets of 2000 grade wet & dry mate.
I opted to go for the Carnauba paste from the local hardware, but have heard the Auto Accessory Shops sell a Meguires polish for that ultra gloss. That I will be trying next because the paste gear tends to smudge easily when handled.

[Jackspira]

Hi Jack,
I use Auto Glym O2B for hand rubbing. Seems pretty good, although its better from 2000 grit sanding. Most auto paint shops should have it
Jack

[old_picker]

You prolly should go 2000 grit like moonshine says
I start at 1200 > 1500 >2000 sometimes even 2500
I use the Meguires cut cream - medium i think then go the Meguires polish
don use anything thats got silicone

2500 is prolly a bit anal an i think thats finer than the cut cream. be sure to get all the scratches out from the coarse grades before you buff it out with the polish.. Theres nothing worse than looking at those tiny scratches through ur bran new mirror shine.
:((:((

[kiwigeo]

Meguires No 7 polish is what Ive used in the past.

A product worth considering is Micromesh abrasive...it goes down to an outrageously fine grade but the stuff is good.

Cheers Martin

[Cliff Rogers]

...A product worth considering is Micromesh abrasive.......
Where do you get it? :)

[JackG]

Excellent answers, thank you all.

I'll try to get some of the meguiars products, it seems "Diamond Cut Compound" or "Medium Cut Cleaner" is what you refered to.

Is this what you meant Kiwigeo ?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230088125055&ih=013&category=31742&ssPageName=STORE:PROMOBOX:NEWLIST

Really ww forums is an invaluable source of info !

[MoonShine]

Excellent answers, thank you all.

I'll try to get some of the meguiars products

Ah! thats how its spelt....Close enough eh:)

[kiwigeo]

Some of the silicone free 3M car products are also suitable for guitar finishing.

[contrebasse]

brasso is good for cutting back french polish etc

[kiwigeo]

Jack,

Looks like the stuff but you'd probably want to go a bit finer than the stuff available on ebay. I get mine from Dave Freeman in Canada and it goes to about 13,000 grade.

http://www.timelessinstruments.com/supplies.html

Cheers Martin


Excellent answers, thank you all.

I'll try to get some of the meguiars products, it seems "Diamond Cut Compound" or "Medium Cut Cleaner" is what you refered to.

Is this what you meant Kiwigeo ?

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230088125055&ih=013&category=31742&ssPageName=STORE:PROMOBOX:NEWLIST

Really ww forums is an invaluable source of info !

[Ravi]

Jack,

Try Rotton Stone Powder and Pumice Stone Powder.

Cheers

Ravi

[MoonShine]

brasso is good for cutting back french polish etc

Yup!, good old Brasso, great for polishing up perspex windscreens on boats, and deadly on undesirables in the pubic region. (yeah, ex Navy here:2tsup:)

[Malibu]

I got myself a bottle of "Meguiars No7" recently and having the same basic question, I only got it because of Benedetto's recommendation.
I think for french polish, it feels a bit too gritty but I think for other finishes, it might be pretty good. I picked it up in the local auto supplies.

[kiwigeo]

Malibu,

The "Meguiars No 7" works for America's finest archtopper and Dave Freeman and Paddy Burgin and me......Australasia's and Canada's best luthiers and one of Australasia's worst luthiers.
Make your own choice mate! :U

[ubeaut]

Or you could try EEE-Ultra Shine (http://www.ubeaut.com.au/eee.htm) - Made by me.

Cheers - Neil :U

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

:clap3: I've been waiting for it.

Thought you were going to disappoint me, Neil!

[JackG]

I could not find Meguiars No 7 in their range but I have found a medium cutting compound (fairly coarse) and then their polish without wax.

The products seem very good but I am clearly not capable of using them properly, so far I have spent more time trying to finish my guitar than it took to build it perhaps as many as twice as many hours trying to finish it than build it.

I am incapable to fill the grain properly, stain properly, spray properly, sand without going too deep, fine sand without scratching.

I am very lucky I use NC laquer, I have wipped all the laquer, resanded, restained the neck 3 times !

I have probably put 15+ coats of sanding sealer and laquer on the back and sides, and I STILL sand it too deep and touch the wood !!

As much as I enjoyed building this guitar it has now turned into a real nightmare and there has been a few times where it was pretty close to fly accross the shed....

Now I know why Maton have their flat finish !!!

PS: Like any dedicated woodworker I have some EEE-Ultrashine but it is not just a cutting compound, it seems to also have some wax in it and is not quite suitable for guitars.

[Malibu]

......Australasia's and Canada's best luthiers and one of Australasia's worst luthiers.

So, who holds the distinction of being one of Australasia's worst luthiers? :)

[old_picker]

I am incapable to fill the grain properly, stain properly, spray properly, sand without going too deep, fine sand without scratching.I have probably put 15+ coats of sanding sealer and laquer on the back and sides, and I STILL sand it too deep and touch the wood !!

As much as I enjoyed building this guitar it has now turned into a real nightmare and there has been a few times where it was pretty close to fly accross the shed

There's an awful lot in finishing thats for sure. I don't bother any mor flat sanding beyond final surface prep and seal, until I got at least 15 coats of clear. With sanding sealer it don't matter if you sand through. just kep going with sealer and random orbital using 400grit till the surface is perfect flat. Don't bother about sand throughs at this stage. Once its perfect I shoot the shaders on and then 15 of clear. If you like you can shoot a couple clear before the shaders so the shaders dont touch the wood. Set it aside for a month then hit it with 1200 went n dry untils its flat, then 1500 2000, then cutting compound and finally polish.

I have a crook shoulder and hand sand the bare minimum just the 1200, 1500,2000
the cutting compound and polsih is done with a bench mounted power drill and lambswool buffers.

All the time you are cursing about not gettin anywhere you are learning about finishing.
I felt like tossing a body myself plrenty

We all goes through it you aint robinson crusoe mate. Once you seen that mirror shine on ur new body it makes it all worth it in the end....
Sounds like you sanding way too much.

[JackG]

I think you got it right old_picker I also feel that I sand too much :)

Next time I will be better prepared, this has really been a waste of time and materials for a very frustrating experience.... and it is not over but you are absolutely right I am learning a lot doing this. I am not new to woodworking but I never had the need to produce that quality of finish.

For now I may ask a few (many) questions while it is still hot in my memory. Please just answer briefly at your convenience.

Regaring so many coats, that is fine for back and sides but how many on top without affecting the sound ? I understand that it gets sanded down to a certain point but it would be pretty hard if not impossible to remove a lot of material uniformly all over the top.

15 coats sanding sealer and top coat gives me a rough idea, to clarify it in my mind roughly how much sanding sealer/laquer you use per guitar ? (including overspray etc..) 1 litre selaer 0.5 litre top coat ?

About the sanding process you mentioned a ROS, that would be fine for the top and back but I assume you still use a sanding or rubber block and hand sand the sides ? Are you using just a classic 150mm diam ROS or a smaller unit ?

I have big problems with scratches I make sanding with the finer grits, if I use a block I scratch it easily due to buildup and a hard backing surface, using the hands I am affraid to create waves, what do you use ?

I assume that from 600 grit upwards you wet sand ?

Just to get an idea of the material removed, final hand sanding the back only on 1200, 1500, 2000 take what time ? 20min, 10min, 10 min ?

Regarding the laquer for my general woodwork I usualy use some NC laquer from Pylon chemicals, I love that product and it is very well priced too however I have been warned not to use it on guitars as it dries too hard and brittle and will eventually crack. I have been reccomended Durobond's guitar laquer, now imho that is one difficult product to use, (not saying it is bad, just difficult for me to use) I cant get the same results just spraying, it cloggs the sand paper a lot more and even after 2 weeks never seems to be cure real hard. Have you used the durobond laquer ? What other laquer do you recomend ? Mirotone ?

Every time I spray I give an intitial coat on the edges then 2 min later I cover the whole area including edges, I just want to make sure I dont accidentally go trough the edges with the sand paper, any draw backs to do that ?

For the cutting compound/buffing part you mentioned a bench mounted powerdrill Please forgive my complete ignorance in this domain and the stupid questions I am about to ask...

- Do you also use a machine operated way to apply the compound or just use the lambswool on the drill machine to wipe/buff it off ?

- Obviously you must use a different lambswool for each different grade of polish/cutting compound.

- When you talk about a lambswool you are talking about a sort of pad that you put over a rubber disk on the drill machine and use it on its side ? or You are talking about a thicker disk that you use on its edge (peripheral contact)

- I tried to use a lamswool (pad on rubber disk) on an angle grinder but it was way too fast was producing too much heat, what sort of rpm you use, 300 ? 1500?

For stopping (or filling the grain) what do you use, timbermate ? or just many coats of sanding sealer ? other products ?

What you refer as a shader is just stain/dye ? If I understand right you apply it after the sanding sealer but before the top coat ?


Well I think that is it for now :) If you (or other members) could at your convenience answer these question it would be fantastic, and perhaps I can compile the answers in sort of FAQ in a new thread "how to finish a guitar" for easier reference for other members.

Thanks
Jack

[kiwigeo]

For stopping (or filling the grain) what do you use, timbermate ? or just many coats of sanding sealer ? other products ?




Im using Z-poxy finishing resin as a grain filler prior to french polishing my instruments. Available from Barnes on line for about $40 and a bottle lasts you ages. I thin the stuff 50/50 with tech grade meths and then sand back to wood after applying a few coats with a paper towel. The stuff is good under FP or laquer. You can also put the stuff on neat and it functions as a finish.

Cheers Martin

[JupiterCreek]

I read a comment a few years ago from Bob Taylor of Taylor Guitars about polishing guitars. He said that at some stage someone discovered that if you spray a guitar, then sand it, then spray it some more, then sand it some more, then spray it some more, then sand it some more, then spray it some more, then sand it, then spray it some more, then cut and polish it, then cut and polish it some more, then cut and polish it even more, eventually you get a really shiny guitar. He said "we need that person and shoot him!" Of course Taylor Guitars have their ultra modern UV cure system that does it all so they don't have that problem any more.

The instruments I build are generally not shiny. I usually use semi-gloss nitro, sometimes gloss acrylic (depening on the weather and if I've got weeks for it to harden completely). If I really want a shiny guitar for myself like my Strat, Tele and LP copies then I buy a nicely finished Chinese or Indonesian guitar and do some upgrading of parts and a full setup. If a customer insists on a shiny finish I explain to them that I'll be getting my local crash repairer to paint and finish it.

[kiwigeo]

Nicely put Rob.

Unfortunately for alot of people guitars are just as much fashion accessories as functional musical instruments. We even get the people who buy a brand new guitar and then get a luthier to "age" it for them.