Guideline on getting good Japanese tools!

[soatoz]

I thought this would be a good read for people who are interested in getting quality Japanese tools. One of my friends, a member of this forum as well, told me that he had this certain image that "any" Japanese tools should be good. Many of you might already know this is not so, but then again there might still be many who kind of thinks that way as well. That is so flattering, but unfortunately there are lots of tools that aren't made in traditional way, but just looks like Japanese tools. Some not even made in Japan.

So, I decided to write a bit of guidance on getting quality Japanese tools. This was in my eBay items' description, but I edited it and added more.
____________________________________

Since Japanese tools (only the high quality ones) are 100% handmade, it is very important to see WHO made it, and/or HOW it was made. That is why I am spending so much time and effort explaining about the blacksmith and how it is made to some extent (on eBay.) The final quality of the tool differs greatly, usually more than you might imagine if you are not so familiar with Japanese tools, between each blacksmith, depending on first their skill, second their character. So, you need to know not just the type of the raw material (White steel, Blue steel, Swedish steel, etc.), but again WHO made it and/or HOW it was made (forged, hardened and tempered.)

Smaller molecular size, more carbon content, and higher tenacity, consists the high quality cutting edge, and all these rely SOLELY on the blacksmiths knowledge and skill, but NOT on the material. This is very improtant for you to know. Bad blacksmithing can enlarge the molecular size causing the steel to be brittle, losing (evaporating) the carbon content by heating it too much making the steel softer, and tempering too much or too less making the steel too soft or too hard (brittle.)

You won't believe how much difference there is between good tools (usually expensive) and not so good tools (usually cheap, sometimes even expensive) even if they used same steel, say white steel #2. Cheap one feels soft as lead or brittle as bread whereas expensive ones feels hard as glass without being brittle. So you can't be sure what kind of quality it is just by checking the type of steel that's used. You need to know who made it, and/or how it was made. Like wine? There's a Grange and there's a Rawsons Retreat Shiraz, made from same varietal.

Since Aogami (Blue steel) is an alloy which has additives that widens the hardening temperature range, it is easier to harden compared to Shirogami (White steel) which has no additives, so many makers uses it. And since it is about 15% more expensive as raw material than Shirogami, because it has more expensive substances such as chrom, tungsten, molybdenum, any tools that are made by Aogami are considered to be high quality tools. And sometimes Shirogami is considered to be inferior to Aogami, but this is not true at all. The most revered chisel blacksmith Hidari Ichihiro uses only White steel #1. There are so many other masters who only use White steel. And at the same time there are lots of tools that proudly sings that it is made of Blue steel, but the quality is not so good. So, now I think you are starting to see that the type of steel can only be part of information of a certain tool.

The final quality of the tools that uses Aogami varies so much between each product. I need to explain the very detail referring to the metallurgical chemistry in order to explain how different they can be, and I will try to when I have time, but basically anyone will see the difference when you sharpen them or use them. I sincerely hope that you don't give up on Japanese tools by trying out cheaper tools and find it not so impressive. There are tons of Japanese chisels and planes that cut FAR less than a decent Stanley tool. Those tools were either made by less skilled blacksmiths or made by machine without any forging process.

For new tools that are sold through large popular shops, you can ask them who or how they are made. But when you are buying old tools, tools with mei (brand) that you've never heard of, or tools that doesn't have any mark on, you need to have a trained eye to see what the quality is like if you are not allowed to sharpen them, which is usually the case. There are so many things that you can tell just from the appearance (*1) if you know what to look for. It's like a well trained sommeliere can tell the varietal, vintage and the maker, just by tasting it. But that should be very difficult for most of us.

continued next post...

[soatoz]

===
(*1 )
Judging the quality of a tool from its appearance.
From the most basic to advanced

Lamination line: If it's straight, it's not hand made. And there are lots of other things you can tell just from the profile of the lamination line.

The overall appearance: If a tool is very good looking, it can never be bad. But this doesn't mean that bad looking tool is always of poor quality, so this method can't be applied to the bad looking tools.

The "mei" (brand): Brand doesn't tell WHO made it so you have to know. Like for Oz wines, the varietal is on the label so everyone can tell, but for European wines, say "Chablis", you have to know that they are made from Chardonnay, "Ch. Mouton Rothschild" from Cabernet Sauvignon, Cabernet Franc, Petit Verdot,,, and so on. Mei is kind of like that. For example "Ichihiro" brand chisels are made by Yamazaki brothers, "Kiyotada" chisels by Mr. Shimamura, very famous "Ken-mei" brand plane by Mr. and Mrs. Usui, etc. But single mei can be made by different blacksmiths depending on "when" it was made, so this knowledge of linking the mei with the blacksmith is quite deep.

If one can tell the blacksmith when the name isn't mentioned, there is a tremendous advantage. For example now a very famous Tokyo plane brand "Etsuei" was made by ma---ny hidden masters who became well known after they passed away. Kanai, Sano, Tsutsumi,,, Anyone who can tell their style will look for the planes made by them under the lesser known mei, and buy it cheaper. Etsuei was one of those hidden treasure a little while ago. While Mr. Tsutsumi's well known brand Otoko-Zakari would cost about $600, Etsuei plane that was made by him would only cost $200 becaues that was what Etsuei charged for their planes. But not many can tell if this certain Etsuei plane was made by Mr. Tsutusmi, or if its a modern Etsuei made by lesser blacksmith.

The set of 4 trowel chisels, and the Koreyuki plane that I sold are such kind of tools. The chisel has no brand, the plane made by a hidden master. That's why they are half or even less the price of famous brand tools with similar quality. I'm happy to find out that both of them went to the forum members! (Al and willie, you guys are 2 lucky owners.)

Overall style: Some people can guess or sometimes even be sure, who the blacksmith is even if it doesn't have ANY "mei" on it, just from the style. What they are checking are the file marks, shape of the lamination line, shape of the back hollow, shape of the head/neck, brand of the handle/block, colour and ambience of the oxide film, etc.
________________


The Japanese sense of beauty is very unique as most of you are aware of. A dirty old looking thing that appears to be a junk to the uninitiated eyes can be a Japanese national treasure, or it could be just a junk... It takes time and experience to aquire this sense of beauty, so it is difficult, even for native Japanese to discern good tools from mediocre or bad tools. So, a good way of aquiring decent Japanese tools, especially for non Japanese, is to either pay certain amount (which could be quite expensive) and get it from large shops who sells only modern famous tools, or buy from someone you can trust. I think it is important to get a good tool in the beginning even if you have to spend a lot, because then you have this bench mark to compare with. If someone is selling the same level of quality for lower price, then you can see that this is someone who you should stick to:)

I hope this article will help you to get good Japanese tools.

[BobL]

Soatoz,

if you wish to sell effectively and widely in Australia can I respectfully suggest your written english descriptions are edited by a suitable english speaker/writer. Directly translating japanese into english results in many questionable words/expressions, expressions that are hard to understand, and/or expressions that some (possibly intolerant) Australians may laugh at. Our intolerance of such translations come mainly from the many poorly translated tool and appliance manuals we see in this country. A suitable english speaker would be someone that also knows something about the tools you are selling.

Of course if you wish to only sell to Japanese tool enthusiasts then you are entirely entitled to ignore my suggestion.

[soatoz]

Soatoz,

if you wish to sell effectively and widely in Australia can I respectfully suggest your written english descriptions are edited by a suitable english speaker/writer. Directly translating japanese into english results in many questionable words/expressions, expressions that are hard to understand, and/or expressions that some (possibly intolerant) Australians may laugh at. Our intolerance of such translations come mainly from the many poorly translated tool and appliance manuals we see in this country. A suitable english speaker would be someone that also knows something about the tools you are selling.

Of course if you wish to only sell to Japanese tool enthusiasts then you are entirely entitled to ignore my suggestion.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your suggestion! No, no, I won't ignore your precious suggestion:wink: It really depends on how laughable or intolerant it could be to native English speakers... Finding a "suitable" speaker might not be so easy, and if I have to pay to hire someone that's another problem, for I am making almost no money out of this:( The items mainly being steel(heavy = expensive) I am barely regaining the shipping fee.

Is it possible for you to give me an idea, citing couple of "worst!:oo: " examples, which expressions or words you felt difficult to understand, or even possibly intolerant? That would re~~~~ally help me. I am quite open to these suggestions, so please don't be hesitant to pointing out what you've felt. I will NEVER get mad or anything. I'll consider the degree of the problem, and if I find it serious, I would first consult with my friends if they can help out.

If it's easier for you to send me a private message, that would also be fine!

Thanks again for your concern:2tsup:

[Sturdee]

Hope this article will help you getting good Japanese tools.

Very interesting and informative post but why is this in Buy,Sell 'N' Swap and not under the new Japanese tools forum?

It was only per chance that I saw it for I don't normally look in Buy, Sell 'N' Swap but would have seen it immediately in the tools forums.


Peter.

[ozwinner]

Moved to the Japanese Tool section.

I dont see a problem with the way the articles are written or the use of grammar or the English language or anyfing.

Keep doing your thing soatoz. :2tsup:

Al :)

[Groggy]

Very interesting and informative post but why is this in Buy,Sell 'N' Swap and not under the new Japanese tools forum?Because it is new - the Japanese Tools forum didn't exist two days ago.

soatoz was advised it would be created and his posts moved there, which is now happening.

[Clinton1]

Good article Soatoz.

[Sturdee]

Because it is new - the Japanese Tools forum didn't exist two days ago.


Thanks, yesterday I saw that the Japanese tool forum had opened and today I didn't look closely at the dates of the original posts. Mea Culpa.:D

BTW interesting to note that this forum and the recent Forestry forum wasn't queried like the other new forum.:D


Peter.

[Stuart]

Excellent stuff there Soatoz - an excellent addition to the forums.

Don't be too distracted by language - if my Japanese was as good as your English, I'd be pretty impressed with myself. Gives a feeling of authenticity, and it isn't like it is just 3 words - "Cheap - you buy", it is a comprehensive thesis on Japanese tools, construction etc. It might net you some more sales, and if it does, more power to you. But I don't think it was just for sales - you don't put that much work into writing an article like that just for a few sales!

Actually, can I suggest you contact Steve Burrows at Skills Publishing - Australian Woodworker is one of their magazines - they might be very interesting in an informed article or two on Japanese hand tools.

[jaspr]

Thanks Soatoz

I found your post very informative ... and your english is fine ... please keep posting. I, for one, would like to learn more about Japanese tools. The one thing that has stopped me buying is my lack of knowledge in this area.

jas

[soatoz]

Excellent stuff there Soatoz - an excellent addition to the forums.

Don't be too distracted by language - if my Japanese was as good as your English, I'd be pretty impressed with myself. Gives a feeling of authenticity, and it isn't like it is just 3 words - "Cheap - you buy", it is a comprehensive thesis on Japanese tools, construction etc. It might net you some more sales, and if it does, more power to you. But I don't think it was just for sales - you don't put that much work into writing an article like that just for a few sales!

Actually, can I suggest you contact Steve Burrows at Skills Publishing - Australian Woodworker is one of their magazines - they might be very interesting in an informed article or two on Japanese hand tools.

I have been telling this to so many people who have contacted me to offer me support and stuffs, but,,, this forum is just incredible! :doh:
I joined this forum just a week or so ago, and here I am being treated like a long time member:tears: You guys are great!

Actually I have just emailed this Japanese publisher if I can translate one of their books (for free even), which has lots of beautiful photos and interesting articles on Japanese blacksmiths and their tools. Many of the famous blacksmiths are covered, Chiyozuru Korehide, Hidari Ichiihro, Usui Kengo, Isihdo, etc.

I haven't got their reply yet, but I was speaking with my partner(wife) that if they can't publish it because they are not sure if it will sell, or whatever the reason, I should ask them for the copyright and look for a local pulisher who might be interested in publishing it. Does this pubulisher have high quality colour printing facility? If they do, I will definitely contact them if the Japanese publisher declines.

Also, my partner was telling me last night, that since so many people seem to be interested in my articles, I might consider writing a book in English. So, writing an article for this magazine could be a good start for me. I would be honored if they are interested.

My knowledge and experience isn't that great by iteself, but what makes me a bit special is that I have many friends who specializes in this area. I can communicate basically with any blacksmiths, through my friends, to get their tools, their knowledge/experience and their photographs. All my friends are delighted to hear that so many Aussies (even Canadians and Americans are contacting through eBay, and two have already purchased) are interested in Japanese tools. They are giving me full support to introduce these tools here. I am planning to open a web site to introduce these tools in a couple of weeks, I decided not to make it a shop, but there will be lots of photos of rare and beautiful Japanese tools.

If you are by any chance Steve's close friend or something, I would appreciate it if you could inform him of the postings I've made, and if he's interested he can always contact me through the forum.

Thanks again!!!:2tsup: :2tsup: :2tsup:

[Groggy]

BTW interesting to note that this forum and the recent Forestry forum wasn't queried like the other new forum.:D Really? We didn't notice...:wink: :rolleyes:

[soatoz]

Thanks Soatoz

I found your post very informative ... and your english is fine ... please keep posting. I, for one, would like to learn more about Japanese tools. The one thing that has stopped me buying is my lack of knowledge in this area.

jas

Hi jas!

Thanks, yep I will. I got couple of people from the forum offering me their assistance already!

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Japan has a very high commodity price, so the tools are quite expensive as well, especially if you compare them with good Western machine made tools. Unless you really know the value, it should be very diffcult to see why there is such a great difference in price, between say basic Stanley tools. If Stanley tools were of terrible quality, then it should be easy to see the difference, but they are actually ve~ry good. Considering the price they are even excellent. I used to use them too!

Well, stick around with this Japanese Tools section, or visit my eBay items page, and I think there will come a time where you feel not so risky to tryout some of the tools. Also you can wait until there are enough feedbacks from the forum members and see if it's worth it or not. I'm hoping that many users would find my tools very cost effective. But that's all up to the users, so I don't know yet.

Talk to you again~~~

[AlexS]

Thanks for these posts, Soatoz, they are most interesting.

As one who once tried to buy disposable nappies in Tokyo by asking for 'furoshiki tisai' (I think that translates something like 'a wrapping cloth for a little' I'm not going to criticise your English.

[Schtoo]

Alex, yer right. Wrapping a little (chisai) is what you were asking for. Oshiri-no-furoshiki might have been more fruitful, since that would be a wrapping for a... err... backside?

Oh-mu-tsu is what you should have been asking for. A little late now I guess, sorry about that. :D

And that's it from me. I am now backing away slowly from this forum. :cool:

[sinjin]

Hello Saotoz and welcome, I for one have been waiting so long for a group to start up like this.

[Caliban]

Hi Soatoz
thanks for the informative posts. I too have not bought Japanese because of my ignorance of what is good and what is garbage. So now I know that I know even less than I thought I did. If that makes any sense.:rolleyes:
I have read your ebay page and some of groggy's review. I think your book ides is excellent and you'd have a ready market on this forum alone.
Well done and welcome.

[soatoz]

Hi Soatoz
thanks for the informative posts. I too have not bought Japanese because of my ignorance of what is good and what is garbage. So now I know that I know even less than I thought I did. If that makes any sense.:rolleyes:
I have read your ebay page and some of groggy's review. I think your book ides is excellent and you'd have a ready market on this forum alone.
Well done and welcome.

Whewy----!! I've finally opened my web site!!
I've been working on it day in day out for the past couple of months. There's much to add but basically it's looking good:)

The site must be very different because it has much collector's items, rare tools and best of all selection of natural stones. This is because this site is my hobby.

Thank you all to who's already contacted, bought from, visited me, and I'll be expecting to meet more J tools fans through this web site. And thanks to my partner who has taught me how to code HTML, and designed the basic structure of this site!!

[ozwinner]

Sorry So you may find some rust on the chisels as I have just drooled over them all. :-

Al :U

[Wild Dingo]

Welcome So... or in your language uerukamu, irasshai, settai, hougei, kangei depending I guess on the region of Japan you originate from?

I'll not bore you with my fanbloodytastic grasp of the Japanese lingo :; (its all in the above paragraph :B )

After speaking recently with a forum guru of things sharp and recieving quite reverently his advice regarding Japanese chisels I was on the verge of visiting one of the woodworking stores over here and getting some... then I had cause to pm with the forumite known as Shedhand or alternatively Mike and his words regarding yourself and your business have convinced me of your being THE MAN with regard securing some of the finest Japanese tools in Australia... if not the finest...

Problem for me is...
1) they confuse me I mean how does one KNOW who made the things and if they were any good at it?
2) Being monolinguistic or rather linguistically challenged I didnt understand 10 words of your above article.
3) Information is sadly very sparce regarding these tools and any assistance knowledge or information is like gold... well actually opals cause I like opals better than gold but hey thats just me Im like that :doh:

I reckon a book would be a brilliant idea!! with translations and photos showing the literal translation would be ideal for someone like myself.

I have also visited your site... and scared the cockatoos out of the pine tree down the back paddock with the initial SCREAM of terror at the prices... but then Im like that too... you havent met the missus mate she may be small but when it comes to parting with $$$ shes a flamin pocket rocket of terror!... but never you fear as the holder of and named owner of the humble CC I have my ways of covert operations of avoidance techniques of such brilliance she always sighs mightily and gives in... oh why I wrote that? well since I have NO IDEA the differences between on Japanese chisel and another I would need all my considerable powers of persuasion to convince myself to part with so much for one chisel as some of those are... so that above is there as a tempter you see

To tempt you to teach me why I should be looking to buy your fine chisels and planes... pretty cool eh? :2tsup:

saraba, wakare, owakare, miokuri, kokubetsu So... or farwell So

Damn my Japanese is rusty dusty and shocking!! well I also have no idea how to operate an Aussie to English dictionary so how was it ever going to work from Aussie to Japanese? :doh:

[ozwinner]

Damn my Japanese is rusty dusty and shocking!! well I also have no idea how to operate an Aussie to English dictionary so how was it ever going to work from Aussie to Japanese? :doh:

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Al :2tsup:

[Groggy]

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Al :2tsup:Is that so So can translate Dingos stuff? :D

[ozwinner]

Its so we can all translate Dingos lingo.

I think we need an Abrgidgelator for Dingos posts.

Al :U

[soatoz]

Welcome So... or in your language uerukamu, irasshai, settai, hougei, kangei depending I guess on the region of Japan you originate from?

Yes! Pure Japanese.



After speaking recently with a forum guru of things sharp and recieving quite reverently his advice regarding Japanese chisels I was on the verge of visiting one of the woodworking stores over here and getting some... then I had cause to pm with the forumite known as Shedhand or alternatively Mike and his words regarding yourself and your business have convinced me of your being THE MAN with regard securing some of the finest Japanese tools in Australia... if not the finest...

I'M THE MAN~~~:)


Problem for me is...

Okay let me answer one at a time!


1) they confuse me I mean how does one KNOW who made the things and if they were any good at it?

This is easy to answer. How does one KNOW for Western tools? The answer would probably be the same for Japanese tools.





One person who ordered Tasai chisels once asked me how he can be sure of it's authenticity and the answer was as follows.
but, is there any kind of guarantee as to the makers authenticity? I mean no offense" but better to be safe than sorry"Yeah. Well I can't think of any way to "prove" the authenticity that would be convincing enough to you. I can tell you that there is no report for fake Tasai at all because chisels are too hard to make, Tasai chisels aren't expensive enough to gain any by making fakes unlike $4000 for set of 10 Ichihiro chisels, so all the fakes are plane blades, so there is no worry for that, but that's what "I" know so it wouldn't give you any comfort I suppose, right? And I can tell you that I am getting the tools from this certain wholesaler who is very close to Tasai family, but again this won't be no proof right? I could simply be lying. So, basically there is no way as far as I can think. If you can give me an idea of how to prove it's authenticity I'd be glad to give it to you as long as it's not too time consuming. But I don't think there's any way.

So, hows this? If the items were proven to be fakes (which will never happen (^^)), I will guarantee your money back. Again this is not gonna happen, but in case of return I'm gonna have to ask you to have it in it's original state (minor front side sharpening is okay) and pay for the shipping. But again that's not gonna happen so it's kind of silly to even discuss this. hahaha But like you said one can't be over prepared, right?

BTW, have you read my eBay description on how to get Japanese tools? There are so many fakes and faulty plane blades sold as genuine, and sometimes the seller (the shop) himself isn't aware of that. Because for instance a certain very famous plane blade blacksmith who charges over $1000 for his cheapest tools, he let his apprentice who was still in the training make his tools, while he goes out to Pachinko game centers and play, and only chisel or stamp the brand on and sign the box himself and sell it as genuine. No one can tell that it's fake unless this person is VERY familiar with this blacksmith's steel, so that he can tell that the steel is not forged as well by sharpening or planing thereby returning the tool. There are so many episode like this. If I tell you all the story, you'd be too frightened to buy anything. So, as I wrote in that article on How to get Japanese tools, there is only one way. Build trust slowly by buying small amount of tools at a time, and see the quality you get. Also you need to study as well, in order to be able to see the difference in quality.

So, at the moment I can only tell you this.

"Trsut me and get some tools from me. I'll promise you'll be satisfied with my tools."

===


2) Being monolinguistic or rather linguistically challenged I didnt understand 10 words of your above article.

Try refering to the glossary Groggy has stickied for me, and if that's still not good enough, you can ask me!


3) Information is sadly very sparce regarding these tools and any assistance knowledge or information is like gold...


Yeah, I was told by someone I should charge for the infos I'm giving, but nah I don't wanna do that.

Anyway, what you need is a book called "Japanese Woodworking Tools" by Odate-san. It will give you lots of info regarding J tools. And to train your eyes to tell which tools are good and which are not so good (this is VE~~~RY important), you can get "Dougu Mandala" by Muramatsu Teijirou. You can get both titles from YOU KNOW WHERE.



well actually opals cause I like opals better than gold but hey thats just me Im like that :doh:

So do I!



I reckon a book would be a brilliant idea!! with translations and photos showing the literal translation would be ideal for someone like myself.


Yeah, I'll get to it when I get the time. But there is something I have to do with Groggy, right mate? so it will have to wait for the time being.



I have also visited your site... and scared the cockatoos out of the pine tree down the back paddock with the initial SCREAM of terror at the prices...


Hahaha, I know!



but then Im like that too... you havent met the missus mate she may be small but when it comes to parting with $$$ shes a flamin pocket rocket of terror!... but never you fear as the holder of and named owner of the humble CC I have my ways of covert operations of avoidance techniques of such brilliance she always sighs mightily and gives in... oh why I wrote that? well since I have NO IDEA the differences between on Japanese chisel and another I would need all my considerable powers of persuasion to convince myself to part with so much for one chisel as some of those are... so that above is there as a tempter you see


Let me just explain briefly for now.

First of all expensive J tools are 100% handmade. Japanese making with hands.... If you know the commodity price in Japan, you should see that alone would boost the price so much.

Second of all, almost all J tools are laminated. More work. By laminating steel there are lots of benefit, but basically the edge will be much sharper yet much easier to sharpen.

So, J tools are work of an art itself rather than being just a tool. I've seen truely beautiful Western planes and when we talk about those tools, then the price isn't so different between the two right?




To tempt you to teach me why I should be looking to buy your fine chisels and planes... pretty cool eh? :2tsup:


Okay, let me know your preference when you decide to order.
Sheddy must have told you how we chose his chisels right?

I need to know what kind of wood you most frequently work with, and the kind of stones you have, to start with!



saraba, wakare, owakare, miokuri, kokubetsu So... or farwell So


doumo doumo, soreja~ matane~~~~

[Caliban]

Its so we can all translate Dingos lingo.

I think we need an Abrgidgelator for Dingos posts.

Al :U

All of us except for Soatoz. He seems to understand Dingo better than most of us. Perhaps Dingo speaks with Japanese accent.:rolleyes: