hardwoods

[Daddles]

In my innocence, I am building a couple of 8' pram dinghies. The plans tell me I must make some bits out of hardwood - gunwales, inwales, skegs, miscelaneous frames and stips, centreboard and rudder, etc.

This is a worry because I'm a dunce when it comes to timber.

Can someone recommend some timbers that I'm likely to find in the shops here in Adelaide. These are just working dinghies - they aren't being build as show boats so I'm interested in workability, availability, durability and economy when making my choice.

A mate, also a novice at boat building, is planning to use meranti - does anyone have some thoughts here?

Cheers,
Richard

[Sledge Forward]

have U thought about marine ply.

[STEPHEN MILLER]

Daddles
Try Duck Flat at Mt Barker for advice and some supplies marine ply is good and less time required but try things like Boat Cote to protect by coating the whole sheet and then cut to size to find more on boat cote go to www.boatcraft.com.au Meranti is good if you want to do strip planking as it easy to get and use.

Good Luck Stephen Miller

[scottyk]

maybe try using air dried Tas oak/vic ash..........gum tree.

If it is air dried it should take some bend ok and it is harder than meranti in use for gunwhales etc, the next step up in expense and durablity is mahogany or teak but is a big step up in price. In the end if you use the right methods for sealing it up tas oak would be fine and not to expnesive.
regards scottyk

[Daddles]

OMG Scotty. Dredging up my innocence from two years ago :eek:
Bloody hell mate, I haven't improved much since :D

Thanks for the thoughts on Tassie Oak because it's one of those timbers I've wondered about ... being readily available from such shark infested establishements as (**gasp**) Bunnings (can I mention that name on this forum ?).

As for my current and past needs, the local TAFE, where I did a boat building course, two actually, put me on to Kapur. It's the Malaysian hardwood used to make hardwood decking. Great stuff. Available everywhere. Cheap. Easy to machine and, once you take those ripples off the top surface, entirely suitable for hardwood bits in boats. Ahh, doncha lovit when the consumer mentality does you a good deed? :cool:

But thanks for the thoughts on Tassie Oak. It's a nice looking timber and I'm not that far off building things that actually look as though I care ... as well as working well.

Cheers
Richard
building work boats, not show boats :D
(that's a cop out if you didn't guess)

[mtwarning]

Tassy Oak is a generic term for a range of hardwoods that are not in sufficient commercial quantities to market under their own name.
Flooded Gum (Eucalytus grandis), also know as Rose Gum in Qld is a good bending timber for Gunwales, stringers etc. I built the hull of my Hartley Spindrift 24 back in 1986 using Flooded Gum framing. I coated the whole lot in 4 coats of Evedure and she is as sound as the day I built her. My boat reached lockup in 1989 and has sat ever since under some old tarps and I have just started working on her again today. The only dryrot was in a corner of the cockpit floor and will be easy to repair.
This is my first post here so greetings to all.

[Blackdog]

Hello All
I'm new here and haven't lived in Adelaide since I was a boy....but generallywhen seeking hardwood I'd go to a mill or merchant who stocks the stuff, GREEN.I'd have a look in the racks ,ask the bloke doing the lifting and choose something that will bend ,especially if it were for that purpose.

If it were for rudders,cleat,centre board truck etc I'd off to the local demo yard and select from some very nice air dried stock:)...cheeep too !

[Boatmik]

Howdy,

As a boat designer and boat builder - with a small boat like a praam there is little scope for use of hardwoods. They just add weight - softwoods have EASILY enough strength to deal with the loads of the parts that you mention.

The only places I use hardwoods is areas where the boat is going to contact somethig hard. So Bottom skids or keelsons or gunwales (usually I suggest a thin layer or hardwood (6mm) laminated to the face of a softwood gunwale.

The general purpose species for ply boats used to be Oregon and Western Red cedar (for internal bits that were not going to be directly hit by anything).

These are getting pretty pricey - would probably recommend Hoop pine for just about everything (almost the same density as oregon)- will keep the weight down for lugging.

I don't fancy doing any rudder or centreboard shaping in hardwood unless the foil shape is pretty crude.

Green hardwood is probably not that compatible with modern epoxy glues - or any other glues - until it has dried out a bit. Green sawn hardwood is the best for Trad boatbuilding.

Wooden Knick Knacks like horn cleats etc are good in hardwood.

The aforementioned duck flat has the hoop.

MIK
http://www.storerboatplans.com

[STEPHEN MILLER]

Richard
Life is a never ending learning curve there better places to get supplies, advice and products to use etc then what we knew of two years ago
Boatmik call yourself a boat designer and builder do that when you build and design real boats not canoes and skiffs that are a dime a dozen and most seem to replecate a previous idea :D

[Daddles]

Steve, perhaps we should point out that your wee boatie is a thirty footer and I seem to recall you looking at that twenty footer we were building at TAFE and calling it a TENDER! :eek: ... or was that someone else

Besides, don't pick on MIK, he's designing my next boat for me :D
And a beauty it is too.
Long.
Lean.
Heated spa just behind the missile launchers :D

Cheers
Richard

[Boatmik]

Richard
Life is a never ending learning curve there better places to get supplies, advice and products to use etc then what we knew of two years ago
Boatmik call yourself a boat designer and builder do that when you build and design real boats not canoes and skiffs that are a dime a dozen and most seem to replecate a previous idea :D
WOW, where did that come from ...

I make a living out of designing boats and bits of boats.

I have built enough boats to have a chronic allergy to Western Red Cedar Dust.

So I build boats and I design boats.

Best Regards
Michael Storer

[Wild Dingo]

Welcome Blackdog :cool:

Formalities over onwards and upwards!!

Now I dont design or build boats... mmmm yes I do... mmm maybe?... well I have redesigned a boat! That is taken the offsets from a 50ft Pearler and redesigned it down to 28ft... And Ive built a wee canoe

... so ergo based on the aforgoing post... Im a boat builder and designer eh!! :D :cool:

(note here... no offence meant boatmik! Just pullin yer leg)

Now back to Daddles and his wee question... hardwoods okay cant say as Id build one without the guneles and such bein harwood for a start they will take the knocks better than any softwood

Okay now Richard me ol cobber... you have heard of Jarrah right? West Aussie red timber quite famous really and well lots of fellas scream for it but heck we just burn the stuff... burns good an hot... anyway!! Thats what you need mate! ;) The tassy stuff is great and so is the banana bender gear mind here South Aussie should have some of its own hard wood available? use local if you can eh Richard?

Its not a show pony and even if it were would it matter? the weight adding that your doing by adding hardwood will be negligable but the wearability will be outstanding... and the uses you will torture it with it will need every bit of wearability it can get eh Daddles :D

If you get desperate give us a hoi and we will see what can be done...

[Daddles]

Cripes, could you blokes read the dates? I've been using the flamin' boat for the last six months :eek:

Just teasing, but yes, I've had to rotten thing in the water often enough to realise that the design flaws match the design errors :(

Not to worry. In a few days time I'll be able to tease you all with my latest acquisition ... once I've done the acquiring part.

Cheers
Richard

[Wild Dingo]

STREWTH!!! 2003!! Man I gotta start lookin for the dates on these threads!! :eek:

So anyways did you get the Jarrah mate? :D

[Daddles]

Jarrah? I can't afford the timber from the stringy bark the wind blew over last week, and that's free :eek:

Bah, humbug. Yeah, I'll remember the jarrah ... :)

Richard

ruddy boats - a bloke can't shovel the money fast enough :rolleyes:

[Boatmik]

Now I dont design or build boats... mmmm yes I do... mmm maybe?... well I have redesigned a boat! That is taken the offsets from a 50ft Pearler and redesigned it down to 28ft... And Ive built a wee canoe

... so ergo based on the aforgoing post... Im a boat builder and designer eh!! :D :cool:

(note here... no offence meant boatmik! Just pullin yer leg)

Quite agree Dingo. I certainly would never say you are not a boatbuilder! Sorta defies logic.

(Thought I would do my bit to keep this dead thread (Mea Culpa, Daddles) on life support)

[Daddles]

Now hang on Shane. You took a 50 ft pearler, redesigned her as 28 ft, then built her as a CANOE :eek:

Man, you've got to stop drinking that home brew. :D

Richard

[Wild Dingo]

aaahh see now many wouldnt think so mate... I mean it was a ply canoe... it only took a weekend to "build"... so some would say it was just whacked together in a head rush brainphart sorta way... which it was... but it did float and paddled rather well kids loved it and so did yours truely so tis only really from a personal viewpoint that I say Im a boatbuilder...

The only other thing Ive done is to restore an old 13ft ply fishing dinghy that was given to me by a mate on hot weekend... did a fine job to I reckon... but her highness me loverley missus decided that she would make an aweflaminsome flower bed so with assistance from the mighty mouse Joshy they attacked all me good work with HAMMERS!! :mad: so now the poor ol girl is sitting up the back waiting for a hole to be dug so she can plant flowers or vegies into my beautiful babys belly!! sheilas eh? :rolleyes:

As to bein a designer well I took the lines of "Trixen" {the old Broome Pearl Lugger that was restored and now resides inside the WA Maritime Museum in Freo) and considered how she would look smaller and with my initial enquiries was told flat out that I couldnt do it... A challenge I could not refuse... so I redrew the thing down to 40ft too big so I redrew it down to 30ft still to wide to trailer so down she went to 28ft bloody near perfek!... a lot of tweeking emailin between West Aussie, Nova Scotia, Maine, Seattle, NSW, Vic, England, Germany and a French NA in Vietnam and Id got her looking rather spiffy :cool: then I wondered about the weight factor... lead on keel? lead bars in the bilge? how much? gawd strewth I near had a hartphart!! :eek: I failed kindergarden maths for gawds sake!! (mmm and I was 30 at the time :D)

So a few more emails back and forth and finally three NAs agreed 1000lbs of lead would do it... some division was then occuring as to how to distribute it... I settled the arguement by deciding that 500 fixed outside and 500 inside with 600 being made in bars so that once the stability point is found the extra weight would be removed... the inside 500lbs could then can be laid in epoxy and set in the bilge

Anyway that all took about 5 months or so till I was pretty happy with the numbers and her look was just right... then I did the real bright spark thing and sent the whole shammozle over east when a mate came to visit a parting gift sorta thing... I HAD THOUGHT Id kept the plans or at least a copy of the offsets... but nope :( ... so anyway a couple of years later there was this storm see and the bloke over east decided I needed some reading material so he gathers up a whole mess of scans of old magazines and sends em over... right smack in the middle of that pile was... me offsets!! :cool:

She is one Im considering building just to prove to meself I was right and stick it to those flamin snooty nosed NAs and other gits who said I couldnt do it... But! It would be a bloody expensive stuff up if theyre right and Im wrong eh? :eek: :p :D Man I would be just ssssssssssoooooooooooooooo quiet!!! :o

Yous blokes: "Hows that luggar goin Dingo?"
Dingo: "Well ahem aaahhh welll shes doin okay"
Yous blokes: "When you launchin?"
Dingo: "Well ahem aaahhh well see I really gotta do this or that"
Yous blokes: "Show us some pics mate"
Dingo: "Well ahem ssee well its sorta like.. mmm the cameras buggared?"

SPLASH DAY

"Waaaaahoooooooooooo shes launched and we took her for sea trials today bloody ripsnorter bobbydazzler I DONE DID IT!!" :cool:

or else

Yous blokes: "Hey Dingo you launched that luggar yet?"

........

Yous blokes: "Oi Dingo yer mug yer launched yet?"
.......

Yous blokes: "Bet yer hes out sailin her eh"
More yous blokes: "Yer reckon he woulda told us about her?"
Yous blokes again: "Comeon Dingo howd she do?"
.......

The silence from the Dingo one would be deafening :(

Then again...

Howd the launch go Dingo?
Man it went a bloody ripsnorter
Really?
Yer mate flamin ripper of a day... backed the trailer down the ramp slowly launched her into the drink... sun was shinin seagulls screamin hoons muckin about... poured some champers over her bows drunk the rest evey one scampered aboard and set the sails! whaaaaaaaaaaahoooo bloody brilliant mate"
Excellent Dingo!
Yer was mate... till the wind picked up the foresail ripped its length the missus went assovertit tryin to gather it in 2 of the hoons jumped overboard to help her but forgot to take the lifebouy then the mainsail tore down its lenght so sent Aaron scamperin up to pull her down but he got his gronicles stuck in the topmost boom so had to send meself up to get him uinstuck then the boat continued along at a leasurely pace on her own...
Well least yer all were alright eh mate?
Yer guess so sept poor bloody Aaron ended up in hospital the missus is suein me the other hoons have decided theyre gonna enter the Perth to Rotto swim race
Didnt the motor start up mate?
Motor? What bloody motor! I was doin the great seafarin thing an sail on sail alone none of them pussy motor things for a sailorman... still wouldnt have helped I guess
Why what else happened mate
Well after I got young Aaron down and settled him and after Id let all sails down and tied to the booms I went downstairs to have a gander and send out the sos for Jo who along with the other nippers were some miles behind us... but well the cabin had turned into a swimming pool or fishin tank wasnt quite sure wich actually...
So whatdidyer do mate?
What did I do? what every sailor man does... tossed the liferaft overboard hurled the young fella on board and went down with the ship to davey jones locker

Have a goodun mates!! :cool:

[ED T]

I'll bet the plans are US ones, where "hardwood" is anything except conifers. So Meranti (pacific maple) is a hardwood by US boat building standards.

Except for things which must be stiff (centreboard and rudder) or which will take hard knocks (stem, gunwhale, leading edge of centreboard and rudder, mast housing), I use Meranti. Don't like western red cedar too much as it splits easily, but it would be OK for frames.

I like to use Baltic Ash for those hardwearing edges, and I fit them so they can be replaced when worn or damaged. Often they will only be a few mm thick.

Remember that in plywood boats, the strength is usually in the ply skin. the solid timber framing generally provides only the framing, and a gluing surface. So it does not need to be thick, but does need good cross grain strength.

Ed T