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crookedcut
17th February 2007, 12:25 PM
Hi...I am new to this great forum...have browsed this forum alot and have finally decided to register and contribute...I cannot contribute to this metalworking forum as yet as I am a virgin to this...woodworking is my hobby...but have decided to expand and try some metal working..welding and cutting for jigs and such..I have no metal working tools so I would like a few ideas...just at a beginners cost if you would...no bells and whistles just want it to work WELL....TIA

martrix
17th February 2007, 12:39 PM
Hi...I am new to this great forum...have browsed this forum alot and have finally decided to register and contribute...I cannot contribute to this metalworking forum as yet as I am a virgin to this...woodworking is my hobby...but have decided to expand and try some metal working..welding and cutting for jigs and such..I have no metal working tools so I would like a few ideas...just at a beginners cost if you would...no bells and whistles just want it to work WELL....TIA
Hi Crooked, as a woodworker it is a huge bonus to be able to weld.

In my opinion, a MIG welder is most suitable as its unlikely that you will weld steel thicker than 1/2" and a MIG produces a nice clean weld with no slag to chip off. I think you should be able to get a decent 130-160amp gas MIG in the U.S. for under US$500. Get one that uses Argon gas, which is an extra cost but well worth it.

I recommend you read a book or two on the subject to get educated first before buying anything.

echnidna
17th February 2007, 01:38 PM
A mig might be nice but is far more expensive to buy and run than a simple Arc Welder.

My ex Son inlaw was a boilermaker and has always had a stick welder, his opiinion was that MIG wasn't worth the hassle & expense at home

So for someone new just doing it as a hobby I would just use an Arc Welder.
I have had an arc welder since I was a teenager over 40 years ago.

My current stick welder cost $99 from supercheap autos, Its a GMC brand. and its far superior to my old CIG arc welder.

Wood Butcher
17th February 2007, 01:48 PM
I know that this debate has been had quite a few times here already but I'll add my two cents anyways.

I think that Bob is right for the average home use. I will be buying a MIG in the future but only because I have plans for welding thin sheet metal in the future.
At school if I need to do a quick welding job I'll go for the ARC because its quick and easy. MIG's are more expensive to buy and run and are harder to get a good quality weld. They are easier to use but that doesn't mean you'll get a good weld. However if they are setup right they are great.

For a beginner welding anything over 2.5mm thick go for ARC, if you know you'll regularly be welding stuff thinner that 1.5 you might need the MIG

martrix
17th February 2007, 02:58 PM
I know that this debate has been had quite a few times here already but I'll add my two cents anyways.

I think that Bob is right for the average home use. I will be buying a MIG in the future but only because I have plans for welding thin sheet metal in the future.
At school if I need to do a quick welding job I'll go for the ARC because its quick and easy. MIG's are more expensive to buy and run and are harder to get a good quality weld. They are easier to use but that doesn't mean you'll get a good weld. However if they are setup right they are great.

For a beginner welding anything over 2.5mm thick go for ARC, if you know you'll regularly be welding stuff thinner that 1.5 you might need the MIG
Agree that a MIG is more expensive to purchase and maintain.

I have no experience with an Arc welder so I guess I cant really say that for sure one is better than the other.
If Crooked wants to make jigs and fixtures etc, wouldn't a MIG be better suited as you would generally be using 1.0mm-3.0mm thick steel? Its also good because its like using a hot melt glue gun as in you can just keep adding small welds here and there and always see whats going on, but with an Arc its messy and you have to chip off the slag.

WB, just interested as to why you think ARC is quick and easy for you?
My MIG setup is all on a custom made trolley(good first project:wink: ) with everything on it. Gas bottle, side cutters, clamps, mask etc. I just wheel it out, plug it in and turn on the regulator.

All I use for all my cutting and grinding is an angle grinder with either a 1.5mm? cut-off disc or the thicker 6mm disc for grinding.

SPIRIT
17th February 2007, 08:16 PM
my 1 cents worth
l have both a mig and a stick
they do diffrent things the stick weld is stronger by a street
the mig is great for light stuff and also if you have to build the weld up ,,best tool ever a grinder with the thin cut off disc like martrix said no more hacksawing:U dont get any stick welder under 140 amps:2tsup:

fraserbluff
17th February 2007, 09:54 PM
I would go with the Arc. Have had both at the larger scale end (250amp arc and 500amp Mig). Less mucking about and less cost in a home occasional workshop. Only down side is the issue with very thin metals, but there are work arounds (and when all else fails, rivet it!)
Cheers

Donald

Grahame Collins
17th February 2007, 10:19 PM
Hi Crookedcut
Welcome to the forum,
Comparing apples with apples the humble stickwelder will generally outperform the Mig most of the time

1. Cost price
2. Maintainence
3. No re occuring costs-eg cylinder rental .38c Au perday
4.Simple skills and a little knowledge required
5.Electrodes available for a range of metals
6.Can weld down to 1.6mm -16g for Americans
7.Reliability Put it away for ten years and get it out again and away it will go.

Thats my 2c worth

Grahame

BobL
18th February 2007, 12:40 AM
A budget angle grinder with a thin cutting wheel, and a budget stick welder sounds like it will get you a fair way for very little money. You effectively get what you pay for - budget stuff will get you something that can function at home handyman throughput for a few years and allow you to build up basic skills. By then you will know if its for you and then you can decide to upgrade and then the sky is the limit.

A few other tips:
A wire wheel for the grinder will allow you to quickly clean up scrap metal so you can practice cutting/welding or even construct with it. A short flap sanding disk for the angle grinder is useful way of cleaning up after the welding job prior to painting.

A wide selection of sizes of metal C-clamps (eg 3, 4 and 6 ") and magnetic mitre hold alls will allow you to secure you work safely and will be handy for other things.

A couple of pairs of multigrips are often better for holding small bits than clamps. A pair of pliers or tongs on hand are essential for picking up hot bits of metal as is some water in a bucket in case things go pear shaped.

Welding/grinding metal in a home shop on a wooden bench or wooden floor with wood shavings and dust and welding fumes around is hazardous. If you can, set up a separate area of your shed away from fire hazards. A dedicated metal surfaced bench with a machinist vice is very handy. I avoid welding in my shed and usually work outside on brick paving. My welding table consists of two bits of angle iron welded to a 2 x 2 ft steel plate which I clamp to 2 saw horses.

Don't forget the safety gear, decent flip welding helmet and long leather gloves when using the welder. Ear muffs, full face shield when using the angle grinder and wire wheel. Wear long sleeves and tough pants and decent boots when using these tools.

After this its reading/practice and if you know someone who can give you a brief run down on what to do and can watch you welding they can help correct any problems and help you progress mreo quickly.

I hope that helps.

Ashore
18th February 2007, 02:16 AM
but have decided to expand and try some metal working..welding and cutting for jigs and such
Mate Welcome to the forum
Here in Australia we have local Technical Colleges in most larger towns and they run beginners welding courses if you have the equivelent in your local area I would suggest you do a beginners course and see which welder suits you best , a stick welder can be for some just a natural extension of the arm and from the first use is a joy to use for others it can be the most frustrating device satan ever made , for ease of use for a novice an inverter type is proberly the easiest to use from scratch but has limitations with penertration and is far more expensive ( I am still saving for one to replace my arc welder) , the mig is also and easy use welder but though not as expensive as an inverter ( at the lower end of the range ) is more expensive to run ,
as for cutting a good angle grinder, 5" , is a great investment and then use either cutting or grinding blades as required , the added bonus is you can also with the correct blades cut stone , concrete, tiles etc


Rgds

Wood Butcher
18th February 2007, 11:13 AM
WB, just interested as to why you think ARC is quick and easy for you? My MIG setup is all on a custom made trolley(good first project:wink: ) with everything on it. Gas bottle, side cutters, clamps, mask etc. I just wheel it out, plug it in and turn on the regulator.

I would call myself proficient in both machines. The reason I like stick is that I can adjust the heat of the weld with ARC simply but increasing or decreasing the arc length while I am welding. MIG isn't as forgiving if the voltage or the wire speed is not set right. But having said that I can also jump on one of the MIG's at school at know where to set the variables for what I am welding.

I like ARC welding because of the simplicity and versatility. I've literally done welding on a roof truss on a 20ft scaffold with a welder slung over my back. Do that with MIG!!


Its also good because its like using a hot melt glue gun as in you can just keep adding small welds here and there and always see whats going on, but with an Arc its messy and you have to chip off the slag.I think that some people have a misconception with ARC welders and the slag. If you have the heat right for a stick weld, the slag will literally fall straight off the weld. I can tack up a job as good as a MIG could do with very little work to clean up the slag.

Having said all of this. I have had a lot of training in both ARC and Mig welding, but most of the work I did in welding (machine frames and industrial sheds) was using an ARC so I am very confident in my abilities. The best advice I can give in regards to beginner welding is what Ashoe suggested, go to a TAFE college and do a night course in intro welding. Most courses will cover ARC, MIG and maybe even oxy welding/cutting. By doing this you can sort of try before you buy and get a feel of what style suits what you want to do.

crookedcut
18th February 2007, 11:23 AM
to all of you thanks alot for your replies...I think I will try the following if you think it is the right path..

arc welder..approx. 140amps...110or220 doesnt matter to me since my woodshop already uses 220...

all safety gear

like to stay around 200. on sale if possible for starting out just for welder the gear will be above that...

does this sound about right.....now I only need to be steered in the right direction on names to look at

again thanks to you all

simso
18th February 2007, 11:33 AM
Hard call, especially if you want to weld thin steel.
I have at home mig, tig, arc, and oxy. They all have different advantages and disadvantages.
If your goal is to weld .6mm mild steel then tig is your only option
If your goal is to weld 1mm mild steel then tig or mig with gas are your options
If your goal is to weld 1.2mm mild steel then tig or mig including gasless modes are your options
If your goal is to weld 1.6mm steel then tig and mig both modes and arc are your options

Cheapest unit to own and run is the arc welder about 80bucks aust purchase and rods for ongoing use. Second cheapest is your mig in the gasless mode about 350bucks aust plus gasless wire ongoing use. Mig in gas mode ongoing usse includes hiring and refilling gas bottles fill is about 120 hire is about 60 per year. Last unit which is the best of the best is a tig which costs about 5000aust and bottle hire and rods for ongoing use.
If you want to weld stainless and ally then a mig will do an okay job but you need rolls of wire nd teflon guide in your feed handle. Tig welds these materials perfectly just a different feeder rod and electrode
Steve

crookedcut
18th February 2007, 12:26 PM
since I have never welded before I do not know what I am going to run up against..I have been woodworking since I was 10 with my dad..and have never had to have a welder up to my age at this point...BUT I am in the mood to learn something new...I would probably for the time anyway be doing angle iron and such to make wood jigs..as before I would have to hacksaw drill and tap...nothing serious at this point but I also said that 49 years ago when I cut my first piece of wood...lol

martrix
18th February 2007, 01:06 PM
I would call myself proficient in both machines. The reason I like stick is that I can adjust the heat of the weld with ARC simply but increasing or decreasing the arc length while I am welding. MIG isn't as forgiving if the voltage or the wire speed is not set right. But having said that I can also jump on one of the MIG's at school at know where to set the variables for what I am welding.

I like ARC welding because of the simplicity and versatility. I've literally done welding on a roof truss on a 20ft scaffold with a welder slung over my back. Do that with MIG!!

I think that some people have a misconception with ARC welders and the slag. If you have the heat right for a stick weld, the slag will literally fall straight off the weld. I can tack up a job as good as a MIG could do with very little work to clean up the slag.

Having said all of this. I have had a lot of training in both ARC and Mig welding, but most of the work I did in welding (machine frames and industrial sheds) was using an ARC so I am very confident in my abilities. The best advice I can give in regards to beginner welding is what Ashoe suggested, go to a TAFE college and do a night course in intro welding. Most courses will cover ARC, MIG and maybe even oxy welding/cutting. By doing this you can sort of try before you buy and get a feel of what style suits what you want to do.
Fair enough and agree with all of it.

There is not a chance I would try and sling my MIG over my shoulder on a roof. Its hard enough trying to lift it off the ground.:rolleyes: :D

I guess ARC is more versatile because you can weld different materials by just changing the rods that you are using. WB, have you ever welded Cast Iron? that would be handy.

I bought my MIG and taught myself from a book because I was restoring an old Holden and no panel beater would weld up the rust repair sections on the body, so I did it myself and the MIG was the right solution for it.

I guess I will definitely look into an ARC when I break something that is cast:- or when I need to weld something that is structural and needs the penetration.

I have a book somewhere, but is there a test I can do to see how much penetration I get from my MIG at its highest setting?

Wood Butcher
18th February 2007, 03:09 PM
Tried weldin cast once but it was challenging. I have been told that a lot has to do with weld preparation and post-heat/slow cooling. After welding the job is normally post heated then packed in something to retard the rate of cooling so that internal stresses have a chance to normalise.

I don't know about tests for weld penetration but so long as you prepare the welds properly anything is possible.

simso
18th February 2007, 03:19 PM
Tig welds cast just fine, if your going to mig or even arc you really need to carbonise the job first, basically oxy the item till its nice and hot and then throw a carbon type dust onto it, sounds weird but works fine, else just tig it and hit it with a hammer as it cools to stress relieve it. The onlly way to test your penetration is with an xray or ultrasonically. Else you cut a sample piece up after welding to know if your settings are right. Hope this info helps
Steve

ANTHONY62
18th February 2007, 06:50 PM
Ashore, sorry, might be missing something here but could you please clarify the penetration issue with the inverters ? I was under the impression that one could reverse polarity on DC to do the root runs - on the proviso that one has achieved correct joint preparation , it shouldn't be too much of an issue. I am aware of the arc blow issue with DC.

Ref. cast iron, it's probably dependent upon the type of cast we're dealing with. Some of the stuff just won't weld anyway. I've done both hot and cold weld procedures, preferring the hot which entails preheat to cherry-red and welding with 4816 then controlling ramp-down. Cold is a pain in the backside - short runs with controlled interpass utilising a nickel based electrode, then controlling ramp-down. The stuff usually cracks and then you have to back-gouge anyway.

Grahame Collins
18th February 2007, 10:55 PM
Goodness me chaps! what are you doing? Stop trying to confuse our new would be welders!

What am I on about ?
A new bloke asks about buying a suitable welder and someone is writing how you can weld cast iron with it. Crikey!

THINK! please - new welder - no previous experience -beginner level machine . Come on Now!
The are several different types of cast iron some not easy to distinguish from each other and some of them not weldable at all .The result of not UNDERSTANDING exactly ,what how,when or why are not going to be good. Truly people,cast iron is really only something for very experienced welders.

As for inverters I cut and pasted this from one of the brand leaders websites with editing.Yes it mentions tig but the power source is interchangable for MMAW (stick)

Insert company blurb
(Today, the next generation of this technology - AC TIG inverter - features three advanced square wave technology capabilities.
First: The AC TIG inverter produces incredibly smooth, stable arcs because the squarewave is driven through the zero point thousands of times faster than a rectifier-based welder. XXXXXX’S inverters are so fast that its built-in, high frequency capabilities are used for arc starting only. They also offer Lift-Arc™ starting capabilities to eliminate the use of high frequency completely, even on AC.

Second: Inverter-based welders extend EN balance control. The ZXZXZXZXZX lets operators fine-tune duration times from 50 percent to 90 percent. Making the EN ( Electrode Negative) portion of cycle last longer achieves greater penetration; narrows the weld bead; increases travel speeds up to 20 percent; may permit using a smaller diameter tungsten to more precisely direct the heat or make a narrower weld bead; and, reduces the size of the etched zone for improved cosmetics )

OK! ITS me talking again
The inverter that most of us could afford will be DC therefore one can use DC -which would be normal 2/3 of heat input arc centered or alternately DC+ which you would use for stainless steel, low hydrogen type electrodes or even cast iron if you were experienced enough.

The perception that the inverter welder per se lacks penetration just is not true .It stems perhaps from the fact that they are much better at joining thin materials (OH god! we are back to that again ) Jokes aside the soft start and ultra controllable arc enables the arc not to explode a hole in thin section of material. I have (inverter)welded 4mm diameter mesh rod to 3mm diameter mesh rod.Try it with a choke stick welder and see how you fare.

Having said all that ,I still believe the humble stick is suitable for the majority of work most DIY blokes can throw at it.
Ok! rant over
let the flames begin

Grahame

Grahame Collins
18th February 2007, 11:16 PM
As I pressed the submit button I had last minute rush of excrement to the brain.

Yeah! What, I so glaring omitted to mention, is that inverters such efficient units that they are,consume less power than their transformer cousins.

The equivalent settings for electrodes are far less for inverter than they are for the typical choked transformer stick system.

The local bloke that sells Fronios has taken the little 130 amp DC. "sling over shoulder model" home and used it without effect on the end of a 100m ext lead.


I have some stick work to do soon, so I'll do a pic series with some 2mm sticks on furniture tube.

Cheers
Grahame

SPIRIT
19th February 2007, 12:15 AM
we have had this debate 3 times in so many weaks
maybe we sould just have a poll and settle it once and for all :rolleyes:

journeyman Mick
19th February 2007, 12:52 AM
Grahame,
just what makes an "inverter" welder and how similar or dissimilar is it to the technology found in inverter air cons? I gather that instead of a variable transformer to get the required voltage and current electronic jiggery pokery is used instead. Can't see how this would apply to air cons as they don't use transformers (not as the main part of their workings at any rate) Don't know if you can answer this question, but it's been bugging me for a while now.:?

Mick

Grahame Collins
19th February 2007, 07:51 AM
To answer that question is easier than convincing some that the stick welder is the weapon of choice when low cost, simplicity, reliability ease of use and versatility is concerned.

The transformer is a clumsy weighty bit of gear that steps down the input volts and increases amperage from the GPO. In doing so it generates heat. The heat loss is an energy loss which is paid in terms of less than 100% electrical efficiency available at the arc.

The inverter by comparison is light weight,extremely efficient supplying power which is easily managed by the machines' electronics to tailor the welding arc in ways unheard of in transformer machines.

Transformers in air con systems are often now replaced with inverters there because the units are not wasting up to 10% of their primary input as a straight heat loss.

Thats my understanding of it.

Grahame

sinjin
19th February 2007, 11:34 AM
I doubt you can buy any brand of AC/DC TIG for under $4k. And do you really need AC??? If not the price drop by about half or more.

ANTHONY62
19th February 2007, 05:28 PM
I doubt you can buy any brand of AC/DC TIG for under $4k. And do you really need AC??? If not the price drop by about half or more.

I believe you can purchase a name brand AC/DC welder(s) below the amount specified.
I will not endorse a specific brand, however some may be built to reflect Aust. Standards- but that does not guarantee longetivity.
Best advice- let the buyer beware, you get what you pay for.

As for AC, depends what you weld.

sinjin
19th February 2007, 05:34 PM
Anthony you know of AC/DC TIGS for under 4k???

chrisp
19th February 2007, 05:48 PM
Grahame,
just what makes an "inverter" welder and how similar or dissimilar is it to the technology found in inverter air cons?

Mick,

An inverter as used in an air conditioner is basically a variable-speed-drive for the compressor motor. Instead of switching the compressor on and off to control the temperature, the inverter slows the compressor to match the speed required to maintain the desired temperature setting.

Chris

Grahame Collins
19th February 2007, 05:50 PM
You sir are correct! $4k won't buy and AC /DC Tig
.The reference was to counter the notion that some how inverter welders do not have ANY penetration.

The bloke making the enquiry lives in America .How then are we qualified to tell him about Australian 240 volt tools he might not have access to.Remember most of the yanks are wired to 110 volts at 60cycles and think 240 volts is heavy duty.
The man said "I would like a few ideas...just at a beginners cost if you would...no bells and whistles just want it to work ''.

To me a stick welder anda 5" angle grinder is as simple as it gets.
Grahame

ANTHONY62
19th February 2007, 06:53 PM
Goodness me chaps! what are you doing? Stop trying to confuse our new would be welders!

What am I on about ?
A new bloke asks about buying a suitable welder and someone is writing how you can weld cast iron with it. Crikey!

THINK! please - new welder - no previous experience -beginner level machine . Come on Now!
The are several different types of cast iron some not easy to distinguish from each other and some of them not weldable at all .The result of not UNDERSTANDING exactly ,what how,when or why are not going to be good. Truly people,cast iron is really only something for very experienced welders.

As for inverters I cut and pasted this from one of the brand leaders websites with editing.Yes it mentions tig but the power source is interchangable for MMAW (stick)

Insert company blurb
(Today, the next generation of this technology - AC TIG inverter - features three advanced square wave technology capabilities.
First: The AC TIG inverter produces incredibly smooth, stable arcs because the squarewave is driven through the zero point thousands of times faster than a rectifier-based welder. XXXXXX’S inverters are so fast that its built-in, high frequency capabilities are used for arc starting only. They also offer Lift-Arc™ starting capabilities to eliminate the use of high frequency completely, even on AC.

Second: Inverter-based welders extend EN balance control. The ZXZXZXZXZX lets operators fine-tune duration times from 50 percent to 90 percent. Making the EN ( Electrode Negative) portion of cycle last longer achieves greater penetration; narrows the weld bead; increases travel speeds up to 20 percent; may permit using a smaller diameter tungsten to more precisely direct the heat or make a narrower weld bead; and, reduces the size of the etched zone for improved cosmetics )

OK! ITS me talking again
The inverter that most of us could afford will be DC therefore one can use DC -which would be normal 2/3 of heat input arc centered or alternately DC+ which you would use for stainless steel, low hydrogen type electrodes or even cast iron if you were experienced enough.

The perception that the inverter welder per se lacks penetration just is not true .It stems perhaps from the fact that they are much better at joining thin materials (OH god! we are back to that again ) Jokes aside the soft start and ultra controllable arc enables the arc not to explode a hole in thin section of material. I have (inverter)welded 4mm diameter mesh rod to 3mm diameter mesh rod.Try it with a choke stick welder and see how you fare.

Having said all that ,I still believe the humble stick is suitable for the majority of work most DIY blokes can throw at it.
Ok! rant over
let the flames begin

Grahame

Good Afternoon Grahame,

Read your post/s with interest- particularly the edited version of a company blurb you provided. The following questions are worthwhile pondering:

Would you consider that the majority of information provided in the above blurb would be of benefit to a new Welder?

Would you consider that you may have further contributed to the confusion of some of the individuals on this thread?

I concur with the cast-iron issue.

I believe it more beneficial to obtain the information from the MEMS modules.

Regards

ANTHONY62
19th February 2007, 07:03 PM
Anthony you know of AC/DC TIGS for under 4k???

Yes. WELDMASTER 160amp WELDMASTER 200 AMPS

Former was quoted $2000

Latter was quoted around $3200

They have a warranty- do the research and come to your own conclusions.

You can always look on EBAY - NEW from around $1800

As before- let the buyer beware.

Grahame Collins
19th February 2007, 10:46 PM
Hi Anthony
The statement made about inverter penetration was not quite right. I knew it was not right but felt it needed a reference from a manufacturer.
Yep!you're probably right ,It was far more than what the new guys want to hear.

About the mems they are more descriptors than anything else.Its people like WoodButcher and myself that get to turn them in real live lesson units.

The trouble is, Anthony that the threads drift and the answers are often to a couple of different questioners on the same thread.Yes I get caught at times.I'll try an do better.
regards
Grahame

Fossil
20th February 2007, 01:06 PM
Ummmm...... Back on topic,

For the original poster..... If I were you, I would get a decent stick welder, as I did, 30yrs ago. It is a 180amp unit that has done work from indutrial construction etc, to home jobs, and hasn't let me down. When you get proficient in welding, you will be able to weld thinner stuff. 16g steel is not an issue when you get your skills up. Get yourself a set of long leads. I have very good leads..... 7m for earth, and 5 metres for stick.
You can buy a 5kg pack of brand name electrodes for under $20.00 if you go to the right place.

I would go for a WIA brand unit. They run out at about $400.00, but are worth it imo.
I also have a decent oxy/acet setup, which takes care of anything that is just not doable with stick. I can weld alluminium with oxy, as good or better that a lot of TIG work I have seen.
The advantage of setting up with stick, and oxy, is that for the amatuer user, both tools can do way more than one high tech unit can, which invariably costs a lot of loot. You will start with turning out rubbish, whatever unit you decide on anyway. The learning curve isn't that steep, especially these days when there is so much info available on the net.

So to conclude.... If it were me, I would get a decent stick welder for say $550.00 including better leads, a variety of electrodes, a decent mask, some good gloves, and a decent array of clamps... (cheapies will suffice), and then when you get some more loot and experience, get an oxy setup, which will allow you to do so many things that you haven't even thought of doing.. but will think of once you get into it.

The whole setup will cost way less than one new fangled high tech thing, and you can blow sceptics away with your new found skills!

I can here it now.... you can't weld alluminium with a torch!!! :wink:

Ashore
20th February 2007, 01:34 PM
I can here it now.... you can't weld alluminium with a torch!!! :wink:

You are totally correct I can't weld Aluminium with a torch
Have tried , even using the propper al rods , have seen it done and been shown but all to no avail :no: anything else with oxy's fine but Aluminium , it just hates me.

Rgds

simso
20th February 2007, 02:08 PM
Hijacking the thread again, the reason aluminium hates you is because the outer coating of aluminium is in an oxided state, and requires a hiogher temperature to get through than the base material , and when you heat the item to the higher temp the inside ally just flows away. The trick is clean clean and clean wih a stainless steel wire brush to get your oxide of, then get the item to temp use your feeder rod and dont stop if you stop you gotta clean clean and clean again thats ally for you it oxides so fast its incredible.
Hope this helps
Steve

ANTHONY62
20th February 2007, 08:20 PM
Hate to bring religion into a technical subject, but- cleanliness is next to Godliness with aluminium.

We put the lid on cast-iron, really, you don't want to go down the " let's weld aluminium with oxy " path. It's a crappy process and not for the faint hearted.

BTW, unwritten law on oxide formation is approx. 15 minutes, but I suppose it's dependent upon environmental conditions.

Were we discussing arc-welders at some stage ?

Regards

simso
20th February 2007, 09:04 PM
Yes arc welder is the go no issues there whatsoever if your starting out, highly highly recommend it, youll always get penetration. Ally can oxide in under 1/4 second try it with tig do a run take your torch away and then bring it back ahhhhhh its already bloody oxided. In normal conditions atmosphere ect 15 minutes is probably right never timed it.
Steve

sinjin
21st February 2007, 07:16 AM
If the guys are back yard hacks who want to have a go once in a blue moon there better off buying a gassless MIG. I totally agree there a bit of a toy but if there back yard hobbyist is welding non structural frame etc with light wall RHS,CHS,SHS or just plane flats they won't have a problem. If they buy even a good stick welder and use it very infrequently as you know they will have heaps of drama on particularly light wall meaning 2-2.5mm wall section.
IF you spend a bit more you can get pretty decent MIGS. Its the usual thing you pay for what you get....wire feed system on cheaper machines is where it will give you drama in time. Then you get into inverter type stick welders etc and i think that has been covered. As for TIG it is costly to hava a bottle sitting in your shed. But a good AC/DC TIG will weld just about anything up to a reseasonable wall thickness. They have not been designed for heavy wall sections but it will be my next welder.

Bart
28th February 2007, 10:23 PM
hey guys, thought i would join this debate, i dont think the Henrob welder was mentioned here, any thoughts on this for a beginer or in general??

Dooners
2nd March 2007, 08:32 AM
G'day all,

Some great info for the novice, such as myself.
Ive just got a new place with a awesome workshop area, which im just busting to fill. One item that ive been trying to research for a while is an ARC welder.

Have found that for what im going to be doing ( small home projects max about 4-5mm MS ) i should be right with something fairly simple. Was looking in Bunnings at the Neweld and CIG Transarc Compact, ARC welders. The Neweld is a 130amp but looks a little shonky, where the CIG is also 130amp but seems to be much sturdier and durable. Couldn't find any info on the duty cycle of the CIG.

Does anyone have / had one of these or have some advice? Im looking at around the $200 ( Aus ) mark.

Cheers,
Dooners.

BobL
2nd March 2007, 03:40 PM
I spent $80 on a GMC stick welder last year replacing a 25 year old hobby CIG welder I had to finally give back to a BIL. Apart from the short leads I am very happy with it. I don't expect to sit there and weld all day, or even half a day with it. I have made half a dozen WW jigs (including recently a chain saw mill) and bits and pieces welding up to 5mm thick MS with no problems. As primarily a wood worker my priorities are to put the other $100, $200 $500 I could have put into a welder into other things.

You do get what you pay for, but with stick welders you get a lot of useful action for very few $$.

bobsreturn2003
8th March 2007, 12:41 PM
recently bought a dc welder {stick} 140 amps .weighs about 5kgs .thats portable! my other stick welder weighs about 30kgs,bought dc to try out and its great,has power to run 3mm rods ,in all positions .:U as i was welding a shed ,and dragging the other about was tireing , cost more than a simple ac ,but worth it for portability . thats my 10cent worth . cheers bob

bobsreturn2003
8th March 2007, 12:50 PM
have had one for years , they are good for small work . especially welding .save a lot of gas . mainly use oxy portagas,for cutting. cheers bob : .