Sharpening

[sinjin]

Aust. hardwoods as we all know are pretty tough. The only thing i hate after getting my chisels nice and sharp is knowing that if you are going to be laying into some hardwood and the edge of your hand plane blade or chisels are going to look very ordinary.
One of my favourate tools is a 65mm post and beam chisel which i use for just about anything where i can fit it.
Over the last couple of w/ends i had to do some heavy joinery for my partner.
The end of my chisel was very sad to say the least even half way through the job. The surface area is approximately 65mm wide x 12mm . And the tiny chips etc mean there is some serious stone work ahead. So last night after work i started and after 40 minutes i have nearly removed all the tiny nics. I'm thinking as i have more work to do i might try and change the angle of the blade and steepen it a little more. But that is going to be pretty hard work.
My Japanese tools i sharpen by hand for some reason and i really don't want to go down the jig path. My western tools i have no probs at all putting blades in jigs.
So i'm guessing by the time the job is finished and just for this one chisel i will spend maybe 4 hrs and i don't know how many kilometers my arms will travel up and down my stones.
But i think its all worth it.......or so i keep telling myself at any rate.
My partner says.....Why bother???..I look at her and say you wouldn't understand with a rye smile....i guess the truth is i don't understand either.

[Dan]

One of my favourate tools is a 65mm post and beam chisel which i use for just about anything where i can fit it.


Is this monster a Japanese style chisel?

[sinjin]

Yes Dan it is a Japanese chisel, and i'm no expert at all but,They are used mainly by temple builders for large section timbers. In the US and Europe the main group that seems to use this style of chisel are Barn builders who still do tradional joinery.
Even though its 65mm wide and the blade is maybe 6-7mm thick its overal length is maybe 280mm long. Post and beam chisels get upto 400-500 long.
I just tend to use it for lots of things. Even if yr doing a hindge cut out on a door say. Hindge length is around 120mm long so its really easy to get very neat cut out using this chisel and quick. The link below is just one company of many that offer these chisels
http://japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=12797

I'll post some pics at my sharpening good or bad.

[soatoz]

Hello Sinjin!

I loved your post. I think this is a dilemma every honest woodworker goes through!


I'm thinking as i have more work to do i might try and change the angle of the blade and steepen it a little more.

If you are striking this chisel, the angle should be around 28 to 32 degrees. If you are using it as a slick, 24 to 27.

I am getting a handy blade angle checking gauge, introduced by Mr.Usui, very famous plane blacksmith in Kezurou-kai (thin planing contest). I'll be selling it on eBay shortly. Nothing special, but very usuful and cheap.

You must already know this, but just in case! You would have less chip with a Blue steel chisel, so if you are using a Whitel steel chisel you might consider getting a Blue steel one. Blue steel tools go much better with hard timbres, but again much harder to sharpen.

If the chip isn't deeper than say,,, 0.5mm, and if the steel is blue steel, I would leave it and try to get rid of it in a couple of sessions. Blue steel is tenacious enough, so unless you are striking like a mad man (which I do sometimes,,,:- ) there should be no new chipping happening from this chip. But if it's White steel, it will, so need to get rid of it every time...


But that is going to be pretty hard work. My Japanese tools i sharpen by hand for some reason and i really don't want to go down the jig path. My western tools i have no probs at all putting blades in jigs.


Jigs = honing guide? If so, I use honing guide to fix the angle all the time! Many highly skilled Japanese woodworkers do too. The angle is very important to bring the most out of certain tools. That's why above mentioned blacksmith went out of the way making this gauge.

It is easy if you want to fix an acute angle, if you use a guide, because you just polish only the tip. You need to keep using the guide until the whole bevel is flattened, as you use and sharpen it over time. Once the bevel is completely changed to the new angle you can start hand shapening again.

And I use the guide when I am fixing a large chip with very rough stone too. Because I can put more pressure on the blade and not have to worry about keeping the bevel flat. This makes the grinding process much quicker. I keep the guide on until I reach #1000, and after that I switch to hand sharpening and fix the slight roundness (please refer to my sharpening article) of the bevel, and polish it up with finishing stones.

If you are worried about getting the chisel scratched where it is binded by the guide, you can wrap it with a paper and plastic tape. It's better to wrap it with a paper first because even the weakest adhesive would scrape off the black oxide film.


So i'm guessing by the time the job is finished and just for this one chisel i will spend maybe 4 hrs and i don't know how many kilometers my arms will travel up and down my stones.
But i think its all worth it.......or so i keep telling myself at any rate.

You must have a nicely built upper body by now!!:D

I would try checking the angle first, and if that doesn't fix the problem completely, then you might want to try getting a good rough and med grit synthetic stones. You wouldn't believe how much easier the grinding process would be... Some users think that certain stones have too powerful cutting strength, and they don't use them because they fear that you might over grind the precious tool since it is so easy.

I'm pretty sure 4hrs is a bit too long, and there is a way to shorten this upper body training hours. It could be at least be shortened to 1hr max, and if you are used to the process even to 20mins. If all the temple builders were spending couple hours per each tools, they would have to spend over night to resharpen their tools!

I think using the right tool (stones, and honing guide) is the key. If you have never used Japanese Diamond stones or synthetic rough grit stones, you might look for someone who have them, and give it a try. It could be that your stone isn't cutting the steel too much that's causing your sharpening so grueling, and not your fault.

I hope this helps at all:wink:

[sinjin]

Hello Soatoz, and thankyou for your reply. The stones i'm using are, too remove large nics.
220# but as you can imagine you have to check for flatness all the time. Then i go either to my 800 or 1000 to remove the deeper scratchs. Then i go to a 4000# i would like a 3000# but maybe another time. Then 6000# then its either an 8000# or 10,000#. I have to be feeling very keen to go here on the very wide chisel though. I also have a natural stone which i think is in the order of 10,000 plus. Beautiful even just to look at. So in all i have 7 stones clooected over 20 yrs.
As for the Blue and White steels i have read many articles over the years. When i first started buying Japanese chisels over 20 yrs ago. I had really no idea at all. And didn't know anyone else using them either. However blind Fredie could see they were a fantastic tool.
It has been a very slow labourous process learning certain techniques and there is no way even to this day i'm really happy with the way i go about doing everything.
With the chips in this chisels i plan on taking them out all the way. However i'm going to steepen the angle a little and i'm not going to change the angle over the whole blade first up.
As for buying good blue steel blades or even high quality white steel blades in large chisels is quite an investment. And up to this point there was as far as i know no one bringing in these chisels to Aust. Some people like Carbatec have some Tasai chisels and you can imagine the price on average around the 800 plus per chisel.
One thing you maybe able to help me with is you suggested a jig. I'm curious to know what they are using for Japanese chisels. As you can imagine some of the shapes on japanese chisels don't lend themselves very well to western guides.
Also looking forward to some of the saws you mentioned. Once again i have about 5 saws and really they are run of the mills saws. I'm very happy with them and some are easier to use than western saws and some are more difficult. Not being a full time woodworker any more it gets you a little upset with the lack of skills that happens from infrequent use.

PS i have bid on all yr tools on E-bay and have been beaten every time.....good for you not so good for me.
Well i hope soon to out bid some of the very keen bidders. Anyway i wish you well with selling the tools you bring in. I think there is a group of people in Australia with a stronge desire to learn more about the Tool's and techniques of Japanese style woodwork.

[underused]

Sinjin,
I moved onto a diamond plate/stone for getting out chips, or a change of angle.
With the wet stone, I was spending half the time keeping it flat.
I then move onto wet stones for the remainder of the sharpening.
The great thing about the diamond is, it'll stay flat, and you can really get stuck in.
cheers.

[sinjin]

G'day Under, have you found any jigs referred to by Soatoz? for Japanese blades??
Did you go for the Shapton??

[underused]

G' day Sinjin,

Yeah, Ive used this one successfully on Japanese plane blades and chisels. This seems to be the standard hoing guide around these parts, and It works well:2tsup:

I also use the Veritas Mk2 when I can, the roller is much better on this, its wide compared to the one in the picture.
Cheers.

[soatoz]

G' day Sinjin,

Yeah, Ive used this one successfully on Japanese plane blades and chisels. This seems to be the standard hoing guide around these parts, and It works well:2tsup:

I also use the Veritas Mk2 when I can, the roller is much better on this, its wide compared to the one in the picture.
Cheers.

Hi Underused, Sinjin,

The one Underused has posted is the one I recommend as well:)
They are very cheap, about $18? You can get them from almost any tool shops. Mitre10, Total tools,,,

The roller will gradually get ground and smaller, espacially if we use it on a rough grit stones, so I basically stay away from expensive jigs.

These jigs can set both chisels and plane blades (Japanese). It can even set 70mm plane blade, so you can basically use it for any tools, except for very narrow chisels, tiny plane blades, and irregular shaped tools.

[soatoz]

I forgot one more thing.

There is a super high quality honing guide called Grintec K2 made by one of the famous plane maker, called Hatsuhiro. This one has a builtin lever to set the angle, so no need to check the protruding lengths of the blade or anything.

But the roller seem to be made of hard plastic, so I am checking if there are any replacement rollers, and if they are easy to attatch. If they do, I think these are one of the best honing guide that's available on the market, and I will start introducing them soon. But quite expensive.

[soatoz]

As for buying good blue steel blades or even high quality white steel blades in large chisels is quite an investment. And up to this point there was as far as i know no one bringing in these chisels to Aust. Some people like Carbatec have some Tasai chisels and you can imagine the price on average around the 800 plus per chisel.

You can always tell me your budget, and I can introduce the best maker in that price range. I can get most of the tools for wholesale price, so it should be a good deal. If you like the photo and the quote, you can place an order and I can get it for you, but like I've mentioned many times in my various articles, it will take time. Otherwise it's going to be expensive with the air fee added on top.


One thing you maybe able to help me with is you suggested a jig. I'm curious to know what they are using for Japanese chisels. As you can imagine some of the shapes on japanese chisels don't lend themselves very well to western guides.

Thanks Underuser! You have already answer this one for me.
For irregular shaped chisels, like butterfly dovetail chisels, you can make a jig to set the chisel to the jig:D with a very hard wood or brass. But usually these special chisels are smaller in size so I just grind them free handed.


Also looking forward to some of the saws you mentioned. Once again i have about 5 saws and really they are run of the mills saws. I'm very happy with them and some are easier to use than western saws and some are more difficult. Not being a full time woodworker any more it gets you a little upset with the lack of skills that happens from infrequent use.


I wrote that the ones I'm getting are the high end models, but they aren't THAT expensive, I haven't figured out the price yet, but it should be about $60? I want to bring it down to about $55 or $50 but I'm not sure if I can.

But if I can, I'll have to hide the price, for it will be a threat to many shops who carry them outside Japan. My intention of selling them so cheap is not to compete with these shops, but to make it affordable to as many users as possible so that they can try these unbelievable tools. So, I am thinking even if I open a website introducing many tools, there will be no price showing basically. I know this will be losing so many buyers, but anyone who goes out of the way and contact me should be pleasantly surprised (at least I'm hoping.)

These are the only replaceable blade saws on this planet (I think) with 0.3mm thick cut. If you are skilled enough to pull and cut straight, any dovetails can be finished just by sawing, and no need for chiseling. The cut surface will be smooth as if it was finished with a sharp slick chisel.

The traditional saws are much more expensive, at least $100 for common grade, but these are even better. But you need to send it to Japan once in couple years to have them maitenanced. So, only for connoiseur tool fans I suppose. But if you are keen I always have extra of these with me, because I am such a huge fan of these traditional saws, so if you don't mind the price (these ARE expensive) you can ask me for a quote.

These saws are getting rarer each day, and the newly made ones by modern saw maker starts from about $500 (because it is so difficult to make. Can you imagine an aluminium foil thickness blade, that is so hard but tenacious, made without any machine guidance? They even have a slight hollow throughout the blade to reduce the friction! Microscopic work...), so I am buying them whenever someone is selling an old stock.


PS i have bid on all yr tools on E-bay and have been beaten every time.....good for you not so good for me.

So far, it seems that expensive items are won by American and Canadian users. There is already an established market for Japanese tools there, with lots of books on the subject, and many shops, so I guess they know how expensive these tools can be, so they virtually jump at my tools.

For the chisel that I am listing now, the sharpening will be free for the forum member!:wink:


Well i hope soon to out bid some of the very keen bidders. Anyway i wish you well with selling the tools you bring in. I think there is a group of people in Australia with a stronge desire to learn more about the Tool's and techniques of Japanese style woodwork.

Thank you--.

Talk to you again Sinjin:)

[Bully4]

Do Japanese chisels require a secondary bevel???

[soatoz]

Do Japanese chisels require a secondary bevel???

Hi Bully,

What a practical question:)

Basically no for 99.9% of the chisels, or any other tools. You just sharpen them to your desired angle.

But there is one special type of chisel that is quite popular in Japan, which requires secondary beveling. These are the ones that are all steel made using High Speed Steel. Apart from the difference of steel and that it is not laminated, everything else is the same to traditional chisels.

The most famous HSS chisel would be the Skemaru brand from Yoita town in Niigata. The body of the blade is shaped very thin compared to the traditional laminated chisels, the bevel is angled to a very acute angle to increase the bevel surface (otherwise you won't be able to hand sharpen, because of the small flat surface.)

http://www.geocities.com/soatoz/photos/Highsnomiyoko.jpg