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Strungout
11th March 2007, 11:06 AM
Well I am finally getting to a stage where I am thinking about the finish I am going to use on my Stewmac 000 kit.

I am tossing up between trying may hand at french Polish using U-beaut Hard Shelac or go for one of the brushable water based finishes from either Stewmac or LMMI http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?NameProdHeader=KTM+Product+Line+%96+Water+based+Finish
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Finishing_supplies/Finishes_and_solvents/ColorTone_Waterbase_Guitar_Lacquers.html (or any one else)

Any input or comments would be greatly appreciated

kiwigeo
11th March 2007, 08:38 PM
Depends how easy a job you want and how much you enjoy learning as you go. I did my first steel string with KTM water based finish brushwed over a shellac seal coat but all subsequent guitars have been French polished. FP'ing isnt easy but once you get it down pat its worth the effort. Hard Shellac is a bit more durable than conventional shellac but with the latter you've got to be prepared for a bit of patch up work further down the track.

I havent FP'ed with hard Shellac but would be interested to hear how you go. PaulB who posts in here sometimes is worth talking to...hes sprayed hard shellac on one(?) of his guitars and was pleased with the result.

If youve used rosewood or another open pored wood on the back and sides of your guitar its best to grain fill same. You have a few options there. Ive used pumice but its hard yakka. Of late Ive used Z-poxy finishing resin. I put on a few coats diluted 50% with alcohol and sand down to bare wood.

Cheers and good luck

Martin

old_picker
11th March 2007, 08:47 PM
Water base is the way to go. Stewmac colortone is good but spray it.

kiwigeo
12th March 2007, 10:59 AM
Ray,

Have you had dangerous goods shipped to you from Stewmac? I was under the impression they didnt ship such goods overseas or is it just air shipping they wont do?

Cheers Martin

Malibu
12th March 2007, 06:39 PM
Going through the finishing stages on my archtop and I can recommend the U-beaut hard shellac!
I started out with the diggers stuff from the local hardware and switched to u-beaut's and haven't regreted the change.
Martin's right, you'll learn heaps as you go, but it is labour intensive. Most of my hard work has gone into grain filling and sanding back, but it's still a fair amount of work to get the shine happening in the surface. For a one off 'special' instrument, go for the french polish with u-beaut shellac because it seems to be easier to work than the other stuff I've tried.
I'm not sure about spraying it on because I haven't tried it, but it seems to be a good option, one that I might try at a later date on another project.

zenobia
12th March 2007, 11:46 PM
Hey Martin, is this the same Z-poxy you use?
http://www.armsmodelit.com.au/InfoSheets/infozpoxy.htm

Dom

kiwigeo
13th March 2007, 09:48 AM
Dom,

The stuff you need is the finishing resin in the 12 oz pack. One pack should last you ages. Heres where I got mine:

There are a number of ways to apply the stuff as a grain filler:

1. spread on with an old credit card and then sand back to a smooth finish making sure you dont sand through to bare wood. If you do sand through then apply another coat of resin and sand back again. The aim of the exercise is to leave a continuous coat of zpoxy on the wood. In theory the stuff could actually function as a workable finish in itself, not just a grain filler under other finishes.

2 The method I use and IMO alot easier. Dilute Zpoxy 50% with alcohol (I use technical grade meths but normal meths should suffice). Apply to wood with a paper towel. Let it set and then sand back to bare wood. The z poxy will remain in the pores. if the firts coat doesnt do the job then repeat the process. This isnt the "official" method of doing it but IMO filling the grain pores is the aim of the whole exercise and doing it this way achieves this.

If you check out the OLF luthiers forum there are lots of posts on using Zpoxy.

Cheers

zenobia
13th March 2007, 05:43 PM
Thanks Martin, I did not realise that z-poxy was a brand for a bunch of different epoxy products. You know how it is when you are getting started. I want to learn everything at once. But is it the destination that is the goal or the journey?
I have seen the method you used described (perhaps even by you) on the OLF.
Thanks again.
Dom

kiwigeo
13th March 2007, 07:39 PM
Yes I recall adding a few comments to a discussion on Zpoxy. Theres a few tricks to using the stuff and different opinions on how its best used so have a read of the OLF discussions before using it on your guitar. Pumice grain filling is fun but in terms of time spent and end result Im staying with Zpoxy. One problem I found with pumice is that if you work Rosewood too much the alcohol leaches out alot of the colour from the wood.

old_picker
13th March 2007, 11:10 PM
Ray,

Have you had dangerous goods shipped to you from Stewmac? I was under the impression they didnt ship such goods overseas or is it just air shipping they wont do?

Cheers Martin
Wouldn't say colortone waterbased lacquer is dangerous. Pretty inert actually and i have had plnty shipped from stwemac as well as the sanding sealer. oreder on friday and its here on following wred / thurs.

btw i use timbermate woodfiller as a grain filler and its great. getting a mirror surface is a pia at the best of times but with french polish etc i would never have the patience. colortone works real good and as good a shine as i seen on any guitar.:2tsup:

kiwigeo
14th March 2007, 10:38 AM
Thanks for the info Ray. Im trying to get hold of some KTM so will go ahead and order it and see how I go.

Paul B
14th March 2007, 01:38 PM
Hey guys,

I've sprayed hard shellac on a guitar, it worked like a bloody beaut. U-Beaut in fact.

I tried FPing with it but it was taking so bloody long I was getting a sore elbow, I realised that all FP does is put down a thin film, but so does spraying. Worked like a charm just sprayed neat right out of the bottle. Took a hell of a lot less time than FP and the result looks better than what I got with the guitar that was FP'd in the traditional manner (aka Milbourne tutorial).

Timbermate woodfiller kicks ass, none of this waiting overnite for it to cure like with epoxy, and it sands a hell of a lot bloody easier. In fact pore filling can be done and sanded ready for FP or spraying in less than an hour, you can even colour match it to boot.

I reckon if spray guns Hard Shellac and Timbermate Woodfiller were invented before FP and pumice, then nobody would have bloody bothered to invent FP and pumice.

Strungout
15th March 2007, 06:22 AM
Thanks for all your replies.I am thinking about trying may hand at French Polish but I might do a small course first, at the local evening college.


Hey guys,
Timbermate woodfiller kicks ass, none of this waiting overnite for it to cure like with epoxy, and it sands a hell of a lot bloody easier. In fact pore filling can be done and sanded ready for FP or spraying in less than an hour, you can even colour match it to boot.

Paul,

Do you just thin the Timbermate down with water and then wipe it on?

Regards

Greg

kiwigeo
15th March 2007, 09:39 AM
Greg,

If you can get along to some FPing classes then do it...well worth the effort. Keep an open mind though as there are a miriad variations in the way luthiers do their French Polishing (cut of the shellac etc). Ive combined methods from about 5 different sources....its very much a matter of what works for you.

You'll find yourself on a steep learning curve and therell be moments of frustration and despair. The great thing however about shellac is if you make a major stuff up you can go back to square one and start again. Dont ask me how I know this!

Most important of all...enjoy yourself.

Paul B
15th March 2007, 03:17 PM
Thanks for all your replies.I am thinking about trying may hand at French Polish but I might do a small course first, at the local evening college.



Paul,

Do you just thin the Timbermate down with water and then wipe it on?

Regards

Greg


Yeah, thin it out with water then just wipe it on with a rag. A bit thinner than toothpaste will do you. Experiment and see what works best for you.

Strungout
23rd April 2007, 08:30 AM
I have enrolled in the FP course which starts next week- Can't wait!

I Spent some time down in the shed having a "play around " on some scrap indian rosewood.

I put some "Hard Shelac" down,then I used the "Natural" colour Timbermate to fill the grain.

After I sanded it it ,I had white streaks in the grain. I dont want to really change the colour of the wood but, should I have tinted the Timbermate to the Rosewood (or darker) colour?

Sorry if this sounds like a dum question.

zenobia
23rd April 2007, 05:26 PM
Yep, you should use a darker colour grain filler than the wood. That way your eye sees the wood not the filler in the finish.
I have been playing around with hard shellac and so far I really like.
You can mix it with stains to colour it. I have just been using a brush so far on two electrics.
On the first 1 I stained the wood black then I am using a very dark tinted HS over that and when I have a flat consistent coloured base I put straight clear HS over that. Using 1000 wet and dry with soapy water to cut back. The same process for the other guitar but that is a clear finishg on a mahogany body and it look good so far.
It would have saved me a lot of time in sanding back and filling if I had my spray area set up but I think the end result will be the same. I like the lustre the HS gives when fine sanded. Will post some pics when they are done.
Dom

GourmetSaint
7th June 2007, 05:41 PM
If I wanted a cherry red (ala Gibson) on tassy blackwood, how would you go getting the correct colouring and finish with the hard shellac (sprayed)?