Restoration 26years+ old classical.

[bricks]

Hey there people. I've just decided that my greatest project to date will start soon.

This is my classical guitar, twas given to me by an aunt who gave it to me when I was 7 years old, It was my second guitar. My aunt told me a few years ago that the guitar was made in spain and that she paid a man for it in a small market/shop/back alley what ever she places the time of purchase at some where between '75 & '80. It cost bugger all, as it stands now I believe it is still worth bugger all.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u282/bricks_photo/classicalguitar007.jpg

The problem with this guitar is it is starting to crack along the binding edges, has bad wear and tear from playing ( think ten year old metal head and enter sandman), and has a nasty split in the headstock.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u282/bricks_photo/classicalguitarbindingchip.jpg http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u282/bricks_photo/classicalguitarinlayrose.jpg http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u282/bricks_photo/classicalguitar008.jpg

There is no plastic on this guitar at all, the nut is bone from what my un-qualified eyes can tell me and the tuners are also bone I think. The inlay is not one piece but is made up of lots of little tiny matchhead size squares glued into a small rebate in the face of the guitar, the photo kinda shows this, couple have fallen out over the years.

No name brand at all, the latter D is stained into the inside back of the guitar so you can see it through the sound hole if you look.Other than that no markings what so ever.

I suppose the questions im asking here are these,

How do i put the moisture back into the guitar so it doesn't crack, ( i've heard of those humidifers but is it a good idea to do it now the wood is so bad), will it warp my guitar????
How do i fix a small section of binding????
Whats the easiest way to remove the bridge/ nut/ fretts should i have to given I have no Idea what glue is used to hold them on?????
Although I can't remember ever restringing it ( my new electric soon took over), It has steel strings??? They are incredibly thin- possibly .006's even, did clasical guitars come out with steel strings???

PS anything that involves other people touching my guitar will be logistically impossible for me to achieve.

[old_picker]

First of all read this book (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Books,_plans/Building_and_repair:_Guitar,_electric/Guitar_Player_Repair_Guide.html)
a lot of it is electric stuff but there is decent section on excatly what you are planning.
I am sure martin and others will recomend other books as well
Sounds like you have a nice guitar there so carefull how ya go
:2tsup:

[bricks]

cheers ray,
My guitar only has sentimental value, but you are correct, even in its embarassingly poor condition it still has a nice tone and sits nicely on my lap when i try to fiddle around with it.
My main objective here is to prevent it becoming even more derelect and also to breath a bit of new life into it. Contrary to my signature line below I hav'nt actually played this one for over ten years now.
I've just recived some tab and a recording of Francisco Tarrega ( i dont know who he is either) who played classical vibrato figerstyle when he was alive.
This guitar is the reason i got into guiter building to start with

[contrebasse]

methinks humidifying it won't help. Its dry, and the drying causes shrinkage, which is what causes cracks. glue it up nicely and it will probably stay together nicely.

[kiwigeo]

Hi Bricks,

My first response to your queries on repairing the classical would be to take it down to Fretco and let them fix the instrument. The sort of repairs youre talking about require a bit of skill and know how....even with my limited level of experience building Id probably leave such repairs to the experts.

A few comments:

1. cracks normally appear as a result of exposure to low humidity. Humidifying the instrument wont fix the cracks but keeping the guitar away from environments where humidity changes dramatically will prevent further cracking and propagation of the cracks that are already there. My workshop is climate controlled with humidity held at about 40%. The idea is its better that my guitars go from a dry environment to a damper environment....given a choice its better for the wood to swell than contract. Popping one of those dehumidying devices into your case will help.

2. The binding damage isnt clear in the photo but usually you can patch in a piece of binding. Dont do what i saw on one guitar where soneone had just bunged window putty into the gaps. Its a fiddly job and not a job for a beginner

3. Why do you need to remove bridge, nut and frets? if the bridge position is correct and its not damaged then I wouldnt play with it. The nut should be sitting free in the nut slot but they may have glued it. Again unless the nut is damaged dont try and pull it...you could end up pulling off wood with it. If the nut slots are too large/small then infill them with superglue and then recut/file them. The frets...if theyre badly worn and youre considering a refret then again pass it over to the experts....you can end up ripping up your fretboard if youre not careful.

4. If the guitar has steel strings on then TAKE THEM OFF IMMEDIATELY! Sorry to sound panicky but this is the worst thing you can do to a classical. The neck doesnt have a truss rod on a classical and the soundboard bracing isnt designed to withstand the higher tension of steel strings. In the photo the lower three strings look like theyre wound nylon strings. The top three strings should be bare nylon although sometimes the third string might be wound also.

5. Redoing the finish. First you need to establish what sort of finish is on the guitar. get a cotton bud and dab a tiny bit of acetone on an area of the guitar that wont be seen. if it dissolves then its likely youve got a laquer finish. If it doesnt dissolve then try same thing with meths...if it dissolves with same then its shellac. You have a choice on fixing up the existing finish or taking off the old finish and starting again. Again this is best handed over to a guitar repairer.

All the above said if youre feeling brave and want to attempt some of the repairs yourself then Id reccommend heading down to Fretco and asking them for a bit of advice. Like I said above I build as a hobby and repairing isnt my forte. In fact repairing guitars is more difficult than building them from scratch.

Cheers Martin

[bricks]

I have already decided that I will be doing any repairs to this guitar myself, I realise the dangers, and am prepared to take the risk, i think if im carefull and take my time I should be ok.
I built my first guitar as a practice for this one as i didn't want to wreck it as a first go, unfortunately that has put this one on the back burner for a couple of years It wasn't until a friend suggested I visit this site that I even thought of doing it again.

Kiwi, your correct in that the strings ( after closer inspection) appear to be a fibre type inside and are wrapped with metal- the fourth is as you said wrapped as well but the lower two are very thin wire. When I take them off Ill try to untwist one to see exactly what is in there. The strings havn't had any pressure on them for years- I unwound the tuners a fair bit a long time ago- they just sit there, I think they are corroded so badly that they dont really wobble that wel any more. What i was more concerned with is buying new strings And if you can actually get full steel sets for classicals?

I dont nescessarily have to remove the bridge or other pieces but was concerned about the final finish on the front of the guitar if I dont do it, the fretts arn't that bad surprisingly and I think ill be able to polish them up ok considering this guitar wont see much action.

my biggest worry in all this is the crack in the head stock, it goes right through the bottom of one of the string cut outs? fixing that with ultra dry wood and all the dirt that must be in there will be a nightmare.

I am going to compleatly refinish the guitar except i plan on leaving the front face scratches and dings- sort of like a hommage to the old condition- but still with new finish on top of it, has anyone ever attemted that before- any tips?

[contrebasse]

I wouldn't try to strip or refinish it, I think you'll just spoil any character the thing already has.

I'd clean the whole thing first, fix the headstock and binding, make sure it's structurally fine, buy some new classical strings and string it up! Then you can work out if the frets/bridge/nut need work.

Don't worry about how dry the wood is. Dry is good. If you try to humidify it you might make things worse.

That guitar, in my opinion, needs to be brought back to playing condition, not back to new or museum condition!

[bricks]

Thanks contrebasse,
Both you and Kiwi have alot of knowledge on the subject of guitars.

I just need to clarify what I'm wanting from this guitar, and that is to have it in a condition where it will play well, not increasingly become deteriorated, and also Id like it to be veiwable in my collection of guitars. When I move into my new house I'm building a music room where my guitars hopefully will be wall hung and on display 24/7.

Having said that Is there any way to seal the exposed edges without repairing the binding? the kerfing on the inside of the guitar should hold the sides and back/top together, as far as im aware binding is mostly a visual part of the guitar?

Have noticed today while going over the guitar that it has a rather long crack running with the grain in the top face, It hasnt come apart at all but it is there.

Without "fixing" any of the dings, cracks and scratches the guitar as you suggested would keep all of it's character, and perhaps a good wood oil/ polish/ buffing can bring it back to a decent finish without me having to remove and/ or re-apply a finish at all.

I also know what has caused the binding to crack- the crossbrace inside the guitar has popped through the side, as the guitar has shrunk/ crossbrace expanded. Ill try to get some good pics for you guys. Its spinning me out- something has become bigger and/or smaller by at least 3mm

[contrebasse]

I know very little about guitars. What I do know is that you can make things worse if you'e not careful. I don't know how you'd go about fixing a crossbrace that has popped thru the side, at least without taking the top off. You'd need to trim the end and probably reglue the brace itself. Is it worth it? There ight be a cunning way to do it through the sound hole, but it sounds very tricky.

You can probably fix the headstock with some epoxy glue and a pin of some sort. Someone will tell you exactly what.

To fix the long crack you could work some hot hide glue into it and hope that holds it together.

yeah post some pics. that helps diagnose things. have a look inside with a mirror and a good light, that should tell you a lot more.

[kiwigeo]

Hi Bricks,

Can you post some pics of the brace popping through the side? If the brace has penetrated the side then it sounds like some serious surgery is on the cards.

Im still of the opinion that youre biting off a bit more than you can chew with these planned repairs. I agree with Matthew when he says you should just do minimal cosmetic repairs rather than a full re-finish.

Ill post further comments once I see the photos of that brace.

Cheers Martin

[bricks]

here some photo's of the binding,
I was thinking maybe I could cut back the binding from the outside with a tiny dremmel type bit, then wick some glue into the ends of the wood, glue the headstock and the crack in the body, then wax it or some other realetively passive finish?

[contrebasse]

Wait till kiwigeo chimes in, but i reckon - although I can't really see it all that well - you might be able to trim that brace back enough with a very sharp knife through the slit. Or get your hand inside the soundhole and trim it by feel. If the wood is as dry as you say it is, it isn't going to shrink much more and you can glue it back together. The brace is actually a rib-stiffener, as far as i can see, yes?

[bricks]

What's a rib stiffener.

This piece is glued onto the back face of the guitar on the inside and is from one side to the other.

What your saying about removing it from the outside is roughly how i'm planning to do it, what do you guys think about not fixing the bindings?
Just sealing them and polishing the old girl up?

I still have to fix the head stock and body crack tho.

Cheers boys

[kiwigeo]

A bit hard to do repairs by photo but what Id do is do a graft job on the binding. The brace looks like its ok, you've just had the binding fall out where the brace butts against the side. Consequently I wouldnt attempt to trim the end of the brace, it needs to be butting up firmly against the side.

With a really sharp chisel clean out the binding channel and trim the ends of the existing binding at an angle to facilitate a scarf joint. Once the channel is cleaned out and nice and square fit and glue in some suitable binding/purfling using Titebond I (Original) AR glue. Note that where the brace is showing you may be cutting into same with the chisel...work carefully. I have a set of small chisels for such jobs that range in width from 1mm to 5mm. To hold the binding/purfling in while glue sets you can use masking tape or do what I do and use dressmakers bias binding tape. When glue is dry use a cabinet scraper and scrape back binding level with top and sides and finish same.

Cheers Martin

[kiwigeo]

Bricks,

Although Ive posted details on repairing binding/purfling Im still of the opinion that you should leave the binding blemishes as is....theyre not really affecting the structural integrity of the guitar.

Before doing any work on the finish you still need to establish what finish is currently on the guitar. See earlier post on determining this. "polishing the old girl up"....see my previous post on polishes.

Without actually seeing the guitar it seems to me the only fault that is in real need of attention is the crack in the headstock and only if the crack is open and compromising the structural integrity of the headstock. I cant really comment further on this one without seeing some more photos of the crack. What sort of joint has been done on the headstock/neck? Is it a scarf joint or a Vee joint. Has the crack propogated from the neck/headstock joint? Is there a headstock veneer or is the headstock all solid wood?

[kiwigeo]

What's a rib stiffener.

This piece is glued onto the back face of the guitar on the inside and is from one side to the other.



I dont think its a rib stiffening brace..they normally dont extend all way up into top kerfing. Its easy enough to feel around inside the guitar and check if theres a stiffening brace running up the inside of the rib at this location. That said if the brace location is where I think it is from the first photos posted its about parallel with the bridge which is awfully low for a lower harmonic bar on a classical....assuming typical Torres style bracing.

Assuming it is the lower harmonic bar on a classical its function is two fold:

1. Physical strengthening of the top
2. If the top is arched it also serves to maintain the arch. Alot of classical makers (myself included) put in a 25 to 30' radius arch in their tops to add strength and improve sound of the instrument.

[bricks]

Ive finally finished the classical, I reglued the headstock and clamped it together, worked really well, you cant even see the join.

Ive basically cleaned the whole thing with a rag and some 0000 steel wool, this hasn't removed any of the scratches, dings or worn out sections, just removed the surface dirt before i sealed it.

I wicked glue into the binding channels that were exposed, but i have not replaced the missing sections of binding.

I resealed the guitar with a non-staining, clear beeswax polish for wood. Its come up a treat. All the blemishes are still clearly visible, but the guitar now is sealed again and shouldnt continue to deteriorate.

Thanks for your advice, thanks for your input, I'm very pleased with the outcome, and i hav'nt wrecked my guitar.

[contrebasse]

Well done and good on you for exercising restraint!!! Looks like a nice old guitar.

what strings did you put onto it?

[bricks]

I have a set of steel wrapped nylons but havn't put them on yet, i'm planning on letting the guitar sit for a while, put another coat of wax on it to seal it good and then string it.

[kiwigeo]

Hi Bricks,

While youve got the strings off you might as well give the fretboard a clean up. I use a special lemon oil fingerboard cleaner. Next time I duck out to the workshop ill get the product details and post same.

[bricks]

Cheers kiwi;

I've redone the fretts with some steelwool ( they were in surprisingly good nick) and done the fretboard aswel, havn't oiled it- never can find any of that magical lemon oils people always talk about. Instead I use an old oil i have, supposedly for the hammers on a piano, my guitar teacher in school ( years ago) gave it to me and I still have some, although I have no idea what it actually is.

[old_picker]

dunno what it is about lemon oil but it kinda finishes off the final setup like sayin ok thats it for you baby and now out on the road you go :2tsup:

i get it from AMS here in melbourne
any music shop in aust will be able to get you in a bottle
just tell em its in the current ams catalogue pp 200 cat# J6544 or KL5
will set you back around $9 or $10 and gets round 100mil
plenty to do lots a fretboards

[kiwigeo]

Lemon oil = "Goodbye and I don't wanna see you back in my workshop".

I love putting on the lemon oil...it means it's time to start another guitar!