Problems with wood checking/cracking after turning

[Matt88s]

I recently acquired a lathe and have been trying to turn some gearshift knobs for my cars. Actually I have been more than trying to turn some gearshift knobs, I have turned some gearshift knobs, lots of them actually, however without fail within a few days they will have cracked/checked.

Its only the Cocobolo wood knobs that crack though, I've made a few walnut ones and had no problems with them. The Cocobolo I'm using is from Woodcrafters, its your standard wax sealed turning blocks, about 2.5x2.5x12.

So my question is, what is causing this and how can I avoid this?

I'm assuming the problem is the difference in humidity of where the blocks were dried and sealed and the humidity here. I'm guessing upon turning the blocks loose their protective wax seal and start to absorb moisture from the air and crack, or vice versa, they lose moisture and crack, one or another.

However even after applying a coat of polyurethane after finishing, the last knob I made still cracked.

This is really frustrating, there's been some really beautiful wood and knobs that have turned into nothing more than kindling.

Can anyone offer any insight or advice on this?

Cheers!
Matthew

ps, here's a pic of one I made, I really liked this one, it cracked shortly thereafter.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/047-2.jpg

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Two questions: just where are they cracking? How're you mounting them?

If they're cracking on the top, I'd say you're right about the MC. Although I'd have thought the PolyU would've stopped that... you did seal inside the drilled section as well, didn't you?

If they're cracking on the bottom, near the drilled section, the second question carries more import. If you're tapping the wood and screwing that onto the shaft... well... I don't recommend it. Gear shifts warm up over time, which both expands the metal (putting more tension on the knob) and also increases the drying rate of the timber. Not a good thing.

For similar reasons, I won't recommend gluing in tapped metal inserts. My preference is for gluing in a plastic liner to self-tap onto the shaft; it sounds cheap'n'nasty (and looks that way) but it provides some thermal insulation at least.

I've also thought about drilling out the hole oversize, filling it with an epoxy and drilling/tapping that. Should seal the inside as well as the PolyU seals the outside... I think it'd hold up OK with use over time. If not, could still embed a tapped metal fitting w/out worrying about the wood in future ones. Never got around to trying it, as I moved on from gear-shift knobs to other things. :shrug: But it's something I still think about from time to time. :D

[Matt88s]

Two questions: just where are they cracking? How're you mounting them?

If they're cracking on the top, I'd say you're right about the MC. Although I'd have thought the PolyU would've stopped that... you did seal inside the drilled section as well, didn't you?

If they're cracking on the bottom, near the drilled section, the second question carries more import. If you're tapping the wood and screwing that onto the shaft... well... I don't recommend it. Gear shifts warm up over time, which both expands the metal (putting more tension on the knob) and also increases the drying rate of the timber. Not a good thing.

For similar reasons, I won't recommend gluing in tapped metal inserts. My preference is for gluing in a plastic liner to self-tap onto the shaft; it sounds cheap'n'nasty (and looks that way) but it provides some thermal insulation at least.

I've also thought about drilling out the hole oversize, filling it with an epoxy and drilling/tapping that. Should seal the inside as well as the PolyU seals the outside... I think it'd hold up OK with use over time. If not, could still embed a tapped metal fitting w/out worrying about the wood in future ones. Never got around to trying it, as I moved on from gear-shift knobs to other things. :shrug: But it's something I still think about from time to time. :D


They are cracking across the top, it doesn't even seem to follow the grain. I'm drilling them with a 5/8ths wood bit, I bought a chuck with a #2 morse taper shaft so I can drill them on the lath, and then I seal in the hole with a rag dipped in poly. The cars I have are not screw on, they just have a 12mm shaft that you slide it on till its snug. I've been epoxying a plastic bushing inside the hole, it has enough give for the shaft to grip and adds strength to the knob.

One thing, on the poly i've been putting on very light coats as I've been having trouble with it drying properly if I put it on any thicker. I bought a spray can of quick dry poly and it didn't want to dry at all. :(( Thats my kind of luck though. :)


I also noticed on a piece that I had cut into shorter lengths that it is cracking on the ends, I cut them only a couple days ago.

What do you think I should do? Try to seal them better faster, find a different wood supply?? Woodcraft is about the only place in town around here, we used to have a Paxtons here but now the closest one is in Kansas city and thats about a six hour drive. There's also mail order.

Where do they seal these blocks? Are they kiln dried then sealed and shipped out? I'm trying to figure out how they can have such a huge difference in moisture rates....

Edit: If you look closely at the picture you can see that its already starting to crack, you can see little lines where the lights catching.

Another edit, I can't post replies. I can type them and click post and I get taken back to this thread but with the reply I typed not displayed. Am I doing something wrong?

Well, here's my reply. (:


Its not the inside environment of the car, the knobs, when they crack is when they are still inside the shop. Its still in the 60's and 70's around here anyway.

I have been sanding them on the lathe but I don't think thats the problem though as if I cut the blocks and leave the end unsealed and open to the air they will develop cracks within a day or two.


So its just the wood, when its exposed to the air its pulling or loosing moisture somehow.

I may try nukeing a piece in the microwave. :) How long? A minute or two? It'd be a small piece, probably about 2.5x2.5x5".

Incidentally I bought a piece of Australian Myrtle and it cracked also, all the areas where there were little burles cracked or developed splits.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/034-1.jpg

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/033-1.jpg

This is a little off topic but I had also recently bought a slab of walnut. It was recently cut so its green. Its been sealed. How do I go about drying that? I really don't want cracks in it, its got a pretty crotch in it that I was going to make a gunstock out of if it works out. I'm thinking its going to have to sit for about 3-4 years before its ready to use. Since its sealed do I just leave it to air dry like it is?

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/049-1.jpg

Here's the crotch section.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u274/JamesBondsAAB/051-2.jpg

[Zedster]

If it's the fine lines I can see on top of the gearnob, it would appear that there are several running across the top, in my opinion, these crack lines look as though they have been caused by heat.
Cocobolo is a very dense fine grained wood, you say you made some in walnut and they have not cracked, walnut again is a hard wood, but nowhere near as dense as cocobolo, but the grain patterns are more fiberous.
I think you have a problem with heat build up in the car, and it appears that cocobolo wont tolerate that heat build up, where as walnut will.

Dont waste your hard earned on anymore cocobolo for gearnobs, try other woods.

Good luck

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

It sounds to me like you're doing everything right, so you're probably right and the problem is with the wood. :(

I don't know that I'd write off Cocobolo straight away, though... just Cocobolo bought from your current source. Being waxed doesn't mean it has been kiln-dried... nor does it's being called "kiln-dried." I've had allegedly KD'd pen blanks that almost literally sprayed me down on the first few cuts. :(( Bloody rip-off merchants are everywhere. Can't blame your supplier though, they probably bought it on good faith that it was fully cured.

Of course, Zedster could be spot on and it could be simply a bad choice of timber for the job.

Fat lot of help I've been, eh? :rolleyes: :D

[Zedster]

well looking at those cracks again, they remind me very much of cracks that appear on wood that has been sanded on the lathe at to higher speed and with to much pressure for an excessive amount of time, heat cracks,

now unless your sanding your gearnob at too higher speed, and getting a heat build up there, in which case you will see those fine cracks before you install your gearnob, I feel 100% that its down to heat inside the car, just parked in the sun, the heat build up inside a car is massive.

But as Scew say's you appear to be doing everything right, with maybe a doubt on heat build up when sanding, perhaps it is moisture still in the wood, might I suggest you turn another and before applying the finish pop it in the microwave for a few seconds to dry it out completely or am I just talking nonsense, I dont know, but I am sure heat is the problem.

Chris

[soundman]

Are you sure the wood is properly dry?
The interiors of a car is a pretty extreem enviroment.
It might be worthwhile doing a microwave drying test.
Get youself a decent size piece of gearknob material.... at least bug enough to be a significant weight.... over 100 grams is good.
get yourself a set of accurate digital scales..... birthday present for the misses:D :D

give the lump 20 or 30 sec in the microwave and then rest it for half an hour or more...... this goes on for a day or two...... measure and note the weight each time untill it stops dropping weight.
now its dry.

If you dont care about the wood you cen be much more agressive.... but you dont want to burn the wood....... yess it can burn in the microwave if it gets dry and hot enough.

all wood at in an equalised state (wood that has been lying arround) will loose moisture.

All the above mentioned by others are reasonable causes too almos all will be much worse with too much moisture content.

I've had stuff that looks dry crack up after turning and finishing..... its part of the learning process.

cheers

[Ianab]

Thinking about this one....

If you are buying the blanks coated with wax, then it's almost certain that they are NOT kiln dried. If they were properly dry, there would be no need to coat them with wax to slow down the drying :-

The walnut that you have been having good results with is probably properly kiln dried. The Cocobolo is almost certainly not fully dry. Coating it with poly will NOT prevent it drying out more, especially not in a hot dry car. The cracks in your picture actually look like the dreaded end grain checking cause by drying greem wood too fast.

OK.. what can you do about this then?

Like Soundman suggested you can use a microwave to dry small pieces of wood. But if you are prepared to be patient I think slower air drying would be better. Remove the wax from the sides of the blank, but leave it on the end grain. The end grain will naturally dry faster then the sides, and shrink.. then crack. The wax will help control this.
Now get your digital scales and weigh the blank. Stash it on the shelf for a week, then weigh it again. It should be lighter as it's lost moisture. Now repeat, and note the weight each week. When it stops loosing weight it's dry for your environment. You might want to finish the drying off in a hot cupboard or microwave to get the wood 'kiln' dry. But I think you will have much better luck if you get the wood completely dry before putting it in a car.

Cheers

Ian

[Cliff Rogers]

I think you will find that the cracks are radial... from the heart out or where the heart would be if it was still there.

A lot of the hard, 'dry country', western timber here in Aus does that too.
It can be very disappointing to have saved a bit of beautiful timber for about 10 years only to have it crack when you cut it up & use it. :(

The 'dry country' timber seems to have an oil in it that takes years to come out & as it does, the timber shrinks unevenly & cracks from the heart.

I don't know how to solve the problem. :no:

[Farnk]

Hi all, Cliff's post rang a bell with me.
I had similar issues with turning a gear shift knob for an old alfa spider I used to own. (Got sick of the 70's black plastic interior and modified it with a timber glovebox lid, gearknob and centre console insert. Worked well, but offended the purisiti)

I digress..

I used some blackwood form a tree felled on our property and went through about 4 tries before i had one that didn't crack, again radially from the centre.

The final knob was turned from a much larger piece of branchwood, where there was little of the less dense outer material. a couple of coats of polyurethane and the thing was done. AFAIK it's still on the car.

[Mobil Man]

Matt. Try soaking the blanks in a 50/50 solution of dishwashing liquid/water a couple of days & let it dry. Have read a lot of inputs on this and it has seemed to have solved that same problem for a lot of people. I've never tried it but intend on doing so on the next bowl or platter I turn. Might be worth a try. They say it eliminates all cracking-checking & warping. That's some beautiful wood you're using & real nice work you're doing.

[Hickory]

Perhaps you are slinging too many G forces in the curves.:o Perhaps you are using less than dry material? :C My suggestion is to turn to approximate diameter and shape then soak in Denatured Alcohol over night. Next day allow to air dry for a 1/2 hour or so, wrap in brown paper, and weigh it, record the weight. re-weigh in a week and record the difference, when the weight stops dropping it is ready to finish turning. Sand and finish as normal.

As for the finish, Cocobolo, if I remember right is a dense hard wood and oily as well (that is the reason it was often used as Plane totes and knobs as well as knobs on bit Braces. It needs not the Poly for a good finish but rather BLO and buffing to withstand the daily use and white knuckle grasping of a frantic shifter.

Perhaps the exorbant heat from the enclosed Auto (can reach well over 120 in a short time on a sunny day, even more if left closed up longer) and the finish is failing and allowing the wood to escape its last breath of dampness. Is it hot to the touch when you get in?

A lot of older autos had wood shifters as well as steering wheels, I think it might be going back to prep and finish.

[OGYT]

I also, believe that it is due to the Cocobolo not being dry enough. I'd go for the soap solution, also. But I'd leave it in the solution for about two months before I wrapped it to dry. You'd need to take the wax off of it before soaking. I hear mineral spirits (paint thinner) will wash it off.
Luck to you.

[hughie]

http://www.ces.purdue.edu/extmedia/FNR/FNR-155.html

Matt have a look at this site it might help

[Matt88s]

Thanks everyone. :) I think we've narrowed it down to the wood. I think it being wax coated and sold as "turning blocks/wood" threw me. I assumed it was fully dried and ready to use. I guess it was supposed to be but we live in an imperfect world and things are not always what they seem.

I probably need to give Woodcrafters a heads up and let them know their current stock may not be fully cured. They may already know, I'm sure I'm not the only one having this problem, I know for a fact that this was a new shipment that had just came in that past week or so, I just missed getting some tulipwood, I guess maybe I was lucky, beautiful wood but $$. I would have been peaved to have it crack up on me, Cocobolo's not cheap but its not as expensive as that stuff.

I don't know what I'm going to do. I haven't been able to locate another store that carries it locally. I don't like to do mail order, I prefer to pick out my own wood. I know there's a Paxton's in Kansas City, anyone familiar with that store, is it any good? Its about a six hour drive but.....

Unless Woodcrafter's changes their supplier I don't know that I am going to feel all that confident in buying their turning wood again. Once you put a hours of work into projects only to have them ruined it is a major deterrent. I'm not blaming Woodcrafter's though, I'm sure they bought it in good faith, and their supplier might have bought it in good faith too, that doesn't change the past though. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. Guess what I did when the first piece cracked up on me? :)I went right back up there and bought another piece only to have it do the same thing lol. :doh:


Thanks guys, by the way, this is a great forum you've got going here. Friendly members, fast responses, keep up the good work. The only other one as good as this one that I've seen is Saabcentral.com :)

Cheers!
Matthew

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

They may already know, I'm sure I'm not the only one having this problem, I know for a fact that this was a new shipment that had just came in that past week or so, I just missed getting some tulipwood, I guess maybe I was lucky, beautiful wood but $$. I would have been peaved to have it crack up on me, Cocobolo's not cheap but its not as expensive as that stuff.

There's an easy solution... shelve it for a couple of years before you use it. Or if you can't wait, do as I do and buy two pieces; one to play with and the other to go on the shelf.

There're also the "quick dry" methods that have already been mentioned, soaking in LDD/DNA/whatever, nuking in the microwave, etc, etc. I don't really recommend trying these quickies on expensive or hard-to-come-by woods, as I've found that each method is suitable for some woods and not for others... so a bit of experimentation usually needs to be done to find out what is good for what.

Personally I do a lot of nuking, but only on woods I've either a good supply of or I already know it works for. I tend to avoid soaking 'cos, well... let's just say it tends to get on the nose. :wink:

[Matt88s]

Well I went back up to Woodcraft and showed them some pieces I had done and asked their opinion as to why it was cracking like this and if it was something I was doing or the wood and what I could do to keep it from cracking. I was very nice and played the part of the dumb newbie instead of just walking in and chucking cracked knobs at their heads. :U

Their explanation was anything with wax on it is considered green. I was under the impression that since they had this huge display of "Turning blocks" that they were ready for turning. When I go to a wood store and buy wood I expect it to be seasoned. If I wanted to season my own wood why would I go buy it at a store?

So I was told I needed to rough the general shape in, pack it in its own sawdust, put it in a paper bag, and set it on the shelf for a couple weeks and then come back and turn it. This is supposed to slow the drying rate and keep it from cracking as bad, then I finishing turning it and hopefully it won't crack.

Personally, I say this is a ???????? way to do things. :)

I'm not going to spend $$ on wood, jury rig up a way to "season" it, waste my time turning it, and have it still be a crapshoot as to whether it will crack or not.

I didn't tell them that though, I just told them I really didn't have the patience to wait on it to season and was just going to source some kiln dried or better seasoned wood. I wasn't trying to offend them, I understand now what they are selling has to be treated as green wood and I just am not up to that and since they don't sell seasoned wood I'll just have to get it somewhere else, no hard feelings, thats just the way the cards fall.

Is this pretty common practice? Should anything with wax on it be considered green? Should anything labeled as "Turning blocks" be considered green?

Why would one want to buy green turning blocks? Do most turners buy these blocks in advance and shelve them for a few months? I'm confused. :(

Is there a good mail order place to get genuinely seasoned/kiln dried wood from?

I don't mean to sound all impatient and all, I do have wood sitting on the shelf that I expect to sit there for a couple years to season before I use it and all. I'm not that impatient.

It's just when I get the urge to make some shifter knobs for my cars, and I go to a place like Woodcraft and buy a block of some exotic wood, I expect to be able to take that block of wood home and turn a knob out of it and put it on my car right away without having to sit the block of wood on the shelf and wait months/years before I make the knob, I might not have the car a year from now.

This is the stuff I was buying, nowhere on it does it say it should be treated as green wood or seasoned or backed in a bag with its own sawdust and shelved for a few weeks....:U..so you can see how I got confused, I know better now. :2tsup: http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?FamilyID=4105

Cheers! Thanks for all your help.
Matthew

[ciscokid]

Matt,

As a fellow yank and cocobolo lover, I say don't blame the wood. I have been turning pens for the past three months out of a four inch thick slab of cocobolo I have. (Don't ask me how much it cost - the pain still lingers) When a pen is finished you're lucky to have 3/32" of wood left around the brass sleeve. They aren't cracking. Now, snakewood, on the other hand, looks like a million dollars. For a day. :~
Not sure where in the states you are located but I'm in Northern Virginia and you are welcome to send me a PM. I can probably hook you up with some decent cocobolo. Just wondering - I hope you are careful with breathing this stuff because cocobolo is as deadly as it is pretty.
That picture of your shift knob is great! Nice work there and really nice finishing. Now you got me thinking about my ragtop Vette and how nice a flash shifter knob would look in that.
That walnut you got looks very nice. If you are anywhere on the eastern seaboard, I can tell you where to get truckloads of the stuff cheap. Looks just like your picture. Been thinking about doing some .45 grips out of my scraps.

Cisco

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Their explanation was anything with wax on it is considered green. I was under the impression that since they had this huge display of "Turning blocks" that they were ready for turning.

Sadly, a common imistake.

I'd like to point out that it's not 100% true... I mean the wax doesn't miraculously "fall off" when the wood is properly cured. :rolleyes: I buy much of my "exotic" timbers, stuff that doesn't grow locally, from The WoodSmith, who is local to me (here in the wonderful land of Oz! :p) and all of his blanks are waxed. However, he's had most of them in storage for decades and they are seasoned before they go on his shelves.

On the other hand, stores that deal primarily in machinery with only a casual supply of turning stock normally don't bother with that... as soon as the blanks come in, they hit the shelves. Buyer beware.


So I was told I needed to rough the general shape in, pack it in its own sawdust, put it in a paper bag, and set it on the shelf for a couple weeks and then come back and turn it. This is supposed to slow the drying rate and keep it from cracking as bad, then I finishing turning it and hopefully it won't crack.

Personally, I say this is a ???????? way to do things. :)

So do I. But green wood is a lot easier to turn, generally speaking, and where a fully seasoned block of hardwood may take hours to rough out and need several trips to the grinding station, the same block when green may've only taken 15mins with no trips to the grinding station.

It can make that much difference. (Or no diff at all, depending on the wood species. :shrug:)

There are also other reasons to turn green, usually when doing "advanced" turning... but I seriously doubt this any of this is why blanks are commonly sold green. I reckon that's just stores wanting rapid product turnover and aren't prepared to hold it in storage for several years...


Is this pretty common practice? Should anything with wax on it be considered green? Should anything labeled as "Turning blocks" be considered green?

Yes, it's common practice. "Turning Blanks" simply means it's of a size and quality to be suitable for turning. Always check for the magic words "cured" or "seasoned"... and expect to pay a few dollars more.


Is there a good mail order place to get genuinely seasoned/kiln dried wood from?

I can't believe no-one in the US is selling seasoned blanks. They will be "specialty" stores though... so you may have to do some hunting. There definitely are here in Australia, and they do mail order :D but I doubt you'd really want to pay the import/export costs if there's someone over your side of the pond.


It's just when I get the urge to make some shifter knobs for my cars, and I go to a place like Woodcraft and buy a block of some exotic wood, I expect to be able to take that block of wood home and turn a knob out of it and put it on my car right away without having to sit the block of wood on the shelf and wait months/years before I make the knob, I might not have the car a year from now.

Trust me, we all know exactly where you're coming from! :D Especially when we get several blanks of some glorious wood in and know we have to wait for several years before we can do anything with it. :(

That's when I'll microwave a small sample, just to play with and see how it comes out. (Nuking and similar force-drying techniques have been pretty well covered in these forums before...) I won't expect a blank treated this way to stay crack-free and won't turn an "important" piece from it... it's a bit of a "hit or miss" affair, but I've more than a few I've done this way which are still good after several years.

[rsser]

Skew: "I buy much of my "exotic" timbers, stuff that doesn't grow locally, from The WoodSmith, who is local to me (here in the wonderful land of Oz! :p) and all of his blanks are waxed."

Yep, though his are waxed on the side grain, not the end, presumably just to show off the figure.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Skew: "I buy much of my "exotic" timbers, stuff that doesn't grow locally, from The WoodSmith, who is local to me (here in the wonderful land of Oz! :p) and all of his blanks are waxed."

Yep, though his are waxed on the side grain, not the end, presumably just to show off the figure.

I believe that all his timber "out the back" is waxed on the end-grain, but he cuts it down into turning blanks as he unpacks to stock the shelves. I'd love to be able to spend just one day with unfettered rummage rights in his storage area! :D

You're probably right about why he waxes the side grain on the final blanks though.

[rsser]

I believe that all his timber "out the back" is waxed on the end-grain, but he cuts it down into turning blanks as he unpacks to stock the shelves. I'd love to be able to spend just one day with unfettered rummage rights in his storage area! :D


You and me both!

On occasion I've stood there with a project requisite for something large or exotic or odd shaped, hang dog cos there's nothing on the shelves - and we've got to chatting and 'just maybe there's something outside', and there is ;-}

[Frank&Earnest]

Skew, why do you say:
"That's when I'll microwave a small sample, just to play with and see how it comes out. (Nuking and similar force-drying techniques have been pretty well covered in these forums before...) I won't expect a blank treated this way to stay crack-free"

I do not remember reading anywhere that the drying method matters, once the desired level of balance with external moisture levels is achieved (which admittedly could be harder with quick methods). Could you point me to what I have missed?
Thanks
Frank

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I do not remember reading anywhere that the drying method matters, once the desired level of balance with external moisture levels is achieved (which admittedly could be harder with quick methods). Could you point me to what I have missed?

It's nothing I can scientifically prove, more a matter of gut-feeling, personal experience and some sitting down philosophising about "why is it so?"

With slow drying the water is removed by osmosis, with minimal damage to the cell walls. My understanding is that if timber is kiln-dried too quickly, they have all sorts of trouble with it.

The concept behind most of the "soaking" methods (PEG, LDD, DNA) is for that substance to replace the water, again by osmosis. They still take weeks to take effect though, sometimes longer than kiln-drying... their main advantage being the low cost of setup. (Can you afford to buy and run a kiln? :D)

Now microwaving (and, I suspect, freezing... although that's one I've yet to try) is not even remotely the same approach; it's pure brute force that dries in a matter of minutes, not weeks, and there's no subtlety whatsoever about removing the water. It basically explodes the cell walls as it convert their contents to steam. Some timbers really don't take kindly to being nuked (Huon is one that pops to mind) while others dry nicely without any problems.

Pittosperum is one that I frequently nuke, AFAICT it doesn't seriously degrade the timber strength, although it does sometimes subtly change the colour. Several times I've noticed that nuked Pittosperum has lovely creamy swirls through it, almost like cream partially folded through a cake mix, and this has no correspondence to the grain pattern. I've yet to see this effect in any of my naturally dried Pittosperum. :shrug:



Until and unless there's some definitive research done on it, all I can really say "it seems to work for me, but I don't know that I'd use it on an 'important' piece."

[Hickory]

I have to go along with Matt, I prefer Dry (aged) cured wood for turning, although some fellows prefer the easier process, I find it easier to do the job right with dried wood. I'm from the "Old School" where it was what I learned to turn so I am sticking with it.

I do turn some green blanks because I get some logs or chunks of wood and want to try a few projects, but given the choce, I prefer cured.

WoodCraft has gone so Uppie over the years and leans toward catering to those "Wanna Be WWers" that have to have all the $$$$$ tools annd products. They are peddling goods and feeding a load to neophites who will believe anything if the price tag is high enough. I have seen them change over the 30+ years I have been dealing with them. in the past they were good knowledgeable suppliers of wares that WWers needed and where most hardware stores didn't supply. But they have abandoned their beginnings and are after the high dollar. (and getting it)

You mentioned Paxton, I have a friend who used to work for them in the Cincinnatti area, they are good people but they also respect money first.

You mentioned driving some 6 hours to "pick out" some good wood rather than pot luck from mail order. At near $3 per gallon, I would think, even in your SAAB, that would cost considerable more than to order several quanities of wood and select from them. You can alway E-bay those you don't prefer. I have seen several nice pieces on E-bay as well.

MHO as I read, with interest, your posting...

[Frank&Earnest]

(Can you afford to buy and run a kiln? :D)

Yes Skew, and so do you, for one cubic foot at a time...:D

Building a 6x9 shed in the backyard required some "negotiation" as you can imagine, and the quid pro quo was the replacement of a still fully functional kitchen :( ...
Charities do not take this sort of stuff, second hand dealers pay a pittance, so I thought I might as well furnish the shed with lots of cabinets, a microwave... and a fan forced oven!:p

ETA: Fun experimenting, but I have probably more dried timber than time to work it all anyway...