Gunwhale... how is it said?

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

I was watching a doco on the idiot box, about construction of a canoe.

The voice-over kept mentioning what sounded like "gun hails" when referring to what I presume are the gunwhales. Is this the correct pronunciation?

I've always pronounced it "gunnels," (as rhymes with "tunnels") something I picked up from my Grand-dad. I'm pretty sure I've also heard it pronounced as written: "gun whales."

I'm no ol' salt, got cured of that in my teens when we took a duck punt out through the heads at Lakes Entrance. :- But hearing the voice-over on the show irritated me at every mention.

Your thoughts?

(Beside that: what's the correct spelling? There seems to be two schools of thought: gunwale and gunwhale. Or is this yet another clamp/cramp argument? :?)

[Gumby]

Gunnel is how I know it to be pronounced. (30 years sailing)

[jmk89]

"Gunnel" is the pronunciation I know and that is how both the OED and the Macquarie indicate it is to be pronounced.

It might be like the North American pronunciation of "Buoy" - a throwback to the pronunciation of the 17th century when the maritime states of the US and Canada were first settled by the English.

[Jedo_03]

Yeah gunnel

bit like "bosun" derived from boat swain - derived from boat swine !!!

Jedo

[sea dragon]

English is a living language, but some pronunciations have not yet been born.
To avoid the threat of being keel-hauled, maintain "gunnel". Of course, if you are opposed to "Leftenant" or "Sinjin" (for St John), then become a part of the next generation. There will be a problem, though. No-one else will necessarily know what you mean. Also, the skipper will be telling you in ever more graphic terms, possibly invoking issues of your parentage, if you are tardy getting your rear end onto the "gunnel" and get your weight out.

[Cliff Rogers]

Gun'l

[joe greiner]

Pronounced "gunnel." Spelled (or spelt, if you prefer) "gunwale." The wale is a rib or rail; ribs in corduroy cloth are also called wales. The gunwale is the rail where the guns were mounted or shot over, when on the top deck.

I agree with Skew. ("How It's Made" wasn't it?) That nonsense about "gun hales" was a banana peel for me too. Great show and series, BTW.

Yep. Language is a work in progress. "Spalted" is my favourite. Started as "spoiled;" then "spoilt;" then "spalt." Then shifted tense and past tense became "spalted." Similar to "parcel" becoming "passel."

Joe

[jmk89]

Now then, what about the seats in a boat - thwarts.

I call 'em "thorts", but recently heard "thewarts".:oo:

Any views on this (after which we will move onto leeward, forecastle, rowlocks - can't sailors spell anything the way that it is said???:C )

[Cliff Rogers]

Then there is Head-sails & check out this list of terms....
where did they get them from????? :?

Athwart hawse
Futtock-shrouds
Gammon the bowsprit
Garboard streak
Gimbleting
Gybing
Hawse-holes
Kentledge
Lanyards of the shrouds
Mizen-peek
Monkey-poop
Monkey-pump
Nun-buoy
Oakum
Orlop
To pawl the capstain
Pooping
Spanish burton-windlass
Swift the capstern bars
Uvrou

[joe greiner]

Google [lampoon rigging ship] for a satirical approach. All phony, but sound genuine (almost).

Joe

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

("How It's Made" wasn't it?) That nonsense about "gun hales" was a banana peel for me too.

That was the one.

I guess it just goes to show that sailors weren't chosen for their literacy. Or their communication skills, for that matter. :D

[Jedo_03]

That was the one.

I guess it just goes to show that sailors weren't chosen for their literacy. Or their communication skills, for that matter. :D

Oh I wouldn't be as bold as saying that. Twas a sailor discovered this Gondwanaland of ours. . .
Languages are constantly changing. . . Try reading Chaucer for instance, and that's only 400 years old. Even Shakespeare. . .
Remember that old wooden ships were very different to what we see today. . . Because they had gallumping sails, there was a gantry built on the side of the ship so the 2nd mate could fix the ships position with his sextant. Hence STAR-BOARD. Custom was to always build this on the right side of the ship. As a consequence, the ship could only tie up to the jetty on the opposite side - hence PORT-SIDE...
While I'm on. . . origin of the word "POSH" - as in rich and posh
The english used to ship out to India - them as could afford it chose the coolest side of the ship to travel - Port side going out - starboard side coming back. The porters used to write this on the passenger's luggage so they knew to change over.. used to write Port-Out/Starboard Home and it got shortened to POSH. . .
Jedo

[Ashore]

Remember that old wooden ships were very different to what we see today. . . Because they had gallumping sails, there was a gantry built on the side of the ship so the 2nd mate could fix the ships position with his sextant. Hence STAR-BOARD. Custom was to always build this on the right side of the ship. As a consequence, the ship could only tie up to the jetty on the opposite side - hence PORT-SIDE...

An interesting twist on the origin of star board , havent heard that one before. The story that usually goes around is that origionally vessels in the med used a streering oar and on the right side of the vessel was a star board, a board with the stars of the heavens painted on it so that they could steer by night, and became the star board side , as your vision was blocked when berthing you would dock the vessel on the left or port side,
In the days of sailing ships only the captian or pilot were allowed to take star sights use a sextant or other navigation instrument , or take a record of the ships position and this was to deter mutiny and was punashable in the british navy until early into the 1900's .


Rgds

[Iain]

Then of course in latter day terms there was POSH, reserved for the wealthy on cruise ships Port Out Starboard Home, supposedly more comfortable as the sun struck the opposite side of the vessel and the peasants would suffer the heat.
And what is the origin of sheet in sailboats (I have heard some refer to sails as sheets, peasants).
And when I had my own yacht I had a mistress, even when my wife was with me:D :D
Back to the original question, I concur with the phonetic 'gunnell' which runs between the pointy end and the flat end:wink:

[joe greiner]

Of course the dorks refer to sails as sheets; they sorta look like sheets. I can't find my Chapman's, and I'm not a sailor anyway; but only use I've seen is in the sheet bend knot. And don't you dare call a line a "rope."

Back to the wales: On tied-back retaining walls and deep foundation holes, the wall consists of driven soldier piles (H-piles), with timber lagging spanning between the bosoms (that's what they're called) of the H-piles, and the soldier piles restrained by horizontal beams carrying anchors drilled into the dirt. The horizontal beams are called "wales." Usually mispronounced as "walers." Similar to footings called "footers." So sailors don't have a monopoly on illiteracy.

Joe

[toddles]

Oh I wouldn't be as bold as saying that. Twas a sailor discovered this Gondwanaland of ours. . .
Yeah... in a canoe.

[black1]

As a consequence, the ship could only tie up to the jetty on the opposite side - hence PORT-SIDE...
Jedo

i always thought it was called larboard until the 19th century. dont know when it changed but that was what i read somewhere:cool:

edit: just had a look at wiki and it states that port, "The term was not officially adopted by the Royal Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Navy) until 1844"
and that whalers used it until 1850.
wikipeadia says : "The gunwale, (IPA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA) /gʌnəl/ ) pronounced "gunnel" to rhyme with "tunnel", is a nautical term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_nautical_terms) describing the top edge of the side of a boat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boat)."
it also says:"The word starboard comes from Old English (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_language) steorbord, literally meaning the side on which the ship is steered. The old English term steorbord descends from the Old Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse_language) words stýri meaning “rudder” and borð meaning “side of a ship”.

[Boatmik]

An interesting twist on the origin of star board , havent heard that one before. The story that usually goes around is that origionally vessels in the med used a streering oar and on the right side of the vessel was a star board, a board with the stars of the heavens painted on it so that they could steer by night, and became the star board side , as your vision was blocked when berthing you would dock the vessel on the left or port side,
In the days of sailing ships only the captian or pilot were allowed to take star sights use a sextant or other navigation instrument , or take a record of the ships position and this was to deter mutiny and was punashable in the british navy until early into the 1900's .


Rgds

My exGF did a huge amount of research on Port and Starboard. The steerboard seems to be the correct original version.

Port was originally "larboard" - from what I don't know - but it got ditched because it sounds a lot like starboard so led to confusion.

So port it became. Why? Because if your steerboard was on the starboard side it could be broken if you moored up to a wharf on the starboard side. So all boats came alongside to shore on their "Port" side.

[journeyman Mick]

In Dutch it's "Stuurbord" (Steerboard) and "Bakbord". Don't know what the latter means, I'll have to ask dad (Dutch merchant marine)
Also "boom" in Dutch means tree and "vang" means catch, so I reckon that's where we got "boomvang" from, after all, the Dutch gave English "Yacht" (Jacht) and Skipper (Schipper)

Mick

[OtakiriLad]

I thought that 'starboard' was derived from 'steering board' or the side the board used to steer the ship was lashed to. The other side was 'larboard' shortened from 'landing board' or the side that the board (aka gangplank) for getting ashore was usually slung from. The term portside came into existence to try and avoid confusion in times of storms at sea when trying to distinguish between the shouted commands for starboard and larboard.

[Tas_Dean]

From all I've read on naval/mariners history, Starboard originates from "steer board" as already described.

Larboard is thought to have originated from "Load Board", i.e the gangway or loading board, which was always on the port side as the steer board got in the way of docking!

Cheers, Dean

[Poloris]

Don't know where larboard or starboard came from however.
When a right hand prop is kicked astern a vessels bow will move to starboard and its the stern to port.
This motion and the obvious braking effect meant a good ship handler could approach a wharf at a sharp angle, stop and pull the ship up parallel to the wharf in controlled manner.
So once screw propellers became the norm in the late nineteenth century anyone with a choise moored portside to.
When port is always on that side, would you call it larboard anymore?

[Rick_Tatum]

....being called a something "futtock" whilst being waved at with a single finger :(. But this was years ago...my memory is fuzzy :wink:


Then there is Head-sails & check out this list of terms....
where did they get them from????? :?

Athwart hawse
Futtock-shrouds
Gammon the bowsprit
Garboard streak
Gimbleting
Gybing
Hawse-holes
Kentledge
Lanyards of the shrouds
Mizen-peek
Monkey-poop
Monkey-pump
Nun-buoy
Oakum
Orlop
To pawl the capstain
Pooping
Spanish burton-windlass
Swift the capstern bars
Uvrou

[Iain]

Then there is Head-sails & check out this list of terms....
where did they get them from????? :?



Hawse-holes
An Equine term for the holes in our paddocks that they dig to keep out of the wind:rolleyes:


Now buckle your swashes Cliff, September is not far away:D :D :D

[Cliff Rogers]

Now buckle your swashes Cliff, September is not far away:D :D :D
What happens in September? :?

[Iain]

http://www.talklikeapirate.com/piratehome.html

[Cliff Rogers]

Arrh.... Oi thought that wois earlier in the year.

[Capt. Zero]

And here I am 17 yrs. masters pilot and haven't heard but a 1/4 of the terms used. Here goes on some of them, at least according to the US Coast Guard (which seems to change everytime I've had to test anew:C ).
Nun bouy- named due to the shape of said bouy. the color always red and seen on the right(starboard) side inbound in a channel.
Garboard strake- any channel running the length of a vessel. ie keel cooler ect.
Pommel the capstan-antique term for loading a capstan with stakes in order to draw in line (a capstan refers to a type of winch, usually on the bow of a vessel drawing lines/cable with a horizontal rather than vertical drum. Prior to machine power, a capstan had a four holes around the edge of the top at 90 deg. you could place long stakes in to turn it with and draw the line tight.)
Starboard - place on old vessel rudder arm was placed so steersman would have more leverage, most people being right handed, and would require always docking on the opposite side hence port side.
Abaft the beam- the beam being amidships(middle) this term refers to anything aft of this spot.

Now here's a fun one; anyone know the difference between a boat and a ship? Understand I've seen boats over 10,000 tons and a ship less than 3 meters long.





"From sea to shining sea. All the way from Bangor to mighty Maine."

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Now here's a fun one; anyone know the difference between a boat and a ship? Understand I've seen boats over 10,000 tons and a ship less than 3 meters long.

A buoy shaped like a Nun? :rotfl: Which end? And it's red? Hardly surprising; I'd be angry if I'd been dumped overboard, too!

I'd have said that a boat is something small enough to be carried aboard another vessel (ie. a ship :D) but 10,000 tons would come close to ruling that definition out.

[joe greiner]

Now here's a fun one; anyone know the difference between a boat and a ship? Understand I've seen boats over 10,000 tons and a ship less than 3 meters long.

Had a discussion of just this question many years ago when one of my colleagues in engineering consultancy was a naval architect. IIRC, a boat can be carried aboard another vessel, like Skew said; I think one distinction of a ship was that it could be lived aboard, but the definition was weak. Might be that the ship was the vessel carrying the boat. Still and all, one could live aboard a "ship" less than 3 meters long.

The 10,000-ton boat is a trick question. It's a submarine. Original submarines were tiny vessels launched from a ship, and the name stuck. Consider the Electric "Boat" Division of General Dynamics Corp - major builder of huge subs. Part of the consultancy I mentioned was for the Trident base on Hood Canal WA USA. I don't remember the tonnage, but the "boat" was bigggg: about 50ft (15m) diameter/beam x over 600ft (~185m) long.

[Seems I had a memory fade after about 25 years. (Imagine that!) Google says 42ft x 560ft. And as for the tonnage, allowing 500ft for the rounded ends, I calculate about 20,000 LT displacement.]

Only place I've seen a capstan with a horizontal drum was on a drop hammer for soil sampling. Not sure why, but it sounds somewhat dangerous for vessel hauling, and I see no advantage over a vertical drum. Powered capstans are dandy for moving heavy stuff; ships/boats in drydock, railroad cars, etc.

Joe

[Capt. Zero]

No not a trick question. According to Bowdich Navigation(the mariners bible and the repository of info for the USCG) a ship is any vessel that has at least two masts aft of the beam. The two vessels I mentioned were a small vessel called Morning Sun operated by Monsanto at their Chocolate bayou facility used to vacuum oil spills, tecnically a ship with the two masts, but mesuring 12 feet (slightly more than three meters). As for extremely large boats, I had not even thought of subs which certainly are boats. However, there are vessels that are technically boats but on the surface appear to be ships. Often 250-300 meters long. On close inspection they are actually tugs that have intergrated unit type barges built onto them and float separate from the boat. They can never break out from this barge and float alone. I am not really sure how they are fastened as I am strictly Inland Waters/Western Rivers pilot, but I have ridden next to them and they look like a ship with a groove running up the hull in front of the superstructure. Will see if I can find a photo and post it.
As to a nun buoy, it is shaped like a cone, while it is always on the red side of a channel its called a nun because one can't identify the color in different lighting conditions. Why they don't call greens barrels(their shape) I don't know.
After thinking about the capstan issue, I realize that there are capstans engaged in other industries with vertical drums (oil field drilling for one), I found myself parroting the answer required on my general nav test:B . Oops

[Capt. Zero]

Also wanted to mention some rather well known ships, yet quite small.
Santa Maria - 31ft. (roughly 8.5 meters)
Nina - 26ft.
Pinta-23 ft.
Golden Hind-39ft.

I once had a replica, the Santa Maria III, alongside the vessel you see in my avatar, M/V Walter E. Blessy. I was towing her from the bayside docks at Corpus Christi to the city docks due to rough weather. She looked like a toy, her main mast barely cleared the 2nd deck railing and length from about the edge of the house on the bow and almost to the engine room door (seen just below the main stack in photo). Hard to believe she crewed 32 to 36 men.

[Ashore]

The ship or boat question has been around a long time and the fact that there are now semi-submersible vessels that a ship can be transported on could cause some confusion . These are ships that have a high for and aft section and a flat barge like section in the center , they are sunk leaving only the for and aft sections above the water line and a ship is positioned above the center section and the vessel is re-floated lifting the ship with it, (though in truth they mostly transport dredges, floating cranes etc, ) Thus the question then raised is, "When is a Ship not a Ship ?":doh:

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Or when is a boat not a boat? When it's a-board... [groan]

Not long ago I was watching Discovery Channel (I think) and they were discussing a new type of exploratory oil-drilling rig. It was basically a BIG catamaran which they sailed to the site, pumped the hulls full of water until they were floating some 20' under water and then commenced drilling. Apparently it reduces the effect of wave motion and with suitable station-keeping motors avoids the need for pylons or other moorings.

Would this be considered a ship? A barge? A highly technical bouy? ??

[joe greiner]

I don't have Bowdich, and my Chapman's is God knows where. It seems that definition relates to the amount of power available. Still and all, the Capt. refers to his licensure testing. That's no place for a philosophical discussion. If Sister Mary Whatsis says 2,479 angels can dance on the head of a pin, that's the answer for the test.

The language is still a work in progress, as we've discussed before. Google of [ship boat] reveals a ton of distinctions. Crew size, etc.

I don't think a supertanker has any masts abaft the beam, except maybe radio antennas. I sure can't think of it as a boat, no matter how hard I try.

A vessel like the one Ashore mentions was used to transport the USS Cole from Yemen to Pascagoula MS USA for full repairs. Norwegian, I think. The Norsemen also have the largest floating cranes; one of them was used for erection of the Halifax bridge in Nova Scotia - each piece was precast concrete from CL span to CL span, and perched atop the pier. Piers were also precast single pieces too, IIRC.

Joe

[bulldog]

Would this be considered a ship? A barge? A highly technical bouy? ??

Just to open a can of worms, it would be considered a ship as it is powered by its own propulsion and would be required by international maritime law to display navigation lights at night and be operated by a "competent" crew, a barge is towed and has no means of providing its own propulsion.

And my 2c it is pronounced gunool.

[Ashore]

When is a ship not a ship ? After some checking came up with two answers
"When a ship is in a Dry Dock it is not considered a ship"
and for skew "when it's a float" :D

[Boatmik]

Hard to believe she crewed 32 to 36 men.

And God knows how many chickens.

(sorry, just ignore me)

[Gra]

Or when is a boat not a boat? When it's a-board... [groan]

Not long ago I was watching Discovery Channel (I think) and they were discussing a new type of exploratory oil-drilling rig. It was basically a BIG catamaran which they sailed to the site, pumped the hulls full of water until they were floating some 20' under water and then commenced drilling. Apparently it reduces the effect of wave motion and with suitable station-keeping motors avoids the need for pylons or other moorings.

Would this be considered a ship? A barge? A highly technical bouy? ??

Bucky fuller suggested something like this for residential development, basically a huge ship that had water filled compartments XXX depth down under the wave motion to keep it steady, will have to look into my books to find the relevant details, but was thinking of it as a retirement community