Chinese Furniture and Joinery

[thumbsucker]

Today I went inspiration hunting by visiting an antique Chinese / Japanese Furniture store here in Melbourne. The interesting thing for me was the style, as well as the fit and finish of the antiques, most of which date from the 18th century.

The first thing that struck me was how organic most of the pieces where and how they draw you in to touch, use and explore the furniture, I really felt the humanity of these pieces.

I was hard pressed to find a single square edge or angle on anything. The timber was often rustic and weathered. Often using Scribe-fit Joinery (http://www.rothteien.com/articles/scribefit.htm). Their was not a flat surface to be found, table tops undulated between individual boards. Often surfaces could be seen to have major depressions, and hollows, that seem to have been present in the timber when first constructed.

Another interesting observation was in the construction of the carcass and the use of wedged through mortise and tenon joints, that would show the carcasses faces. The existence of end grain protruding from virtually all faces of cabinets created a very nice shift in texture from long to end grain.

Now this furniture was unlike the upper class replicas you find in Pharan and the High street antique dealers. It had a very provincial feeling of rural china.

The question is this rustic / ruff / split furniture the consequence of circumstance and design. Or is it simple the result of 200 years of use and possible abuse.

The other interesting thing is the joinery, while some pieces had the most complex joints I have seen. Their was also a suppressing level of crude simplicity to things like draws. It reminded me of the comment made by Adam Cherubini 17th c work is pretty crude. I don’t think I was the only one struggling to admire the designs, joinery, and surface work. Despite the value in seeing other furniture styles, other solutions to similar problems, there was a refreshing “just do it” aspect to the demonstrations that I found encouraging. The drawer front is attached to this side hung drawer with a single dovetail. The bottom is made up of spare clapboards or simple riven billets. (http://www.popularwoodworking.com/blog3/Williamsburg+Conference+Trip+Report.aspx)

The buddhist in me sees the beauty of imperfection. To me it raises the question about the absolutist empiricist approach of modern furniture, with its 10,000 of an inch precision. Do we lose our humanity to the machine.

I also was fascinated with the Pinned Box Joints the chinese use, the feeling of running my finger along the joint, feeling the pins. Felling the variance in texture.

Their was much more wonders I discovered, however it has enthused in me the desire to learn more about Chinese furniture. This is were I need a little help. I did a little google but found nothing bar a few pages with the same content word for word. The rest was just retail stores.

So can anyone recommend me a site on Chinese furniture or even a book that would show design, history, plans and joinery? That would get me building.

[bsrlee]

OOoohh - what you just said :p First, do a search on Amazon.com under 'Chinese Furniture' then open your wallet & say after me 'Help Yourself' :D :D :D There are a few 'Dover' paper backs of old books that are good - ETC Wagner is one author IIRC. Then things rapidly run into the $100's - been there, still there.

[Carry Pine]

There was a very interesting article in Wood review about Chinese woodworkers in Australia in the 19th Century. I became interested because my son bught an old dresser that had a mark inside one of the drawers. They used hand tools very much like the ones that are available from HNT Gordon etc. (which are a pleasure to use by the way).
Will look up the reference later.
regards

CP

[zenwood]

Thanks for that excellent post thumbsucker. Many of the points you raised resonated with me, trying as I am to realise the 'zen' of wood. There is indeed a beauty in imperfection -- the imperfection of letting nature be itself, while adapting it to our purposes. There is certainly much imperfection in my pieces...sometimes all I see is a composition of 'stuff-ups': yet I can be satisfied, while yearning for higher achievement.

I'd say that you don't have to delve into chinese or japanese designs to explore, as you say, the 'buddhist' beauty of woodwork (interesting as these cultures are). Pick a project you need for the house, and take a 'just-do-it' approach. The piece will then reflect who you are and the influences from your particular surroundings. As you become steeped in oriental inlfuences, these will begin to show in your work.

Can you post an example of the chinese pinned box joint you are referring to?

[fletty]

aaah Thumbsucker, the questions you have asked!
I lived in China for a couple of years and only came back 2 weeks ago from another visit. I have a house full of Chinese furniture and everything I make for us has to fit in. I can recommend the book by Gustav Ecke, I can't remember the title but will post tonight, and it illustrates just how all of the joinery fits together. I am currently repairing a beautiful old Chinese table ($160 in King St Newtown, Sydney) and without the book I would not have been able to work out that the whole thing is held together by 8 rough, tiny dowels .... just beautiful.
There is so much to learn!
Fletty

[thumbsucker]

It looks like I am not alone in my appreciation.

I totally agree that
I see is a composition of 'stuff-ups' and that wood has its own character its own imperfections in grain, texture, shape and form, and it is that which very much makes it such a beautiful medium.

I think I really like the joints, however its also the proportion and scale. The dimension of the pieces. While the impression is of fine strong lines, the furniture has an amazing level of weight and rigidity for pieces of such delicate appearance.


Can you post an example of the chinese pinned box joint you are referring to? Please see the two photos attached of a pin box joint. Its almost a cross between a finger and dowel joint and even a touch of dovetail.

I did a search on Amazon and came across Chinese Domestic Furniture in Photographs and Measured Drawings (Dover Books on Furniture) by Gustav Ecke (Author) (http://www.amazon.com/Domestic-Furniture-Photographs-Measured-Drawings/dp/0486251713/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3/103-3406698-5299041?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176331359&sr=1-3) - which is well reviewed.

I also found Greene and Greene: Masterworks by Bruce Smith (http://www.amazon.com/Greene-Masterworks-Bruce-Smith/dp/0811818780/ref=sr_1_13/103-3406698-5299041?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176331505&sr=1-13) As Green and Green drew heavily from Chinese Furniture I think it may be of interest.

Their are few books as well but I need to have a closer look.

Their is actually some information on the Chinese Influence on Australian furniture making especially in Victoria, as many Chinese who came to work the gold field in Victoria where from Souther China and after the gold ran out many turned to furniture making as a trade because of their experience in Southern China as furniture makers (southern China was a major production centre for all of China). It was also interesting to read how the Chinese were not allowed to join the Furniture Union and how they were discriminated against by law.

Carry Pine - the said
old dresser that had a mark inside one of the drawers - This actually stems from the discrimination laws which stated that any shop that had more then x amount of Chinese labour in it had to mark its furniture with just such a sticker. This backfired eventually as these stickers chinese items came to be seen as better made. Thus increasing the items value.

I will dig up the info again.

Yes the HNT Gordon planes look more and more interesting the more I work in Australian Timbers.

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Undulations, depressions and hollows, not a flat surface to be seen...?

It would appear I've been making Chinese furniture for years without knowing it. Just not with so much of the "Zen." :rolleyes:

The pinned box joint is something I came across a few years back, used on an old tool chest of unknown heritage, and I experimented with it for a while before settling on my own... "Shaker/Colonial style" of doing things... and promptly forgetting about it. May have to reconsider now that you've reminded me of it; 'tis a simple way of adding a bit of decoration now that I'm moving away from austere.

[journeyman Mick]

..................This actually stems from the discrimination laws which stated that any shop that had more then x amount of Chinese labour in it had to mark its furniture with just such a sticker. This backfired eventually as these stickers chinese items came to be seen as better made. Thus increasing the items value..............

Makes sense, I've got an old silky oak side board that I restored which has stamped in ink on the back of one of the drawers "made with european labour". Beautiful timber, but really badly built piece, it was splitting apart as long grain pieces had been fixed across end grain

Mick

[thumbsucker]

Makes sense, I've got an old silky oak side board that I restored which has stamped in ink on the back of one of the drawers "made with european labour". Beautiful timber, but really badly built piece, it was splitting apart as long grain pieces had been fixed across end grain

Mick

Here is the furniture making industry (http://www.chia.chinesemuseum.com.au/biogs/CH00016b.htm) article from the Chinese museum.

[journeyman Mick]

Here is the furniture making industry (http://www.chia.chinesemuseum.com.au/biogs/CH00016b.htm) article from the Chinese museum.


Thanks for that, interesting reading. I was told that the stamp on mine about Eurpean Labour dated it to the 1930's, but this article seems to suggest otherwise. It does have machine cut dovetails on the drawers though, don't know if that helps date it more accurately.

Mick

[AlexS]

Where abouts in Melb was the shop Thumbsucker? Was it the one in Clifton Hill? I'd like to have a look next time I'm in Melbourne. Usually go down there for the fringe furniture exhibition.

[Lignum]

I can recommend the book by Gustav Ecke, I can't remember the title but will post tonight, and it illustrates just how all of the joinery fits together.


Fletty its called " Chineese Domestic Furniture" and if anyone has Fine Woodworking Issue 175, they will read a review of it. A beautifull and inspiring book.

The person i most admire is James Krenov and his style of furniture making has deep Chineese roots. His furniture is almost perfect in its imperfection.

Great topic Thumb :2tsup:

[Neil Lamens]

Hey Thumbsucker:

I really enjoyed your post and the thought that others interspersed.

THANKS..........that was a good read:2tsup: ..........Neil

[thumbsucker]

Where abouts in Melb was the shop Thumbsucker? Was it the one in Clifton Hill? I'd like to have a look next time I'm in Melbourne. Usually go down there for the fringe furniture exhibition.

It is the one in the little trendy strip of Northcote on high street, between Westgarth and Candy Street.

I do not know of a Chinese furniture shop in Clifton Hill. Maybe you are thinking of the Northcote one, right next to each other.


The person i most admire is James Krenov and his style of furniture making has deep Chinese roots. His furniture is almost perfect in its imperfection. Ditto Lignum

[thumbsucker]

To continue the discussion I made more observations about some of the design elements used. I am not sure if these design elements are common outside china but I have never seen them before so it maybe of interest.

One of the draws I pulled out had an interesting feature, the side face draws were about 25% longer then the draw bottom. This meant that you could pull the draw all the way out to see all of the draw content without risking tipping the draw out as you dig around.

Another interesting find was the draw bottoms, one piece had draw bottoms unlike any I had ever seen. The draw bottom was recessed into a groove. The trick was that the draw bottom was mould with a type of Base Cap moulding (http://www.sfvictoriana.com/product.php?title=22-13&pid=300) This allows the draw bottom to be heavy and strong and it also wedges it in tightly into the groves. It also gave the draw a feeling of being substantial.

Finally were the locks - reminding me of the Krenov latch. The feeling of wood against wood is nice. You can see an example of it Here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0764324780/sr=1-7/qid=1176331359/ref=dp_image_0/103-3406698-5299041?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books&qid=1176331359&sr=1-7). Its so simple but it works. Just assemble a self wedging bar inside the cabinet handles.

[thumbsucker]

Can anyone tell me about the wood, the Japanese seems to prefer soft woods and the chinese seems to prefer hard wood. Their was a Japanese Chest made from Kiri or the paulownia tree wood. Had a lovely smell.

Interestingly an Australian supplier of Kiri wood grown in Australia has just posted here (http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?p=495266). The website is www.paulownia-timber-sales.com.au.

I have sent away some questions, already.

[zenwood]

One of the draws I pulled out had an interesting feature, the side face draws were about 25% longer then the draw bottom. This meant that you could pull the draw all the way out to see all of the draw content without risking tipping the draw out as you dig around.The disadvantage of this being that you reduce the storage space of the drawer. As with most design considerations, there is a compromise involved.


The draw bottom was recessed into a groove. The trick was that the draw bottom was mould with a type of Base Cap moulding (http://www.sfvictoriana.com/product.php?title=22-13&pid=300) You mean the drawer bottom was a raised panel (http://www.oldbloomfield.com/id60.htm)? This has been a technique in western furniture for centuries.

[thumbsucker]

You mean the drawer bottom was a raised panel (http://www.oldbloomfield.com/id60.htm)? This has been a technique in western furniture for centuries.

yes - like i said I am not sure if these design elements are common outside china. I had never seen it before and it is very cool.

[Carry Pine]

I visited the shop in Northcote: tombo co pty ltd, 80 High st Northcote.
www.tomboco.com (http://www.tomboco.com)

It was mainly imported, old Japanese furniture and textiles. Very interesting but 'not my thing.'

We now have an importer of antique Japanese furniture in Mittagong and I noticed the joinery is really over the top. Corners are finger jointed, have bamboo 'nails' and have metal plates as well.

I appreciate that other people like the less formal look, very differerent from our European flat surfaces and clean, crisp corners.

Cheers,

Carry Pine

[johnc]

Thanks for that, interesting reading. I was told that the stamp on mine about Eurpean Labour dated it to the 1930's, but this article seems to suggest otherwise. It does have machine cut dovetails on the drawers though, don't know if that helps date it more accurately.

Mick

Not sure if this adds anything either, I have a roll top desk that belonged to my Grandfather with the same stamp. We are fairly certain the desk was purchased in the 1920's, but certainly no later than early 1930's. This piece has stood the test of time without splits, and remains in good order.

John.

[m2c1Iw]

Enjoying this discussion, I'm a Grene & Greene fan and think it is because of the chinese influence a site that might be of interest is http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/architecture/greeneandgreene/

[la Huerta]

well mate i'v just gone all tingley with exitement knowing that another fellow woodworker spends all his spare time looking at chinese furniture in the shops, as do i...


just love the stuff...hav'nt been able to replicvate any yet although i did get a pretty good 'black' finish using black japan, and i spoke with the designer Tara Dennis about it a bit and she uses enamels to get the colors and then a wiping antique stain/varnish over the top to get the aged look...if you look at the reproductions, some of them are antiqued really well, so it is possible to get the old look...another thing i like so much about the style is the lack of perfection, the uneveness of the boards, the nature of the finish, it all add so much character, instead of everything having to be so plain.

[thumbsucker]

I amazed how this thread just keep going. I am glad to see others find beauty in the imperfection of these old craftsman.

m2c1Iw thank you for the green and green link. :2tsup:

[la Huerta]

damm what happened to half the post on the forum , it just got back on air now and some of the recient post are gone, namely mine...

oh well...

here is a super link for you oriental furniture nut heads like me...it's a good one...click on the top menu link 'craft tour'

http://www.theimixclub.com/index.htm

don't forget to check out there furniture too.

[la Huerta]

is anyone here planing to build any oriental furniture at the moment, it would be good to get some construction details up here, even if it's not traditional joinery...

i was going to do a piece with kreg pocket hole screws, there more to my skill level...but with a traditional looking finish...

[fletty]

is anyone here planing to build any oriental furniture at the moment, it would be good to get some construction details up here, even if it's not traditional joinery...

i was going to do a piece with kreg pocket hole screws, there more to my skill level...but with a traditional looking finish...

I'm not making a piece but I am repairing the table shown below. The problem is that the table top has shrunk laterally, some boards have pulled away from others and some boards have split. The table top has to come off the legs so that it can be disassembled and a new filler board inserted. The top is held on by 8 dowels which were found, drilled and then extracted. The construction appears to be as per the attached drawing from Ecke's book ( Chinese Domestic Furniture, Gustav Ecke, Dover) and all of the table boards are held onto a dovetailed brace as well as 'tongue and grooved' into the table border.
The photos show 1 the table, 2 the (probable) construction, 3 the problem, 4 my method of extracting the dowels, 5 the dowel removed.
I am happy to post pics as I go ... but it won't be quick!
Fletty

[la Huerta]

hey fletty, thanks for posting the pics, i feel kind of guilty and all considering i 'm hijacking the thread, sorry Thumsucker, can't help it, you hit a soft spot ...

that joinery in the dia. above gives me the chills...

[Andy Mac]

Hi there,
Just bought a book today at St. VdeP, called "The English Archive of Design and Decoration". Not my thing but a quality book at $4.00 isn't to be sneezed at.
Basically an overview of design influences in England in the last few centuries, including furniture, textiles and applied arts (cutlery, pottery etc).
I have scanned these couple of pages, originally from 1757 by William Chambers, when Chinoiserie was the big buzz in the west. No real detail of construction, but the Chinese style is very evident, so maybe of some interest to the discussion.

Cheers,

[Andy Mac]

And the other one...