Sorry, Another sharpening question

[Howdya do that]

I still cant get it right:(

I have purchased some water stones 800, 1200 & 6000 and a Vertitas MKII honing guide in an attempt to improve the edge I get from the old Norton combination stone. I also bought some Iyoroi chisels and as it turned out I was wise not to work on them at my first attempt:2tsup:

I used a stanley 19mm bevel edged chisel straight from the box set for my first attempt.

Starting with the 800 stone I worked on flattening the back of the chisel, working in a circular motion from the front to the back of the stone, then the 1200 and 6000.
I then set up the chisel in the honing guide and worked the chisel in a back and forth motion on each stone.
The result is a mirror finish to both sides of the chisel but it is still no sharper than it was out of the box. It certainly wont shave the hairs off your arm:doh:
I know this is not the highest quality chisel but I should still be able to put an edge on it, right? the quality only influences how long it holds that edge, right?

Observations I made, but dont know if they make a difference.
Lot's of Black crud formed on the stones as I sharpened.
When I took the chisel out of the honing guide after polishing on the 6000 stone there was no burr, I thought there should have been:?

[silentC]

You are putting water on those stones aren't you? Soak them in water for an hour or two before use? Just checking :wink:

I get shaving sharp edges on my yellow handled Stanleys. As you say the quality of the steel will really only affect durability, not sharpness, although there is a practical limit beyond which shyte steel will break down rather than get sharper.

I'd say at a guess that you're not getting your bevel meeting the back of the blade as well as you think. You don't necessarily get a noticeable burr but I can usually feel one after using the 1000 waterstone.

[MikeW]

One possibility is that you are using too much pressure when doing the bevel face.

Take care, Mike

[Cliff Rogers]

This old Stanley that you are practicing on... have you been cutting rocks, concrete &/or nails with it?
If so, you may need it give it a run on a bench grinder or a belt sander before you move to the water stones....

[Cliff Rogers]

OK, I'll take that as " Yes, I did give a touch up on the grinder first." :rolleyes: :)

Now then, after it came off the grinder, was it sharp? :?

If so, you are doing something wrong with the water stones.

If not, go back to the grinder 'cos otherwise it is going to take you ages with the waterstones.

[silentC]

OK here's how I get a quick and dirty sharp edge on my yellow handle Stanleys:

1. Hollow or flat grind at or around 25 degrees until you get a burr on the edge
2. Give the back a few swipes through all the stones until it looks clean. Only need to be really fussy the first time, or if it's been damaged
3. Chock it up in the jig (I've got the same one you've got) and set it to 30 degrees
4. Rub it back and forth on the coarse stone until you can see a clean bevel all the way across the edge
5. Do the same on the fine stone until it's nice and shiny
6. Take it out of the jig, place it back down on the really fine stone and drag it back towards you a couple of times.

I can shave hairs after that and it's good enough for most work. Anything more is only necessary for fine paring etc. People will tell you why this is bad or you should do that etc. I'm only telling you what I do when I need a chisel sharp enough to cut a hinge mortice in a door. If you can get that to work for you, then you can get into the esoterics of it.

[Howdya do that]

I dont have a bench grinder Cliff (are we getting serious here:D ) and the chisel is brand so really shouldn't need grinding I would have thought.
the end was not square to the edge so it took quit some time in the jig to get it even across the whole face.

[silentC]

A budget bench grinder wont cost you any more than you paid for one of your waterstones and it will save you a lot of work. Or you can go all Derek on it with a beltsander.

[Howdya do that]

Thanks Silent,
I currently have the whole edge beveled at 30 degrees, that may be the problem:?

I'll give it a go tonight:2tsup:

[silentC]

Looks like we're back online.

I tried to post this yesterday afternoon but the forum fell over. It wasn't my fault!

The 30 degree bevel isn't going to be your problem (as you may have already found out). The reason for grinding at 25 degrees first is just to give you less metal to have to remove when honing. It doesn't really pay off until you have to re-sharpen, but if you had a bench grinder, it's a lot quicker to grind this 25 degree bevel and then just make a very small 30 degree bevel with the stones, than to hone the whole bevel at 30 degrees.

Then gradually as you re-sharpen over time, the 30 degree bevel gets wider and wider and takes longer to reinstate, until it's time to grind at 25 degrees again.

If you are doing it all with the stones, then you wont get all of the speed advantage until you come to re-sharpen. It will take just as long to grind at 25 degrees first as it will take to grind at 30 degrees but when it comes to honing, you'll have much less metal to remove and so that part will be quicker.

[Howdya do that]

Thank's Silent,

I am going to Dubbo tomorrow to get an bench grinder.

I have since found that there is a huge variation across the backs of the whole set. About 0.5mm variation in places but particularly 25mm back from the cutting edge a taper starts toward the cutting edge.
What is the best way to remove a lot of material from the back of the chisel?

[silentC]

Well I've tried cheap diamond stones, sandpaper and the 1000 grit waterstone. I've also tried a beltsander (the hand held type). The belt sander removes metal fast but you have as much work to do to remove the damage done by the belt as you would to flatten the back on a stone in the first place. Unless you have one of those stationary types, you might get better results with that.

At the end of the day, there's nothing for it but to sit down with a beer and the radio on and think about something else while you're doing it because it can take ages. Decide before hand how flat you think it needs to be. If you just want a sharp chisel, you only need the first 25mm or so to be flat and no imperfections near the edge. If you want to do precise paring, then you need the back to be as flat as you can get it because it will act as the 'fence' and needs to be inline with the cutting edge.

I decided the yellow handled Stanleys weren't worth the bother, so I've got the first 25mm or so in good nick and the rest be damned.

[Howdya do that]

In the shed, beer in hand, radio on, sounds like my type of Saturday afternoon. Not sure if you are familiar with Roger Gifkins box making book Silent but he say's you need a really sharp chisel and use just a rocking action to the hinge rebates for small boxes. This is where I want to be so paring level is where I am aiming.

I'll report back on Monday

Thanks,

[Dan]

When I took the chisel out of the honing guide after polishing on the 6000 stone there was no burr, I thought there should have been:?
There should be a burr after the 800 stone, you should stay on the 800 untill you can feel the burr.

[scooter]

Howdya, Dan has nailed it.

I reckon the most reliable way to sharpen knives, plane irons, chisels, or whatever is to ensure you can feel a bur right across the cutting edge before finishing with that grit, this ensures you are removing metal right up to the cutting edge.

Flatten the back to whatever standard suits you, then hone the bevel with each grit, make sure you can feel the burr right across, backing it off each time on your finest stone.

Finish with light strokes & strop if wanted.

Do the same with each grit, backing of the


Cheers..............Sean

[derekcohen]

Howdya

My bet would be that you did not hone the primary bevel (using the 800 grit) until a wire edgewas created. If this is the case, all you did was polish up two sides of a bevel and at no time actually created a sharp edge.

The Stanley chisels are fine. They hone up really sharp. They might not hold their edge as long as some others, but the steel is good. If you are not getting them to shave arm hair, then your technique is faulty.

1. raise wire edge on primary bevel.
2. raise wire edge on primary bevel.
3. raise wire edge on primary bevel. You can tell this is good if you (a) feel the raised edge, and (b) look at the edge in the light and do not see a reflection.
Check the back of the blade - if the sides are dubbed, then you will not be able to sharpen the primary bevel across its length.
4. now you are ready to use the 1200 and 6000.

Try this article:
http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/dCohen/z_art/lappingBlade/lappBlade1.asp

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Howdya do that]

EUREKA:2tsup:

I finished sharpening my first chisel last night, and sharp, Holy shyte batman, its razor sharp. Shaves the hair of the dogs ear (Just kidding, she was sitting there and I was tempted:D )

Thanks to all for your input:2tsup:

I'm probably telling most of you how to suck eggs but I did find one thing that made getting the back flat a lot easier was by working from the end of the stone rather than the side and keeping as much of the chisel surface on the stone as I could.

Once again thanks heap:2tsup:

Now, where is that old Stanley hand plane I've had for 30 years:U