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dopeydriver
20th April 2007, 04:59 PM
How well is John Alden thought of as a yacht designer ?.
Rob J.

Gumby
20th April 2007, 05:20 PM
How well is John Alden thought of as a yacht designer ?.
Rob J.

I rarely think of him at all. :)

bitingmidge
20th April 2007, 09:57 PM
Here we go again! :D

Between 1908 and 1954, John Alden employed the best draftsmen of his generation, and the legacy is 900 yacht designs that have proved as durable as they ... blah blah blah

So people who want "classic" design and are happy to build using 50 or 100 year old technology would think an Alden yacht was fantastic. Some still mistakenly (IMHO) commend their seaworthiness, clearly oblivious to the fact that things have improved somewhat in over half a century of desing and material evolution.

Others would respect the style for what it is.

Don't forget a modern Honda sedan will outperform a 70's supercar in every respect, and provide greater economy and an enormous safety margin to boot.

Similar comparisons can be made, but the glossy magazines don't!

Cheers,

P
:D

dopeydriver
21st April 2007, 12:40 AM
I have no intention of building an Alden design , but there is a beautifully made Alden timber ketch for sale , and I was simply asking what was thought of Alden , with their designs.
I wouldn't have a Honda , you couldn't give me one.Its too complex , I'm happy with something older that I can get in to if I have to.At least I know what the hell is going on !.
I like the real timbers of the ketch , Ii like the 6ft 4 headroom , I was just inquiring how it could be expected to sail.
Rob J.

Wild Dingo
21st April 2007, 03:37 AM
John Alden has been a byword in woodenboat design and building for almost 100 years... beautiful designs :2tsup: Website here (http://www.aldendesigns.com/)

Now as to the "ketch" your thinking of... would that be "Decatur" She being an Alden Malabar design? if so then shes a schooner not a ketch... just thought Id point that out ;:

I think I will wait and see if its "Decatur" your thinking of and get back with more info if you wish.. needless to say if it is she is beautifull and built by a life long boatbuilder of the best timbers

Cheers
Shane

dopeydriver
21st April 2007, 08:47 AM
No Shane , its the "Black Witch" found at www.rowellmarine.com.au (http://www.rowellmarine.com.au).
Rob J.

bitingmidge
22nd April 2007, 08:47 PM
Rob,

I wasn't having a crack, just making the point that she can be expected to sail like a very well designed 50 year old boat.

Anything (almost) designed in the last twenty years will be faster, safer and more comfortable. It just won't have the romantic myth hovering round it clouding people's eyes and judgement.

My experience with designs such as this is that the people who wax lyrical about their seakeeping abilities haven't had any experience in modern designs. This is not to say they are crook, they aren't, they are just not as good as the myth suggests.

Cheers.

P

Wild Dingo
23rd April 2007, 12:25 AM
Bloody hell Rob!! MAN!!:o you either have won the lotto or have a very forgiving missus or youve got more money than I thought you did!! considering the other boats youve been looking at this ones like the bloody Queen Mary!! :o

Thanks for the pics by the way :2tsup:

Mate
1) shes beautiful FOR SURE!!
2) shes not a one man sailer... if you can get hold of Bernadette who has Decature for sale (in Sydney I believe) find her email through the search function on woodenboat.com just type in Bernadette when you find her click her name and theres a list choose email bernadette and ask her whatever questions you wish... really nice lady and a good sailor of many years as well as having built Decature... so knows her stuff
3) shes dear... well not really considering but still comparitively to the others youve been sending me info on shes expensive... but needs no work from the sounds of the blurbs
4) get a survey... shes wood... just do it
5) Alden designs are GOOD designs... even if I tend to disregard our ol mate midgey as being somewhat biased I think hes on average more right than wrong... however that being said Alden have designed some VERY VERY good designs over the years... and are still designing so theyre aware of the new ubeaut materials that are in use... give them an email and see what they have to say about your needs and wants.

6) Im biased... I just love boats that have a yesteryear feel and look... plastic tupperware boats just dont do it to me... no offence to those who have them they just dont feel or look right to me thats all... put it this way midgey hates with a vengence Wharrams I love them we differ same as all people and all boats people will differ on what they like and yes emotion and asthetics does enter into it with woodenboats in particular theres a romance an appeal there... and hence point 4 above... regardless of the blurb find a GOOD experienced with woodenboats marine boat surveyor to go over her from top to bottom and everywhere he can shove his head arm or hand... check her out totally

Anyway shes a beauty... but then I also liked that old fishing boat you sent me :2tsup: ... Im just like that :; actually as nice as Black Witch is I liked the fishing boat better... not into fancy shamsy... unless its a Fife or a Logan then Im a gone duck :B

Cheers

dopeydriver
23rd April 2007, 09:49 AM
Shane , I doubt I'd be buying the "Black Witch" , although if I set my mind to it , I could.
But I'm just going through the mental exercise , would I want a boat of this type ? , would I want the "Black Witch"?.
One big difference between "Wind Dancer" and "Black Witch" is that the "Witch" has 2 steering stations.
The Witch is only 17 years old , has been regularly updated , but obviously if we were to go ahead I'd be getting every check made , by well qualified shipwrights.
My impression is that it is a conservative , well proven design , that really demands to be sailed well , with a good crew.
Am I going to be able to provide that ?, I doubt it.
Whereas the "Dancer" wouldn't be out of plus with the GM working , and a bit of sail up , and when the conditions are right it is able to do very well under sail alone.
The day I wrote the first post I had just come back from the chiro , its always a reminder of our vulnerability.I don't want something that requires a gymnast to sail , 'cos that would mean it would probably spend a lot of time moored.I just want something that can get me about , preferably under sail , relatively easily , while we are physically able.
And I like wood. I'm aware of its weaknesses , including ply.
I prefer to sail , but if I want to go out when its not really weather for sail , then I want something that can do the job still.
And we would be living on it for extended periods , it would be for more than a bit of a sail along the coast.
I won't be building this big 'cos I'm running out of time , so , what to buy ?.
The motor sailer has appeal , particularly when you can get about standing , but which way to go ?.
Rob J.

bitingmidge
23rd April 2007, 11:14 AM
The day I wrote the first post I had just come back from the chiro , its always a reminder of our vulnerability.I don't want something that requires a gymnast to sail , 'cos that would mean it would probably spend a lot of time moored.I just want something that can get me about , preferably under sail , relatively easily , while we are physically able.
And I like wood. I'm aware of its weaknesses , including ply.
I prefer to sail , but if I want to go out when its not really weather for sail , then I want something that can do the job still.
And we would be living on it for extended periods , it would be for more than a bit of a sail along the coast.
I won't be building this big 'cos I'm running out of time , so , what to buy ?.
The motor sailer has appeal , particularly when you can get about standing , but which way to go ?.
Rob J.
Rob,
A few thoughts in reverse order to your comments:

Most non-racing boats over 30 feet have standing headroom for even me (6'3") in the saloon, so that shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Motor sailing is fine, but you get a compromise in both areas, a power boat with the inefficiencies and lack of space of a sail boat, or a sailing boat with compromised hull forms. Realistically when cruising, you will spend most of your time at anchor, and it's amazing how much time motoring. If you are intent on coastal cruising it really worth the extra work and maintenance to have a sail at all?

There's nothing wrong with wood, after all I currently own 65 feet of wooden boats! :- , but be prepared to spend a lot if you are going to properly maintain it, or lose a lot if you are not.

Fibreglass isn't a be all and end all either by the way, I have a friend who has thus far travelled to NZ on his circumnavigation, and will spend the next twelve months and $50,000 dealing with a major structural fault in his 40 well known Aus built boat.

If you seriously don't want a fit crew, then stop looking at anything bigger than 40 ft. 36 would be better, and you'll have all the accomodation a couple would ever need as well as room for the occasional crew, and a boat that you can handle relatively easily to boot. The money you save on the purchase could be used to maintain it to aircraft standards!

Of course I'm biased, get a beautiful picture of an Alden under full sail, and frame it on the wood paneled bulkhead in the saloon of your modern displacement motor cruiser. That way you can live the dream, while anchored in some secluded anchorage. You will have been there for half a day, been for a sail in the Puddleduck, come home and had a hot shower and a nice cold beverage of choice from your fridge, while the Alden owners are still out there doing battle with the elements.

Don't get me wrong I love sailing. I've sailed a few thousands of ocean miles on the East Coast in everything from an 18 foot trailer sailer to an 80 foot maxi and boats with every hull configuration you can think of (even a proa) , and it's a wonderful experience when things are going well. When they are not, you need everything going for you, a boat that sails to windward, or can make headway into the breeze under power, and really importantly a boat that is easily sailed by a single person. At those times, a romantic picture is of no use.

I suppose I have taken Dingo and yourself to task fairly often, and I'll keep doing it, not because you are wrong, there are NO wrongs in this world, but to reinforce my point, that it is too easy to confuse GENUINE seaworthiness with the myth of "Classic Beauty".

Cheers,

P(and thanks for listening!)
:D :D

Boatmik
24th April 2007, 12:32 PM
f you seriously don't want a fit crew, then stop looking at anything bigger than 40 ft. 36 would be better, and you'll have all the accomodation a couple would ever need as well as room for the occasional crew, and a boat that you can handle relatively easily to boot. The money you save on the purchase could be used to maintain it to aircraft standards!

Cheers,

P(and thanks for listening!)
:D :D

THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

A 40 footer probably costs 3 to 5 times more to maintain than a 30 footer and a 50 footer will cost 10 to 15 times the maintenance of a 30 footer.

A big traditional boat is a huge project in terms of both labour and money.

"REAL TIMBER" built "TRADITIONALLY" and getting a bit "OLD" generally means that serious money is required not too far down the track.

So if you see a 40ft trad cruising boat going for less than $100,000 there is likely to be some real money that needs spending very soon. Even at $100,000 that is well below what a boat that size in good working condition should cost. One in good condition with no major issues would probably be up to double that.

I wouldn't buy anything cheaper unless I was very sure I wouldn't have to rebuild it.

And I would be looking at shorter than 40ft anyhow - just to keep the ongoing costs down.

Get a look at Jerry Cornell's "World Cruising Survey" - everyone of modest means - you and me - uses relatively small boats for cruising - 36ft to 38ft is the AVERAGE.

As you probably know averages (mean) are always skewed toward larger values - so by far the bulk of people will have boats much SMALLER than the average. Less than 36ft.

Like AVERAGE weekly wage in Australia is around $800pw - yeah!?!

MIK

STEPHEN MILLER
24th April 2007, 09:52 PM
Midge you really do babble on if it wasnt seaworthy or sailable Alden wouldnt have built 900 boats of his design just because its old doesnt mean the tecnology has past it by you should read a few Classic Boat mags instead of OZ Amateur Boat Builder you might learn something
Mate of mine has a 30ft Harris design built by same in the 30s beautiful boat he managed to redo all the caulking replace some ribs rerove etc and own a 1960 MG as well and work as well. The whole interior has been replaced as well so anything is possible if you want to.
So let these guys go and start blabbering again when you finish that canoe thingy of yours
By they way most of us must be below average mines 30ft and poor old Daddles is only 14

bitingmidge
24th April 2007, 10:44 PM
Midge you really do babble on

Yes I do! :D but I'm not alone, and I like the sound of MY babble, which is a shame really, because it often gets in the way of what I'm trying to say!:wink:

if it wasnt seaworthy or sailable Alden wouldnt have built 900 boats of his design just because its old doesnt mean the tecnology has past it
Please explain why not? I'd like an understanding of how solid, heavy timber hulls are in any way equal to a modern lightweight composite structure, (and composite can include all forms of timber by the way).

That's like saying because they sold 20,000 holdens in 1952 it doesn't mean the technology has past it! Of course you could still drive around Oz in an FJ Holden. Would you be as safe or as comfortable (or for that matter as reliable) as if you had done it in a 2000 model?

The boats were among the best OF THEIR TIME. I have never meant to imply that they are not seaworthy or sailable, just that they are not as capable as many more modern designs.

by you should read a few Classic Boat mags instead of OZ Amateur Boat Builder you might learn something
If I told you I have among other things 15 years of Woodenboat magazines on my shelf and beside my bed, would that make a difference? It's true and it should give you a glimpse of what I feel about the romantic side of sailign. Sadly AABB is guilty of often sending the message of "if it looks old it must be good". This comes about because they'll publish anything sent to them without checking the qualifications of the author, crikey I've even had stuff published! :oo:

How many times have you read the line "it goes to windward surprisingly well"? I just don't like those sort of surprises. I like to know it goes to windward astonishingly well before I go to sea in it!

Mate of mine has a 30ft Harris design built by same in the 30s beautiful boat he managed to redo all the caulking replace some ribs rerove etc and own a 1960 MG as well and work as well. The whole interior has been replaced as well so anything is possible if you want to.
Yes well if we want to get into a weeing competition, I've got mates too! I'll bet my mate's MX5 is better than the MG in every respect. People who have old cars are quite rightly called collectors, so why is it that people think that old boats are more than that? They have all the quirks of old things, anyone who has ever been in a boat built before about 1960 will understand why the whole interior had to be replaced :wink: .

So let these guys go and start blabbering again when you finish that canoe thingy of yours
Now you're staring to sound like my missus!

By they way most of us must be below average mines 30ft and poor old Daddles is only 14
Sorry I didn't mean to be pompous because I happen to have a very eccentric collection of very cheap small craft (the 65' comment was a joke actually) , but I'm curious Stephen;

Have you ever been in a heavy sea in an old boat that's sprung a seam in a storm? Or recaulked one? Or spent any time (at least a couple of hundred, perhaps a few thousand sea miles) on a quality modern cruising yacht? Or perhaps undertaken offshore passages alone? Perhaps you'd also like to comment on the relative maintenance costs of a 50' timber classic versus say a ten or fifteen year old 36 foot modern cruising boat?

Perhaps after I've finished my canoe, you could tell me how you felt in each of those situations. My babble above summarises how I felt!

Cheers,

P

STEPHEN MILLER
25th April 2007, 12:25 PM
:D Ill write a bigger post then usual for me maybe pinched my sons [the one whos a apprentice shipwright who builds plastic boats]laptop so Im sitting in the hospital while my wife has dialysis.

Only been sailing since 98 so I havent had your experience Midge, started in Access Dinghies and worked up to what we own now a doubled diagnal cold moulded gaboon ply Westsystemed and dynel sheeted, cruising boat of 30' x 10' beam x draws 3'6" powered by 10 HP Buhk sail drive, lauched in 93 it was designed and built by naval archertect who had a business building small racing boats etc out of ply but closed down because he wouldnt switch to GRP.Spent 2 months in 03 stripping the paint off her topsides cab hull etc as the owner had started painting her with Wattyl Solaguard [terrible stuff on a boat] repainted with International Brightside. Have spent the last 12 months making it wheelchair accesible which works so the wife can continue ti go sailing. There is a boat of same hull design by same person different above the decks and has a raisable dagger keel that draws 8' other sizes match ours built of aluminium and is the fastest boat at Port Adelaide Sailnig Club

,Have not cruised a couple of thousand miles have cruised a couple of hundred some solo and raced a couple of hundred across St Vincents Gulf in Duncanson 29 & 23 Triton 26 Lexcen 32 etc.

Have been on board a 90 year old planked boat when its sprung a plank on the way to KI. when we hit a big wave an had to turn around and return to Adelaide as we had barely left Outer Harbour but thems the brakes when you sail a boat.

There has been many a modern boat that has come unstuck well known boat
Scandia, Australia ? snapped in half, and a few others that have had keels drop off .

Ill admit wooden boats with planks can be alot of work but if well maintianed this is less of an issue but some people enjoy this, even modern built ply boats can be just as much work. So can a plastic boat when they get osmosis which can be a bit common when there not layed up properly to start or are poorly maintained.

So it boils down to what people want in the end its there choice how much work they want to do on there boat as some people feel that is half the enjoyment of owning a boat. So you can offer advice and let them go with there choice after all it is there love for what they want so we should let them run with it.

And by the way Midge you do bite some times and big time and I hate to start sounding like your wife wouldnt not want to do her out of a job and if you build enough Eureka canoes and lay them end to end you will get to 65' there more chance of that happening with you then Daddles as he seems to always be paddling in circles. So between you and Mik + others there is alway something interesting to read and some usfull imformation to be had :D

bitingmidge
25th April 2007, 12:54 PM
You'll do! :wink:


And by the way Midge you do bite some times and big time
Would you want it any other way? :D

I suspect once again we have two people separated by a common language!

Again let me say I'd happily COLLECT the boats being discussed, but choose to cruise in things that aren't museum pieces! Put yourself on the same boat with the sprung plank half way to Noumea, for my reason!:oo:

Yes, modern RACING boats do break. They are built with the philosophy (to which for racing, I subscribe): " If it doesn't break, it's too heavy. If it does, it wasn't strong enough".

So back to the question: How well is Alden thought of: and my answer - very well (in a classic sense!).

Now you've got me going round in circles as well as thinking that way!

Cheers,

P