combination machines

[stevepay]

hi every one, first post for me so be gentle!

I'm in the market for a table saw and some other gear, probably a planer or jointer maybey a drill press as well.

heres my dilema, I've been looking mostly at the jet/delta gear and some others and thought I had made up my mind, then I went looking at the combination machines at Ron Mack in Ozzy park ( the casadei parva combis ) are these machines a viable alternative to a group of machines? I have never used a combi before and am not sure of the machines abilities, and for what their asking its not a cheap mistake if I get it wrong.

any Ideas? sugestions ? are they worth the money ?

:confused:

[Wayne Davy]

Stoppers,

Your and evil, evil man :D LOL

[ndru]

Stevepay,

This topic has been discussed briefly previously on this forum. but I've not seen any discussion covering the Casadei models. You'll find a fair bit of discussion about the pros and cons of combination machines versus separates generally on the rec.woodworking newsgroup (http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&group=rec.woodworking). Also, have a look at some of the Yahoo groups dedicated to machinery made by Robland, Minimax, Felder, etc. Fine Woodworking Magazine did a brief intro to combinations and a basic comparison between a number of models (http://www.minimax-usa.com/W161CH.pdf) .

I'm currently in "what machinery" research mode and plan to buy good quality stuff only once. My research so far has led me to the choice between combinations and separate machines coming down to:
- how important is workshop space to you? You can never have enough workspace to walk around in and assemble stuff! Combinations are more efficient with their footprint although you will still need a fair bit of space around them to change between functions;
- how do you plan to work? If you're in business and work in single projects you may find changing between functions gets tedious compared to having separate machines. Take squaring timber panels for example. This requires moving between the jointer, thicknesser and table saw, requiring the movement of the thicknesser bed, jointer table, dust collector for both functions and possibly even removal/replacement of the jointer fence to use the table saw. There is some planning required in working in batches on a combination machine, but is probably less demanding on the hobbyist. Combinations are not very useful if you have more than one person wanting to use it at the same time;
- are you thinking of buying a whole lot of machinery at once? If you plan to buy a new cabinet saw, jointer/buzzer, thicknesser (all Delta or Jet), router table and possibly an integrated mortiser all at once for about $7,000 - $12,000 you should not rule out a new combination machine at the same time. You may be very lucky and find a good second-hand combination for 3/4 to 1/2 the new price. Good euro combinations keep their value very well over a long period of time;
- do you plan to work with large panels? A good, large sliding table with outrigger may be important to you - they are usually integrated very well into combination machines. A more expensive "format table" that slides close to the saw blade could be useful for managing and long stock;
- do you want a wide jointer? Combination jointer/thicknessers are usually 300mm wide and about 1200mm long. Very few dedicated jointers are made wider than 200mm for less than $1,500AUD. I think that this advantage is partly offset by combinations thicknessers being a littler more awkward to use than their dedicated counterparts;
- how important is a spindle moulder? They are excellent for making bulk mouldings or doors, but require some training to use safely and effectively and their blades are more expensive than router bits. The new Minimax apparently will take 1/2" router bits but only spins them at 9000rpm - a bit too slow for all but the largest door raising bits;
- how important is mortising? I personally like the powerful and accurate slot mortiser attachments that most combinations provided at least as an option. However, they are usually quite heavy and therefore difficult to attach and remove when you use the jointer.
- do you want to cut dados/housings or grooves on the table saw? Some euro combinations won't take a stacked dado set. I know the Minimax CU models will accept a 3/4" dado set;
- do you want to be able to move machinery around? combinations machines are usually very heavy (300-600kg) and wide. Don't plan on moving them too much so careful placement is important! You may need a solid floor (concrete), and most mid-sized models won't fit through a standard door.
- can you cope with multiple electrical cables and dust collection to separate machines? A combination only requires one power cord and usually only one dust collection connection at any one time;
- retailer support for a combinations is important - if the electrical supply dies for some reason then the whole thing is dead until repaired. European combination spares can also be rare/expensive depending on the level of commitment by the brand to Australia.

Having just visited the Adelaide WWW show, I had a look at the Robland NLX310 (through Homag) models and the Minimax CU300 (through Gabbetts) - drool http://www.my-smileys.de/Drooling_anim.gif.

My situation is that I have a good sized workspace (750 sq ft) with good access but want the ability to also fit a bandsaw and drill press later, so conservation of space is still important to me. I will probably work with panels most of the time and timber later so a sliding table is attractive to me. I have a solid floor in and am not planning on moving house for 25+ years. I'm a long way from affording either of these beasts (a new X310 is about $7,000AUD new) but I'd prefer to make a significant outlay on a bunch of good machinery once (after a long process of convincing SWMBO) and grow into it over time. I'm convinced that cabinetry and joinery is my long-term hobby which I hope my son will also pick up.

After a long-winded responsehttp://www.my-smileys.de/sleeping.gif, my personal preference is to save up over the next 2-3 years (with the odd minor tool purchase) and purchase a combination machine. My current preference is the Minimax CU300 Smart (http://www.gabbett.com/combination.htm) which is more expensive http://www.my-smileys.de/eek2.gif than most combinations but I see it as having most of the current features I think would see me through most of my long-term hobby requirements and perhaps make some pocket money with over the long-term....

My 2.2 cents worth...

[John Saxton]

Stevepay,ndru has covered most of the relavant questions but it all comes down to the space available in your shop.
Those of us that do have combinations bought them predominately on the basis of having multiple functions available in a restricted space available us and I think that is a primary consideration.
Naturally if you have the room the then individual machines are the go giving you all the facilities without the need for the constant changing of set-ups and the need to re-measure your set-up with the combinations.
However having said all that I personally find my Mini-max suitable for my needs being restricted for space ...therefore I have a mindset in a comfortable zone having used it for a number of years now and have accepted the foibles or shortcomings that may be deemed by not having dedicated function machinery.
Casadei produce a top-end quality machine as do most of the combinations produced in Europe but for your $$$ value look at your needs as there are cheaper options that fulfil all the functions.Check out Felder as well not cheap ....as a comparison.They have an outlet in Perth..not sure who the agent is.
Some Options:-
Check out ....Fiori Machinery in Cannington.
Bills Machinery in Gnangara
Power Tools & Machinery in Bayswater
Gabbetts in Bentley


Cheers:)

[John Saxton]

Have fitted lockable castors to all my heavy stuff and no problem using the gear with the castors on,mind you have to pay a fair bit for the heavy duty industrial ones but worth it...the combination came with its own which drop when you have a need to move it.
The only thing fixed in place is the Lathe which sits on it's own heavy stand.
Cheers:)

[stevepay]

Thanks for the response everyone especialy ndru, its made my decision alot easier.the links provided and info was exactly what I needed.

I figure since my space is limited but not Tiny ( 12 by 24 foot garage) what I wouldn't give for 750 square feet! I will probably go with seperate machines, also the price of combis is quite high for the real quality machines.

since I want something that is still going strong in 10- 20 years ( with regular mait and repair, hopefully more the former than the latter)
and don't feel I need a shaper, a router table is fine and the bits are alot cheaper. although the jointer size on the combis is quite useful and a nice side effect of being attached to a planer, but I can still purchase a jointer/planer combo so all is not lost.

also my work is for pure pleasure with no real production demands on my time( unless you count the promised furniture required to justify to my better half this purchase!)

I guess in the end it will come down to whats available in my price range that will give me quality and accuracy in my work.

thanks for the advice guys
:D

steve