My Japanese Chisels

[Shedhand]

Its 8.30am. In the land of nod. Rudely awoken by the persistent chime of the doorbell. Opens door. "G'day Mike" - its me mate from Australia Post. :)

What have I bought this time. Lucky I'm single now or I'd be divorced... :-

[Shedhand]

woo hoo :2tsup:

[Shedhand]

After a lot of consultation with Soatoz I decided on a set of High Speed Steel chisels as they hold their edge much longer than the white and blue steel laminated ones. They take longer to sharpen however. I'll be using the Tormek 2006 to sharpen all my cutting tools now as the arthritis in my hands, elbows and shoulders is too hard to get around. :(

This is what I bought. $772 including decorated box, insurance and freight.

Set of 10 "Haisu Hyoue" brand HSS chisel.
Sizes: 3,6,9,12,15,18,24,30,36,42mm
Red Oak handle in Kiri-box signed box

The big (42mm) and the little (3mm) shown below. :)

I haven't tried them on a project yet but straight out of the box, I took a beautifully smooth 1/8th arris off the edge of a piece of birdseye Huon Pine in one cut with bugger all effort. :wink::2tsup:

I'm a very happy chappy and will provide a review of the sharpening process and their use at a later date.
CHeers

[m2c1Iw]

I :bowdown: to your tool selecting wisdom, very nice.

[Shedhand]

I :bowdown: to your tool selecting wisdom, very nice.
Arigato m2c1Iw san

[lignator]

Very cool and definitely gloat worthy.
Thanks for sharing.

[Shedhand]

Very cool and definitely gloat worthy.
Thanks for sharing.Thanks Lig. They are very pretty in the flesh I can assure you. :yes:
Cheers

[sinjin]

They look great Shed....Do you reckon i can have a couple for nicks...you have heaps in the box...lol

[Shedhand]

They look great Shed....Do you reckon i can have a couple for nicks...you have heaps in the box...lolGet your own mate....:D

[Scribbly Gum]

Tragic bad luck on your Japanese chisels purchase Sheddie.
Can't see those nancy boys standing up to any kind of punishment.
What you need is a full set of decent polycarbonate handled you beaut terriffic made in China Tiger Paw brand super soft non cuts.
This is your lucky day!
If you send those second rate made in Japan abominations to me, I'll replace them at absolutely no cost to you, with a brand new set of Tiger Paws,
Wadda ya say Sheddie? Huh? Huh?
Oh - all right I'll even throw in the postage. ...............
C'mon Sheddie........Wadda ya say? Huh? ...........................

Green with envy
SG:D:D:D

[Des.K.]

Unfortunately my first response to your well-deserved chisel gloat got lost in the great HDD crash of 2007, but I noticed on the Japanese Yahoo auction site (Yahoo auctions seem to be more popular up there than ebay) someone was putting a set of your chisels up for sale (this set was in a cardboard box with foam packing). Their reserve was ¥69,000 (it wasn't reached). So taking into account the decorated box, postage and insurance, I reckon ya dun good.

Regards
Des

[Shedhand]

Tragic bad luck on your Japanese chisels purchase Sheddie.
Can't see those nancy boys standing up to any kind of punishment.
What you need is a full set of decent polycarbonate handled you beaut terriffic made in China Tiger Paw brand super soft non cuts.
This is your lucky day!
If you send those second rate made in Japan abominations to me, I'll replace them at absolutely no cost to you, with a brand new set of Tiger Paws,
Wadda ya say Sheddie? Huh? Huh?
Oh - all right I'll even throw in the postage. ...............
C'mon Sheddie........Wadda ya say? Huh? ...........................

Green with envy
SG:D:D:DDon't fret mate. These will never see 'punishing' work. They will be used with care on my best work (when I finally get some REAL quality shed time. The Bergs will be used for the everyday stuff and the stanleys for spare screwdivers. :wink:

[Shedhand]

Unfortunately my first response to your well-deserved chisel gloat got lost in the great HDD crash of 2007, but I noticed on the Japanese Yahoo auction site (Yahoo auctions seem to be more popular up there than ebay) someone was putting a set of your chisels up for sale (this set was in a cardboard box with foam packing). Their reserve was ¥69,000 (it wasn't reached). So taking into account the decorated box, postage and insurance, I reckon ya dun good.

Regards
Desyep. I feel Soataz organised a good deal for me. ¥60,000 for the chisels and ¥5,000 for the wooden box, postage and insurance doesn't leave much profit margin for Soatoz I'd say. Can confidently recommend him to anyone wanting this sort of stuff. :2tsup: He seems to have some very good contacts in Japan. I had the chisels in my hands before I made the payment, (I did have to pay a $150 deposit before the order was placed. But, after trading informative and friendly emails with him I felt comfortable doing it this way).
Cheers
Mike

[Wild Dingo]

:2tsup: :2tsup: Well done Sheddy ol son well done!! :2tsup:

Im still a bit confused about these things but the muds slowly making way for chrystal as gunk... as you Derek and So among others work on me :doh: bloody darksiders :roll:

[soatoz]

Hey, sorry it took me so long to appear.
I was so busy getting my web page ready.

Regarding the price Sheddy got, it was before I was scolded by the wholesaler that I should make more profit in order to keep the business going, I have given an insanely discounted price. The chisel Sheddy got is actually made by the famous Sukemaru (very famous in Japan). I have raised my overall price, but still it should be the cheapes out of Japan.

Anyway, I'm glad that you like your chisels Sheddy. I hope to speak to you again soon.

OH, BTW, the photo of the lid is upside down mate! And I think you'd like to know what it says. It reads from right to the left, High Speed Steel, Haisu Hyoue, set of 10 chisels.

[zenwood]

Wondrously beautiful set of tools. And thanks soatoz for the lid translation: that was going to be my question:)

[Shedhand]

I thought it said "Very Excellent chisels use with respect". :wink:
I just made a joint with the chisels instead of the Festo router (which sat there sulking) :D . A simple half housed joint in Tassie Oak. I'm in awe. Cut like a hot knife through butter....:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[Stu in Tokyo]

Wow, that is some gloat on the chisels!

Nice set! (don't say that to a guy often......ah......EVER!!) :D

Cheers!

[Harry II]

Good on ya Sheddy, go get em.

[Shedhand]

G'day guys. I've used the HSS chisels on a couple of things now and they are a real joy to use I have to say. I think I'll be using them more than I thought.:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

[Stu in Tokyo]

Well, showing my ignorance here, and I feel stupid about it, considering where I live :- but I did not know that the smiths here were making chisels out of HSS.

Cool! :2tsup:

Are these "pounded" out of blanks or worked or ground out of blanks? :?

Cheers!

[Shedhand]

Well, showing my ignorance here, and I feel stupid about it, considering where I live :- but I did not know that the smiths here were making chisels out of HSS.

Cool! :2tsup:

Are these "pounded" out of blanks or worked or ground out of blanks? :?

Cheers!I really don't know stu. I'll find out from my supplier. Cheers

[TND-storm]

Hi!
I'm planning to buy a high quality white steel chisels set, but I think I'll also have to buy a mid level chisels set to make some training on freehand sharpening in order not to ruin the high quality chisels.
My doubt is: would work well for the task a set of HSS chisels or would it be better to take a mid level white steel set? (like Matsumura)
My fear is that HSS chisels could behave differently from laminated chisels, and would be hard to learn to sharpen them freehand well enough to be able to sharpen better laminated chisels without the risk of ruining them.
On the other hand, HSS chisels can be sharpened on bench grinders, I have a very good one with Oneway wheels that I use with turning tools.
Once I become confident with hand sharpening I could use HSS chisels for heavy work and sharpen them with the grinder (only for the coarse step of course) and use better ones for fine work.
Instead I fear that mid level laminated chisels would became nearly useles when replaced with high level ones.

I'd like to have your opinion on how would be to use HSS chisels to learn sharpening freehand on the situation described above...

Thanks
Marco

PS: if I'm OT i'll open another thread... sorry for "stealing" this one, it seemd the right place to ask...

[Stu in Tokyo]

I really don't know stu. I'll find out from my supplier. Cheers

Domo! :D

[Shedhand]

Domo! :D

Yes they are hand beaten to make the shape and also spherodize the steel molecule.
That's the essence of J tool making. That's why it's so hard and tenacious. Everything but
the lamination thing is the same as the most expensive J chisels.

If the chisel or any blade was just punched out, which is usually the case with cheaper
tools, the steel would be less robust.

But HSS and the soft steel's combination is so bad, it is very difficult to laminate. It can
be at the factory with special machine, but then the blacksmith can't hand beat to
spherodize, so HSS chisels are non-laminated.

This info from Soatoz (http://www.japan-tool.com/).

Cheers
Mike

[soatoz]

Hi!
I'm planning to buy a high quality white steel chisels set, but I think I'll also have to buy a mid level chisels set to make some training on freehand sharpening in order not to ruin the high quality chisels.
My doubt is: would work well for the task a set of HSS chisels or would it be better to take a mid level white steel set? (like Matsumura)
My fear is that HSS chisels could behave differently from laminated chisels, and would be hard to learn to sharpen them freehand well enough to be able to sharpen better laminated chisels without the risk of ruining them.
On the other hand, HSS chisels can be sharpened on bench grinders, I have a very good one with Oneway wheels that I use with turning tools.
Once I become confident with hand sharpening I could use HSS chisels for heavy work and sharpen them with the grinder (only for the coarse step of course) and use better ones for fine work.
Instead I fear that mid level laminated chisels would became nearly useles when replaced with high level ones.

I'd like to have your opinion on how would be to use HSS chisels to learn sharpening freehand on the situation described above...

Thanks
Marco

PS: if I'm OT i'll open another thread... sorry for "stealing" this one, it seemd the right place to ask...

Hi again Marco,

Oh, so you've already read this thread.

These HSS chisels are not as expensive as Yamahiro and others, just because they (HSS chisels) are not laminated. These are definitely not med level tools. Of course I am talking only about the HSS chisel Sheddy got which is made by famous Sukemaru, but not other cheaper HSS chisels from other makers. Cheaper ones aren't hand hammered and no where near as good looking as Sheddy's.

Also, the most difficult and important process of sharpening Japanese tools are the back flattening (uraoshi) and not the front bevel sharpening. If the back is flat, 50% of the sharpness is assured. That's why even though I don't really want to do it, despite the fact that I charge quite a lot for this job, I recommend the buyers who are new to J tools to have me do it, at least one if this buyer is getting a set. Maintaining the flat is much easier compared to making the flat. But since this uraoshi is such a tough job, and so many people ask me to have it done, I am having a second thought of offering this service.... My fingers are aching from too much uraoshi.

HSS chisel and other laminated chisels would be the same in that sense. If you can sharpen one properly, you can sharpen the other as well. It's just that when you are sharpening a laminated chisel, you need to very gently lift the butt of the chisel so that more pressure will be applied to the tip (=steel) so that the bevel won't be rounded. If you apply even pressure on the whole bevel, the iron will be ground quicker and would be rounded (the tip won't touch the stone after that). But for front bevel sharpening I recommend using a jig. It takes many years to properly sharpen the front bevel free handed, and if the sharpening is not good, no matter how good your tools are, the sharpness would be less than a properly sharpened super cheap tool.

Anyway, if you are still a novice free hand sharpener, again I strongly recommend using a jig to sharpen the front bevel for the time being. And meanwhile practice your hand shrapening with old junk tools, which you can buy either from me or on ebay. Also, I recommend having the back flattened by a skilled sharpener if you have never done uraoshi. Groggy is practicing his uraoshi technique with a cheap China made Japanese chisel, and that's another option if you'd like to do it yourself, but I must warn you it is not easy. We (I and Groggy) are planning on having an intensive uraoshi practice on the forum, but Groggy is busy at the moment, so it won't be starting for a while.

If you want to practice your sharpening technique on a decent set of tools as you use them, I can get the set Groggy got from me. And the price should be less than half of what I think you will be paying for the set of Yamahiro. I don't know where you are getting them from, but it shouldn't be less than AU$1000 (about US$833) right? Groggy's set is less than half and much easier to sharpen, so good for practicing, but the quality is quite good (the steel is White Steel #2). You can read Groggy's post for this set if are interested.

Ciao

[Groggy]

Hi there. Read your post So, so I thought I'd say what's going on. I think early next month maybe I'll get some time to work on this again. Time to sit down and have a go at the chisels just keeps getting away from me.

I took them along to the Melbourne BBQ on the weekend and a few guys had a peek at them. I have found that the ura is flattening back from the edge about 4mm so I am going to have to apply a bit of 'french' to the front of the blade to wear it there instead. Also, I think I will be needing a 4000 grit stone (why not :D ). What is the Japanese approach to rounding the corners? I know some western chisels are slightly rounded but I can't recall seeing any Japanese chisels being rounded. Leonard Lee (in his sharpening book) shows them being rounded to avoid splintering at the edge.

[soatoz]

Hi there. Read your post So, so I thought I'd say what's going on. I think early next month maybe I'll get some time to work on this again. Time to sit down and have a go at the chisels just keeps getting away from me.

I took them along to the Melbourne BBQ on the weekend and a few guys had a peek at them. I have found that the ura is flattening back from the edge about 4mm so I am going to have to apply a bit of 'french' to the front of the blade to wear it there instead. Also, I think I will be needing a 4000 grit stone (why not :D ). What is the Japanese approach to rounding the corners? I know some western chisels are slightly rounded but I can't recall seeing any Japanese chisels being rounded. Leonard Lee (in his sharpening book) shows them being rounded to avoid splintering at the edge.

Hi Groggy,

I have couple of things I don't quite understand what you meant. So could you please explain a bit more?

1.When you say "the ura is flattening back from the edge about 4mm" what do you mean by this??? Do you mean that the back of the blade is not touching the stone 4mm from the tip?

2. What does 'french' mean?

3. And what do you mean by rounding the corners?? The corners are the lifeline of a chisel because that's where it cuts the corner of the mortice, so I have never heard of rounding the corner technique, at least in Japan. But if you want to round the edge, like the edge of a plane blade, you can use a fine file and rub it gently, or simply use the side of a stone. But this technique is not common in Japan.

4. #4000 grit, you can either get from Shapton, or a natural stone called Aoto.

That's about it for now I guess?
Howz your course going BTW?

[TND-storm]

Hi!
Thanks soatoz for help!

I understand the importance of a good uraoshi, I cure it on every chisels (and even on the blades my Veritas planes, but there I'd call it "back's flattness"). I'll need to take some coarse diamond stone, the 3M microfinishing sandpaper I'm using wears far too fast with japanese chisels...
I'm training to sharpen with a Daitai mini chisel I bought from Fine Tools (.de), I've had problems to find how to sharpen the bevel properly due to the difference between iron and steel (bevel's angle went down to 25° from 30°before I found how to apply pressure on the bevel... then I exagerated the pressure on the tip and angle went up to 30°again... :D ). Now at least I can get a razor sharp blade freehand... Still I have so much to learn!
I sharpen on some natural belgian breccia stones, very effective!

You solved my doubt about HSS chisels: being not laminated I can't use them to train to apply pressure on bevel to wear iron and steel evenly... It would be better a set of cheap or mid level chisels, right?

Thanks!
Marco

[Groggy]

Hi Groggy,

I have couple of things I don't quite understand what you meant. So could you please explain a bit more?

1.When you say "the ura is flattening back from the edge about 4mm" what do you mean by this??? Do you mean that the back of the blade is not touching the stone 4mm from the tip?

Yes. From the tip it is rough, then 4mm back it is all good. Slowly creeping up to the tip.

2. What does 'french' mean?

Allez? Hehe. It simply means to apply a bit more power or to hold it slightly differently to flatten further forward. Push more on the tip and less near the handle.

3. And what do you mean by rounding the corners?? The corners are the lifeline of a chisel because that's where it cuts the corner of the mortice, so I have never heard of rounding the corner technique, at least in Japan. But if you want to round the edge, like the edge of a plane blade, you can use a fine file and rub it gently, or simply use the side of a stone. But this technique is not common in Japan.

I thought as much. Lee mentions this on page 81 of his book, "The Complete Guide to Sharpening". I thought I'd ask as I have never seen a variation like this on Japanese chisels.

4. #4000 grit, you can either get from Shapton, or a natural stone called Aoto.

I think the WW show in MLB I'll get one, or maybe browse around a certain friend's online store :; .

That's about it for now I guess?
Howz your course going BTW?
The attendance phase is over, I just need to get the essays and papers out of the way now :(.

[soatoz]

1.When you say "the ura is flattening back from the edge about 4mm" what do you mean by this??? Do you mean that the back of the blade is not touching the stone 4mm from the tip?

Yes. From the tip it is rough, then 4mm back it is all good. Slowly creeping up to the tip.


Oh, then you just keep pressing the tip (french) like you mentioned, and do uraoshi until the stone touches all the way to the tip. BUT, if the tip is very rounded, it need a ura"dashi" (light hammer tapping) and bend the tip so that you don't have to grind too much, but this process requires high skill, and if you blow it you'll end up with a huge chunk of chip... But basicaly those chisels shouldn't be so bad since it has basically been sharpened at the professional sharpener, so I'm sure you don't have to do any uradashi. Just keep on doing uradashi patiently.


2. What does 'french' mean?

Allez? Hehe. It simply means to apply a bit more power or to hold it slightly differently to flatten further forward. Push more on the tip and less near the handle.


Yes, that's exactly what you need to do. Is this term a widely known and used one? Then from next time it is easier for me to explain!



4. #4000 grit, you can either get from Shapton, or a natural stone called Aoto.

I think the WW show in MLB I'll get one, or maybe browse around a certain friend's online store :; .


Oh, when I said "from Shapton", I meant I can get one from Shapton for you. Aoto as well. It should be cheaper than getting it from elsewhere if you are interested.


That's about it for now I guess?
Howz your course going BTW?
The attendance phase is over, I just need to get the essays and papers out of the way now :(.

Oh, then it's the fun part!

Talk to you again