How often do you see a delaminating J chisel?

[lignator]

The chisel is a 48mm Iyorio oire nomi umeki(?) type. I'm still negotiating with the seller about resolving this problem. I'm sure he will correct the issue. No, it is not soatoz.

45553

It is hard to catch in the photos but there is a visible bubble on the surface that looks like it could be caused by an air-gap between layers about 20mm x 5 to 7mm. It looks like there is an opening about 3mm long at the lowest point in the slope (where the high grade steel meets the low grade steel).

45554

If i don't get this resolved, do you think it is safe to use as a bench (hooped) chisel? Maybe this is a good candidate for a test of regrinding a hooped bench type to a thinner long handled push type.

45555

Yes soatoz, I've been browsing your new site since before it became official. Looks like you've got some fantastic tools for sale. I'm not worthy of even the lowliest chisel there.

[Groggy]

I haven't seen that before and would not be happy to have it happen to one of mine. It may do for a paring action but I would not be hitting it with a hammer anymore, bummer. :(

[Wood Butcher]

It is hard to catch in the photos but there is a visible bubble on the surface that looks like it could be caused by an air-gap between layers about 20mm x 5 to 7mm. It looks like there is an opening about 3mm long at the lowest point in the slope (where the high grade steel meets the low grade steel).

Nope you can see it very well:C

Would like to see what soataz (resident japanese tool member) knows about this sort of incident

[dazzler]

That would be deraminating I guess.

[lignator]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I should add one more note to avoid confusion. I received the chisel this way. It is supposedly new, but from very old stock. The defect was not obvious until I removed a thick layer of lacquer or wax that was non-uniformly splattered on the back. About 10 other chisels (5 different brands) I received from this same source all looked great after cleaning them up.

[soatoz]

This is called "fukure (bloating)" and is caused by air getting in between the jigane (base iron) and hagane (steel) when laminating. It is definitely a defect that any decent shop would replace. I'm sure the seller will happily replace it for you lignator, unless it was sold cheap as defective.

I feel it is so unfortunate that Iyoroi sell these defective tools, even if it was for super reduced price. It'll just lower their reputation as defective tool maker. I can see that they can be used, and there should be almost no problem at all apart from the looks (yes you can strike, it won't peel off or anything until the delaminated part come to the edge) but Japanese tools are't all about superficial functionality, but spiritual functionality as well. I wonder if they don't have any pride in their products.

As you can see in my web site (chisel and yariganna), Iyoroi CAN make great and beautiful tools. But if Iyoroi keep sending these defective tools to the market (I have already been shown a couple from my friends), people one day might assume all Iyoroi tools have chance to be defective.

This is totally my personal opinion and definitely not a fact, but, I believe that if you make things with tools that you don't think is beautiful, the product itself will be affected by that thought. If you feel that the tool you are using is a special one, I assume you'd pay extra attention when preparing and using it. And that should definitely show on the result of production.

I have once told someone that $3,000 plane planes better than $300 plane, usually "simply" because it is more expensive. You'd expect the $3000 plane to be better, and that thought affects everything. Adjusting, sharpening, planing. Of course it'll plane better, and that's why tool smiths make their best performing tools beautiful as well, put it in a beautiful box with calligraphy signiture and a red stamp. This is because we are built more precise than machines I believe.

And that is why I basically sell only beautiful tools, even though it is more expensive and will not sell too well.:)

[soatoz]

BTW, I have never seen such a wonderfully huge fukure before. You might consider yourself lucky in that sense?

And thanks for sharing.:wink:

[johnc]

BTW, I have never seen such a wonderfully huge fukure before. You might consider yourself lucky in that sense?

And thanks for sharing.:wink:

Soatoz,

The word fukure for a fault is an absolute clanger (ozzie slang) of a word to describe a failure in manufacture that has landed on the buyer. It is a word that should be taken up by all of us and used often as it is similiar to two English words run together to describe a fault that the seller does not want to fix and know's he can get away with. You deserve several greenies for bringing it into our little corner of the world.

Cheers, John.

[Mirboo]

Check out this failure. It was posted on another forum (WoodNet) by a member who stated that he impatiently tried to lever out the waste. He reckons he went at it a bit more aggressively than he should have.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa291/jgourlay2007/th_IMG_1589.jpg (http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa291/jgourlay2007/IMG_1589.jpg)

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa291/jgourlay2007/th_IMG_1588.jpg (http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa291/jgourlay2007/IMG_1588.jpg)

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa291/jgourlay2007/th_IMG_1593.jpg (http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa291/jgourlay2007/IMG_1593.jpg)

The wood is Cocobolo.

You can view the original thread here (http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3046344&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=).

[lignator]

. . . if you make things with tools that you don't think is beautiful, the product itself will be affected by that thought. . . .

. . . This is because we are built more precise than machines I believe. . .
:)

OK Soatoz, I respect your technical expertise, but I think there may be a translation problem with your high dollar plane philosophy.

Firstly, do beautiful tools beget beautiful products or more likely, do the finest designers and craftsmen beget beautiful (& successful) products and thus can afford those beautiful tools? :)

Secondly, a machine can be designed to be more precise than any person. But precision alone is not the attraction to some of these high dollar tools. Studies have shown that if you graphically enhance a beautiful models face to make either side as a perfect mirror image of the other, the model looks dull, boring, or ordinary. Imagine Cindy Crawford without her birthmark, or Gwyneth Paltrow without her beauty mark, or a perfectly symmetrical tree for that matter. All these would be less than satisfying.

People are attracted to imperfection. Consciously or subconsciously; Kids will pick up the spotted faced puppy, collectors want the double stamped Stanley plane blades, the two headed sixpence, the mis-printed postal stamp. So, as a collector of rare and beautiful chisels, how could you pass up the deal I am about to offer you on an extraordinary example of Iyoroi’s stunning bubbles fukure style. New, unused, and still wrapped in yesterdays newspaper, POA. :U

Truthfully, I appreciate your instructive advise . . and enjoy your enlightening philosophy.

Thanks for sharing.
rick

[Schtoo]

Secondly, a machine can be designed to be more precise than any person.


Might want to try explaining that to these guys (http://horseandcountry.opusstream.net/Sports_and_Pastimes/116_214)...

They will, most likely, laugh in your face and be quite right in doing so.

Don't get me wrong, I know that machine can be very, very accurate and consistant in what they make, but it seems that for that extra little bit, the well trained human hand still has no equal.

Case in point, the guys in the link start with megabuck CNC machines and call that good enough for the craftspersons to go on with, because the machine just aint got it.

If they get a machine that has the touch and sense of a human, then maybe then they got us licked.

Anyway, enough hijack for now. :D

[willie]

OK Soatoz, I respect your technical expertise, but I think there may be a translation problem with your high dollar plane philosophy.

Firstly, do beautiful tools beget beautiful products or more likely, do the finest designers and craftsmen beget beautiful (& successful) products and thus can afford those beautiful tools? :)


Truthfully, I appreciate your instructive advise . . and enjoy your enlightening philosophy.

Thanks for sharing.
rick

I think there probably was a misunderstanding here. Soatoz is merely countering an old and often heard arguement. This being that functionality is all and that beauty is not important to a tools performance and is therefore a waste of money if it is attracting a premium.

This is relevant because Iyoroi is obviously selling tools which have serious forging faults, on the grounds that they will be functional and therefore should not be destroyed (and reforged). I know this as I also have such a chisel from this maker.

It is a shame. To me tools, like the work they produce, are an extension of self. I love my handtools and to me, their beauty and functionality are not seperate components. Of course many of my friends cannot see the beauty that I see within certain tools.

The respect I have for my tools definitely affects my ongoing treatment of them and translates into the work these tools and I produce.

Whew!

Hopefully this explains the "high dollar plane philosophy" if an explanation was required. Another way of reading this comment by Soatoz is that he is advising us to buy the $300 plane. (Think about it).
As an aside, Soatoz has several times steered me toward less expensive tools than what I was planning to buy. He does not make it clear in his comments but his stock is for the most part, high end items that are ALSO very good value for money.

[silentC]

Yes all very Zen.

It's a bit of a flip side argument to the poor tradesman blaming his tools. You're saying that having nice looking tools some how makes you a better craftsman. Well, if so, good for you, although I suggest that this idea is all in your mind and you could probably make something as nice with ugly tools like so many of us have to. I'm afraid that if I have to pay $1,000 for a set of chisels so that I can reach this lofty state of perfection, then my work will continue to be second rate.

I thank companies like Iyoroi for making their factory second tools available to people who can't afford to buy perfection. At the end of the day, if the sharp end is sharp, it doesn't matter what the blunt end looks like, the wood wont care. Beauty is only skin deep.

[willie]

Yes all very Zen.


Can you please explain the above? I don't understand this at all.


Yes all very Zen.

It's a bit of a flip side argument to the poor tradesman blaming his tools. You're saying that having nice looking tools some how makes you a better craftsman.

I don't remember saying that.




Well, if so, good for you, although I suggest that this idea is all in your mind and you could probably make something as nice with ugly tools like so many of us have to. I'm afraid that if I have to pay $1,000 for a set of chisels so that I can reach this lofty state of perfection, then my work will continue to be second rate.

I have made plenty of things with inexpensive tools.
Almost all of my tools have not cost me much.
I have neither reached nor aimed for lofty states of perfection.



I thank companies like Iyoroi for making their factory second tools available to people who can't afford to buy perfection. At the end of the day, if the sharp end is sharp, it doesn't matter what the blunt end looks like, the wood wont care. Beauty is only skin deep.

The fact that you are grateful for inferior "name" tools is probably what is preventing your aquisition of good tools. I do wonder if it is possible that your brutal and truculent attitude is somehow not transposed into your work.

[silentC]

Dear me, I do wish people would stop getting offended when someone challenges their views. It's all intended in the spirit of debate, I'm not having a personal shot at you. Calling me brutal and truculent is getting a bit personal but don't worry, I have a thick skin as well.

Now, firstly my coments are initially directed at soatoz but also by association at people who might support this view. Forgive me if I mistook you for the latter.

So what he is saying, is that having "beautiful" tools makes you a better craftsperson and so on. I am countering that view by suggesting that if this is so, then the difference is all in your mind and not in the tool and that with the right mind set "ugly" tools should not hold you back. Following on from this, I suggest that buying expensive (and "beautiful") tools does not necessarily lead to perfection and the lack of them does not preclude it. That's all I'm suggesting. I find the idea a bit elitist.

I'm not sure what you meant by your second last sentence. What prevents my aquisition of the quality of tools that are being discussed here is the price. If I had wads of cash, sure I would buy the best. I always buy the best I can afford. Although I don't believe they would make that much difference to the quality of my work. Your last sentence is a plain insult but I'll let it slide because you're obviously in a delicate mood.

I'm not really qualified to instruct you in Zen. Try a google.

[silentC]

And here are a couple of direct arguments, fully quoted so you know who I'm talking to. But don't let that stop anyone else from tearing them to shreds.

Japanese tools are't all about superficial functionality
I would say that the appearance of a tool is certainly superficial and that the quality of the steel is much more important. Sure, it's unlikely you will find a high finish on a cheap tool, but the high finish is not what makes the tool a quality tool to begin with. It is a mark of the quality but it's contribution to the tool is not integral to it's capability.


If you feel that the tool you are using is a special one, I assume you'd pay extra attention when preparing and using it.
I think that a good craftsperson would take good care of all his or her tools, regardless of the price or pretty patterns which adorn it.

[Sturdee]

And here are a couple of direct arguments, fully quoted so you know who I'm talking to. But don't let that stop anyone else from tearing them to shreds.


Far from pulling them to bits, I happen to agree with you.

Personally I think there are too many what I call " tool snobs" around who are more concerned with name, appearance and price of a tool than value for money.

Value for money takes into account the times the tool is used as well as the cost, appearance etc. For instance my $ 3.00 block plane from Bunnings is still the one I use the most. That's value for money. :D


Peter.

[soatoz]

Hi all.

I see my statement has created a bit of topic of conversation:) What an honour.

First off I have to beg pardon, and explain myself again, that the stated opinion is definitely NOT A FACT but merely my personaly opinion. I can't emphasize that enough.

As SilentC has stated "it is all in your mind and you could probably make something as nice with ugly tools like so many of us have to."

I might add that mind is part of yourself, and taking that into account is not a bad idea. And I think considering the price you pay for minorly defective Iyoroi chisels they have beauty of their own in that sense, and I must admit I was immature to not to appreciate that. Cindy's birthmark.... What an delightful way to express the fukure in a chisel.

There is a saying in Japan "Koubou does not choose his brush". Koubou is one of the three best calligraphers in Japanese history. I totally agree with this saying.

But I would like to say, "with ugly tools like so many of us have to" is not always so. Well it depends on the defenition of "less expensive" but, if I can say $320 for a set of 10 in a nice kiri box is less expensive, I think you can get a set of "beautiful" chisels for that much. No delamination, no defects. That's how much Groggy paid for his set of ten (ain't that right mate?), which he has kindly posted the photos on another thread.

Also, I consider $120 set of 6 Stanley chisels sold in Bunnings beautiful too. I used to use it myself (you don't believe that do you), and I enjoyed it's form. So it's a matter of defenition of "beauty" I didn't explain enough.

Sense of beauty is defined by oneself. If Van Gogh thinks his paintings are beautiful, then it is beautiful, no matter how long those paintings don't sell (while he's alive), and someday people will notice.

I stated my opinion carelessly that it made an impression that I have a different opinion from lingnator and SilentC, but that is not true. I am with you guys, and I really liked the Cindy Crawford metaphor (really a good one mate). My defenition of "precision" include that "imperfection" if you know what I mean. Humans can consider that imperfection as PERFECTION, and include that into beauty, I was refering to that when I said humans are more precise. So, again it was a matter of expression and there is nothing different between what lignator is saying from my opinion. Cindy has said it all for us.

I have more expensive tools listed on my web site, but believe me I sell lots of less expensive tools as well. It's just that more expensive tools attracts attention, so I have them up:wink: And like Wille said, yes I do recommend $300 plane over $3000 (at least to most of the people including myself), but not $25 plane:D

I never believe that just by being rich (ie. able to buy expensive equipments, not just tools but anything) makes one great, BUT great things will definitely aid you to become better. That's why they are "great things", and great things not necessarily have to be expensive either.

So you all, whenever you are in need of beautiful expensive or less expensive J tools, you now know where to go:2tsup:

Hahaha~~~~~~~~~

Lastly, I watched that gun making film Schtoo.... Amazing.
You have to hijac once in a while, mate:)

See y'all

[silentC]

I see my statement has created a bit of topic of conversation
For me, this is what it's all about. We all have our opinions and we find out how well formed they are when we debate the opposing view. I have already learned something in just half an hour.

I would like to say, "with ugly tools like so many of us have to" is not always so.
My point here is that most of us are limited to choosing tools that serve the purpose. Only the lucky ones can choose the ones that look good too.

[silentC]

I think there are too many what I call " tool snobs" around who are more concerned with name, appearance and price of a tool
Should I confess my Lee Valley LA block plane has rust on it? It rapidly went from "show pony" to "user"... :wink:


my $ 3.00 block plane from Bunnings is still the one I use the most
Heathen!!

[lignator]

Hi Schtoo,
Thanks for the link to the Holland and Holland video. Amazing craftsmanship indeed. I'm afraid to ask how much they cost. But I'm sure they are worth it.
BTW, have you seen this video on J blacksmiths? No where near as nice as the H&H production, and spoken only in Japanese.
http://www.sanjo-kogyokai.or.jp/section00_e.htm

[Groggy]

This thread has some great links, I suggest others follow them too, great stuff!

[lignator]

Hi Soatoz,

Thanks for your advice on my fukure. The vendor that sold me the chisel has agreed to credit my account and told me to keep the chisel, so I am very satisfied with the deal.

I have your site bookmarked, and check it almost daily. My birthday is coming up soon, so I must start preparing SWMBO for the sticker shock of a few Tasai chisels. The Michi Tasai dovetail nomi’s look like they would make a fine addition to my J tool arsenal.

One more question – I noticed your site and other J tool sites have been selling old unused stock from the 90’s and even 80’s. Where is all this old stock coming from? Why wasn’t it sold until now?

Thanks!

[willie]

Thanks SilentC, for letting it pass due to my obviously delicate mood.


Thanks for the Holland and Holland link Schtoo. I laarvve their stuff. (BTW lignator, I think you are looking at a starting price of 40,000 USD a pair. Not sure if I'm outdated here but it's in the ball park.)

As an aside, I first heard the word "truculent" when Muhammed Ali was accused of being so, by (reporter) Howard Cossel.
he replied "Whatever truculent means, if it's good then I'm it"

[Shedhand]

I've seen the Holland and Holland video before and I have to say that, though I'm not a fan of guns, if I had a lazy 40grand I'd buy a bespoke Holland and Holland tomorrow. To me they are the epitome of form and function. Almost spiritual. The same reason I bought my set of J chisels form Soatoz. Thanks for all the links here. :2tsup:

[Shedhand]

Thanks for letting it pass due to my obvious delicate mood.

[quote=silentC;507868]

Thanks for the Holland and Holland link Schtoo. I laarvve their stuff.

As an aside, I first heard the word "truculent" when Muhammed Ali was accused of being so, by (reporter) Howard Cossel.
he replied "Whatever truculent means, if it's good then I'm it"I've never lent my truck to anyone.:D

[silentC]

Here is a different perspective worded better than I could manage:

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showpost.php?p=507987&postcount=13

[soatoz]

Hi Soatoz,

Thanks for your advice on my fukure. The vendor that sold me the chisel has agreed to credit my account and told me to keep the chisel, so I am very satisfied with the deal.



I told you you are lucky! I guess I don't have to mention this, but be careful not to hit too hard when the delaminated part comes close to the edge. The edge might fall off all of a sudden and damage your work.



I have your site bookmarked, and check it almost daily.


If this was in my "customers feedback" section it'll sound made up enough right? But check this out, one of my best friend wrote me the other day "I check your web site at least ten times a day!" hahaha, now THAT sounds fake.:D



My birthday is coming up soon, so I must start preparing SWMBO for the sticker shock of a few Tasai chisels. The Michi Tasai dovetail nomi’s look like they would make a fine addition to my J tool arsenal.


You bet! Michio's work is incredibly fine. I have asked couple of blacksmiths including very famous Hidari Hisasaku from Tokyo, but so far Michio is the only person who can comply with that design. Kunikei is now working on it, but he asked me so many times how it is designed.



One more question – I noticed your site and other J tool sites have been selling old unused stock from the 90’s and even 80’s. Where is all this old stock coming from? Why wasn’t it sold until now?


Because they are from old tool shops from the country side, where not many customers visit. And when the shop goes out of business these tools are sold for very reduced price. Or a stock that's piled up in the backroom by the grandfather of the shop master and when the shop master cleans the back room he finds old tools covered with dust.And since most of these tools are dusty and old looking, you'd have to really know what's gem and what's stone. Have you read my Masanari chisels link? It's kind of like that.

I don't know about the other store, but this is the case with me.

Oh, speaking of Masanari, SilentC if you are keen on Japanees chiesls try Masanari! These are great although the price is reasobale enough (or isn't it? $80 for 36mm) It feels as though it's an alloy but definitely gets sharper and easier to sharpen. My friend who found this is saying it is likely to be White Steel #2, but I am betting it is White Steel #1. I'll find this out soon.

[silentC]

Sorry but at the moment even $80 is a lot for one chisel for me. The last chisel I bought was $5 at the local market. Titan. Not Japanese but a good Aussie brand :wink:

[soatoz]

Sorry but at the moment even $80 is a lot for one chisel for me. The last chisel I bought was $5 at the local market. Titan. Not Japanese but a good Aussie brand :wink:

5 bucks for a chisel!? Ma~~n how could that be possible... I guess you are... what's the word... serendipity? person.

BTW, did you see the Chiyozuru Korehide kiridashi knife on sale thread (hahaha, I wanna hear your coment on that one mate)? In it another member showed us a $5 (was it?) kiridashi knife, and it looked totally fine. Laminated stuff....

And the post by Derek, well, that's really what I'm talking about, when I say beauty! Derek you are THE MAN mate.

And again, that gun making film posted by Schtoo.... It's really amazing. I want one even though I don't know how to use it.

[silentC]

5 bucks for a chisel!? Ma~~n how could that be possible...
Because the guy who sold it to me didn't know that it was a diamond in the rough!

[willie]

And again, that gun making film posted by Schtoo.... It's really amazing. I want one even though I don't know how to use it.

I'll help you with using it Soatoz. I even have a book on them. Not just Holland and Holland but on what makes a "London Best" shotgun. Very interesting reading. Especially the sections on making the (walnut) stocks and the barrels. Of course I make do with a Remington and a Browning but anyway. Some might say that my ducks are just as dead as the H and H ones and I'd have to agree. (but where's the love? hmmmm.)

[Clinton1]

A guess a fukure occurs when someone reads a post on a forum, responds, a few unloving words are said to and fro... then we all work out that we actually agree.
:D

So,
To me, you are talking about being able to see beauty in things.
A life without the ability to see beauty is a life that has something missing.
I agree. :wink:

[Jim Blauvelt]

Yes all very Zen.

Beauty is only skin deep.

Ah but ugly is to the bone.

Oh yeh and Ichihiro is forever:)

Jim

[Studley 2436]

My understanding of Japanese tools is that they place function first. Compare any Japanese plane to a Gordon with it's polished finish. The Gordon is pretty for sure and a fine tool but it is being marketed a bit differently to the Japanese ones.

Studley