Query: how to burn a line

[rsser]

I want to burn a couple of lines near the rim of a 30cm bowl.

Have heard of and tried, without success:

* laminate: pulled a bit of laminex off an old kitchen bench; got some browning from the backing on the plakky but it's really just a smudge

* braided stainless wire: it's hard to get enough pressure given the diameter of the piece, and the wire tends to wander

Any other possibilities would be welcome,

TIA,

[Skew ChiDAMN!!]

Have you run across that 'orrible waxy green chaiwanese sandpaper that breaks up the moment that you use it? I find that it works well for burning lines, used in the same way as laminate... but laminate works for me too. :shrug:

[Skewpid]

Back of a hacksaw blade.

Easy peasy:2tsup:

[Gil Jones]

Hi Ern,
I have found that stranded wire tends to cut into the wood. I usually make friction burned lines with .020", .032", .041", and .060" stainless steel aircraft safety wire...and it works good when I secure the ends to short chunks of .500" dowels. Also have used .060" monel wire, and solid copper electrical wire. Only trouble with the copper is that it carries away the heat too fast. Never tried this, but saw a turner using stainless steel wire attached to the "Y" of a slingshot, and it seemed to work well. I generally cut a very shallow "V" where I want the burned line to be if it is difficult to keep the wire still in one spot. Luck with your burn lines.

[rsser]

Thanks guys.

Skew, no, haven't had the pleasure. That'll teach me for spending up big on the Swiss stuff.

Skewpid, ok, off to try it.

(Scotch finger biks ... presumably made from deeed Sassanachs?).

[rsser]

Thanks Gil.

Seems our posts crossed.

[reeves]

Rsser, i use old guitar strings but new ones will do. Acoustic bronze is th best but nay kind of wound ones with winding or slightly serated marks will do. They come in different gauge sizes and do an excellent job, in fact nothings works like they do.

If you dont play or dont wanna buy new ones you might need to find an old guitarist with discarded strings or a guitar shop with cheap ones..

for the bigger bowl yrll need to make a small intent with yr skew chisel, probably use a thicker string like the lower E, about 50 guage, speed up the lathe a little and hold it tight across the groove, after a few seconds it will start smoking and wulla! burnt line...

cheers
john

[Barry Hicks]

Like Skewpid says, the back of a hacksaw blade does the job nicely. You can even turn the blade over in the frame to give you something to hold. A fine cut with the point of the skew will give you something keep the saw blade tracking straight.

[rsser]

Thanks again guys.

What's in the shed will have to do. So first, hacksaw, then groove and whatever.

It's a beaut piece of DJ's figured redgum with sap lines, worm holes and checks all over the shop. Rustic is the go.

[DJ’s Timber]

I use MIG wire out of my welder, does the job beautifully and really gets smoking with enough pressure

[rsser]

Well I cut a groove with a skew and backed up a hacksaw blade into it. No result. (Redgum!). Reversed the blade to open the groove up a bit and yep, it did some shredding.

Tried to clean it up the the skew and got the usual result with my level of skill with this tool :(

Cleaned that up with a spindle gouge and reverted to the tried and true, and available, and coloured the groove with black felt tipped pen.

Looks adequate.

Thanks brains trust :2tsup:

[WillyInBris]

Yep tip of the Skew works for me, make a grove then place the wire in grove works very well.

Thanks Gil Making a Bow wire holder is first on my list for the morning as I keep burning myself, every bloody time I use the wire :)

[reeves]

Well I cut a groove with a skew and backed up a hacksaw blade into it. No result. (Redgum!). Reversed the blade to open the groove up a bit and yep, it did some shredding.

Tried to clean it up the the skew and got the usual result with my level of skill with this tool :(

Cleaned that up with a spindle gouge and reverted to the tried and true, and available, and coloured the groove with black felt tipped pen.

Looks adequate.

Thanks brains trust

hahah felt pen, Rsser Rsser Rsser ;-) yes redgum is pretty hard and different woods take the burn in different ways, maybe i should send you some guitar strings Ern does the job every time, do you know any guitar players in yr neighbourhood?

interesting about the welding rod, i have found a raised ridge and fine old sandpaper will burn..

[rsser]

Well somewhere in the shed I have some strings for a Chinese hammer dulcimer that I got in Beijing along with the instrument in the year the Great Helmsman died. Will have to go digging.

[powderpost]

I find the tip of the skew or parting took on its side for a small groove then ordinary galvanised tie wire does the job for me. Probably some on the fence outside... Best to use a handle on each end of the wire too.
Jim

[reeves]

Well somewhere in the shed I have some strings for a Chinese hammer dulcimer that I got in Beijing along with the instrument in the year the Great Helmsman died. Will have to go digging.

might work depending on whether they are wound strings or not, from memory a dulcimer uses maybe unwound strings , maybe 1 wound one on the lower string....u need the wound ones..

the only thing watch out for is holding ends of the string fairly tight so the wood cant grab it spin it around the work, more of a problem on thin spindles but i had a nasty experience one day where this happened and whipped me across the arm and face at 2000 rpm, only drew a little blood but i wouldnt want anyone to repeat it ;-)

who was the great Helmsman ?

[joe greiner]

For smaller diameters in particular, the highest speed available (or the highest that you dare) is generally best. Key to burning is surface speed, after all. The slingshot sounds like a great idea; thanks, Gil. I suppose a coping saw / fret saw or a hacksaw would also work well as a holder, like Barry suggests.

I think I'd avoid flat-wound electric guitar strings, as too easy to dislodge the thin winding; round-wound probably OK.

Joe

[Chesand]

Piano wire works well also if you can find a piano tuner to ask for some.
I have 2 lengths of different diameters and have put a wooden handle on each end.

[ticklingmedusa]

Ern, one more idea if you havent tried it yet would be to increase the speedto around 2000 rpms and push harder.I use a skew-made groove most of the time and lots of pressure.tm

[rsser]

This is what I was trying. Designed for cutting PVC pipe in awkward places.

A slingshot mount would help increase the pressure I imagine.

[Cliff Rogers]

Hey Ern, try using an offcut of the redgum sharpened to a point.
Make the groove with a tool, skew, parting tool on its side etc & then push the pointy bit of wood into the groove & hold it there til it burns.

[Sprog]

Steel fishing trace works well

[rsser]

Thanks again guys.

The job's done but the thread is bookmarked for next time.

DJ's bit of redgum has had me bouncing around all afternoon on the end of the Proforme handle. Thankfully the worm holes mean I can call it rustic and not sweat too much about the craftsmanship. Will post a pic after she's slurped some DO.

John, the Great Helmsman was Mao. 70% good socialist they now describe him as.
[PS, the wormy blank was my choice btw, not DJ's]

[Rance]

Reversed the blade to open the groove up a bit and yep, it did some shredding.

rsser, aren't you supposed to try something you've never done before on a piece of scrap before you bugger up your fine piece? Felt tipped pen? Clever!

I tried the formica thing on a piece of scrap with varried results. Will try the guitar string (with handles of course). Picture hanging wire sounds like it might work well.

Note to all: I know we are all grown ups here. I'm normally not the type to caution, but if using wire or such, it would seem obvious that you should NOT wrap the wire around your finger for holding the wire. This has the potential of slicing your finger clean off, should the wire get caught in the piece. Makes for a bad day. rsser, your PVC wire with loop ends was meant for low speed work. I'd be afraid that a lathe could turn that tool into something nasty. YMMV. :)

Rance

[reeves]

Rance, ye sits best not to wrap the wire round yr fingers, the problem i had that day was that the loose ends got wrapped around the work and took off. I have used this technique a lot and now i hold the guitar string over the end of my fingers and close tot he work, supporting it and make sure i keep the loose end well out of the way. It works better holding it close, burns better and i have better control over the burn. there have been no problems with this for some time.

Yes piano string would be as good as guitar ones, possibly better as they are longer have different sizes etc.

As for the flat wound vs round wound thing, the rougher the better for grip and ease of burn. The only string degradation i have noticed is that after many dozens of burns they can become a bit smooth with the burnoff blackening the string.

[rsser]

Rance, yep, trial and error is a good idea. Happens I've become pretty good at recovering from error. Any case that was bowl no. nnnnn, or so it feels.

And thanks for the headsup; the thing was too long to use the handles in any case and I know about lathes and what they can wind up and wind off :-

[rodent]

rsser give me a line ill grab skew and we ill drop over i just dont know wy it isnt working for you ?

[robynmau]

Hi Ern

I too use discarded guitar strings, but I've put little wood plugs on the end, so I don't damage my paws :-

I put the wire where I want the burn, starting pretty much straight out and then pull down towards the lathe at both ends. The pull and lathe speed determines how deep and how black.

Cheers

Robynmau

[ptc]

Ern
did wendy give you permission
to use the term "Rustic" !
I use old binding wire.

[rsser]

This is the bowl. A cleaner top groove would have given a better result with the felt tip pen but I can live with it.

Thanks for the offer Rodent.

Peter, any more bowls like this and I'll have to license the term.

[Edit: 25 x 8 cm]

[DJ’s Timber]

I like it Ern, you have done that piece justice. Good form and the rim looks just right

[ptc]

Looks good to me.
"any more bowls like this and I'll have to license the term."
how about " home spun " or "Rural".
Then you will not need a license.

[Gil Jones]

Nice looking bowl, Ern!

[thostorey]

All I've read works well on the outside of a piece. Now how do you burn a line on the 'inside' of a bowl. I think formica (sp) or the other counter top stuff sharpened to a point?

Tom

[reeves]

hey nice bowl Ern, love the grain and texture is that redgum ?

the lines look ok from here, sometimes a blunt skew chisel makes a good burn.
I hope you can try some wound guitar or piano strings soon.

BTW Ray picked up some turning chunks the other day but i'll make sure i put some figured block aside for you if you wanna cover postage about 10 kilos might be nice but LMK if you want more, I think i can send em COD.

cheeeeeeers
john

[joe greiner]

Good work, Ern. Very crisp treatment of a rough piece of timber; nice combination & contrast.

Tom, regarding burning lines on the interior or face (surface more or less perpendicular to the lathe axis): I reckon the most effective tool would be a dental pick with a hooked end. Place the tool rest as close as possible to the wood surface, but with a slight gap for tool approach. Set the pick with the hook down, and let the outside of the elbow ride on the timber. Another possibility is a very worn flat screwdriver blade, i.e. rounded edges. Round end of a hacksaw blade might be a bit scary, but less so if held in a cantilever blade holder (not sure if they have a specific name; I hope you know what I mean.) I'd hesitate to use a blunted tip of a skew chisel after expending previous effort to make it sharp. Experiments with these techniques pending.

The dental pick elbow could also be very effective on a non-cyclindrical outside surface, e.g. the conical part of a turning. Previously, I've used the wire with end handles, but approach must be perpendicular to the surface, not perpendicular to the lathe axis which lets the wire skid to an equilibrium position. Owing to the biased tangents, this can produce a fuzzy boundary to the burn line, especially if done without a pre-cut groove. Can be relieved somewhat by sanding the parent surface.

Joe

[Leon]

Use MIG wire held tight in a hack saw. Works well.

[hughie]

Ern,

Nice one! The burned lines go well as they stand with the overall finish and style of the bowl.

They get my vote :2tsup:

[Rance]

Ern,

VERY nice work. I like the rustic.



...on the 'inside' of a bowl. I think formica (sp) or the other counter top stuff sharpened to a point?

Tom, I tried formica (on the outside). I think you are headed in the right direction. However, my experience using formica showed that it can quickly melt at the temps we need to burn. You have the right idea but I'd suggest a piece of metal so you don't get the melting.

Dental pic idea could be emulated using a curved piece of stiff piano wire. Good ideas from everyone. Keep 'em coming.

My 2c.

[rsser]

Thanks for all the feedback folks.

Yep, it's redgum John. Happily not as rock hard as some out there.

Joe, the wire sliding off the shoulder was one of the problems that prompted the query - you're quite right. But I didn't then try it within a groove.

Lots of good ideas to try out. Thanks again.

[rsser]

rsser give me a line ill grab skew and we ill drop over i just dont know wy it isnt working for you ?

Just to return to this generous offer ...

I'm wondering whether folks mightn't like to come to another one day turning event. (Takes deep breath) ... maybe something like Bernie Kiyabu's annual days.

The guts of it: a big lump of interesting wood is put on the lathe and everybody gets a go turning. There's a raffle and the winner gets to take the result home. Barbie plus beer plus b*llshit. If the numbers are OK, wood and gear suppliers are asked if they'd like to hawk their wares.

I'd be happy to host and the Stubby could get a good workout. My preference is to raise funds for the Salvo's or Red Cross so I'd be asking for a donation of the timber or a serious discount.

What do you think?

[Cliff Rogers]

......What do you think?
I'd be in that, shame about the distance. :C

[rsser]

Jetstar is your friend ;-} Be good to 'catchya' in the flesh so to speak Cliff. Got floor space for an overnighter.

Or you could fund a proxy.

Shaping up as a fundraiser.

[rsser]

promoted the post to a new thread btw

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=49793

[docusk]

I make the tiniest line with a skew chisel on it's edge and then I use a piece of resistance wire about18" t0 2' long I then make a loop on each end, put a 3/16" dowel in each loop and twist till they are secure and hey presto, there's your line burner. You might find an electonics Hobbyist from whom you might be able to cadge a length, you might also have a transformer winding firm who will help or at worst, strip out an old transformer. Old fashioned 'Eureka wire' is the best since, being resistance wire has a high temperature tolerance 'cos it gets mighty hot when you are using it. You wouldn't like to pick it up by the centre I promise you!

I could supply just a few UK turners if they contact me with an e-mail address through which I can get in touch directly (that's if the moderator allows that sort of thing?)
docusk

[Cliff Rogers]

Resistance wire is AKA nicrome out here.... not something that is used much any longer.
Some of the old TV & radio techs would still have some but most of them shut down since GST came along.

[scooter]

Think I heard that Tandy, Jaycar or Dick Smith carry Nichrome wire??

[Rance]

...I could supply just a few UK turners if they contact me with an e-mail address through which I can get in touch directly...

And for those outside OZ, let me know and I'l EMAIL you a length of wire. Of course that would require you EMAIL me a quarter to cover postage. ROTF.

Nicrome wire sources: Try a local RC plane hobbiest or Hobby shop. They use nicrome wire for cutting foam wings.

[littlebuddha]

Hi i play guitar, shame of it is i play badly. Good thing is i get to us the wires i break and make up with a couple bits of wood wey presto one or more wire burners. why throw a broken string away, recycle.

[docusk]

I thought I posted this earlier in the week but it obviously didnt get through. Yer tis again.
I use strong resistance wire from a reel I bought at a radio hams boot sale years back. I have 2 sorts; plain silver steel resistance wire and strong black 'Eureka' resistance wire which withstands heat better.
I use a length about 18" to 2' long and with each end fastened with a good twist to a couple of 3/16" dowel rods, you have a cheese wire or, better still, a burning wire. make a small "V" with a skew chisel held vertical to the workpiece and then take the wire and hold it in the groove till it starts to smoke. (After 1st July in Britain it will be illegal to do this sort of thing in public places) Ouch, sorry Brits.
Can't do much for the overseas folk but if UK based turners let me have a private message, I'll send them a length or two if I get an SAE. I only have a limited supply but it's just struck me that there are Amateur Radio boot sales across the country/world and you might get a supply from there.
Well, at least I tried.
Watch this space.
docusk

ps, it did get through but not as we know it Jim.

[joe greiner]

I wouldn't get overly exercised about exact wire materials. More important is availability. I'm currently using 0.020" stainless steel, 0.050" aluminium electric fence wire, and 12AWG (0.078") copper electric wire (insulation stripped). The SS is mounted on a couple dowel handles; for the other two I use small vice-grip pliers. I got all of these at garage sales; the ss is usually sold at fishing-tackle shops.

Haven't tried them yet, but I sorta expect braided picture-hanging wire and wound guitar or piano wire would cut more than burn.

I just posted an experiment with the dental pick on all available surfaces of a small bowl - worked better than I expected : http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=49961

Joe

[littlebuddha]

I wouldn't get overly exercised about exact wire materials. More important is availability. I'm currently using 0.020" stainless steel, 0.050" aluminium electric fence wire, and 12AWG (0.078") copper electric wire (insulation stripped). The SS is mounted on a couple dowel handles; for the other two I use small vice-grip pliers. I got all of these at garage sales; the ss is usually sold at fishing-tackle shops.

Haven't tried them yet, but I sorta expect braided picture-hanging wire and wound guitar or piano wire would cut more than burn.

I just posted an experiment with the dental pick on all available surfaces of a small bowl - worked better than I expected : http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=49961

Joe

Not all string on a guitar are wire wound, i would have though a person could work out what string you might use for burning your turning. wire guitar strings are perfect i have great results, and you have a few gauges for fine to a little thiker depending on what detail you want. Try before you put something down. very close minded, we learn nothing if thats the way something is taken.

[Rance]

Not all string on a guitar are wire wound, i would have though a person could work out what string you might use for burning your turning. wire guitar strings are perfect i have great results, and you have a few gauges for fine to a little thiker depending on what detail you want. Try before you put something down. very close minded, we learn nothing if thats the way something is taken.

Great points LB. I'm gonna have to try those. I think I'll try to hold them real tight so as I can play Johnny Cash-Ring Of Fire. And I'd expect you could get used strings for a song.

Update on using formica : I tried it again today. The ones I am using are triangle pieces, longest side maybe 6-8" long. When using it, this time I didn't cut the groove as deep in my turning before the burning. I also kept the formica constantly moving across the wood. It worked like a charm. I take back all the bad things I said about using formica. :)

Rance (the punster)

[joe greiner]

Try before you put something down. very close minded, we learn nothing if thats the way something is taken.

Nah, Buddha, not putting anything down. I just stepped on a banana peel at the notion of mailing wire hither and yon (even by e-mail!). No question guitar strings or piano strings provide high strength as well as a variety of sizes for as much detail as you'd like.

Joe